Ferrata on: The Female Marine Question

[Darrell]

I, too, would like to know the explanation of the "male tissue" half of the original statement. Ferrata was able to provide a somewhat reasonable hypothesis behind how female marines could be made, though he mentioned nothing about the possibility of this "male tissue" and the implications it holds. Granted, we could just write it off as a bunch of nonsense written by a GW writer, but if we go down that road where does it end? Power weapons, melta guns, lascannons, plasma weaponry; all of it is nonsense written by GW. Caseless .75 ammunition? Nonsense! Do we just start tossing all the fluff left and right, except the parts that are 100% grounded in reality? We have to work with what we're given, and the male tissue is clearly there. Why ignore it when it could add to the discussion?

 

Going further, while we can say for certain that a woman hyped up on testosterone undergoes some heavy changes to make her more masculine, can it make her masculine enough? She may have more facial hair, a deeper voice, her breasts may diminish...but could she conceive a child? Would she suddenly sprout a scrotum and the sperm? Could her testosterone actually be pumped so high, that she could be treated as a man for the geneseed's purposes? And even if it were possible, would someone really want such recruits for Space Marines?

 

The only thing I can think of to compare this to is steroids, which some women bodybuilders take to increase their muscle mass, and acts as a male hormone. I checked out "effects of steroids on females" on Google, and came up with the following side-effects:

 

For both sexes

Possible side effects for males and females include the following:

 

* High blood pressure and heart disease

* Liver damage and cancers

* Stroke and blood clots

* Urinary and bowel problems, such as diarrhea

* Headaches, aching joints, and muscle cramps

* Nausea and vomiting

* Sleep problems

* Increased risk of ligament and tendon injuries

* Severe acne, especially on face and back

* Baldness

 

Females

Since steroids act as a male hormone, females may experience the following side effects:

 

* Reduced breast size

* Enlarged clitoris (a very sensitive part of the genitals)

* Increase in facial and body hair

* Deepened voice

* Menstrual problems

 

Emotional effects

Steroids also can have the following effects on the mind and behavior:

 

* "Roid rage" - severe, aggressive behavior that may result in violence, such as fighting or destroying property

* Severe mood swings

* Hallucinations - seeing or hearing things that are not really there

* Paranoia - extreme feelings of mistrust and fear

* Anxiety and panic attacks

* Depression and thoughts of suicide

* An angry, hostile, or irritable mood

 

So, what could we expect a female marine hyped up on testosterone to act like? Physically, they're not going to be doing very well. High blood pressure, heart problems (This may be offset by having another heart, or compounded as both hearts have problems), Liver damage and spots, diarrhea (How fun would that be all sealed up in power armor?), aching joints, muscle cramps, increased likelihood of tendon injury (Running around a battlefield fighting huge aliens compounded with this would mean female Marines would be taking heavy injuries), severe mood swings and increased violent behavior, hallucinations, paranoia, panic attacks, depression, and overall pissed off at the world. And this in addition to whatever insanity-inducing, body harming, violent tendencies regular male Marines pick up along the way!

 

Sound like the kind of people you want to load up with the best armor and weaponry the Imperium could provide? Set loose in an autonomous organization where they can pretty much do what they want, when they want it, and essentially only answer to themselves for?

 

I'd also like to point out that all the humans you're encountering in the galaxy in the 41st millenium were originally from Earth, albeit from 10,000 years ago. We should keep that in mind when supposing that some amazonian society would be evolved that could give us a 180 degree in role reversal compared to what we're accustomed to on Earth. Is 10,000 years enough for women to become men and men to become women? Surely women would behave in a more "masculine" fashion and men in a more "feminine", but physically I can't imagine they would be that different than we have today. Most of the changes would be of a mental nature. Sure, women would look bigger and depending on the role they play in society, men may be smaller. However, simply having muscles doesn't mean the geneseed is going to work on you. Granted, there are some situations where human physiology has undergone massive changes in the future (Such as humans on planets that look almost Ogryn, or Ogryn themselves), but those kinds of differences come from the effects of gravity rather than society roles. Beyond that, though, Ogryn have evolved to the point where they aren't even human anymore; could a woman that has undergone these kinds of physiological changes suffer to the point where the geneseed wouldn't function simply because she has changed so much?

 

Another interesting fact is that geneseed doesn't work 100% in men, either. Even with the very sex the geneseed was designed for, it still fails sometimes, producing deformed monsters or gibbering lunatics. If it doesn't have a perfect success rate for men, how much worse would the success rate be for women pumped up to be kind of like men? Much, much greater would be my guess. You'd also have to take into consideration the kinds of effects it would have on your recruiting populace. Women are much more necessary for reproduction than men, as women can only carry one set of offspring at a time while men can essentially pump them out as fast as they feel like. You could have, say, one man per 20 women and be just fine as far genetics goes. So, could recruiting from the female populace of a planet, combined with an increased failure rate, have a negative effect on the genepool of a world? Probably not, but it's another possible danger of going that route.

 

So, really, would it be worth it to have female marines? Suppose it is possible that a woman could be pumped with enough testosterone that the geneseed would be able to work on her. Real life examples show us that women that undergo such changes suffer heavily for it, physically, mentally and emotionally. Fluff tells us that being a Space Marine only brings on more physical, mental and emotional burdens, and that even men (The sex geneseed was made and designed to work on, even in the high point of the Emperor's direct control of Mankind) don't always come through intact. I think it would be fair to say that even testosterone-injected women would be less likely to have the geneseed work than an actual male, so you're already upping the amount of failures. Combine this with bad health problems, a severely fragile mental state and a suicidal depression...

 

I can't imagine a Chapter would choose to go through THAT much more trouble when they could just as well go five lightyears down the road and find another homeworld where there isn't an amazonian tribe. You'd also have to consider that Chapters are already a fraternal organization, so the likelihood of sexual discrimination is high. All they've known is male recruits, the entire history of the Imperium is nothing but male Space Marines. Why would they suddenly go "Hey guys, let's give these girls a go, I bet they can be mean too"?

 

Is it possible? The best anyone can say is maybe. Even if it is possible, you're looking at Marines that are simply physically and mentally not as fit to become Astartes, with an increased failure rate (If it's even possible the geneseed will work), a more prominent effect on the recruiting world of choice, more time involved in the creation of the Marines, a higher likelihood that when they finally become Marines they're going to be dangerously unstable (God forbid you implant Blood Angels geneseed into a Chapter like this). I just can't see it being remotely worth going through all the extra time and effort it would require, and still getting what I could only imagine would be an inferior soldier if they survive the treatment.

 

So, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with my guns that female Marines are just not going to happen (At least successfully). The fluff itself says it only works on men, the science says any female recruits are going to be much more trouble than they'd be worth in the end.

 

Aside from the fact that many people here have extremely blinkered views on female space marines, their arguement basically revolving around "Yeah well boys are bigger, yeah!"...

 

I think that's hardly the case, and to insult people's arguments by dumbing their comments down to that one comment is unnecessary. There are much better, and many more, arguments than "Well boys are bigger, yeah!", though that certainly is one argument and an inescapable one.

[Ferrata]

To be honest, I was expecting several large holes to be poked in this thoery but as I hoped, on the large part, we are having a more mature and serious discussion about the Female Marine question than the usual thread. All in all, that is a good thing (even if you all band together and say "Ferrata, your idea is idiotic" as long as you have a good reason why, I'm happy with that.). The question seems to boil down to two main questions:

 

Would it be physically possible to create female marines?

 

If so, why would they do it?

 

Barret and Darrell both have good posts on the second question.

 

StratoKhan, for some reason my mind did totally block that part of the statement. I do not believe there is a difference between male and female tissue bar the obvious areas. Instead of ignoring this as a GW writer just throwing words around, lets look at what this could be in the 40k universe, going on the article is an in character article. The Imperium is not the up-to-date on science, so like they believe in Machine Spirit (which could/is probably a computer with semi-advanced AI), they could just believe that tissue types are different. This would still make the issue complicated as it would require someone to overcome a belief to attempt to insert the gene-seed into a female (which goes onto question two). I think Darrell's point is flawed though, as all the mentioned things are technology and not biology. Technology can become more advanced, and as long as it is logical (and making 40k Sci-Fi), the basic biology of the human race isn't going to advance that much to develop individual sex tissue types (mainly because this would be counter productive to medicine).

 

Bobmakenzie, your thoery is flawed as it is based on the game-stats of the individual units and not on the fluff of them. If the game followed the fluff, Marines would be much stronger and the difference between them and Guardsmen would be much greater. No normal human could match a marine for any physical attribute.

 

To all those who are saying "Don't do, it can't happen. If you want to do female marines, you are being stupid", please don't post again unless you can come up with a good reason why female marines are not physically possible.

[Spacefrisian]

Plus the space marines are like monks, and if you look there are no female monks

Ummmm....Nuns?

 

Ummmm Sisters of battle

 

(Somebody?)

[Darrell]

For the technological issues, it's also important to note that the Imperium's technological ability is degrading, not advancing. Mars isn't as good as it used to be, and Mankind is still struggling to find lost pieces of technology that were once commonplace. I do note, though, that the Space Marines (as far as I know) have always been men, even dating back to the Great Crusade. This, as I recall, is the height of the Imperium's technology with the Emperor holding the reigns. If the very pinnacle of Mankind, bordering on a god, couldn't get the geneseed to work in a female, the chances of it working 10,000 years later when the technology has degraded so far are very slim, if not impossible. If females could be marines as well as men, why did the Emperor ignore that possibility? I don't recall any examples of him being sexist, and using women would have allowed him to essentially double the number of Astartes at his disposal.

 

Out of curiosity, which part of my argument did you find flawed?

[Ferrata]

I, too, would like to know the explanation of the "male tissue" half of the original statement. Ferrata was able to provide a somewhat reasonable hypothesis behind how female marines could be made, though he mentioned nothing about the possibility of this "male tissue" and the implications it holds. Granted, we could just write it off as a bunch of nonsense written by a GW writer, but if we go down that road where does it end? Power weapons, melta guns, lascannons, plasma weaponry; all of it is nonsense written by GW. Caseless .75 ammunition? Nonsense! Do we just start tossing all the fluff left and right, except the parts that are 100% grounded in reality? We have to work with what we're given, and the male tissue is clearly there. Why ignore it when it could add to the discussion?

This section. Saying that if we write off the "male tissue" as GW writer just writing some random stuff we could write of Power Weapons etc. That was the entire thing about technology. Everything else you said was great, I was considering looking into how steriods affect females, but I wasn't sure how much male hormones they contain.

[Darrell]

Oh, I see what you mean now. I can see your point, I was simply saying that we should go with what we are given, as if we ignore it or add more to it then I think we are, on some level, trying to bend what we're reading to make it work for or against the idea. The author may have meant the obvious male tissue, perhaps the presence of sperm is necessary for whatever reason, but simply used a generalized "Male tissue" was used instead of the more blunt term. Perhaps it is just some writer making up nonsense.

 

The fluff is there, though, so I think it should at least be considered in the argument. Though certainly I could see how it would be hard to explain how male-specific tissue could suddenly appear (Again, outside the obvious). Of course, I also find it hard to see how a body can absorb something like ceramite, or how sweating can protect you from the vacuum of space, but I try to go with the fluff as it is written. If I think about it too much, I'd probably end up hurting myself. :rolleyes:

 

EDIT:

 

Also, I tried to find an exact amount of male hormone present in steroids, but all I could manage to find was the side-effects of their use, and that male hormones are present. Couldn't find anything about the specific amount.

[Imperial Knight]

Look this whole thing is ridiculous you can make all the arguements in the world, the FLUFF SAY THEY MUST BE MALE BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

is it scientifically possible maybe but all the extra steps are completely unnessassary and there has been no fluff to justify it not even the dire need to rebuild a chapter one becuase it would take so much additional time and resources plus potential higher failure rate there is no warrant for it no matter how you spin it. Slaneesh is the only viable way ands that isrealy stretching it. if you dont like the fluff, well tough. either,

A. Stop playing

B. Wait for it to change

C. Play SOB

D. Get a job with GW and change it

as I have said before this is the fluff deal with it, this is no better then other DIY violations and if this is allowed then Heck, we might as well allow and stop repremanding people for the 21st primarch or heck even a 43rd , space wolf succesors etc...

[Ferrata]

Actually, there is that one line which says they must be male. How is this ridiculous? I understand your stance, and in a Black and White world I would be argueing on your side, I'm just trying to have a little fun, a little serious conversation and push our minds to try and think outside the box. I don't want to create a female chapter, I don't want to play Sisters of Battle or anything like that, I just want to have a semi-scientific and mature conversation. Everyone else is attempting to do this, yet you seem to be the only one who isn't really thinking about it and falling back on the extreme view. Also, Slaanesh (or any of the Chaos gods) is one of the best ways to describe it because it falls back on the old arguement that "a god did it" which is perfectly fine, especially in the 40k world were things like this do happen. Though, this really rules out the chapter being a loyal follower of the Emperor.

 

So have we got it like this so far, basically it would be physically possible but there might be some complications if we keep digging into this but a reasonable reason why a chapter would do this is still out of our grasps.

 

Darrell, you are posting the type of posts I was hoping to get. I suppose it comes down to the drawing the line where 40k is Sci-Fi and Space Fantasy, though maybe the secretion of some chemical could protect you from a vacuum if it was able to resist the outward pressure of your body.

[Imperial Knight]

Here is the thing, and I am sorry if I keep reverting back to black and white with this issue it is hard not to. I agree that it is a scientific possibility yes, basic genetic and hormone therapy would be able to occasionally produce a female capible of being a Marine. Now when I say that I will have to caveat it by saying most likely only during the time of the empreror himself. Many of the secrets involved with the process went to the Golden Throne with him. I do not believe the AM would be able to pull of very many if any at all succesfull trials in the current time line. To much knowledge about machines and engineering was "lost". The AM can barely keep the current war machines going let alone backwards engineer the process that only the Emperor himself knew all the procedures for. Otherwise they would have fixed the Blood Angel and Space Wolf Geneseed and re-engineered the Bletchers and Sus-am Glands for the IF. Not to mention the simple fact there are just to many suitible males for them to even warrant trying. And again why add complications to an already complicated process. I totally accept the Slaneesh or chaos option, that is the nature of chaos to infect and go against the "norms", with the daemon influence yes but regular Marines of the Imperium no, there is just no need....not even in the dire rebuilding issue that a few fluff lines have tried. Scientifically YES, fluff wise NO. Now could GW come along and change the fluff of course they can but I just dont see it happening. Now the other issue with the Hormone increase, unless they continue to recieve the hormone therapy the rest of there lives they will revert somewhat, there estrogen levels will eventually rise to almost normal ranges without continued treatments which could and most likely would lead to lower levels of aggresive ness etc.... it is just natural, once you stop useing a substance your body will try to detox itself and compensate so again continued hormonal therapy would just be another additional issue there is just no need or resources for a chapter to deal with.

[Ferrata]

See, that was a better post (bar the little side comment about GW). Now, the Imperium understands hormone therapy (they use it on Marines all the time) and they know about the male hormones (going on that article is in character), so it is not the greatest leap to believe that someone in the Imperium has thought about hormone therapy on women. Your problem comes with the "why", which to be honest, isn't the main target of this thread. People can come up with their own reasons, and it would take forever and a day to go through ever single possibility and decide how likely it is. A chapter could find themselves isolated on a female high world where men are only treated as sperm banks, or one of the hundreds of possibilites. Lets focus on the actual process, Could the Imperium make female marines if they wanted so, and if so how good would these marines be compared to male marines?

 

The thing about their levels dropping, this could lead to organ rejection and thus constant hormone therapy would be required. If it did not lead to organ rejection, then we might have a chapter of more calm headed marines. Unless Male Hormones inhibit Female Hormones (which I do not believe so, I haven't heard of women missing their period because they go too angry one night), then their Estrogen levels would never be affected, just their Male Hormone levels.

[Aurelius Rex]

There has been much discussion of hormone therapy being a route for female marines here, but given that the Imperium can't even get it to work with older, non-adolescent males in the 40th millennium, the chance that they could push it past that level of difficulty to get it to work on females (of whatever age) seems to make this staggeringly unlikely.

 

Add to this the unadventurous, hidebound, superstitious nature of the Adeptus Mechanicus / Imperium / Apothecaries of the Adeptus Astartes, and I can't honestly see that this is something that would fly. They have neither the technical know-how to do this, the reason to put the effort into doing so when it already works on (some) males, and the likely response from the rest of the astartes that the holy geneseed of their primarchs had been 'sullied' would I imagine, be extreme.

 

From a narrative point of view, any major introduction or deviation introduced to a DIY chapter needs to address the following points:

 

1) Why would they do it?

2) Could they do it?

3) What reaction would it have from the wider Imperium? (Astartes, High Lords, =][=)

 

On point 1, you would need a very good reason why they would try to do it. That is not to say one couldn't be found, just that it has to be believable.

 

Point 2 seems to be the main thrust of the thread, and given the fictional, pseudoscience nature of 'geneseed' it seems to be difficult at best to try to apply knowledge of 20th century medical science of hormones (endocrinology?) to the subject. There are far too many unknowns, and I think it is unlikely that Rick Priestly knew much about endocrinology when he first wrote about the subject of geneseed back in the late eighties. :tu: However, given that knowledge and understanding of the subject have only got worse since the Emperor created the first marines, to the point where only the very easiest subjects (pre / adolescent males) can be transformed successfully, an explanation for this would have to be staggeringly inventive not to puncture suspension of belief.

 

For point 3, the paranoid, witchburning nature of the Imperium has to be addressed. Would the chapter really get off the ground, and how would it be treated? Would it be met with a hearty exterminatus?

 

 

Of course, you could just ignore the questions above and say, as has been mentioned above, 'A god / wizard did it', be it Slaanesh or Fabius Bile. Warpcraft gets past questions one and two, and as traitors three can be waived as well. The Cursed founding is also used as a catch-all getout clause for all manner of wacky stuff, and given the side effects posted above of steroid treatments there seems any number of reasons for the chapter to be 'cursed' and have plenty of defects. Even then Q3 still needs to be addressed, although hopefully the 'Inquisitor Deux ex Machina' method of plot-hole filling could be avoided.

 

 

Perhaps this was not what was intended for the thread, but points one and three are still vital to the process of DIY creation, and should not simply be waved away as irrelevant in the subject of Female Astartes.

[Ferrata]

Just trying to keep my brain sharp in Uni downtime :) Anyway...onto a serious post.

 

There has been much discussion of hormone therapy being a route for female marines here, but given that the Imperium can't even get it to work with older, non-adolescent males in the 40th millennium, the chance that they could push it past that level of difficulty to get it to work on females (of whatever age) seems to make this staggeringly unlikely.

Wouldn't this be due to the fact that for organ implantation requires natural growth, so pretty much puberty or very young. After puberty, a human would not have any/enough natural growth to be able to accept the organs. Implanting onto older, non-adolescent males is a different problem to that if the female marines. You could stimulate growth, but this would be even more crazy and unpredictable than female hormone treatment.

 

Perhaps this was not what was intended for the thread, but points one and three are still vital to the process of DIY creation, and should not simply be waved away as irrelevant in the subject of Female Astartes.

I was hoping to have them one after the other, first wondering if it was possible, then why would they and then onto what would happen if they did. Though people seem to blurt out on tangents which is welcomed as it has push this thread forward. As you've known, I've always been a no-no on female marines, and I have cunning plans for this thread. ;)

[Darrell]

Unless Male Hormones inhibit Female Hormones (which I do not believe so, I haven't heard of women missing their period because they go too angry one night), then their Estrogen levels would never be affected, just their Male Hormone levels.

 

I'm fairly sure this is the case. The steroid-related information I listed above says that female side-effects of the drug include things like an enlarged clitoris (Which is essentially the female answer to the penis), reduced breast size and "menstrual problems". Those "problems" include no longer having your period, as some female weightlifters have testified to on a few documentaries I've seen on the subject, mainly on Discovery/TLC. So, female hormones would definitely be effected by the massive increase in male hormones.

 

Wouldn't this be due to the fact that for organ implantation requires natural growth, so pretty much puberty or very young.

 

Citing the period of time the Emperor was leading the Great Crusade, he seemed to have no problems getting older males to accept the geneseed or cloning subjects from the Primarchs. Again, this is the biggest problem I have with the female marines theory, in that if the Emperor couldn't get it to work, how could the Imperium get it to work 10,000 years later in the degraded state it's in? There are, of course, theories that the two missing legions, or at least one of them, consisted of female Astartes and a female Primarch, but one could just as easily say it consisted of Ork Marines or Eldar Marines. As far as I know, though, there has been no official mention nor rumor about female Astartes having ever existed.

 

And really, if the Emperor could have done it, wouldn't he? As I mentioned previously, he could have doubled the number of Astartes available and cut the time for the Crusade in half. That was the peak of technology for Mankind, so one would have to explain why it wasn't done before if it could have been done at all.

 

I believe the reason for using geneseed during puberty now is because the number of changes already going on in the body makes it more susceptible to something like organ implantations. It's already changing, growing, expanding, hormone levels are changing rapidly...this kind of turbulent environment may make the process more acceptable to the recruit. Once puberty is over and the body settles back in, the changes might simply be too drastic with no knowledge of a way to counter-act this that the Emperor obviously had access to.

 

Female Astartes just doesn't work in the fluff. The process has been "boys only" for 10,000 years. All the Apothecaries and rituals are focused on men, which are obviously quite different from women. Would the Astartes really think to pump these women full of testosterone to get them to be inferior subjects to a male, the thing the geneseed was designed for in the first place? We're talking about adding brand new technology and processes to a civilization that stopped moving forward 10,000 years ago; the best the Imperium does now is slowly play a losing game of catch-up with its younger self, struggling to find the old technologies and put them to use in an inferior role to the one they used to play.

 

One could maybe go the route of a "Female Astartes for Dummies" STC, but again, this technology isn't cited anywhere in the history of the Imperium. No fluff, no book, no article I've ever read suggests that such Marines ever existed; even in the Cursed Founding, all the Chapters I know of are male. Not to mention, possession of said STC would make this Chapter the #1 target of the Adeptus Mechanicus and its long-reaching tentacles. If the Marines wouldn't surrender the STC, the Mechanicus would probably reveal a "flaw" in the Chapter's geneseed, and make the Chapter the target of the Ordo Hereticus and the likes of the Crimson Fists (Astartes known to hunt down and punish their Space Marine brethren at the behest of the Inquisition). At best, they manage to avoid capture, are declared Excommunicate and live a life hunted by every organization in the Imperium. At worst, they're captured, executed, the STC is confiscated and the Chapter fades into the blank pages of history while the Mechanicus spends the next 10,000 years fiddling with the Construct unsuccessfully.

 

So, I just can't see it being possible, at least in the context of the fluff we have now. Maybe the fluff will change down the road, but as of right now it's a definite no.

[Ferrata]

I'm fairly sure this is the case. The steroid-related information I listed above says that female side-effects of the drug include things like an enlarged clitoris (Which is essentially the female answer to the penis), reduced breast size and "menstrual problems". Those "problems" include no longer having your period, as some female weightlifters have testified to on a few documentaries I've seen on the subject, mainly on Discovery/TLC. So, female hormones would definitely be effected by the massive increase in male hormones.

I would have thought these side effects would have more to do with increased male hormones over decreased female hormones. The point is void though, as you do have the major side effects which will affect the marines effectiveness in battle.

 

Citing the period of time the Emperor was leading the Great Crusade, he seemed to have no problems getting older males to accept the geneseed or cloning subjects from the Primarchs. Again, this is the biggest problem I have with the female marines theory, in that if the Emperor couldn't get it to work, how could the Imperium get it to work 10,000 years later in the degraded state it's in? There are, of course, theories that the two missing legions, or at least one of them, consisted of female Astartes and a female Primarch, but one could just as easily say it consisted of Ork Marines or Eldar Marines. As far as I know, though, there has been no official mention nor rumor about female Astartes having ever existed.

The only answer to this would be maybe the Emperor knew how to do it, he just didn't because of whatever reason. Maybe the society which had grown on Terra was uber-macho and women had been reduced to their pre-women rights level. Though again, this is just playing Devil's Advocate here.

 

One could maybe go the route of a "Female Astartes for Dummies" STC, but again, this technology isn't cited anywhere in the history of the Imperium. No fluff, no book, no article I've ever read suggests that such Marines ever existed; even in the Cursed Founding, all the Chapters I know of are male. Not to mention, possession of said STC would make this Chapter the #1 target of the Adeptus Mechanicus and its long-reaching tentacles. If the Marines wouldn't surrender the STC, the Mechanicus would probably reveal a "flaw" in the Chapter's geneseed, and make the Chapter the target of the Ordo Hereticus and the likes of the Crimson Fists (Astartes known to hunt down and punish their Space Marine brethren at the behest of the Inquisition). At best, they manage to avoid capture, are declared Excommunicate and live a life hunted by every organization in the Imperium. At worst, they're captured, executed, the STC is confiscated and the Chapter fades into the blank pages of history while the Mechanicus spends the next 10,000 years fiddling with the Construct unsuccessfully.

But there wasn't any mention of the Crusader until the Black Templars found the STC for it. There has been no mention of a female marine, I do believe there was one who was converted by Chaos but that goes in the "God did it" clause.

 

So, I just can't see it being possible, at least in the context of the fluff we have now. Maybe the fluff will change down the road, but as of right now it's a definite no.

I don't want the fluff to change down the road, I like it at the moment. I would say its not a definite no, but so damn close it may as well be. I should get the actual article finished tomorrow.

[Darrell]

I like the fluff as it is now as well (Although more of it would always be nice), I was simply leaving open the possibility that the fluff could change down the road and allow for female Astartes for those who desperately desire a female Chapter. At the moment, however, the fluff doesn't support it.

 

But there wasn't any mention of the Crusader until the Black Templars found the STC for it. There has been no mention of a female marine, I do believe there was one who was converted by Chaos but that goes in the "God did it" clause.

 

This is true, but I think the situation is a little different. A Land Raider Crusader is not that different from a Land Raider. It's got a bunch of boltguns on the side instead of lascannons, some assault cannons instead of a heavy bolter, and a multi-melta stuck on top. Fundamentally, it's not that different, and nowhere in the fluff does it say that the machine spirit only works on certain weapon types. Switching out some weapon slots is a lot easier than to reverse-engineer someone's hormonal makeup, I would imagine. Besides, look at the resistance the Black Templar experienced when they used the LRC; they were accused of heresy and other such things. How much worse would the reaction be with something like female Astartes? Also, note that the Black Templars turned over that STC to the Adeptus Mechanicus, thus allowing other Chapters access to the variant. It wasn't some well-kept secret they didn't talk about or hid from 10,000 pages of Imperial history.

 

Nothing wrong with your playing Devil's Advocate, I understand you're looking for discussion to go beyond "NOT POSSIBLE SRRY" and explore the why/how of the issue. I think it would be nice to have a resource to point female Astartes DIY'ers to when they start asking about why they can't do it, et cetera. Of course they're free to do it anyway, but along that same line you're free to make Tyranid Space Marines or Ork Sisters of Battle or whatever else you want to do. People should be just be aware that the fluff doesn't support that kind of theme, and they shouldn't be mad when someone points that out.

[Ferrata]

Here is the first draft of the article. You guys were so good that I basically deleted the original version (not the Hormone one, a different one) and rewrote it. It is not the most elaborate or well written piece, but its a start.

 

Ferrata On: The Female Astartes Problem

 

The creation of female Space Marines is a discussion which has echoed off the walls for as long as I can remember, and probably even before then. It has made civilised men into flamers on internet forums and has made friends raise their voices against one another. As with all key factors in creating a DIY chapter, the following questions must be answered:

 

Could the chapter/Imperium do it?

If so, why would they do it?

And if the did so, how would the rest of the Imperium react?

 

Could they do it?

 

The article on the Creation of Space Marines is very clear on the conditions required to implant the additional organs into a recruit, requiring a natural state of growth and “male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types

[Master Rameus]

Wow, this is an interesting if not somewhat surreal view of Space Marine development.

 

I never knew that the arguement of making SMs female was so predominant.

 

Now, Im far from a scientist but Im sure that with the right techniques in replication and gene-splicing that the X chromasome in the 23rd pair could be introduced into male DNA. And that the Y chromosome could be safely removed.

 

The question then becomes what type of hormone therapy have the medicae adepts of the Imperium developed. Since its Sci-fi, using real world scenarios really doesnt justify what can and cant be done. All Space Marines have to undergo constant monitoring and hormonal, hypno, or psychotherapies to keep their transplanted organs working properly. In reality, it become how stable is the mutation of the altered gene-seed for females, and how receptive are the implanted subjects. Like anyother foreign body introduced into an already functioning human, the initial reaction will be to fight the intrusion. I would imagine that this is were the different type of therapies would come into play. Keeping the organs working to proficiency, and keeping the subjects metabolism to a safe level would be the priorities in both male and female Space Marine subjects. The hormone producing glands in the body can be manipulated to adjust the level of testosterone (male) or progestin(?SP, female) produced, to balance out the metabolism of the individual.

 

Therefore, given my extremely limited knowledge of genetic engineering and human physiology, would surmise that female Space Marines are possible with the medical practices of the 41st millenium.

 

But, since the Emperor produced all Space Marines as males and hasnt sanctioned the mutation and manipulation of gene-seed to be female, wouldnt it be against Imperial dogma to alter it without consent from the Emperor himself?

 

Therefore, given the hypothesis of this thread I would have to err on the side of female Space Marines are not possible because the Emperor didnt say so. But, I could be wrong.

[st.germaine]

I suspect that the Emperor's mother abused him before he came into his full powers and he was a dyed-in-the-wool misogynist; he didn't make female marines out of pure spite. :lol:

[Master Rameus]

I suspect that the Emperor's mother abused him before he came into his full powers and he was a dyed-in-the-wool misogynist; he didn't make female marines out of pure spite. <_<

 

 

 

Very true, st.germaine. But, something hit me after I made my initial post to this. The Emperor doesnt directly rule the Imperium. The High Lords of Terra "interpret" the Emperors will, with their own biases and agendas of course.

 

Its far fetched, but nothing is really stopping the HLoT from sanctioning a chapter of Space Marines comprised completely of females using heavily re-engineered gene-seed. They have tried playing with the gene-seed before (the Cursed Founding).

 

Why would they do this? Who knows. "Can you fire a ballistic missile horizontally? Sure, why would you want too?" (The Hunt for Red October, one of my favorite movies) But, the logic is the same.

[Pirate King Atomsk]

Look this whole thing is ridiculous you can make all the arguements in the world, the FLUFF SAY THEY MUST BE MALE BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

is it scientifically possible maybe but all the extra steps are completely unnessassary and there has been no fluff to justify it not even the dire need to rebuild a chapter one becuase it would take so much additional time and resources plus potential higher failure rate there is no warrant for it no matter how you spin it. Slaneesh is the only viable way ands that isrealy stretching it. if you dont like the fluff, well tough. either,

A. Stop playing

B. Wait for it to change

C. Play SOB

D. Get a job with GW and change it

as I have said before this is the fluff deal with it, this is no better then other DIY violations and if this is allowed then Heck, we might as well allow and stop repremanding people for the 21st primarch or heck even a 43rd , space wolf succesors etc...

 

there is an E.

E. you can stop praying to your precious fluff and have fun with your game

[Grimdarkness]

Bottom line is this is a game and do what you will but don't try to change Canon to fit your desires, this is no better then making a 21st primarch or having a space wolf successor.

 

I have female chaos space marines (who at one time where a 13th founding chapter) a space wolf great company not at the table (a couple thousand years away from fenris they could be considered a successor) and have fluff for primarch 2 and 11.

 

There are a lot of reasons a male chapter would take female recruits necessity is one the lack of decent male candidates on a feral home world could be another but we seem to always miss pride the chapter master of the fighting tigers looked upon his situation and refused to let his chapter die. We always seem to forget that marines may be striped of fear but there full of pride a verry human "sin" so to speak.

 

Has any one else not noticed the new slant the art work is taken with marines there not as bulky in there armour as they once were supreme grand master azreal in the new D.A codex for example. I always laugh when someone points out female bodybuilders when it comes to female marines marines are not bodybuilders that much muscel reduces movment. For a better example look at the female fitness comps or imagine a seven foot tall gymnast for a better idea of female marines.

 

Besides the only gene seed i can see working for female marines is the Blood angels who's apothecaries may experiment with a female "volunteer". The other chapter would be the Raven Guard whose own primarch messed with there gene seed again to recoup numbers after being decimated. So there is precedent for taking liberties with a chapter/Legions gene seed.

[Rymeer]

I really do hate to throw promethium on the fire, but there is ONE way to make 'female' space marines. however, they would only 'technically' be female, since in fact they would be Hermaphrodites. There is a VERY RARE occurance in genetics where someone is born with THREE full sets of chromozones. Yes, a person with XXY genes. Most of these people exhibit 'female' exterior appearances, excepting for the addition of a 'cock' where the 'clit' would normally be located. The male appendage IS fully functional, and CAN produce sperm. But the lack of exterior testes (balls, for the uneducated) results in low sperm count and FAR lower sperm viability.

 

Out of a planetary population of 6+ billion on earth... there are only a couple of hundred herms known to exist. These genetic abnormalities are just that... abnormal. They are able to reproduce... barely. But no offspring are EVER herms as well. So, a viable populaion of hermaphrodies is pretty far fetched to say the least.

 

Just my thoughts,

 

Rymeer

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

there is an E.

E. you can stop praying to your precious fluff and have fun with your game

 

Well, the thing is you see, that without the fluff you would have a colourless, boring bunch of plastic men running around the field, with no rules or background to drive them. There would be no more miniatures released and the game would stagnate and die.

 

If you dont care about the fluff then go play a ww2 miniatures game, or go strip your models down to their plastic and fight with them using your own damn rules.

 

I really dont like that sort of attitude as you are just saying it for spites sake into a conversation that is here for the point of debate. Its like walking into a football debate and saying "well you could always watch cricket".

 

And for my two cents on the issue:

 

I think that it is, yes, possible, for Female Marines, but as has been stated, from a genetic level would make them completely unstable and not exactly prime candidates for protecting the empire. Yes the HLoT could mess with the gene-seed, but firstly only the Mechanicus has juresdiction over the Seed, and secondly they wont do what the HLoT say without their own puppet saying so. Thirdly, After a couple of severe screw ups and disasters after messing with said gene-seed (cursed foundings etc) they would be extremely reluctant to do it again, in my eyes.

 

That said, if you can reconcile it with yourself and you want to go and model breasts on a power armoured torso, its up to you.

 

As an aside, I really prefer the stylised look of the SoB equipment, especially the helms of their power armour. The SM really should get some nicer looking basic marines. In my humble opinion.

[Philip S]

Female space marines?

 

First I’ll declare that I don’t like the idea, not because I a misogynist git, but because I really like the Sisters of Battle! I think that the idea of the Sisters of Battle actually policing the Space Marines and exterminating them if need be is a very cool idea and should be preserved.

 

In effect the Sisters are the brains, and the Marines are the psycho-conditioned brawn of the Imperium.

 

I think that ‘Female Space Marines’ dilutes this, what’s next: male ‘Sisters’ of Battle in pink armour? :D

 

Nah (well chaos/ Slaanesh maybe! :P)

 

The Sisters of Battle are a very potent female force in 40K and it should stay that way. Indeed I see the Sisters are the female Space Marine of 40K, and are in some ways superior in power level within the hierarchy of he Imperium.

 

Having said that I have no problem with ‘enhanced’ Sisters of Battle, but there is something poetic with the idea that a genetically normal woman can take on an enhanced super man. The Sisters don’t need enhancements to defeat marines!

 

This ‘setting’ reason I can see is the only reason to stop female Space Marines appearing in the current or new chapters. If you want Female Space Marines get the sisters (way cool models) and muck about with their background and introduce ‘enhancements’ (and please keep the breast size down!).

 

Science (but not as we know it!)

The reason I think it is a flavour issue and not a science issue, it that for every reason to limit marines to being males using pseudo-science can be countered with (obviously) yet more pseudo-science.

 

Hormones can be injected (similar to combat drug dispensers), and if you come up with a really good male only genetic reason for marines, linked to the Y chromosome, then just genetically re-engineer the woman’s DNA to make one of her X chromosomes a Y. Problem solved. Or if that’s too much pick a woman with an unusually chromosome structure like X-X-Y, they are all woman and have an extra Y (it happens!).

 

So, I would say the idea of limiting it for pseudo-science reason is a non-starter, I think the focus should shift to improving the power and status of the Sisters of Battle. The mere fact hey are overlooked as being the equivalent of the marines says a lot about how the fans see them.

 

I sure there must be some clandestine project to make super Sisters of Battle somewhere in the Imperium. Real hardcore b***h for destroying Marine chapters. Now that would be a surprise of a renegade marine chapter master ;)

 

Philip

[desertfox]

When talking about space marines, I don't like the argument of 'just play sisters of battle'. I want to have Adeptus Astartes. If the only females i can have in my army are sisters or guard then all space marine armies should be a single color, fight the same way, and all space marines would be named Bob. People want to play what they want to play, and if their paying for the game why can't they do it as long as their not cheating and what is on the board is a good representation.

 

also this is not a discussion of fluff, this is a discussion on the possibility / probability of female space marines

 

ok that rant aside

 

1) Why would they do it?

2) Could they do it?

3) What reaction would it have from the wider Imperium?

 

1) Why: Many chapters have trials that determine who will become a recruit in their chapter. For example Space Wolves select those who died honorably in combat. Some use mass combat. Some use forced survival in hazard terrain. If a female is capable of completing these tasks why would she be judged inferior simply because of gender? Space Marines have enough trouble finding enough suitable male recruits, allowing females means they have a great pool to draw from. Not every female would be capable of meeting the standards, but the ones who do meet an equel standard would certainly aid the chapter. Also females are known for having a higher pain tolerance. Their bodies are more stable, giving them the potential to be better marksman. They also have higher tolerances to pressure and g-forces. Female bodies, while having upper body strength issues, have no trouble supporting weight. By this i mean, while they can not ,on average, lift as much as a male of equal age/weight they can carry that weight once its on their bodies.

 

Also, it has been mentioned that chapters who are lost / split off may only have females to recruit. This is very possible. A female warrior society might produce superior recruits is another possibility for a female chapter. A damaged gene seed may require the use of females. These however are more reasons for a female chapter than a female marine.

 

2: How: We do not know for certain in the world of 40k, how things work. It could very well be possible that females have a high chance of surviving the transition into space marines. To support this argument, the female body is capable of one thing that a male body is not, and that is childbirth. It can grow a child of the opposite gender and support that child until it is ready to function on its own. A XX mother can provide everything a XY child needs, including testosterone. It could be said that a XX female going through puberty could supply a XY gene seed and organs with what they need to survive better than a male.

 

Going into the realm of hard genetics, lets consider how a child is made. A XX and a XY each give one chromosome. The female giving an X and the male giving a X or a Y. Now, if the gene seed is XY and can only work with a like pattern what would happen to a chapter who's Y chromosome was damaged. We know the Admech is capable of cloning, otherwise gene seed would not be possible at all. The X in the XY pair of the gene seed could be copied. Thus you would have a XX gene seed. Gene seed only works with like pairings, so females must be recruited for that line of gene seed.

 

There are two unknown primarchs. It is often assumed they are/were male. They could have been female. We know the Emperor himself created his children in his image, but we know they came out flawed. Some had wings, one had a single eye, and there was even one with fangs and the habit of scratching behind his ears (i play space wolves, i can poke at myself all i want). These are massive genetic flukes. I have yet to see a human being with wings in all of the genetic interactions that take place in our modern world on a daily basis. However, all embryos start female. There is a point where the male genetics kick in. If you can have a fluke, such as wings growing out of your back, it is a rather safe assumption that a fluke could prevent the male genetics from copying or from kicking in at all. Thus the space marines created from these two templates would be female. As for neither of these primarchs never being mentioned, well we can blame the inquisition for that. The inquisition is the true keeper of history, they can add or delete what they like. There is no central source for history so it would be simple to write the female primarchs and their legions out of it.

 

3) Response: Most of the Imperiam of Man have never seen a space marine. Most don't even know what they are surposed to look like. This though, is probley the question with the most far reaching consiquinces. How would the people view them? How would the administration view them? How would their fellow chapters view them?

 

The average person in 40k is lucky if he knows a space marine exists. The individual has a good head on his shoulders if he knows what one is surposed to look like. If he knows that space marines are surposed to be male and that the female space marines he is looking at could only be heresy then he/she is probley a heretic himself/herself for knowing that much in the first place.

 

As far as those in the Imperial Guard, the government, the Inquisition, or the Admech it would depend on the level of access they have to information. All would certainly know of space marines, and probley have seen pictures. Your average IG grunt isn't going to care. I dought even the high command would care as they are too busy. They would simply pass it along to the inquistion. Planetary governments probley wouldn't be much wiser or much more likely to act than the Guard would. The Inquisition would probley try and destroy the offending chapter but we have seen many chapters knock aside the great I. The space wolves for one, attack any I vessel in their territory but the Inquistion did not hesitate to accept their aid in banishing a fallen primarch. The Admech, for all its knowledge, is probley the most blind to the existance of a female chapter. They rely on the chapter to send geenseed for analysis and storage. Somehow chapters like the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and other damaged chapters manage to find pure (enough) geenseed to send in.

 

My feelings about a female chapter are this, they would exist in 40k just like everything else. Everything in 40k lives in uneasy peace with itself and its surroundings. I just think the idea of female marines strikes at something more basic in the human psyche. After all, would we be having this heated or heavy a discussion if we were speaking of a space marine chapter based on Kroot who had eaten a large number of space marines and developed space marine organs and developed an affinity for wearing power armor?