Telveryon

Might I make a suggestion? You might wish to consider Salmanders gene-seed, they're quite dwarfen in their behavior with their emphasis on self reliance, self sacrifice and also a good dose of smiting craftsmanship. This will get around the "already-far-too-large pile of DIY Dorn Successors" (there aren't nearly enough Salamanders successors around) problem while allowing you to make them as dwarven or un-dwarven as you like!

I disagree with Octavulg on the first point, while the Old Exonerators idea eats up quite a bit of space it's far too cool an idea, in my opinion, to drop. What can be done is to gloss over it. What you have in the compressed version is perfect, just reword it to sound better and you're done. And other good thing about this idea is that it can be used as either a starting point or an enforcement for the whole idea that the Humanity is too weak, the new chapter might chalk up the demise of the old one to it. (If you're going to use this concept, I'd recommend you stick it in the Beliefs section) As for the rest, all of those are very solid ideas. If you expand every phrase in the summery to three of four in the article you would have something rather awesome on your hands. But take great care with this part, this is where you usually careen out of control with the word count. I'd suggest you just mention who was involved and the aftermath, what actually happened should be left to the read's imagination.

First and foremost I have to say that the new version makes for a quite entertaining read. It does a better job at explaining the motivations chapter then the previous versions, but there are still a few problems. The biggest one I have to say is your command of the English language, it's too good! In several places your wording is overly complicated and detracts from the article as most readers go "Wait... What?" every other sentence. An IA is a series of facts at the end of the day and thus presenting them in a clear light is generally more important then making it look(well... read) cool. A little application of KIS would be wise. Now, onto more specific gripes. In the previous paragraph you said that the Exonerators were almost forgotten yet now you say they were recreated sooner then expected, there seems a conflict of concepts over here. You also don't don't make it clear enough that they were recreated. With the risk of repeating myself, IA are a list of facts, spelling things out rather then implying them is not something to be frowned upon (this isn't poetry after all). Now this is a perfect example of glossing over things! This bit tells more about the chapter then several paragraphs of the older variants! And where did they stumble on this particular piece of information? The wishes of the Emperor aren't clear to High Lords, yet your chapter seems to know better then men that have actually set eyes on him. By no means do I wish to imply that this is a bad concept, but it should be elaborated a bit. Ok, this went straight over my head... Why is the relevant in any way? Something is wrong with this sentence, but I can't put my finger on it... These two paragraphs add absolutely nothing to the chapter, they should be a sidebar at the very best and not part of the main article. It seems to me that this is more of a throwback to the older articles with the sole purpose of keeping a link between them. But I'd say it's not worth it. Such parts can be safely dropped in favor of elaborating other points such as the aforementioned knowledge of the Emperor's plans. And my last gripe is... Where's the rest of the article? I want to read more!

Maybe, but you put so much detail in the description of the battle that that's the last thing passes through a reader's mind. Allow me to exemplify: This part very well written and it paints a very cool mental picture, the problem is that it add bugger all to the chapter as a whole. Now that I think about it, this isn't an isolated case, it's more of an issue with your writing style as a whole. You're too much of a story teller. Being a story teller is by no means a bad thing, but in the context of writing IAs, which are for all intents and purposes lists of facts, it might more of a disadvantage then an asset. A long time ago I tried to pull of stories such as these, but I found out that I couldn't. They would sound like crap (if you'll excuse the language) and I'd get bogged down in irrelevant details. You on the other hand can pull such stories off yet you don't seem immune to getting bogged down. You know how to paint a very pretty picture, but you tend to lose sight of the greater whole but IAs are all about the bigger picture. More over if you do lose sight of the bigger picture, imagine what happens to the reader. Maybe not, but it's still one of the easiest ways of motivating just about anything. Sure, if done properly, it can be quite interesting, and the situation you are trying to build is probably one of the most suited for such an idea. But I still think that there are better ways to pull something like this off. The very first draft of the Golden Defenders used a similar idea to motivate their faithlessness. It was the first idea that got thrown out the window on the second draft and they became all the cooler for it. Now I must ask you, wouldn't it be cooler if you're Iron Angels came to the same conclusion as the Emperor through their own means rather then some hidden documents? Ummm... Weren't these two concepts the one and the same for the Emperor himself? As far as I recall, his plan was to turn humanity in a race of psykers that could use the warp safely. You're dead set on the hidden document idea aren't you? That shouldn't be all that hard, it's no like there is a shortage of ways a chapter can become extinct in the 33rnd millenium.

It seems that Apothete's nice and rather verbose approach has indeed failed. So, let's see if my blunt approach fails as well. The thing that Apothete is trying to say is: That it doesn't matter if something you writes makes sense to you, as it obviously does. What you should do is write your IA in such a manner that everybody will understand what you want to say, not just you. Because if you don't, nobody will bother to read your IA. That you should modify your IA to reflect the explanations you've made in the thread proper. Nobody will read through 3 pages of replies just to get the gist behind your chapter, it's just not worth the time. I hope the clears it up a bit

You start a bit in medias res (if you'll excuse the pretentiousness). While that's not necessarily bad in and of itself, but the I personally think it suits the descriptive nature of an IA. I'd say that this paragraph would sound better if it had a proper, bog standard IA start. It would sound as eloquent, but it would make for a better read. Don't know why, but there seems to be a bit too much detail in this battle description. I pretty sure you can shorten this to three or four lines without losing any worthwhile information. This is easily the weakest part of the article. Rediscovered documents should be up there with mysterious origins and lost in the work in the list of IA artifices that say "I can't be bothered to come up with a better idea." Come on Apothete, you're better then this! The New Man idea comes across decently enough, though I would suggest to make it a longer, more gradual process. The Polypsykana angles come across very clearly, but as I said before, it's very poorly implemented. This might actually be a good idea. You might wish to go Third Founding as marines from that age still had direct contact with the Primachs and thus might be in a better position to come in contact with the Emperor's Polypsykana ideas. It has been said time and time gain that with enough work any chapter, not matter it's gene-seed, can be molded into anything you want. Sure, it might take more work to explain why a Blood Angels successor is obsessed with bionics that an Iron Hands successor, but it can be done. If a something isn't critical, glossing over it might be a good idea, at least that how I usually do it. If that fails, I'd go for something unusual. The Ramillies can't be the only starfort available to the Imperium. Both I'd say. You could describe how the Chapter managed to get it's grubby mitts on said fleet assets and in the homeworld section you can describe them in a better detail. Ummm.... Would a gray Imperial Eagle holding a black cog do?

There is nothing conceptually wrong with this idea, I actually like the concept very much the only problem is that it doesn't derive naturally from what has been said above. Hey, this is GW pig-Lating! If they said it's Magos Biologis, then it's Magus Biologis no matter what real world languages say! Again, the concept is not flawed, but your wording seems to imply that friendly fire is quite common among space marines (which it isn't). You could say that Exonerators give their heavy weapons to their more experienced brother because they can get the most out of them. Hehehe! But threat, nobody's perfect, a few such mistakes might go by anyone.

I've re-read the whole thing, there is definite improvement and a very good read, but there are a few nitpicks that either have snuck in or I've mist the last time around. First and foremost, you haven't placed them in a founding, we can guess that it's the 23rd Founding, but not everybody knows enough about the Ghost War to hazard such a guess. Secondly: I'm sorry to say this, but this sounds a bit MISS. They have far to many naval assets for a single chapter while adding very little to the chapter as a whole. Frankly, I found the cooler when they only had a forge ship and strike cruisers. But now they have everything including the kitchen sink, there is too much bling! You really should tone it down a bit. Thirdly, the gestalt consciousness is plunk down a bit out of the blue. There is no reason behind the Exonerators creating it. And we all know that we need reasons for every quirk, don't we? I'm pretty sure it's Magos Biologis. We're talking here about supremely skilled man-tanks (to steal a word), I'm pretty sure a marine shooting one of his brothers in the back by accident would be tried for incompetence. Where's the reason for this little deviation? Have we forgotten our own guide? ;) The why is the key! It seems to me that there's allot of grating going on in a single sentence... It may be just me but this sentence seems to end a bit abruptly. These are all the nitpicks I could find, but otherwise it's an awesome piece of work!

Sorry Apothete, but you'll have to endure those compliments because we can't beat down something that's unbeatable. I missed the previous conversation... Sorry about that. Strong minds and gestalt consciousness aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. The one way I see this working is by using the gestalt consciousness as a form of test of character. Those with strong minds would learn to master the consciousness while those who's minds aren't strong enough would become subservient to it. Those who master the consciousness could become veterans, sergeants and so on while the weaker willed would be stuck as simple battlebrothers. That would be wise. If you really don't want to set a granite tight date you could simple say that the battle took place 30 years before the turn of the millenium.

I reread the article and, as always, it makes for a very good read. I must admit that there are a few sentences where I didn't get the the gist of it (please don't ask me to point them out to you as I'd have to reread the whole thing and you mus admit it's a pretty big article). There nit picks that I'd like to point out. Firstly, it would be most wise to put the Gene-seed section before the Combat Doctrine as you reference the constant communication in the latter section yet you explain it only at the end of the article in the former. Also, this constant communication could be developed eve more. Maybe it could have a side effect of suppressing individuality within a company or ever the chapter as a whole. Lastly there is the "30 years ago" without a point of reference... I don't know why, but it bothers the hell out of me.

May I forward my own two chapters? The Golden Defenders and the The Will of the Lost, formerly known as Angels Exemplar.

Two very minor nitpicks that I should have complained last time. 30 years seems a rather short time for a battle to become the stuff of legend given the fact that those that fought said battle would still be around and kicking. "Nod" sounds just a bit two informal... Other that those, and exquisite read. As for a warcry suggestion: "Steel in body, iron in will!"

Not as far as I'm concerned. My personal opinion is that it makes for an excellent read. I'm sure Ocravulg will still find a few nitpicks but then again, he's the master of nitpicking(that's why we all love him)!

The Iron Hands are not more technologically advanced then any other chapter, try using "technologically adept" or "technologically inclined". Why would space marines need research laboratories? They are the Imperium's foremost warriors, the only thing they need to know is how to bash peoples' heads in. 30 years ago to which frame of reference? If you're referring to the 41st millenium try something along the lines "some thirty years before the turn of the 41st millennium." or somesuch. Perfect spot to trim a bit, the battle is a bit too detailed for an IA. You've written the rest of the IA in a rather omniscient fashion, this bit is somewhat of a letdown, just like an open ended book. "Tactical simulator" sounds to... Modern... Maybe you could try "training arena" or somesuch. Another place you could trim a bit. While the description is most entertaining, you really don't need that mcuh detail in a IA. Watchfull eye of the Librarium or not, use of untrained psykers is still heresy, the only psykers that are allowed in the Imperium are either sanctioned or Emperor food. Space Marines by definition always employ force multipliers. Also, that's another term you might wish expunge for your otherwise excellent writing. One thing that comes across in the whole Combat Doctrine as a whole barring the last paragraph is that it's to clinical. It's more like your describing the doctrine of a modern regiment and not superhuman space knights. You might wish to be a bit more bombastic. "Closeted" seems as a very poor item to refer to a space marine. Well... Those are my two cents, I hope it helps.

Those definitely make for a more entertaining read! I'd go with them myself!