Normal Norman

I have just checked Mob Up and all it says that they must have the same data sheet, which they will so I guess it is ok.

Do the Ammo Runts count for the purposes of Mob Up?

I have several major problems with the Primaris. First and foremost I don’t see where the demand for these new Marines was. Marine rules did need at updating to 2W and attacks to show they are better than Guard but who was demanding new models? I know that there has been a lot of scale creep from GW but I didn’t give a :cuss that they were about the same size as Guard. They now make my existing marines look stupid in comparison. I don’t think I could field the two side by side as it would look a bit idiotic. Secondly I don’t like the majority of the models. The weird slightly dog helmets look stupid and the Repulsor is just ridiculous. They took a landraider and gave it a turret loaded with just a stupid number of guns. The Redemptor is always posed like it has just pooped itself. I like the Apothecary and Chaplain and that is about it. Thirdly I am left with a massive amount of limbo about my existing marines. Are they going to get new models in the old scale? How long will the existing kits be produced for? The whole thing is putting me off of Marines in general. I am also sceptical about some of the rules choices. Why the hell cant Primaris get in a Rhino or a Landraider? It is good to vent a bit at least.

Inceptors are definitely on my to buy list along with a couple of new Landspeeders in order to convert into Sammael and a Talonmaster. How have you been using the Reivers?

I wanted to overcharge my Plasma Cannon Devs in order to do multiple wounds to wraithguard and get 2+ to wound on jetbikes. Whilst I played Alaitoc, I wanted to pick up tactics for playing against all -1 to hit Chapter Tactics such as Ravenguard and Alpha Legion.

I have always liked Whirlwinds but they have never been good enough to be worth dropping money on but with Speed of the Raven and Datalink telemenetary it might be worth doing.

A couple of weeks ago I played a game against an Alaitoc army and I got my arse kicked. The -1 to hit was crippling for my gunline army. I wasn’t able to overcharge my Plasma and all of my close range elements got picked off early. How have people been building armies to deal with this? I am thinking of investing in Inceptors to drop with some DWing Knights and a Jump Pack Master.

Librarians with Jump Packs got a price drop in CA, Librarians with bikes didn’t.

Could be my excel is wrong, but... Presume a combat squad of DWT where both PC are in the same squad and using death wing assault. They drop with Belial and shoot hellblasters. each plasma gets 2 shots (average). 75% hit, 67% wound, 16% pass the save, resulting in .83 wounds * 2 for weapons of the dark age. So, either 0 or 1 dead hellblaster per plasma cannon, with a heavy lean toward 1 dead hellblaster. During the shooting phase, overcharge each plasma. That is 2 more shots where 75% hit, 83% wound, 16% pass the save, yielding 1.25 wounds per so 2.5 will fail their save, meaning you'll kill either another 2 or 3 hell blasters. A safe bet is you'll be killing 4 total / dealing 8 wounds. This can go higher if you're hot on the d3s for the number of plasma shots or if the dice are slightly hot on your hit and wound rolls, since every failed save kills a hellblaster. Each assault cannons gets 6 shots, have 75% hit, 67% wound, and 50% pass the save, resulting in 1.5 wounds, so the squad yields 3 wounds on the DWA and again in shooting phase. This kills 3 hellblasters / deals 6 wounds. Due to the way that modifiers are applied after rerolls, you only have a 66% chance of hitting when deeepstriking with heavy weapons. You can reroll 1s and 2s as they are straight misses and a 4+ hits but any 3s become misses only after modifiers are applied and so you can’t reroll them. It is stupid and I don’t like it but there you go.

I don’t want to rely on the index for too long. At some point it is going to get removed which is a real shame. Already the Librarian on a bike didn’t get a points reduction with the other Librarians. It is doubly frustrating when it comes the Ravenwing Apothecary and Ancient. The box actually comes with Corvus Hammers in it.

How did Fury of the Lion work out for you? I thought that it was always going to be inferior to Master of Manoeuvre.

I think the best use of this strat from the DA side at least is on a Librarian. The strat gives +1 to WS, Str, Attacks and Ld. A Librarian with a Force Axe. Has 4 attacks, hitting on 2s with strength 6, d3 damage and -2 rend. He also goes up to Ld 10 for a critical edge to Mind Wipe. He also has the Deathwing Keyword so benefits from the Deathwing Ancient for an additional Attack. I would run him in Terminator Armour so he can drop down in a trio with an Int-Chap, a Deathwing Ancient and the Eye of the Unseen. The Master of Maneouvre Warlord Trait would help. With a following wind they will be able to kill or significantly weaken any super heavy or Primarch.

I am sure it wouldn’t hurt but I think I would take the Ancient over the Apothecary and that whole collection of units is already pretty pricey to be adding more characters to it.

Black Knights are the single strongest unit in the codex. With the stratagem they can advance, shoot and charge, and when properly buffed a large unit will be deadly and difficult to hurt. Grim Resolve has taken away the need for DA backfield units to be buffed but the frontline units still need buffing to be effective. As a minimum Black Knights should be accompanied by Sammael for rerolls but a Dark Shroud for a -1 to hit, a Talon Master for rerolls to wound, an Ancient for an extra Attack and a librarian would not be unwelcome. Normal bikes don’t make as much of a use of the buffs as Black Knights and unless you use the stratagem, you have to choose between shooting and durability. That said I am going to be trying a small bike squad with 2 flamers and a combi flamer which can advance and still shoot although they will end up being a bit of a suicide squad no doubt.

I am pretty sure that as it is your turn you dictate the order of events. I can’t seem to find a ruling on this in the designers commentary but they talked about this very interaction in the latest FLG podcast.

You can benefit from the auras of Belial and a Deathwing Ancient. It is the most ridiculously marginal of benefits. Really really not worth a CP. It should be an upgrade for specific units. It actually takes away a stratagem slot that could be used for other things.

I am not entirely convinced by the DW Ancient as he is nearly the cost of 3 DW Knights. A buffed unit of 5 is the about the same number of attacks as 8. There are a few mitigating factors such as character status, which is useful but one character with a unit can get easily get cut off by unlucky charge rolls.

I don’t really mind this whole Dark Angels are traitors meme because Dark Angels are kind of traitorous. They do objectively traitorous things like abandoning battles seemingly for no reason and will kill endless numbers to preserve their secrets. They are doing it out of loyalty however and while they regret their actions, they believe that what they are doing is right. It is this internal struggle that makes the Dark Angels so complex as protagonists and ultimately the most interesting the Chapter.

Hellblasters definitely have a place as a flexible midfield unit with aura support. I would probably go with regular Plasma Incinerators over the assault variety though. In my mind the extra point of strength is more important than being able to advance and shoot. Most vehicles in the game are either toughness 6 or toughness 7. There is a big difference in 3+\4+ to wound and 4+\5+ to wound. Admittedly between 16” and 24” APIs do more shots but I think this still balances out in favour of the PIs as the PIs have an extra 6” total range. Regular PIs also have the option to overcharge and double out Marines or wound Russes etc on a 4+. If you advance to make the most of the APIs you are never going to want to overcharge them because reroll or not the risk of losing several squad members is too high. In my opinion if you want fast plasma then go with Black Knights who although more expensive (subject to change) are also tougher and better in combat.

To reiterate what ImHotepmMagi has said. It is not as simple as DPS but it is very hard to take multiple wounds into account. For 165 points you get 5 Hellblasters and for 164 points you get 6 Devs with 4 Plasma Cannons. Against small arms fire the Hellblasters are nearly twice as robust as the Devs but against multi damage weapons raw number of models wins out. I can’t Mathshammer the vagaries of what you get shot with because Hellblasters (like Terminators) are going to get shot at by multi damage weapons and Devs are going to get shot at by small arms. I guess my point was (although I was remiss in not directly stating) that there is not much between Hellblasters and Plasma Devs. You can use both equally well in different ways as has pointed out above. For me the difference is not enough to justify spending £35 on a box in lieu of something else. If I had some Hellblasters or I particularly liked the models then I would probably go with a unit of each.

I have been doing some Mathshammer on the difference between Plasma Devs and Hellblasters. I have assumed that the unit has stood still (for the reroll) and overcharged. I have only applied the stratagem for +1 damage when comparing against the Leman Russ. I have not compared Assault Plasma Incinerators however because they they are not best used as backfield fire support. A units of Devs with 4 Plasma Cannons will do 4.3 casualties to Meq, 3.5 casualties to Teq and 7.8 wounds to a Leman Russ (Leq). A unit of 5 Hellblasters with Heavy Plasma Incinerators will do 3.2 casualties to Meq, 2.2 casualties to Teq and 7.8 wounds to Leq. Excepting robustness, a Dev Squad beats out HPIs in every metric for 26 points less. Although when targeting Meq the HPIs would not need to overcharge and risk dying. Regular Plasma Incinerators are a little different. Out of rapid fire range PIs do 3.2 casualties to Meq, 2.2 casualties to Teq and 5.8 to Leq. These numbers will double in rapid fire range. When comparing points per casulty / points per wound, Devs are about 50% more efficient from 16” to 36” and Hellblasters are 35% more efficient at 15” or less. The toss up between Devs and Hellblasters then comes down to whether your enemy is likely to close in with your lines or not. There are some factors that I have not taken into account. Namely the Devs access to Signums and Cherubs and the Hellblasters additional wound. I will personally be sticking with Devs through the simple expedient of having at least 8 from various sources such as Dark Vengeance boxes and Dev boxes. I would have to buy the Hellblasters.

Thanks for the tip. That looks like a good scheme to me.

I was thinking of a parade ground effect. The scheme I am looking at is on the GW website. Bright red jacket, white trousers and yellow trim. A very Praetorian colour scheme I guess.

Soon I will striping off my Cadians and repainting then to better further the glory of Modian. I am going to be going with a red/light grey scheme. I am uncertain how to paint the tanks though. I don’t think that the usual camo patterning would match the clean lines of the Mordian Infantry. I would appreciate seeing some examples of how other people have painted their Mordian tanks.

As an addendum to this discussion it is worth noting that in the new Grey Knights Codex they added a unit without a model. Namely a Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight. I am not sure if this means that they are intending to bring out a model in the future or that they will continue to partially support non-model units. Conceivably they will redo the Dreadknight kit with a command option ala Sableclaw/Ravenwing Landspeeder.