Ferrata on: The Female Marine Question

[Ferrata]

Welcome to my article on Female Marines. I don't pretend to have a masters knowledge in this are of science (or any area) and I have attempted to make the principles as simple as possible because I know that not everyone has any scientific background and hopefully everyone will understand. Enjoy the read.

 

Edit: I just realised I say hormone a lot throughout this article, I would like to make it clear that when I say "Hormone Level" I am referring to the Male Hormones required for Marine creation.

 

Female Marines: Possible or Not?

 

The topic of Female Marines has been heavily debated many times across of the board, and presumably even more times on the internet and in person. All of these discussions always end up being divided between two camps, both the extreme opposites of each, black and white opinions. The first takes the stance that universe is massive, and that somewhere and somehow that female marines must be possible. The second stance is that the IA article about the creation of Space Marines says the zygotes are keyed into male hormones and that aspirants must be male. This is my article on the grey area between the two camps.

 

The key statement from the Rites of Initiation article is as follows:

 

They [the recruit] must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types

 

This means the only reason why the recruit must be male is due to the male hormones. Recruits also need to be of a young age, typically between the ages of ten and fourteen, as most people will know, the age which most children begin puberty. A raise in hormone levels stimulate the changes occurring during puberty, thus it can be assumed that for the implantation of organs requires high levels of the male hormones and, as the article states, a natural state of growth (also shown during puberty).

 

The graph below shows the rough principle that as the as hormone levels increase, the probability of a successful implantation of the full set of organs increases. There is a second possibility that an over-concentration of hormones will eventually decrease the probability of success and thus resulting in an optimum level of hormone, but for this article we will presume the basic principle.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Ferrata/Graph1.jpg

 

A chapter would only select a recruit if they have a decent chance of success as gene-seed is extremely scarce. For this article, we will presume that a chapter will only attempt initiation if there is a 95% chance of success. This gives us a minimum level of hormones required for the successful initiation of a recruit. If you compare this theoretical minimum level of hormones required to a rough average of the actual level of hormones found in males during their life, you will see that only during puberty does the hormone level reach above the minimum requirement. The marked area (blue) on the graph is the region of implantation.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Ferrata/Graph2.jpg

 

So far, I have only looked at the basic ideas behind organ implantation into a recruit and have not touched on the female issue. Theses basics are required to understand the principle behind my theory why female marines are possible. Females also have male hormones in their system, but to a much lesser extent. Even though they still experience a raise in levels during puberty, it is never enough to reach the minimum levels required for a successful implant of the organs.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Ferrata/Graph3.jpg

 

If the chapter could artificially raise the levels of male hormones in the female recruit, then it would be possible for the successful implantation of the marine organs. This could be done by either a continuous release of male hormones into the blood stream or injections of highly concentrated male hormones throughout the day, both which can be seen in use today.

 

This all sounds pretty good but we need to consider the side effects of such harsh treatments of the human body. Hormones affect everything in the human body, so the injection of unnatural hormones into the system will obviously wreak havoc from normal development, no more than during puberty. A prime example of the incorrect hormone levels affecting the body can be seen in males who have had their testicles removed due to testicular cancer that can develop breasts without hormone therapy. Presumably, the opposite effects can be seen when a female takes high levels of male hormones. These effects would most likely to include a deepening of their voice, the development of facial hair and the increased expression of body hair, menstrual cycle ceasing, muscle increase and possibly breast reduction. Overall, they would be classified as becoming masculinised.

 

In conclusion, female marines are a possibility if the right hormone therapy is given but they would result in more masculinised females over the babes in power armour most people who favour female marines want to create.

 

A special note on faulty gene-seed. This seems to be the most used reason why chapters have female marines and it fails as a reasonable reason why this would occur. As I said in one thread on this subject “Just because your clutch is gone, doesn't mean your car is going to run on cheese.

[Brother-Librarian Daniel]

It IS possible, but highly unlikely. For one, the organs given to space marines can only be compatible to men, unless they are heavily modified. Plus the space marines are like monks, and if you look there are no female monks. I would like the addition of a female chapter, but i wouldnt like the masculinized look, it doesnt feel right. Heck I dont even like woman body builders -.-, overall, the Adeptus Astartes is a brother-hood. Its not that it cant be done, its that it shouldnt be done.

[battle captain corpus]

Plus the space marines are like monks, and if you look there are no female monks

Ummmm....Nuns?

[Ferrata]

It IS possible, but highly unlikely. For one, the organs given to space marines can only be compatible to men, unless they are heavily modified

I presume you read the article by your closing statement, but you have failed to grasp the concept. As I mentioned in the opening, I want those who have these Black and White views to drop them at the door and open this article and attached discussion with an open mind. The only thing which stops female marines is that organs are keyed into male hormones, and this idea is about artificially injecting the females with said male hormones. This over comes this one clause.

[Brother-Librarian Daniel]

No I do grasp the concept, I am agreeing that it can be done. But Im also saying why would you go through the trouble of injecting male hormones into a female? Im trying not to be black and white, a female space marine would be something new to see. But there would also have to be several other things changed wouldnt there? because the ribcage of a female, for example, is smaller than that of a male. As well as overall body mass. Woudlnt that be another set back?

[Imperial Knight]

I personally think the idea of female marines in the 40K storyline is a joke. I think there alot of players that just want to have a hot chick in power armor, or are just arguing the point for some other motivation. Look its a game do with the marines what you like but just do not try to use real world theories to justify what you want the game says marines are male. If you want female marines and the person your playing doesn't have a problem with it fine but dont go rewriting something that was great the first time around. I believe this issue was forseen by GW and probably the reason there are the SISTERS OF BATTLE, or does someone want to make a male SISTERS OF BATTLE unit, and I do not mean the attachments they have becuase they work for the =I=. Please also do not use real world military arguments to try to justify your logic, especially if you have never been in the military, I will take that even further if you have not been in the combat arms branch of the military. Bottom line is this is a game and do what you will but dont try to change Canon to fit your desires, this is no better then making a 21st primarch or haveing a space wolf sussesor.

[Brother-Librarian Daniel]

I personally think the idea of female marines in the 40K storyline is a joke. I think there alot of players that just want to have a hot chick in power armor, or are just arguing the point for some other motivation. Look its a game do with the marines what you like but just do not try to use real world theories to justify what you want the game says marines are male. If you want female marines and the person your playing doesn't have a problem with it fine but dont go rewriting something that was great the first time around. I believe this issue was forseen by GW and probably the reason there are the SISTERS OF BATTLE, or does someone want to make a male SISTERS OF BATTLE unit, and I do not mean the attachments they have becuase they work for the =I=. Please also do not use real world military arguments to try to justify your logic, especially if you have never been in the military, I will take that even further if you have not been in the combat arms branch of the military. Bottom line is this is a game and do what you will but dont try to change Canon to fit your desires, this is no better then making a 21st primarch or haveing a space wolf sussesor.

 

He is merely stating that it is possible to have female marines, not that he is going to make them or that people should. But I agree, it doesnt fit with the warhammer universe. But he has made several good points to which it is possible, and thats where hes getting at.

[Ferrata]

But there would also have to be several other things changed wouldnt there? because the ribcage of a female, for example, is smaller than that of a male. As well as overall body mass. Woudlnt that be another set back?

There are other concepts which would be required to be altered to fit the female marine creation, this was merely a look at the genetic complications, which is the only GW named problem from creating female marines. With the heavy body modifications that marines go through, including Rib Cage fusion, I doubt these physical differences would come into play. Body Mass can quite easily be altered, and who knows what affects Male Hormones would have on the body mass of a female. I'm not sure, but I believe there is many "male" hormones in muscle building products, so that would show muscle growth.

 

I think there alot of players that just want to have a hot chick in power armor

As you can see, I am hardly suggesting these marines would become hot chicks in power armour.

 

Look its a game do with the marines what you like but just do not try to use real world theories to justify what you want the game says marines are male. If you want female marines and the person your playing doesn't have a problem with it fine but dont go rewriting something that was great the first time around.

This is the very basic extreme look at the game, and to be honest, if I was asked to put my name in one of the Black and White camps, this would be my camp, but I'm trying to be different about this. The 40k fluff is not just a game, the rules are just a game, the fluff is more than just a game. I don't want female marines, I don't want to take the time to model them, but I thought it would be interesting to see how they could occur if someone wanted them. Many people (including myself) have spent time stiffling the creation of others, whilst I usually go along with this when they push past the borders of the fluff, I attempt to think of a good real reason why these things could occur. I'm not rewritting the 40k background, most chapters are all male, maybe all of them are. But some people out there (not including myself) want female marines and I though this was a better way of doing it than the usual idea.

 

I believe this issue was forseen by GW and probably the reason there are the SISTERS OF BATTLE, or does someone want to make a male SISTERS OF BATTLE unit,

Actually, Sisters of Battle are not female marines, they are just normal females (well, heavily trained) in Power Armour, just as Inquisitors in Power Armour are not marines. If someone wants to make Male Sisters of Battle there would be no physical fluff reason why not to bar the Sisters of Battle are female because they are the militant wing of the Eccel. who are not allowed men-under-arms but are allowed women.

 

Please also do not use real world military arguments to try to justify your logic, especially if you have never been in the military, I will take that even further if you have not been in the combat arms branch of the military.

I'm not trying to use Military arguements and I'm not pretending to have been in the army. Hell, the cloest I've been to being in the army is watching Band of Brothers. This is all based on science, which as a science student I feel I have the right to comment on, thought we all can.

 

Bottom line is this is a game and do what you will but dont try to change Canon to fit your desires, this is no better then making a 21st primarch or haveing a space wolf sussesor.

Explain how please. I am not changing the canon, nor am I doing it to fit my desires. All we have is the one line saying that the organs are keyed into Male Hormones. We know Space Wolf succesors and the 21st Primarchs are impossible but I would consider the option if someone came up with a real good reason that makes sense.

 

But I agree, it doesnt fit with the warhammer universe

Which is okay because that is a personal opinion, but at least you have accepted that it is a possibility. Though I kinda like the idea of butch women doing a marines job...

[Imperial Knight]

I grasp what he is saying my point is that this is no better then makeing a 21st primarch or your chapter being one of the missing 2 legions, or a space wolf successor chapter. But ok here is even more reasons.

 

-Why what is the point of going through so much extra work to make a female space marine, it is definately not because your chapter was decimated and you need to rebuild quickly, because this would simply take to much extra time and effort, plus there is no doubt going to be a much higher failure rate, and even with the implants they will be physically smaller and weeker than regular Marines. To add the real world military arguement, I have spent 11 years as an infantryman, and have yet to met more then maybe 4 female soldiers that could hang with the males in most case, especially when it came to physical labor, ruk marching and willingness to be morally neutral when it was time to fight and yes kill the enemy, and thats also 3 combat tours speaking there. Are there women out there that can yes but there are definately few and far between...now back to fluff reasons.Heck the =I= investigates chapters for anything even remotely out of wack you dont think they would tear a chapter apart for doing this without the highlords permission can you say exterminatus boys and girls I can they would almost certainly be labled heritics.

[Ferrata]

Yes, you are correct that on our world males are more physically gifted than females on average, but why? Thousands of years of being the hunter/warrior. What if the Marines recruit from a planet which is based on the mythological Amazons were it was the females who do the fighting and hunting. A couple of thousand years of the men staying at home or even being killed after the sperm has been removed (which males have at birth) and women are suddenly more physically gifted than males. Marine chapter comes in, finds this source of good, constant and healthy recruits and bang we have a female chapter. The Imperial Guard is full of women, the Imperium doesn't care who fights and dies for it as long as the fight and die well (most of the time). Whilst it may be Xenophobic, repressive and overall quite ugly, the one thing the Imperium isn't is Sexist (or descrimiative in anyway) to who dies for it.

[Divergent Reality]

in my mind the most likley to attempt such feats in the 40k world would be the admech. they have enough closets and hidden labs and spare time to attempt all kinds of heresy. yes, the high lords would be mad if/when they find out. but with how needed the admech is, it would be an "oops, sorry about that guys" apology with a slap on the wrist.

[Barret]

The two most common arguments against female Marines have already been at least mentioned so far. First the scientific/genetic reasons and the organizational reasons. I want to talk about the latter first.

 

Space Marines are based on fraternal (male-only) organizations like monasteries, Knightly Orders and, indeed, pretty much all armies or armed bodies up until modern times. The principal reasons for this gender delineation in real-world organizations are physical and mental capability, and sexualization.

 

The physical and mental capability issue can largely be assumed to be rendered moot by the process of creating a Space Marine: hypno- and hormone-therapy to increase aggression and reduce unhelpful responses to threatening situations (like fear) for the mental, and the rebuilding and enhancing of the body into the seven-foot-tall warrior gods we all know and love. An argument can be made that female Marines would never be able to match the overall strength of a male Space Marine because men naturally develop and can support more muscle mass. Firstly, I think this would again be rendered moot as a Space Marine is only vaguely human in the first place, and secondly, if that logic is followed, then only men of African descent should be made into Marines, as they are, on average, able to develop more muscle mass than caucasians. Besides the Sisters of Battle are very nearly the equal of Space Marines on the tabletop, and they have only their equipment and training to rely on. They don't have any genetic augmentation.

 

The other issue is sexualization. Fraternal organizations exist the way they do because it was and is thought that mixing the genders would distract from and be counterproductive to whatever the organization's purpose was, whether that's prayer and contemplation or vigorously thrusting your big, rigid spear into another man's flesh. Space Marines, as we all know, are mentally and physically de-sexualized. They have none of the genetic and biological drive to reproduce that we mere humans struggle with all our lives. That facility and drive has been stripped from them. There's nothing to suggest that would be any less true with mixed-gender Chapters. After all, a car with no engine won't drive no matter what you park next to it.

 

 

I think the biggest barrier, logically and fluff-wise, to female Space Marines is the why of it. I think that, rationally and logically, we can all agree that the hormone barrier can be overcome with enough effort made. Thus, the question becomes not can female Marines be made, but would female Marines be made. After all, in a society of trillions where a vast number of men cannot be considered necessary to the continued functioning of that society and a large number of those unnecessaries have the training or experiences that make them ideal candidates for the transformation into Marines, why would voluntarily expend all that extra effort into making female Space Marines in what is likely a more expensive and probably more failure-prone process? It's like the British army of the 18th and 19th century. Why the hell would they give all the incentives that modern western armed forces do to their enlisted ranks when, at the time, poverty, desperation, court orders and adventurism forced thousands into service? Today, the armed forces have to offer things like scholarships, training, pensions, and all the other benefits if they are to have a chance at competing with other career paths because now everybody has a choice, where before so many didn't.

 

With that in mind, there are only two reasons I can think of why a Chapter would choose to induct and create female Space Marines (ie, when their choices were limited by outside forces). The first is need. A good example of this would be Kenton Kilgore's Fighting Tigers of Veda. His DIY is replete with female Space Marines, but the initial reasons are basic need for survival. Early in their history, the Fighting Tigers were decimated and, if they were to have any hope of continuing to exist, need a large number of recruits and fast. Thus, from their militaristic recruiting base, they took both male and female candidates in an effort to bring their numbers up to snuff. This turned into tradition, as so many things do, and now they are a very heavily gender-mixed Chapter.

 

The other reason is some form of tradition and/or obligation. To continue using the example of the Tigers, they continue to recruit females into the Chapter, despite the fact that they no longer need to. Why? Because it has become a traditional imperative. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Another possible reason could be a Chapter that recruits from a matriarchal world and is thus infused with that culture. Honestly, I can't think of a lot of reasons why a Chapter would expend the extra effort and risk without that basic, driving need and removal of choice being a part of the equation. It's not sexism or misogyny, I think, just basic economics. If you don't have to spend extra for the same return, why would you?

[StratoKhan]

Ferrata, there's only one problem - The passage you quote from clearly states -

 

They [the recruit] must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types

 

Your argument completely ignores the 2nd part of the phrase, that I have highlighted. Granted, this might be a nonsense term, one of those sci-fi isms that don't mean anything, yet in the fictional context you'd have to take it into account.

 

I agree with a lot of points however.

 

People don't want female marines, they don't care as much about the sex of the Marine as they care about the gender. They don't want female marines as much as they want feminine marines. Which is what bugs me about the female marine issue. Why not just Sisters of Battle? I would prefer it if Sisters of Battle were less 'sexed-up' too, but that's just me I guess.

 

If anyone has seen the effects of anabolic steroids on ex-USSR female Olympic athletes they'd agree that the female 'babe' Marines, as you call them, would not be the outcome of such treatments.

 

So here's the point I would like to make, perhaps a bit off topic - female marines could be possible. But - hormone injection would be a complicated extra step to a procedure that is already notoriously difficult. In a galaxy populated by trillions of humans, there is no scarcity of male subjects. The extra step is illogical.

[Imperial Knight]

StratoKhan I 100% agree with you, plus I have to say I have read many fluff pieces including the Fighting Tigers and I am sorry I have not found one yet that justifies it. Plain and simply if the needed recruits that bad to bolster there numbers they still would not take females becuase of the high failure rate, and plain and simple extra work. Plus they would have to have the resources to regularly replicate the hormones it just does not make logical sense except for someone to just be honest and say, heck I just wanted female marines and by the way want the to look feminie, please, again I agree with StratoKhan if you want a female army that has male attachments then just play witch hunters and have a Sisters army , heck if you even want to make an extremely monastic marine chapter that fights along side the sisters regularly cool but anything else is just ridiculous. Infinate space popluated by trillions of Humans there is just no logical reason to do it, even in 40K fluff.

[SeerBrun]

Plus the space marines are like monks, and if you look there are no female monks

Ummmm....Nuns?

I'm glad someone said that, lol. It was the first thing that popped into my head. In other news, "there are no female waiters."

 

For the record, though, I think most implimentations of female space marines are silly, espcially since they play to the sexuality of women when in all likelihood, a woman would fit just fine in power armor, extra bits and all. I don't think you can claim there's enough of a genetic difference between men and women that space marines simply wouldn't work. Hormone therapy and all would make up for that. There's a good question to WHY you would want to do that... but... yeah.

[Marshal Rohr]

:cuss......... :confused:

[Dazzo]

I agree with the above. Look it could be done, the AM are total :confused: but yeah im sure with the entire resources of Mars and every forgeworld in the imperium they could easily manage to come up with female marines, but why bother divert that much effort when there are plenty of males knocking about. There are literally no decent arguments to justify this, unless every planet in the imperium lost all their men then women would not ever and I mean ever be chosen to become marines. Leave it at the door, I'm sorry but why not leave at the door the stupid superstitions the AM hold about technology, or that air superiority isnt considered important by high command, or that the las gun is the best weapon for the guard. No. I understand your point of view ferrata I really do but it can only ever be a discussion about possibilities not realities and the 40k reality is power armoued women are called the SoB not marines. Sorry, not even my vastly liberal mindset will accept it. :P

[The Rose Princes]

since this is an ALL marine board, let me just say that there is nothing stopping anyone from making Chaos Marines who had the entire legion transformed to the opposite gender by the warp, a chaos entity/god, or a spell gone wrong on the scale of what happened to The Thousand Sons.

 

It's the Warp.... have free reign.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..... and no they don't automatically have to be Slaanesh!

[Wolffje]

A lesson in basic genetics:

 

The XY sex-determination system is a well-known sex-determination system. It is found in humans, most other mammals, some insects (Drosophila) and some plants (Ginkgo). In the XY sex-determination system, females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), and are called the homogametic sex. Males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), and are called the heterogametic sex.

 

The XY sex determination system was first described independently by Nettie Stevens and Edmund Beecher Wilson in 1905.

 

Wikipedia linky

 

First, this means that emperor like all other men is most likely XY. So his chromosome set would include a male Y and a female X. So that means that the gene seed must have an XY combination to even work on normal men. YY gene seed would not work on men either, there needs to be one X and one Y. Second, it means that gene seed has both a female X chromosome as well as a male Y chromosome. So that means that like all of the rest of us emperor must have had a mother. The fluff did state he was born. All the shamans reincarnated into an otherwise normally conceived human body.

 

To make the gene seed work on women it would be a matter of removing the Y chromosome and duplicating the X chromosome to make the gene seed XX. Unmodified XY gene seed will not work on women but modified XX gene seed will. So even with hormone treatment XY gene seed will simply NOT work on women, no matter much you drug those girls up on male hormones. An interesting note is that XX gene seed would no longer work on men unless the Y chromosome would be somehow reintroduced and the second X chromosome removed.

 

With some amount of tampering the gene seed can be altered. What that would involve I can’t say. Would the emperor have been capable of doing this? Most certainly. Would the Adeptus Mechanicus have been able to experiment with it successfully during the 13th and 21st founding? Perhaps. If so, could this information have been leaked out as so many records were lost? Possibly. Could a space marine chapter with access to such records replicate the process? I’d say it could be possible apart from the obvious charges of heresy that would undoubtedly follow if such tampering would be discovered. But that it is forbidden and considered heresy does NOT make the process impossible by itself, it would just decrease the chance of anyone trying it, but in the end someone would eventually try it. There are millions of worlds and many place to hide such experiments and the research facilities required for it. In the end it would come down to one simple question: how desperate do you need to be to even consider trying this?

 

So the existence of a female space marine would require an alteration of the gene seed from XY to XX. But it would not be impossible as at least one the chromosomes in the gene seed is female already.

[Wolffje]

Another interesting question that rose for me from Ferrata's story is: what would happen if you dope up a 30 year old man on male hormones and implant him with the geneseed? Would the hormone treatment work with adult men? Unlike with women additional male hormones do not adversively affect the male body, well aside from an increased desire to do some head bonking, or at least no adverse effects I can think of. As long the male in question is not too old that his body has started to detoriate, I wonder if implantation in a mature man would be possible with additional hormone treatment.

[Sword Brother Jeramakus]

...and if you look there are no female monks.

 

Did you feel that? That's me virtually slapping you for your ignorance. Of course there are female monks. What are they teaching you kids in school these days? :pinch:

[st.germaine]

One or two of you might have noticed my sig over the last several years so it should be patently clear where I stand on the issue. My Sunhawks were my first foray into the 40K universe and were created when I was absolutely fixated on Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series. If I had not been involved with her world at the time, I probably wouldn't have considered female marines but that's not the way of the world. Looking back on what I developed for the story of their genesis I'm quite aware that a direct usurping of Misty's world wasn't the cleanest concept for creating a chapter but it solved the male-only issue for me quite cleanly, using the psychic healers of Valdemar who can manipulate the body at the cellular level to overcome this difficulty. Their culture's ruling structure and military is completely gender mixed so the only source of stock for rebuilding the chapter would not understand why women weren't an option as candidates once it was clear that their healers could aid the apothecaries in modifying the process to make it viable for females. Over 90% casualties and being out of contact with the Imperium would have left the survivors with no choice. Women are in.

 

As it turns out the use of psychic games to solve problem isn't actually necessary as Ferrata has pointed out. Hormone therapy could accomplish the task more simply (plot-wise) and still fit in the the tech of the 40K universe without blending universes.

 

Regarding the tissue-type comment, I'm not in the medical field so I make no claims to expertise on this issue but I do recall seeing pieces on organ transplants on the tube. In a number of them I recall seeing that donors for several different types of organs discussed donors of both sexes for a particular patient. This indicates to me that the tissue-type statement was simply a GW writer throwing verbiage in order to make the process sound viable without having the faintest idea what he was blathering about.

 

I agree that the process of creating a female marine through hormone therapy would create something that most of us would not recognize as feminine. Moreover space marine armor would hide even Anna Nicole Smith's superstructure. That's not the point. Most of us don't have the least problem with the exaggeration that GW uses across the board in almost everything. This game is in what is frequently known as "heroic scale". The bodies of GW figures are not realistic in proportion, the weapons are no where near realistic scale, and vehicles aren't even in the same scale as the figures. It's called artistic license. Big guns sell. Nuns with boobs on their armor sell. Eldar and Tau females, who are even more slight than human females, have protrusions from their armor even though there is even less likelihood of their needing the room; they sell. Why? Because people expect female torsos to be different than male torsos and this is a product line that lives on exaggeration. Frankly it may be more than customer expectation; from a distance when looking at the tabletop the exaggeration makes it very clear which figures are male and which are female without picking them up to do so. I want my female Sunhawks to be women not troglodytes. Period end of report. Nothing sexist or perverse about it. The argument about boobs on armor is a distraction in this genre. It's an argument that really carries very little weight in the face of the vast array of exaggerated attributes on most figures in this game. :pinch:

 

Finally I have to agree with Wolffje's idea regarding applying this treatment to mature males. I suspect that adolescents are used for the reasons that Ferrata postulated initially regarding hormone levels. It's just been done for so long that they don't consider any other options.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I think there is another couple important things we have to consider.

 

1) Power armour doesnt actually require the marine implants to work. We know this for sure, no excuses. Inquistors and the Sisters of Battle both wear it and both dont have all the implants. (and if Im not mistaken they have none of the implants.)

 

2) the only real differences between an imperial guardsmen and a marine in power armour are:

a) Armour

:) Weapons

c) Training (WS, BS, Ld)

d) Physical Attributes (I, S, T)

 

this is partly fixed by the implants and partly by training. We can see regular guards men get the BS4 and Get the WS4, some of them can ever get the LD 8 &9 so lets assume that at least 1 in 100 or so can reach these levels with enough training.

 

so now we have

Armour which is possible to replace, weapons which are possible to replace, Training which is at least semi easily possible to correct and finaly Physical attributes. This is where it gets a little iffier.

 

We do know that the initiative of guardsmen can reach 4 how ever. Various special characters, Priest, Commisars, Some of the bigger imperial Guard commanders and some of gaunts ghosts can reach Initiative 4. So again Im going to go out on a limb abit and say that at least 1 in 1000 average humans can reach: WS 4 BS 4. Ld 9 and I 4 So we hit S And T the big hurdles.

 

We do know, that at least 1 person in the whole imperium has hit a S characteristic of 4(for those who dont know himTry again Bragg) . Which means we know what? At least the odd human has the potential to reach equal physical attributes. Lets make an assumption that Tanith had roughly 5 billion people on it. Lets say 1 in three worlds of about the size of Tanith will have an individual with the potential to have both T and S of 4. So lets say at least roughly 1 in 15 billion.

 

So 1 in 15 billion can meet the physical Attribute and one in a 1000 (I would bet a hell of alot higher on these above average individuals). The imperium is thousands of planets many of them Hive Worlds (And Im not super up on the fluff but Im betting Hive worlds have around 50-60 billion people on average dont they?) So on every hive world in the imperium we can assume that there is going to be on average 3 people with the potential to be a Marine without implants, AT LEAST! I would be willing to bet there are at least 1000 hive worlds (or total equivalent in smaller planets etc) in the imperium so thats roughly 3000 Marine Equivalents at least. And there is usually a rough 50% split between gender so thats again 1500 Women Marine Equivalents (At least in my theory).

 

SO at least from my ideas we can conclude that throughout the imperium if they looked hard enough they could probably find at least enough potential Marines (minus Implants) to create a whole chapter. Now they probably would not do it but its something to think about. Not to mention they would have low Life spans, with large amounts of time training and have the same mortality rate of Marines so resupplying the chapter would probably be all but impossible but for a short term campaign where they need to do something without normal marines for some wierd inexplicable reason.

 

Now this theory has plenty of plot holes and stupidities in it but it has enough for it to be good enough for some one to consider a basis.

 

This is how ever something that should be looked at for Chaos Space marine players where any one can be blessed by those crazy ole beings known as the chaos gods or mutated by that odd thing called the warp to get the physical Strength and toughness required to be the equivalents and where the Demonforge worlds can build the armour and Weapons. While Traitor Guard legions can gain the experience necessary as well.

 

My End thoughts for those that want to skip my long boring rambling arguments. Yes they are possible, no they dont necessarily have implants. Will they be super hot babes of the female persuasion? Unlikely but theres always a slim chance I suppose. Its more likely for Chaos Marines to do it cause of go go Chaos Powers! And yes I can picture the typical horny male view of the super babe in the bad ass space marine armour and with those mad skillz they have but chance are they would be wearing the black and pink of Slaanesh, supporting his will and working towards his goals.

 

I might be tempted to make a reasonable female Slaanesh Dedicated Cult as a combat patrol (And by Reasonable I mean not just bright pink or purple marines and not with giant female parts sticking out of their armour I mean regular Power armoured Chaos marines but with Female heads and perhaps a few other banners or something that would suggest their nature as being female (Though how I have no idea))

[StratoKhan]

This indicates to me that the tissue-type statement was simply a GW writer throwing verbiage in order to make the process sound viable without having the faintest idea what he was blathering about.

 

That's very possible indeed. =)

[battle captain corpus]

Aside from the fact that many people here have extremely blinkered views on female space marines, their arguement basically revolving around "Yeah well boys are bigger, yeah!"...

Look at it this way, if GW had introduced the SOB as a SM chapter instead of a religious military wing would we have complained as much? since so may take what GW says as gospel then probably not. Heck they've changed other fluff just as drastically and weve swallowed it! And at the end of the day, they're just minis...you want legal female marines? Slaneesh is my answer...