Iron Snakes 101

[Candleshoes]

Brothers!

 

Rejoice! The time of Snakes is upon us!

 

For all those interested in Mr. Dan Abnett’s own Astartes Chapter, the “Iron Snakes

Edited July 5, 2007 by Candleshoes

[Kushan Blackrazor]

Wow! Now these guys sound interesting...just wondering how to model the spears on the marines, is all. I guess you could steal some from Warhammer Fantasy. And I agree True Grit is the best you can do to represent all those weapons in melee.

[Horus Reborn]

Honestly, if this is the direction they've taken....I liked them better before they were a 'Greco-Roman to the max!' chapter with all sorts of obviously non-codex weaponry and junk. And since when were they grey and non metallic? That was one of the charms of them to me way back in the day. Seeing as there are about 50 named grey loyalist chapters and only maybe a couple metallic ones (Doom Eagles, etc.)

 

I knew after seeing the book was coming out, I'd have to change my mind about these guys being a new project for me. This just kind of sours them to me, sorry.

[Gree]

Honestly, if this is the direction they've taken....I liked them better before they were a 'Greco-Roman to the max!' chapter with all sorts of obviously non-codex weaponry and junk. And since when were they grey and non metallic? That was one of the charms of them to me way back in the day. Seeing as there are about 50 named grey loyalist chapters and only maybe a couple metallic ones (Doom Eagles, etc.)

 

I knew after seeing the book was coming out, I'd have to change my mind about these guys being a new project for me. This just kind of sours them to me, sorry.

 

Actually this fluff was written pretty long ago by Dan Abnett. It was originally published by Inferno, so that's why there are a lot of non-codex liberties taken.

[Pulse]

With this direct link to snakes or wyrms, IS have an incredibely different system concerning poison. Should a brother be bitten by a snake, it is considered a good omen. The toxins will be momentarily effective on the astartes warrior, then, the poisons will be stored within a particular gland, allowing the stolen toxin to be released from the Iron Snake should it bite an adversary.

The gland you speak of is called the Betchers gland and the abilty for posion to be stored in the gland is common amoungst all the space marine chapters apart from Imperial Fists and their successors who do not have a working Betchers gland, so its not a unique thing to the IS.

 

Bloody good book though, one of the best books i have read. I love the new style Dan wrote for this book, going from battle to battle rather than a continuious story.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Pulse

[Barret]

The gland you speak of is called the Betchers gland and the abilty for posion to be stored in the gland is common amoungst all the space marine chapters apart from Imperial Fists and their successors who do not have a working Betchers gland, so its not a unique thing to the IS.

 

I think the uniqueness comes not from the ability to do so, but from the importance placed upon the act of absorbing and re-using the poisons.

[Xythan]

With this direct link to snakes or wyrms, IS have an incredibely different system concerning poison. Should a brother be bitten by a snake, it is considered a good omen. The toxins will be momentarily effective on the astartes warrior, then, the poisons will be stored within a particular gland, allowing the stolen toxin to be released from the Iron Snake should it bite an adversary.

The gland you speak of is called the Betchers gland and the abilty for posion to be stored in the gland is common amoungst all the space marine chapters apart from Imperial Fists and their successors who do not have a working Betchers gland, so its not a unique thing to the IS.

 

Bloody good book though, one of the best books i have read. I love the new style Dan wrote for this book, going from battle to battle rather than a continuious story.

 

While I am new here, that doesn't sound right...the Bletcher's Gland creates acid in the mouth and the Preomnor is a digestive way of neutralizing poisons/toxins...there doesn't seem to be an reference to venom injected at all, as poisons are ingested not injected. There is a subtle but important difference...

[Xythan]

Even the Oolitic Kidney seems a bit off the mark...

[Ajo79]

Not sure if it's mentioned already but the Iron Snakes are also in the book Tactica Imperalis, which deals with some tactics and battle reports from the universe. It's a very good book I think. More of a fact book than a novel. But well worth reading.

 

The story about the Iron Snakes is grim but it also says alot about what the Space Marines realy are.

 

I like the Iron Snakes. I will probably buy the new book and if I ever will do a established chapter the Snakes are among the top of the list.

[Pulse]

I think the uniqueness comes not from the ability to do so, but from the importance placed upon the act of absorbing and re-using the poisons.

I know what he meant mate, i was just clearing it up for the people who didn't know what the gland was, etc. :rolleyes:

Edited July 5, 2007 by Pulse

[Candleshoes]

Thanks for all the responses so far!

 

@Horus - They were always a grey chapter in the accounts written about them, but since the "barry marine" on the chapter list site is shown as metalic grey, it is easy enough to confuse. As for your comment about "Non-Codex weaponry and junk", I am a little confused as to what you mean, since each founding Chapter will have their own traditions, combat techniques, and weaponry that tie into their Home. Each Chapter is individually unique, and to see one with some fresh fluff is nice, since I Hardly doubt that every Chapter is exactly a template of the codex. Salamanders and their use of fire based weaponry and lizard scales, Space wolves and their use of pelts and axes, Dark Angels and their use of robes and penitent charms. The Chapter decides the fighting traditions of it's phratry, as is true in any astartes chapter.

 

As for the process of toxins and the chapter, I did not mean that it was souly for Iron Snakes.

The process of being bitten by a venomous snake is seen as a gift from the Emperor by the Chapter, and due to this, the toxins are not neutralised by the Marine's body systems, but rather taken for storage to the glands in his mouth, and for a short while, can spit or bite effectively to his chapter's name.

 

For the specifics of what would happen, the marine gets bitten: the implanted haemastamen begins its rapid ministry of his enhanced blood, altering the the constituent make up to fight the venom. His secondary heart and Oolitic kidney start a conjoined detoxification work by pumping and flitering the taint in his bloodstream. Larraman cells are sent to the wound, and on contact with air, form a skin substitute to close it, and by doing so, overwhelm the anti-ague properties of the snake venom. Here the Betcher's glands swell and the toxins are taken into storage, rather than be neutralised.

 

Sorry for being unclear, it was 4 in the morning when I decided to type it out!

[SCC]

Excellent summary Candleshoes. Can I ask for clarification on some points? Note at this stage, I've read the Inferno! shorts/novel and own but haven't read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade Iron Snakes stuff.

 

Their left shoulder pad houses the Chapter's Icon on a field of white, the double looped blue Water Wyrm, and the right pad depicts the name and symbol of it's squad.

Implied in the novel but never stated that I remember. Is this from the SWC?

 

Armor is gunmetal grey (Not Metalic in color, but in Grey tones).

Again, is there a specific notation to this effect? I know Abnett refers to them as grey much of the time but frequently it is gunmetal grey he talks about. It's hard to imagine gunmetal grey not being metallic in some way, shape or form. Also the IS on the cover of the novel looks metallic to me. That said the IS in Insignium Astartes looked blue-grey to me (so much so I painted a test Marine in that colour).

 

Each Marine is armed with a large rounded Hoplon-esque combat shield, 1-3 2 meter long sea-lances (a very close mix between a Hoplite’s spear and a harpoon), a short sword sized combat knife, and a bolter. IS brothers are well trained in close combat to wield both bolter and spear, or shield in unison.

I'd debate this one. Certainly, on occasion, the Iron Snakes are armed this way, but it happens only once in the book and only for a planned, pitched battle. Most of the time the IS are armed with bolters, combat knives and the other typical weapons of the Astartes. In my opinion anyone creating an IS army would be justified in sticking to standard Astartes gear as much as going the Hoplite route.

 

Skypio possesses the only suits of Tactical Dreadnaught Armor within the Chapter

Does it actually say that in the novel or SWC? Again, it's implied at a basic level but I don't remember it being outright stated.

 

I'd also note that squads can be (and are) destroyed/disbanded and reformed as the Chapter needs/has resources so squad names are by no means fixed. To this end I'd also note I'm not sure that the Notables are fixed entities either. As any other squad it could be lost in combat and lie dormant for years before being reactivated, in which case I imagine another squad being made 'notable' or another Notable squad being raised so the Chapter has a full load of Notables.

 

When a Captain marches to War under the authority of the Chapter Master Seydon, he allows every squad in the Chapter to cast their name into a Pool

Again, I'm not sure this happens every time. Certainly Damocles squad are assigned certain missions rather than 'volunteering' for them. This may be reserved for larger campaigns or for specific deployments perhaps but I don't see it happening for each and every mission that crops up.

 

Bloody good book though, one of the best books i have read. I love the new style Dan wrote for this book, going from battle to battle rather than a continuious story.

The reason the first half of the book is different to Abnett's usual style is that, as mentioned before, 5 or 6 of the first Chapters appeared in Inferno! as short stories (only the first Chapter is new in the first half or so of the book). To me this isn't a change in writing style, it's lazy and to be honest, except for the first chapter, the early chapters had bugger all to do with the plot which I found disappointing. OK, Abnett's use of them to retroactively characterise the dramatis personae is excellent but they still feel tacked on to me. Maybe that's just 'cos I read them in Inferno so I knew they were short stories strung together...

 

That said the second half of the book was excellent, I really enjoyed that (and the first chapter). The 'hoplite' IS vs Ork battle scenes made me think of Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire, which is a good thing, I love that book.

[Pulse]

That said the second half of the book was excellent, I really enjoyed that (and the first chapter). The 'hoplite' IS vs Ork battle scenes made me think of Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire, which is a good thing, I love that book.

Aye that was a great battle, well written and full of excitment, being a soldier myself it stood out from the experiences i have had, obviously not with shields, spears and swords but with the closeness of battle, the sights, smells and sounds, the thoughts a soldier has. As well not being able to see your squad members at times because of the mayhem around you.

 

Dan in my view is still the best BL author by far. :teehee:

Edited July 6, 2007 by Pulse

[BrotherLoki]

I think Abnett does a great job of characterising the Astartes - on the one hand, they are supermen who know no fear, but on the other, their pride and supreme self confidence tends to get them into all kinds of trouble. This holds true for both Brothers of the Snake and his Horus Heresy work.

 

Anyway, what would people suggest for traits for the Iron Snakes? I would think Purity Above All is a must (apothecaries in each squad) and potentially Trust your Battle Brothers, as the latter wwould allow you to field units with bolters and sea lances, and would represent the defensive phalanx pretty well (counterattack). As to disadvantages, if just going with the one advantage, I'd suggest Faithful Unto Death, as the tactical squads really seem to be the backbone of the chapter. If going for two advantages I'd probably lean towards either Eye to Eye, or Aspire to Glory. I'm not sure which though.

 

Any ideas?

[Candleshoes]

Brother SCC!

 

I would like to answer a few of your inquiries, and to point out that the gathered information must be taken with a Grain of Salt, as a bit of it is only implied by Mr. Abnett, not fully stated. He has done a good job with the novel allowing the readers enough information to get a good sense of the chapter, and of course, allows for all sorts of interpretations on the finery details.

 

For the right shoulder pad hosting the symbol of the squad, it is only implied, as well, as I reader I draw a conclusion on this. There is a mentioning of a right pauldron being damaged in the novel, obscuring the symbol underneath. Number or name or symbol, I’m sure all are fine choices until we receive more info on the chapter.

 

Gunmetal grey armor. Again, to each their own imagination on this. Personally, those who have read the background stories know of the ritualistic nature of the IS. Many times it is mentioned at how the Chapter’s serfs and slaves keep their plate at a high shine before battle. From this, as well as their classical greek nature, my personal conclusion was a medium-dark grey/blue hue (much like that of a dulled iron) that is shined highly, giving it a much lighter color. By all means, it could just be in fact that their armor is a metallic grey, or even a very light blue/grey. I am a fan of a more dark and gritty tone to my imagination and models.

 

As for how Astarted Arm themselves. To each their own for this as well, standard codex structure would look and play fine on a battlefield, but I have written what I have interpreted through Abnett’s writings. Shields are used quite often, and since you mentioned reading the Inferno stories and the novel, you will remember. The combat shields were used by the larger IS combat group, by the smaller group of 50, by the 10 man squad action through the refinery, and even by Priad in his venture to kill the clan if Primuls. It seems that this, combined with their combat knife are quite often used, as are bolters and grenades. As for the Sea-lances, the IS train with them, hunt wyrms with them, they were in the shuttle of Priad, they were used by both the 250 and 50 man battlegroups, they were used by some individual marines in smaller action… no matter how you look at it, it is a symbol of the chapter and an important icon… heck, even the Chapter Master has one! Again, modeling or game wise, with or without, it makes no difference, it only adds a little flavor in my opinion, and they are probably not used in all actions, you are right.

 

Remember though, the IS seem to use and rely on their Chapter’s serfs and slaves quite heavily in larger actions (in my opinions from reading). This is much like their Greek counterparts. The serfs in the stories reload weapons while the marines are engaged in hand to hand, they carry extra lances and equipment, tend to the wounded… all in all, a bit of a help to the chapter. This gets across the fact that maybe, the IS do rely on a little different wargear for larger actions. Again, interpret how you like, so long as they play out the way you like on the table.

 

It states in the novel quite clearly that Captain Medes does command his notable squad, Skypio, all of which wear tactical dreadnaught armor. His men are among the most honored, but it doesn’t specifically state that they are the only ones who possess terminator armor. Most deem since the strength of the chapter lies within the brothers, it is a safe guess and a good fluff point to assume that their squad are the only terminators. We’ll never know until Mr. Abnett specifies of course, so, don’t let that hold you down. It was more of a neat restriction than anything.

 

As for the squads, I believe you are mistaken. Yes, a squad (meaning its Members) may be destroyed in battle, but the squad is re-organized with new marines and a veteran battle brother from an existing squad is promoted to sergeant, and given command over the new marines. The name of the squad stays the same. There is a specific example of this in the stories, as squad Ridates is all but destroyed (and Parthus outright), it is reformed and remade, and infact, stands a position in the battleine among the 50 brothers at the end of the novel. As for notables, it would take many many years to become a notable squad, and I am sure they change after time. Please note that the 5 squads I listed ARE the 5 notable squads at the moment we know of, but please feel free to use whatever you want, the same with the normal squad names. Those are the names taken directly out of Abnett’s writing.

 

I agree with your casting of names idea, it probably is only reserved for larger actions, not for every instance that presents itself.

 

All in all, a neat Marine Chapter.

[SCC]

Thanks Candleshoes, I agree, as you say, each to his own. Your interpretation was a little more certain than mine, so I just wanted to make sure I'd not missed anything that made any of the elements we've discussed more concrete than I'd noticed *shrug*.

 

I also agree that if someone were making an IS army they'd be as justified in adhering to your interpretation of the fluff as my, more conservative, one (i.e. lances, shields, helots/Chapter serfs aiding in battle etc.). Actually I'd probably do it that way because it would be more interesting :)

[Darrell]

I get the feeling I'm missing out on something fun and I should buy this novel as soon as possible.

[Cpt_Tiberius]

hope to pick it up next week. As for playing the IS. the way you described them above, I wonder if you could not use the BT codex? the initiate/neophyte squads would reasonably represent the use of chapter serfs in the battle line, and I think you can mix armament within the squad to represent bolters as well as hoplon/lance marines. Just a thought ...

 

 

-T.

[Candleshoes]

I really like that idea. ATM, I only have the 40k rulebook and the new Dark Angels Codex.... so, it might be a little while before I get out a test list with some ideas for people to go over (probably 1500 pts), as well, decide on the best options to pursue.

 

As for some shield options, the plastic round Empire spearmen shields would work well with some knife work (cutting off the little symbol already on it). Even just ordering a sprue of them and getting half a dozen would add some character to the models.

[Candleshoes]

One other Idea for people who want to play a more regular Iron Snake army, is that, rather than converting most of your models to fit into the theme, take one Veteran squad. This could easily be seen as using a "Notable" squad, and rather than outfitting your army with the unique sea spears and shields, just focus your attention on those 10 marines. It would bring flavour to your army, get the theme across, and also show how the notables are a step above.

[SCC]

hope to pick it up next week. As for playing the IS. the way you described them above, I wonder if you could not use the BT codex? the initiate/neophyte squads would reasonably represent the use of chapter serfs in the battle line, and I think you can mix armament within the squad to represent bolters as well as hoplon/lance marines. Just a thought ...

 

 

-T.

It's your army so if you wanted to use the BT Codex, sure you could. But personally I wouldn't, whilst the Chapter serfs play more of a role in battle than seems common in most Chapters they're in no way front line warriors, certainly not of the calibre of Scouts/Neophtye Marines.

 

If you really wanted to go down the Marine/Hoplite with serf/helot path and weren't happy dragging a TechMarine and his servitors along to rep them I'd probably look at fielding allied IG troopers and keeping them behind the Marines in a supporting position. Even then it's far from perfect.

 

I'd go with Candleshoes on this and create a tac-squad based army around a Notable/Veteran squad and just model some serfs/servitors for the fun of it but have them play no real role on the tabletop.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Several Concerned Cricketers

[quiethood]

Ok, I'm about half way throught the Iron Snake novel, and I must say that it's a great book. I've seen lots of uproar about the short story format, but honestly it's an amazing book, thus far. I just wanted to add my 2 cents on what might be a way to make an IS army. I think the idea of taking a veteran squad to fill the role of a unique squad is a great idea. But after looking at the entry of Veteran Squads in C:SM and comparing it to C:DA, I think it would work better if you used the Dark Angels. One reason being you can give all your vets combat shields and meltabombs. You could feesably use an all infantry based army with 1 or 2 company vets, which to me would feel more right, just by what I've read so far. And you would still get the option of using a Librarian this way. Though I do think that C:SM have better Librarians than DA, but the Vet squads seem more acurate to the IS novel.

The Black Templar idea is good, but Iron Snakes use Librarians, so that would be herasy. :mellow:

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Well the BT codex idea was just a suggestion, and not the way I would do it myself, just throwing out options. I agree that the serfs would be no where near as competant as a scout, but the idea is that their "Attacks" would be from the marines in the squad, who are more efficient because they have someone to reload their weapons as they keep on fighting. But like I said it's just an option...

[Mithras]

Ok... you've sold me on these guys. Love the idea behind them, even if it's merely a cultural background. Need to grab these books!

 

-Mithras

[quiethood]

Ok, I just finished the book, and I must say DANG! Hands down the Iron Snakes rule. I've been pondering how in the world to make a table top version of the army. To be honest with the current rule set I don't think you can make it right on. But, I do have a couple of ideas to run by everyone. If only Purity Above All read that if you take the Vet. Serg upgrade one person in the squad could upgrade to Apothecary. Alas.

Idea #1 (mentioned in previous post)

Use the Dark Angels codex and take only Tactical Squads and Company Veterans for "Notable" squads.

Drawbacks-no Apothecary per squad. not perfect, but it does give you combat shields in a squad or three.

Idea #2

Using codex space marine: After reading the book, it seems that the Tactical Squads, especially Democles, are more like Command Squads than Tactical Squads, with the Vet Serg being more like the equivalent of a captain. So, for "notable" squads you could use a Captain with a 9 man Command Squad with one assault weapon and one Apothecary and even take a company standard as each squad seem to have the equivalent of a stanard bearer per squad. This way you could take 2 "notable" squads per army list. You don't get the combat sheilds per say, but you could model them for looks.

As far as the rest of the army you could take the traits Purity Above All and Trust In Your Battle Brothers, with your disadvantages being Aspire to Glory (only one Terminator squad ever mentioned int the book) and Faithful Unto Death (more emphasis on Tactical Squads this way).

I know it's not perfect, but comments welcome. Personally, the more I think about it, the more I lean towards idea #2.

For Ithika!