Gene-Seed Discussion

[Ferrata]

I have written these short articles on seven of the nine Loyalist Legions. I have left the Space Wolves out as their gene-seed is not used to create new chapters, and Blood Angels as its usage is even rarer than that of the Dark Angels, it will also take quite a low of putting together. Both will get one done, but I thought it was important to complete the used gene-seeds. The basic format is -

 

Chapter

"Quotes from the Index Astartes"

 

Usage: How often the gene-seed is used

 

Mutations: What mutations are inherent in the gene-seed

 

Using the Chapters Gene-seed:

 

What will or will not be inherited by a successor chapter.

 

Further Mutation:

 

Possible routes of mutation for the gene-seed. Mostly used for Cursed Founding chapters or plot hooks.

 

Please not, these are not the final versions, just the basic leg work for you all to discuss from. So any other traits which you think might be gene-seed related or traits which sometimes are carried over which shouldn't be (i.e. Hunting the Fallen)

 

 

Dark Angels

 

[Tubal]

Wasn't the Salamander's lower initiative (in the old IA) explained by the high gravity of the world? The same reason they don't use many skimmers.

I could be mistaken though :mellow:

[Ferrata]

That was possible reason for the slow reflexes. One is the high grav world, another is the gene-seed. You are correct why they don't use skimmers and jump packs though.

 

Ferrata

[Nash Trickster]

There's something you missed about Imperial Fist geneseed: the Soul Drinkers present a mutation of the Omophagea which the other 2nd founding chapters using the genes of Rogal Dorn do not... This could be one more clue that the geneseed isn't that stable (or proof that Daemon Prince Abraxes had been "toying" with the Soul Drinkers for much longer than suspected) :mellow:

[Ferrata]

I decided to leave the Soul Drinkers out as they are not a Second Founding Chapter. Ben Counter (I believe) changed this section of the fluff, to make his Soul Drinkers seem "cooler".

 

Ferrata

[Nash Trickster]

If it's a well-thought decision then nevermind what I said... Just wanted to make sure it wasn't just an omission :mellow:

[Darrell]

Are you sure about the White Scars having a mutation in the geneseed that makes them hungry for war? The Index Astartes seems to hint that, in the case of the White Scars, their warmongering is a result of the people from the Steppes (Which become their recruits and their Space Marines). But it doesn't specifically say either way:

 

"Whether such incidents are as a result of some inherent flaw in the White Scars' genetic material or came about after the integration of the tribesmen is unknown, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is eager to know which."

 

One support of the tribesmen idea is that (from my knowledge) there are no reports of any successors being involved in anything like the "Red Highway Massacre".

 

Of course, it also says the White Scars genome inherited their wild savagery...hrm.

[Ferrata]

However, with the introduction of genetic material from the steppes tribesmen, the genome seems to have inherited their wild savagery and thirst for war

 

This leads me to believe that the two traits listed above [savagery and war-thirst] have became part of the genetic make up of the White Scars, thus their gene-seed. It seems that continual exposure to the genetic material of the tribesmen has diluted the gene-seed. Alternatively, this could have been done on purpose to make the marines more like the tribesmen.

 

The White Scar successor Chapters, the Rampagers, Marauders, Destroyers and the Storm Lords are all equally ferocious

 

Which leads me to believe that it has been passed on. But these are all Second Founding chapters so they could have been passed on via nurture over genetic material.

 

Ferrata

[Darrell]

I can see your point, it just seems to me that the source of ferocity could very well be either or. I honestly couldn't really tell you which I believe, as a lot of the wording is either vague, or they hint one way then hint another.

 

On the one hand it says they inherited their ferocity, and that their successors are as equally ferocious (But as you said, they were 2nd founding so it could easily be the bloody assault training stuck with them), but then it goes on to say that it's really up in the air as far as the Adeptus Mechanicus is concerned (And since the White Scars would be submitting geneseed to them for study and use, it would seem that they would have found a mutation).

 

Do you think it might be possible to add something along those lines to the paragraph dealing with their geneseed? It very well could be that their geneseed is mutated, I just think it sort of adds to the feeling of the White Scars that you're not really sure WHY they're so bloodthirsty.

 

But regardless of why they are, you definitely do not want to be on the wrong end of a White Scars bike assault. ;)

[Spinsane]

On the one hand it says they inherited their ferocity, and that their successors are as equally ferocious (But as you said, they were 2nd founding so it could easily be the bloody assault training stuck with them), but then it goes on to say that it's really up in the air as far as the Adeptus Mechanicus is concerned (And since the White Scars would be submitting geneseed to them for study and use, it would seem that they would have found a mutation).

Found a mutation? I was always under the impression that geneseed did not contain only the information necessary to create the different organs, but also a genetic impression (althout diluted somewhat) of the original primarch. Now if, for example, ferocity, zeal, duty or whatever was somewhat inscribed by the Emperor on a Primarch's genetic makeup, the presence of said trait on the geneseed wouldn't be a mutation per see, but be part of the original genetic imprint of said Primarch. They'd never see anything wrong, even though the trait IS present.

 

They can't mix geneseed because of incompatibility, so we can safely assume that an UM's Ossmodula or Biscopea is different from a DA's, otherwise they could mix the organs freely (and we know this doesn't work), and the difference could explain some trait of character that would be physically ingrained into the marine...

[Tubal]

Geneseed contains the genetic information to grow the new organs a new recruit is implanted with, nothing else. Many of the organs affect hormone production and such so behaviour is definately affected by it though things like the Iron Hands fixation on cybernetics is a cultural thing, IMO, possibly because of faulty indoctrination.

Also, they probably can mix geneseed as it's rumored to have happened during the cursed founding (Black Dragons, Lamenters etc) but it causes as many problems as it solves apparently.

[Rogue Trader]

However, with the introduction of genetic material from the steppes tribesmen, the genome seems to have inherited their wild savagery and thirst for war

 

This leads me to believe that the two traits listed above [savagery and war-thirst] have became part of the genetic make up of the White Scars, thus their gene-seed. It seems that continual exposure to the genetic material of the tribesmen has diluted the gene-seed. Alternatively, this could have been done on purpose to make the marines more like the tribesmen.

I think it's a somewhat misleading statement, to be honest. Maybe I just read it differently - I read it to say that it was the combination of the human genetic material with the geneseed that inherits the ferocity, not the geneseed itself that does. Your intepretation of it implies that human DNA is capable of changing Primarch DNA, which frankly, I would think is somewhat unlikely...

 

I personally think it's unwise to say that any chapter that uses WS geneseed will automatically display the same ferocity as the original Legion/Chapter. :ph34r:

[refuse]

What if we propose?

 

That there are "phases" that create the final marine.

 

These phases may impact the "resultant" marine, in a controlled and often reproduceable fashion.

 

Let

[Darrell]

Hope I didn't accidentally hijack your thread, Ferrata. I only meant to make a small observation, didn't mean to completely change the topic of the thread. :wub:

 

I do want you to know you did an awesome job with that project, and I think it will help a lot of people who have trouble picking out a geneseed for their Chapter (Like myself), and I think it might be a good idea to sticky it with the other resources at the top of this page. Once you're all done with it, of course. :ph34r:

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your information about this topic!

[Ferrata]

Hope I didn't accidentally hijack your thread, Ferrata. I only meant to make a small observation, didn't mean to completely change the topic of the thread

No Problem, at least we are discussing something ^_^

 

RT, I understant what your saying and it does cause quite the confusion. While it does seem wierd that normal human DNA could interfere with the gene-seed, it also seems wierd that if they where using the same gene-stock for along amount of time (from the discovery of Khan to the 2nd Founding) then it would seem wierd that the human DNA did not have an effect of the gene-seed.

 

I like REFUSE's idea about gene-seed not actually being the single physical object, but the object and a series of treatments required for that seed. If certain methods only work with each gene-seed and mixing method and seed leads to such things as the Cursed Founding, then it would be possible for similar traits to be passed on.

 

More thinking is required.

 

Ferrata

[Ferrata]

Just been playing with an alternative format for the final product, something a little more stream lined.

 

Primarch: Lion El

[Race Bannon]

I liked the first format but the new format is extremely helpful as well. If I had to choose then go with the latter. :lol:

[Ferrata]

The first one was more suited to the discussion, having the quotes I used and more fluffed. The second one is hopefully suited for a rough guide to gene-seeds if your not sure which one you want :lol:

 

The second version looks great! If maybe you could work the "Future Mutations" portion of the first list into the second (I liked the potential plot hooks), then it would be perfect. Would probably go under the "Possible Mutations" section?

I'm going leave the "Possible Mutations" to traits which are certainly in the gene-seed (i.e Salamander Slowness, White Scars savagery). I think I will include the "Further Mutations" section though.

 

Ferrata

[Darrell]

The second version looks great! If maybe you could work the "Future Mutations" portion of the first list into the second (I liked the potential plot hooks), then it would be perfect. Would probably go under the "Possible Mutations" section?

 

This will definitely help out a lot of people new to DIY. :lol:

 

Edit:

 

Yes, the first would probably be a lot more helpful to those more knowledged about the WH40K universe, or accustomed to DIY chapters. Both are handy to have either way.

[Commissar Molotov]

Some of the older fluff states that out of the Black Templars, Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists, only the Imperial Fists had the lack of organs, thus the degeneration of the gene-seed happened after the Heresy (possibly during the Iron Cage incident). Later fluff changed this to both the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists have the degeneration. This could be due to the resupply of gene-seed after the Ryan

[Ferrata]

Which older fluff in particular? Could you quote a reference for this, Ferrata?

I'm not sure, it's something I picked up off Bro-T when I was writting the Imperial Castellan article. I can remember it, as I went on to make my Ryann's World theory and posted some time after September (so it was lost in the crash I believe). I'll go check. You will have to ask one of the older mods to tell you which articles this was in though.

 

Ferrata

[Rogue Trader]

Inheritance: A Successor Chapter will inherit no traits from their Parent gene-seed.

I'd suggest dropping this, or changing the word 'traits', given that it has a rule connotation under 4th ed.

[Rogue Trader]

I'd also take issue with the 'Further Mutation' sections - in every case it's pure speculation, and there's really no basis in the fluff for comments such as:

 

White Scars

Further Mutation:

 

The savage nature of the White Scar and their successors could lead to a downfall to a chapter. If this trait was amplified, it could lead to a similar attitude to battle usually linked with the Flesh Tearers, Wolfen or Khornate armies.

 

And the fact that the Dorn geneseed has been stable for 10,000 years refutes:

Imperial Fists

Further Mutation:

 

As the gene-seed of the Imperial Fist’s has already degenerated to lose two of the Space Marine organs it is possible that the gene-seed is unstable and is slowly mutating.

especially given that you qute the IA article as saying the 'gene-seed is very stable and has never exhibited signs of mutation.'

[Ferrata]

I'd suggest dropping this, or changing the word 'traits', given that it has a rule connotation under 4th ed.

*bangs head on keyboard*

 

Yeah, totally agree, I will change it to characteristic as that sonds better anyway :rolleyes:

 

On the IF issue, I will correct it in the next version

 

Ferrata

[Tubal]

You could change "Further Mutation" to something like "Possible Developments" or something. Some chapters have more extreme versions of their parent chapter's mutations. The Flesh Tearers have more black rage than the Blood Angels (or handles it worse), the Wolf Brothers were eradicated due to mutation (my own theory is that the wulfen gene went haywire) etc.