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"It's our time to shine" is a phrase I often hear now-a-days. Marines have been in a relatively poor space since the start of 8th - barring one or two arguably dull Gulliman builds. The new set of codicies have brought with it some exceptional changes and reinvigorated marine play and play styles, opening up some amazing options that we haven't had for years. Yet, while the argument that marines have been weaker for a while and now "deserve" their time in the sun' is an understandable one, it's a pretty narrow-minded and arguably self-serving one that doesn't have the greatest implication for the game as a whole - so let's take that one as a given and add some new thoughts and considerations to the discussion of the advent of a very new level of marine power. A power that has now come at an odd cost. With Ultramarines and White Scars, the combination of strong relics, powers and traits have been synergized so well with AMAZING stratagems. This has been further buffed by the Doctrine and "uber-doctrine" abilities that all marines get - the combination of the aforementioned changes with these doctrines arguably pushing them from "strong" to "top tier". This was exemplfied in the London GT, and even in a local ITC GT here in China where a player essentially took a near identical list he had taken in the last GT, and came 2nd (up from a middling performance). But then came Iron Hands.... Now, for starters the combo's here seem off the charts. Everyone has seen the Iron Hands craziness by now - the (almost literally) unkillable dreadnoughts being the biggest offenders- but beyond this, the synergies available just seem so skewed. For me, the IH (successor or otherwise) uber-doctrines are by far the best. Reroll ones of heavies, no move and shoot penalty and the basic doctrine bonus of -1 AP makes for some incredible firepower. Add to the fact that we can grab Stealthy and Artisans for this combo and we have mobile heavy marine shooting like we've never seen. Because IH are only the 3rd/4th codex to be released, they're the most notable so far - because of that, I don't intend, nor want this to be an IH pile-on- it's a broader marine codex concern and question. So, the question is a general marine one - have GW gone too far? Is it too much? What is the feeling in your area and what are your gaming groups talking about? Because I'm in multiple social groups on different continents, and they're ALL ablaze with concern like i've never seen.