Albion de Heaven

That is my point Nurglez *splashes disinfectant around* I don't even want it to be right, and don't even play it that way. Grey Mage and I are just going through the dance to see if the RAW is really that bad.... it seems it is :P *continues splashing disinfectant around* :devil: Full quote Marshal, that was my original point ^_^

well well well You make: declarations of ICs deploying with units in reserve: False I state that unit XXX and YYY and IC are in reserve. AFTER i state that IC joins unit YYY (page 94 - reserves) declarations of units being deployed inside vehicles: False, deploy a vehicle and THAN deploy the unit inside the vehicle (or reserve both and than states that tyhe unit is in the vehicle) declarations of units outflanking, : Yes, I state that reserve them and than declare that they outflan (after eventually attaching them an IC) again page 94 Btw, I see that nobody agrees with my point and I will not force you, I will simply play as T.O. and other players use to play. I was just interestad in making this thing more clear

OK yes I see your point. But that doesn't alter the fact that in order for Shrike to confer Infiltrate upon a unit, then that unit + Shrike must deploy last AND together. You can't just plonk down a unit of [terminators] during your normal deployment phase, and then plonk Shrike down within 2" of them during the Infiltrators deployment phase, and then expect that [termy] unit to be able to infiltrate. In this instance it isn't only coherency that dictates the ability to confer Infiltrate, but the fact that they are all deployed on masse too. Or am I still missing your point (I probably am <_< )??? Cheers I What i means is that since you can't infiltrate them (with this interpretation of the rule) the shrike ability can only be used to allow them to outflank. I suppose that DV8 got my point in the closest way. Btw I only want to add that I have always played this rule in the same way you all play it and this doubt springed out a couples of days ago reading on another forum a discussion like this: the ppl started to debate and than quotes many sections from the rulebook so the topic was closed from moderators after a big flame at this point: "i join tyrant and guads as a single unit BEFORE deploying so i can deploy them in DoW" and the other factions say that they still were 2 units... than i discovered the sentence that i quoted at the beginning about the "by being deployed...." regards all and thank you for keeping the discussion so quiet :)

Not so simples, this is a very poorly worded rule, and as such causes timing issues if you follow RAW (or in this case Silly RAW). As it is now the character could join the unit in reserves, or when deployed. If this is the normal deployment there is no problem. Sadly there is no other way for a IC to join a Unit pre-game and although it seems they meant it to work the way you suggest, the wording does not support that. Shrike's unit could not be held back to Infiltrate because they don't have the USR at that time. The IC joins by being deployed with the unit , not at some time before and with deployed unit only at the 'start of the game'. We have already had a debate as to when that is. If you go by the Deployment rules on pg 92-93 "Start the Game!" is after deployment ,infiltrate and scout moves. I believe the RAI is clear, BRB pg 48 Special Rules gives the example of an IC joining a unit of infiltrater's and them losing the USR and unable to infiltrate. This implies that an IC should be able to join a unit pre-deployment. Shrike's unit should be allowed to Infiltrate, but it could cause you trouble if you aren't aware of the poor working and are up against someone who wishes to push the RAW. I agree with you with poor wording and quite agree on RAI (i'm not so sure that they wanted us infiltrate cercain units). I don't have the rulebook atm but the example on page 48 can simple means that if you join the IC to the scout in reserve that lose infiltration and can't outflank? regards

Hi Brother Isiah, you get half of my point. but what i say is that there is no rule about "stating" that an IC can be attached to an unit BEFORE being deployed. An IC is ONLY attached to a unit when he is deployed (or reserved) and DEPLOY = PUT ON TABLE now since the XXX unit that we want to attach to out IC does not have infiltrate you can deploy it in your deploy phase or you can reserve it, you cannot tell "I WILL DEPLOY THEM WITH INFILTRATOR WITH THIS IC" because they don't have "infiltrate" rule. If someone can addres me a point where it is stated that you can attach an IC to a unit BEFORE deploying them or evne if you don't deploy them and this is not the reserve rule i will be happy to change my mind (and play Shrike list i have already create B))

This is your interpretation: it would be just redundant to specify coerency in this way, simply because if he has already joined the unit he already have to be placed in coherency with other models of the unit. I interpretate that placing him next to a unit (or a unit next to him) is the requirement to have him join them.

yes, ANY unit, I used terminator as an example. This rule will not allow you to infiltrate "a unit" but will allow a joined unit of any time to outflank (since reserve rules states to declare IC joining units and thant declare how they will arrive in game) .. not so pointless ;)

They may begin the game as a unit, aslong as they are deployed in coherancy, infiltration is a type of deployment, therefore there is no confusion the only problem is that when you go to deploy infiltrator all other units have alredy to be deployed or put in reserve ;)

again, i read the rulkebook and get that to be attached he has to be deployed in coherency, so i read: "you put them on table, that put him near" otherwise we will have to define what is "deploy". I read that UNITIL he is not deployed, he is not with the squad. again maybe this is a fault of my english but it seems like this to me... so this "by being..." is the cause that has as effect to have him attached to the squad ;)

deploy means to put it on the table no? for examples if i remember correctly combact squads are used when you deploy the unit --> when they enter from reserve or when you put them on the table before starting the game. "by being deployed in coherency with them" does not mean "declaring that i will deploy them later togheter" simply because the xxx unit does not have infiltrate unit and will not gain it untill you put your IC in coherency with them on the table

I beg your pardon being so boring but since english is not my motherlanguage probably I make some translation error. I read: "by being deployed in coherency with them" = "if you deploy an IC in coherency with a unit, he joins the unit" but nowhere it states (adress me to that page/line please ;) if i miss it) that you can tell that they join BEFORE putting them on the table UNLESS you declare them in reserve

Hi all guys as usual after have read again and again my rulebook i have noticed a big difference between english version and italian translation (sadness) On another forum we have a very long discussion about deploying/not deploying at DOW both tyrant and guard at the beginning but this is another story (or topic :)). This lead me to read again and carefully the indipendent characters section from rulebook p.48 First bullet: "In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2'' coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase [...cut, this is not what we are talking about]" Second bullet: "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them. p.94 RESERVES "[...]During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of this reserves to the opponent. First he must specicy to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will be rolled for and will arrive together, or not [...].If units in reserve have the deep strike, scout or infiltrate special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge[...]" p.86 ORGANISING A BATTLE 1) agree point limits 2) prepare the battlefield 3) select a mission 4) deploy forces 5) start the game C:SM p. (don't know) Captain Shrike: "Shrike and mambers of his squad have infiltrate universal rule" So the question is: 1) "can i joint shrike to my squad of terminator/sternguard/assault/something else and infiltrate them at the beginning of the game?": my answer is NO 2) "can i joint shrike to my squad of terminator/sternguard/assault/something else and outflank with them?": my answer is YES Analyze the deploy steps: I deploy my forces, than i still have in my hands my terminators and the captain, they are different units there is no wat to have shirke join them at this point because the only way is to be deployed in coherency or reserve togather. if i try to deploy in coherency i will have to put them in my deploy zone, and than add shirke, or deploy him and them them near him (in my zone, because since they are not a single unit yet they still don't have the infiltration rule) If i declare to reserve both i can joint them, and at the moment to declare outflanking they are already a single unit. No guys AFTER READING RULEBOOK QUOTES can you tell me if i'm missing something? thank you Albion