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Keep this topic (this note will be removed after purging completed) (Note this hasn't been updated since 2008, so there is even more information such as the heresy books, 5th and 6th edition.)[/size] To answer some initial questions: [/size] 1) Yes we know that it was a bunch of random people writing random stuff[/size] 2) Yes we know GW owns the fluff and they can do what they want, this is for people who like to think about topics.[/size] 3) Yes, the Ultramarines were a 3rd founding chapter, and the Crimson Fists were a first founding legion.[/size] 4) Yes, the Horus Heresy was original defined as the inter-legionary war per the Horus Hersey boxed set.[/size] 5) Yes, there is more stuff you could add if you brought in Chaos and C'Tan/Necrons, but we focused on the Imperium, more fun and easier to poke. [/size] The original concept of this belongs to [/size]refuse of the B&C, who ran discussions like this one once every three years before allowing [/size]Sigismund Himself [/size] to take a shot at this back in 2008. Now it is 6 years later: [/size]So without further ado, Refuse and Sigismund Himself present to you...[/size] An Orwellian Take on 40k To question is to doubt, doubt is a sign of weakness. The background of the 40k universe has been constantly changing. Edition after edition has built upon or replaced the background of the 40k universe. We, as readers of the background, know that GW is publishing new facts for the background. All have been published as facts. So what makes one fact more correct then the other? This is where two camps emerge. Like the Inquisition factions, there are many shades in between the two and many viewpoints exist within even these categories.[/size] Puritan: The most recent fluff is correct. This is the only correct fluff, all the other background is superseded by this. You acknowledge the meta-game dimension of GW's control over the fluff.[/size] Radical: Fluff is like history- a single line that has been dictated by opinions, bias and propaganda throughout the years. Rather than seeing the most recent fluff stamped above other sources, you develop theories as to why the story was changed. You see that the majority of the fluff comes from the viewpoint of the Imperium and thus would be subject to distortion.[/size] Most people would be familiar with the Puritan view of fluff so we’re going to concentrate on the Radical view.[/size] The Radical (or Orwellian) view of the background tries to make these fluff changes fit into the framework of the 40k lore. In essence, you think of a reason why this happened in the 40k universe. To think in this way, you cannot acknowledge the meta-dimension of Games Workshop’s control over the fluff. You have to think in-universe. Thus Guilliman becoming a Primarch was not a simple GW changing of fluff but was part of something bigger within the 40k universe (see below for more on this). [/size] It uses the principles of Doublethink from George Orwell’s [/size]1984, from which some of themes in the 40k universe can be traced (a great book as well, I highly recommend reading it). Doublethink is the ability to hold two seemingly irreconcilable facts in your head and believe them both. In this discussion, doublethink is the ability to hold two conflicting pieces of fluff in your mind and resolve them. One of these pieces of fluff may be the truth, the other propaganda spread by someone within the Imperium (the High Lords for example…). Both may be partially true, with bits of the truth contained in each. Maybe its all lies and only you know the truth![/size] Nearly all of the background material comes from an Imperial viewpoint. You don’t hear of the Word Bearers bearing the only true word to the heretics of the Corpse God, of their purification of the heretic’s souls that they can repent in death. What you do hear of is the Imperium’s armies bearing the only true word to the heretics of the Chaos Gods, of their purification of the heretic’s souls that they can repent in death. It’s all shades of grey. What is Imperial propaganda and what is not? Is there any truth to be found or merely varying degrees of the truth mixed with lies.[/size] Why would you want to think like this? It adds another layer of doom and gloom to the 40k Universe. Everything you've been told is a lie, put by those in power to keep you there. All the information that you know of the universe around you is legends, myths and rumours, passed down through history. It makes an interesting story out of the changes in the 40k lore. It challenges people to think in this way and to see possible conspiracies. It makes Grimdark doubleplusgood. [/size] One and One Make Five If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. What is canon? The Dictionary defines it as 'a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine'.[/size] So what is canon in the 40k universe? Should the fact that one piece of information was published later make it more correct than another (and vice versa…)? From the Head Publisher of the Black Library-[/size] http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marc Gascoigne - Publisher @ The Black Library and Black Flame Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history... Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths. I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you. Where does canon start and where does canon end? When does something stop being canon? For example, the Melanochrome organ. The latest Space Marine codex doesn't include it in the list of organs that are implanted. So is this a retcon? It doesn't give evidence either for the Melanochrome's continued existence or its removal. So is it still canon or not? Canon is an uncertain thing, depending a lot on the interpretation of the reader. Everything depends on the reader. If they think a piece of fluff fits into the 40k universe and meets their standards, they will include it. It's their truth of the 40k universe. [/size] In WD 97, Marneus Calgar's power gloves were part of his bionic arms and included digital weapons. They weren't named and were otherwise ordinary. However, Codex Ultramarines was published and things changed. The Ultramarines were firmly enshrined as a First Founding Chapter, Calgar's power gloves were now the Gauntlets of Ultramar, and Roboute Guilliman was said to have taken them from a champion of Chaos during the Great Crusade. How many Champions of Chaos were even encountered during the Great Crusade, anyway? [/size] Confused yet? In US WD 303, we have an illustration. The caption says that it is of Guilliman recovering the gauntlets from a Champion of Chaos. However, the picture clearly depicts Marneus Calgar standing over the form of a dead World Eaters Space Marine, who's wearing the Gauntlets. So we have a muddied picture of the true origins of these weapons. All must be canon. So which do we accept? Could this merely be a slip-up in the ultimate conspiracy of 40k? [/size] All marines are created equal Truth begets hatred. Let’s have a look at the Ultramarines. They were originally a third Founding Chapter and Guilliman was no more than a mere Imperial Guard commander. Compare this to the current situation with Roboute Guilliman revered as a hero of the Astartes and the father of three fifths of the chapters in existence. How did this change?[/size] The end of the [/size]Horus Heresy. The High Lords have taken over the shattered Imperium. They have just seen the Emperor rebelled against by his own creations, half the Legions of the Astartes. So they wouldn’t want this situation to happen again, because it would be them being overthrown. Their puppet, an Imperial Guard commander named Guilliman creates a tome dealing with the break-up of power within the Imperium so that the High Lords’ power cannot be threatened. Many Primarchs are drawn in by the promise of stability within the Imperium or are too withdrawn to debate the changes. Others are more vocal in their protestations. Including the Primarchs of two of the closest Legions, the Imperial Fists and the Crimson Fists. The High Lords cannot have this.[/size] The Imperial Fists are in the process of attempting to destroy the Fortress of Pain. The situation is in a stalemate with both sides taking huge casualties. The two most vocal opponents are separated, with the Crimson Fists some distance away from the fight in the Eastern Fringe. The High Lords seize their chance. The remnants of the Imperial Army fall upon the little of the Crimson Fists that remain, killing nearly all. Using the prototypes of the Assassain Temples, they succeed in laying low the Primarch, mortally poisoning him. Seeing their Primarch alive but with his life in the hands of the enemy forces the rest of the Crimson Fists to surrender. They take the Primarch's weapons as their own and they eventually find their way to Guilliman. Doesn't it make more sense for a Primarch from the Crimson Fists to wield such weapons? [/size] The Imperial Fists are whittled down to a fraction of their strength at the Fortress of Pain. Now you have the two most vocal opponents laid low. The High Lords present an ultimatum to the remaining Astartes of those Legions. Weak and beaten, they have no choice but to listen to the demands. The Crimson Fists will be allowed to live as long as they remain within the bounds of a chapter, give up their homeworld and obey the High Lords. If they disobey, their Primarch will be killed. If Dorn disobeys, his closest brother will be destroyed. Anyway, if they fight against the High Lords, they risk destroying the Imperium before its even recovered from the [/size]Horus Heresy.[/size] The Imperial Fists were forced to divide into two, the Black Templars and the Imperial Fists. Dorn knew that the High Lords would watch the chapter he commanded far more closely for any hint of treachery, so he puts the more hotheaded and outraged of his sons under the command of Sigismund. This chapter goes out into the universe, taking their anger out on whichever unfortunate aliens, heretics or traitors they encounter, biding their time and building their strength to avenge an ancient wrong. Now their numbers are said to be between that of five to six other chapters. Who knows what these zealous warriors wait for?[/size] The majority of the chapters gradually find the details of this treachery by the High Lords. All swear to never be tricked in this way again, leading to the legendary independence of the Astartes. The remaining Primarchs see the danger of the High Lords but don't want to risk destroying the rest of humanity. So they either fight for the rest of humanity or disappear, out of the sight of the High Lords but doubtless still fighting, somewhere in the shadows...[/size] The Dark Angels hear of these events. The Lion resolves to approach his brother Primarchs to recover the Crimson Fist Primarch. However, a large movement led by Luther argued that to do so would risk the fledgling Imperium to oblivion. The debate between the two grows greater and greater, until it leads to open warfare between the two factions. Luther all but kills the Lion, who cannot bring himself to kill his brother. With a last breath, the Lion cursed those who defied him. Opening the skein of the warp, the primarch swept himself and all his remaining supporters into the warp. Deposited throughout time and space, some fell to Chaos to survived. The chapter lives in shame of its deeds, trying to silence the last of the ‘Fallen’ and the mysterious Cypher….[/size] The High Lords need a way to control the Astartes. So come the third Founding, the Ultramarines are created. This chapter took up much of the resources of the Mechanicus, as 23 other chapters were also created using this geneseed. Where did they get it? Putting Guilliman at the head of these chapters, they ensure that the High Lords have a number of puppet chapters to enforce their will, almost equal to the remainder of the Astartes that survive. The Crimson Fists Primarch is given to the Ultramarines for safekeeping, who are ready to kill him at the message from the High Lords. They took the Crimson Fist’s previous homeworld and renamed it Ultramar. Over time, the population was re-educated to the ‘true’ version of events. And the final nail in the coffin, the Ultramarines Chapter Motto on their Chapter Banner? “Our Presence Remakes the Past.” Convenient, is it not? [/size]http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/smilies/wink.png [/size] Guess who controls the creations of new marine chapters? The High Lords. So guess which geneseed they use the most? The Ultramarines, naturally. They can then be assured that other ancient grudges are not passed down to other successors too much. As long as the majority of the chapters are drawn from the Ultramarines line (such as the current 3/5ths), a wholesale uprising by the Astartes is not likely. The merest hint of rebellion has been put down ruthlessly. The Celestial Lions' near annihilation at the hands of 'surprisingly accurate' sniper fire from Orks takes on a whole new dimension. Would this chapter have had something to reveal? Since it did not have the prestige of some other Templars (the Black Templars and Space Wolves spring to mind...), they suffered the consequences for silence to prevail. [/size] This opens another interesting dimension to the Crimson Fists' Fortress Monastery. Perhaps the Inquisition got wind of something, perhaps the Feast of Blades meeting between the Imperial Fists successors had some interesting things said at it. Some rebellion planned. So the Orks invade the Crimson Fists' homeworld (conveniently...) and go about their business. An 'accident' occurs with the launch of a missile and Kaboom, the Fortress Monastery is no more. All those ancient artifacts and records from the First Founding of the Legions, gone. Not to mention most of the chapter. Was it an attempt to wipe the chapter out the chapter or was it just a warning shot across the bows of the chapter? A one last chance? Wasn't in convenient Kantor was outside of the ancient fortress when it went up? And as per the codex, this gives even more ambiguity about why exactly the Eldar saved him from the Orks. Perhaps Kantor has a role to play yet in the potential rebellion of the Astartes...[/size] Yet we could delve into this further. How did the High Lords come to power? By the near-death of the Emperor. Perhaps Horus fell more than once. And the Quote The Emperor knows, the Emperor is watching Sensei subplot. In the Third Edition Rulebook, an Inquisitorial report says that they are merely a Tzeentchian plot. But this is just what the High Lords want you to think. They don't want to relinquish their power and they are wiling to fight among each other for it (age of Apostasy and the Assassin Wars). If the Emperor was to rise, they risk his wrath for what their predecessors have done. If he rises, they won't have the same power. So a bit of skulduggery and the only hope of awakening the Emperor is painted over as a Chaos plot. [/size] This is just a view of the 40k Universe that I can see. I'm sure you can think of even more things and better conspiracies than this, have a go. Let me know if you do, I'd be interested in hearing them [/size]http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/smilies/smile.png Sanity is Statistical Ultimately, this is just about a way that you can view the fluff. Everyone has their own views on it and their own personal retconning. This is merely just a challenge to those who haven’t thought about the fluff in this way. Look at the current fluff and the old fluff. Draw lines between the two and try to see why those changes would have been made in the 40k Universe or what really is the truth in between those two absolute statements of fact. Look at fluff in ways you haven't looked at them before. Think in-universe. Accept all fluff! Make your own truth![/size] ++This post is approved by the Ministry of Truth++[/size]