Brom MKIV

@prot so is there a thread to vent about the book? A collection of valid complaints can be constructive as I suspect GW can read. Hell they probably have accounts here. If they pay sites to give positive reviews why not joining a forum too?

Long time since I posted around these parts. XX Legion player primarily although I dabble in several legions including NL. While I can see potential in the new rules I am incredibly upset about many of the changes which will shelve literally 80 percent of my alpha legion. I want to give the book a shot but I can't. I can't get past it. My units of converted cbplas chosen, all my terminators, some of my berserkers and nearly all my characters, and to an extent my cultists and there's more. In addition and just as impactful, these seemingly small changes have completely changed the dynamic of my army so that I cannot play the style I enjoy. I feel we are now shoehorned into a rush at you style. And while the models potentially gained durability this comes with cost so any army I could field would be much smaller. So smaller, more linear, less ranged presence, less board control and so on. I will say I like the art and the new models I've seen. There are some nice things in the book and that almost makes it more frustrating to me. I DO want some of those things, by they don't outweigh what was removed. I also see some improvements and this Includes some of the relics and WLTs although other favorites have been nerfed or removed. But viewing these as a straight plus is ignoring the reduced starting cp and the increased cost to include even the first WLT and relic. I personally enjoyed the previous legions rules and had success. And spent quite a lot of money and time. To get this level of invalidation of my investment is a slap in my face. Been playing since 4th sorry but I agree with the sentiment on NL and AL. And generally any list not predicated on Abaddon. On point.. how I'm adapting? I'm not. I'll wait until I get rules I can personally enjoy that respect my collection. In the mean time I'll play the previous rules or play a different army depending on my opponent and the event. If magically GW decides to put combi weapons and jump packs back in order and opens up the war gear on HQs I will revisit this statement.

A medium unit is decent against other troops and for that little added threat saturation. You can't expect them to be heavy lifters but they can supplement other similar units. In my case 2 chosen and 2 berzerkers and terminators. Cultists are still good but they don't bring any threat so a medium csm unit is a way to hedge against the long games with a semi credible threat.

Agreed. They won't ever be stellar I feel but now there's at least argument for including a minimal amount. That said my current list has 30 power armoured bodies. To me they're all chaos marines. I don't feel any obligation to take them all from troops.

I like the idea. I have character as a champ now. Go for it.

I have been using a couple setups. 2x5 with heavy bolter and the rest chainswords, with paired on the champs. And most recently a single unit of 9 all with chainswords and lightning claw/cs champ. Not a lot of CSM I know but it's more than in the past.

The new method of base cost is better I feel but annoying on the Sicaran. I believe it's the only unit to have a stock wewpon and then option to upgrade with more of the same. As it stands it means the Sicaran costs 15 pts more base. Hope this gets clarified.

6 refers to 5 guys with twin chainswords on the champ fyi. Blast is a consideration along with morale but in addition Marines just don't use larger squads in general. Not like they were bringing 6s before blast existed. It's a pricey min max faction.

The main thing to remember is that csm are worse than their elite counterparts. Keep them cheap and use them to duplicate another unit choice as a lesser version. In my case the latest attempt is as an assault unit with melta. They are cheap obsec troops which is their main strengths. Coming out a rhino or dreadclaw they can still do work and maybe just as important they can attract fire from your more important units. On heavies I can actually recommend the heavy bolter. On paper and math hammer the RCC seems superior and this was my initial thoughts as well.. but it's not that simple. The HB is cheaper and longer range allowing the unit to play a cheap defensive camping role. And to reiterate its cheaper. If going units of 5 I'd keep the bolters and add HB. Or alternatively just go 6 chainswords and lurk. If going for a unit of 7-10 I'd suggest chainswords and combi meltas. Lightning claw champ if you l can spare 5 pts is a solid investment.

I was on the RCC bit with the pts and stats changes I'm on hvy bolters.. when I take a heavy. It's less killy built also half the cost and longer range so more versatile. IF you use csm I feel that keeping costs low is key to their success.

Lord Arkos is a straight upgrade and has replaced my current lord equivalent. Reroll 1s is huge for him plus -1 to hit in combat now too. If that wasn't enough his +1 to adv and charge now effects alpha legion not just the faithless so he can facilitate DS assaults. Add to that faceless Commander. He is a complete and potent enabler. My current list features 9 plasma terminators, 2x5 plasma chosen, 2x5 berzerkers and 9 csm with chainswords among other things. Arkos is brilliant in this shell. Best of all he's locked with these rules now so non tournament matched play I can bank on his rules not changing.

It's a mixed bag. I hate the cp tax on contemptors. Loyalists have analogues so they don't care but CSM don't so that's a huge disparity. On the bright side deredeos are better than ever and my sicaran will actually see play again in my next game. I think it's slightly less damage output but often more durable and longer range which matters for my purposes. The dreadclaw is a stand out that immediately made my lists. With the option for 2x5 chosen, 2x5 berzerks, or 9 csm it becomes a very flexible unpredictable delivery. Also combines nicely with my helldrake to enable linebreaker. Last but not least lord arkos is everything I had anticipated. He will be replacing my chaos lord equivalent and gains me 2 cp while doing it not to mention enabling assaults from DS.

The havoc doesn't have an advantage at 3 shots where it only equals the combi. It's advantage actually starts at 4 shots so 50% of the time it's a more expensive combi bolter. I hadn't considered blast which makes it more attractive to me now at least. That said these upgrades are the hardest pts to squeeze for me so I rarely include them.

Scouts in elites makes sense for their direction. Cultists would be dead. Even guard wouldn't play infantry squads in elite and they are superior cultists.

Long night at work so maybe I'm misremembering but last I checked smite can be spammed by the same caster now..? Was there a recent FAQ I missed?