Ferrata on: The Female Marine Question

[Pirate King Atomsk]

When talking about space marines, I don't like the argument of 'just play sisters of battle'. I want to have Adeptus Astartes. If the only females i can have in my army are sisters or guard then all space marine armies should be a single color, fight the same way, and all space marines would be named Bob. People want to play what they want to play, and if their paying for the game why can't they do it as long as their not cheating and what is on the board is a good representation.

 

Yeah. Thats what I've been trying to say, he just says it better. <_<

[Philip S]

When talking about space marines, I don't like the argument of 'just play sisters of battle'. I want to have Adeptus Astartes.

Can't really argue with that!

 

I am curious as to why you specifically want female Space Marines, and why the Sisters of Battle will not do?

 

And if you did an army of female space marines/ or saw artwork of female space marines would you want the armour modified to reflect a female form?

 

Philip

[desertfox]

sister of battle are religious figures who carry only flame weapons in a desire to purge (i do own sisters btw)

 

space marines are elite shock troops, who thunder through their enemy by any means necessary

 

their are not a lot of similarities to them. Sure they both use bolters and wear power armor but that is about it. If sisters were to wear carapace armor and carry hellguns...then the argument would fizzle away...just because they have power armor and bolters they are not the equel to in spirit or the fear they bring to their foes as a space marine.

 

that and they can't spit acid, or walk out into space without a suit, or place themselves in suspended animation, or live forever, or survive wounds that would kill a mortal man with a laugh and a smarmy comeback.

 

as for why i want female space marines. I have always been interested in amazon myths. These are not zealots who run around with flamers doing the will of the church.

 

Also, i have met many people, male and female, who i choose to make a figure to represnt them in my army. It is sort of a way to honor them.

 

As for the armor, i am a realist. I would not want it to reflect a female form. You don't see the US Army or US Marines handing out armor based on male or female. I would reflect it by changing the size (slighter height) or by having leaders without helmets. But for the most part, buttoned up in all that gear...they would look the same.

[Philip S]

that and they can't spit acid, or walk out into space without a suit, or place themselves in suspended animation, or live forever, or survive wounds that would kill a mortal man with a laugh and a smarmy comeback.

So, if there was an elite unit of Sisters with a similar MO to space marines, and enhanced in a similar way you would accept that, or do they have to look like a Space Marine (as in: Space Marines armour)?

 

as for why i want female space marines. I have always been interested in amazon myths. These are not zealots who run around with flamers doing the will of the church.

I must admit I have a soft spot for the Amazons and warrior women, though my musing on them are limited to Warhammer fantasy.

 

Also, i have met many people, male and female, who i choose to make a figure to represnt them in my army. It is sort of a way to honor them.

Interesting. Is this why you want the female marines?

 

As for the armor, i am a realist. I would not want it to reflect a female form. You don't see the US Army or US Marines handing out armor based on male or female. I would reflect it by changing the size (slighter height) or by having leaders without helmets. But for the most part, buttoned up in all that gear...they would look the same.

I would agree where the IG are concerned, and I suppose if there were female marines (in a US marine type way) it would make sense, though I don’t think marine are like US marines.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

Philip

[desertfox]

if they modified sisters of battle to be shock troops, and gave them super human abilities...would they not be space marines. If i wanted space marines in SoB armor i would just use SoB models and call them space marines. The appearance isn't the issue. The issue is that they are Space Marines. They carry in their veins the blood of the Emperor himself.

 

I ask this question...why does everyone point to the sisters of battle as an alternative to female space marines. what about them gives you the impression that they are a good substitute for the emperor's finest?

 

Amazons are cool...everyone knows this...

 

I prefere having a traditional male chapter, with a few female characters for spice, fluff, or to honor someone i know. To honor those I know is not the only reason I want to field them, but it is one of the better reasons I can share. As an example of this, I give my Chaplain...the Angel of Death. She is based on a Sgt. I met during a combat exercise. She was truly an individual without fear. She would stand on a firing line, with machine guns, grenade launchers, and anti tank rockets going off around her and never loose her calm. That is not to say she could not be loud. When it was time for yelling...she was always at the head of a charge, directing and guiding...who better to lead an army of marines?

 

I could possibly see armor being different for space marines if the chapter openly supported female members and did so for a reason. For example, I could see scout armor having a more feminine shape for its wearers because it is more form fitting. Older suits of armor, that is passed down from wearer to wearer might reflect its wearer as they want to be recognized.

 

I personally like my armor the same for females and males.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

What I am about to say has been hinted at it hasnt been explicately used to form an argument. What we must all realise is that the 40K world is based upon scientific rationalism and from what I am able to gather Darwinsim too. I am basing this off the Hours Heresy novels which give one of the closet looks into the workings of the Imperium pre-heresy. Now using Darwinism each progressive generation makes minute adjustments until after numerous successive generations they will have developed into something that is able to cope within the enviroment.

 

Currently both male and females are similar in many ways physically and we are seeing an increasing emergence of a homogenised culture and mindset through the increasing prelevance of the "metro-sexual". With this increasing general "human" experience i believe by the time of the time of the founding and Great Crusade we would be of a startingly simillar culture with no discernable differences in experiences or mindset.

 

So in the 38,000 years leading up to this point and the increasing prelevance of all out war, with no real definition between the sexes, would it not seem plausible that successive generations would develop simillar attributes, such as increased strength, speed etc?

So around this time, apart from different sexual organs and XY/XX, i believe there would not be to much difference in a fair proportion of the population. Of course there will be exceptions but with the increasing acceptance I am sure the shared experiences would have a great effect upon the current physiology of most humans at that time.

 

The increasing amount of those with the Psyker gene is also something to look at. It does it actually say anywwhere from what I have seen what makes you become psychiacally aware, so if we could develop such a gene would it not also be possible to have something of a near homogenous gene, within these same circumstances? If not something close to having both XX/XY with a significant prelevance in one leading to a homogenstic gene?

 

Or could it be the "geneseed" has nothing to do with the XY/XX of the person and that we have only attached this ourselves?

 

With scientific rationalism and Darwinism it adds something that had not been really looked at. In our current time, it would be near impossible to have a female marine but in the 41st Millenium who nows how far advanced we will have become?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

If the only females i can have in my army are sisters or guard then all space marine armies should be a single color, fight the same way, and all space marines would be named Bob.

 

I have to disagree simply for the fact that Not ALL sisters of battle belong to the same freaking order. Just as there are different IG Regiments and Space Marine Legions/Chapters, there are different Orders. I know its mainly cosmetic, but so were most of the differences between the others before the trait system became precedent. The OH book simply came too soon and denied SoB players the trait system. Well, sort of. Probably not quite like that but I took the time to write it so there it is.

 

Anyway, everything else is just conjecture and academic debate.... which is no bad thing

[desertfox]

The point of that rant is this...if your playing space marines...you want to be able to play the chapter that you want to play. You don't want to be forced into playing Ultramarines. It is only fair then, that another player be able to play what he wants, female space marines without having to justify it to every person he plays against or have to deal with fingers being stabbed into books to point out one line.

 

Second, the sisters never had access to any sort of trait system. They are not space marines and never were. They have never used the space marine codex. They were stuck with a ancient list that was in the main rulebook at the time with some extra units tossed in from White Dwarf. Sisters are not female space marines.

 

That being said Sangunius makes a good point. We don't know the average physical characteristics of individuals. It could be assumed that they are similiar in height, build, and even mental characteristics. That is not something I thought about. However the sexes change though, we can't get away from the XX/XY debate as it defines the differences between males and females. Though with the variety of planets out there, I imagine a whole range of possible body types is available to a recruiting chapter.

[Darrell]

The point of that rant is this...if your playing space marines...you want to be able to play the chapter that you want to play. You don't want to be forced into playing Ultramarines. It is only fair then, that another player be able to play what he wants, female space marines without having to justify it to every person he plays against or have to deal with fingers being stabbed into books to point out one line.

 

We can't stop people from doing what they want. If someone wants to make a female Astartes army, there's no one that can physically restrain them from doing so. However, that person should be aware before they start that the fluff does not support their idea, and if they don't like being reminded of that then they probably shouldn't have went with the idea to begin with.

 

Using the idea of "I want female marines, and I should be able to do what I want", then you could also have Ork Marines. Eldar Marines. Tyranid Marines. Necron Marines. Why not? Shouldn't everyone be able to play what they want? How about male Sisters of Battle? I don't want to play Space Marines, I want to play male Sisters of Battle!

 

You can do those things, sure, but you can't do them in the context of the fluff, which is what this whole thread is about. It's not can someone make an army of female Astartes. Players can do whatever army they want, just like they can play with whatever rules they want. If that was the basis of the discussion, there would have been no point in starting it. The thread would have been "People can do what they want" and that would have been the end. That was not the case, however, and this thread deals with the possibilities of female Astartes in context of the fluff. If people come into this discussion with the mindset of "lolz Fluff is teh ghey" or "People should be allowed to do what they want", then I'm afraid this discussion really isn't the best place to voice those opinions. We're talking about fluff.

 

In the fluff, it quite clearly says geneseed is keyed to male hormones and tissue types (Whatever male tissue types are). I don't want to go into the depth my previous post did, so I'll summarize some key points as to why female Astartes are impossible in the context of fluff.

 

1) If men and women had become some kind of homogenized genetic things, we can assume that there would have been no mention of "Geneseed works only for men". That line clearly says there is a fundamental difference between men and women, on a genetic level, that keeps the geneseed from working. So, we can safely say that not everyone is walking around with an XY or XXY setup. It's pretty safe to say, given that, women are still XX and men are still XY.

 

2) Women being big and muscular has nothing to do with the geneseed functioning. If that was the case it probably wouldn't work on 10-14 year olds. When was the last time you saw a big, muscular 10 year old? An Amazonian woman of some monstrous build is still going to have the genetics of a woman. She may have more testosterone present in her system than a smaller woman, but still not near enough to be considered a "man". Not to mention, an Amazonian woman of that stature is probably considerably older than 10-14.

 

3) "They're desperate for recruits!" doesn't resonate with me. Did the Ultramarines start looking for female recruits after they fought Hive Fleet Behemoth and lost their First Company? Are the Crimson Fists looking for girls after Rynn's World? Are the Celestial Lions diving for female doctors to replace their Apothecaries? Did the Raven Guard, Salamanders or Iron Hands get female recruits to build their ranks back up after the Heresy? Are the Scythes of the Emperor or Lamenters doing it? There are so many cases, in the official fluff, of Chapters being brought to the verge of annihilation and still they haven't turned to female recruits. To paraphrase Ferrata, "Just because your tank is empty doesn't mean you're going to put cheese in your fuel tank".

 

4) There has never been any kind of reference to female Astartes in the present fluff. Not even the Emperor, the greatest example of Mankind who had every technological means at his disposal, was able to create female Astartes. Don't you think he would have, if he could? Doubling his Legions would have been awesome. Cutting the Great Crusade in half would have been awesome. Yet, the Emperor didn't, and we can only assume he did so because he was unable to do so. If the Emperor couldn't have done it in a time where the Imperium's technological knowledge was at its peak, how could it be done 10,000 years later with inferior technology and information?

 

5) "There are two missing Primarchs and Legions! They could have been female!" They could have been anything. They could have been Ork Marines, Eldar Marines, et cetera. You could make up anything you wanted to and shove it in those two empty bars of Imperial history, but that doesn't make a very good argument.

 

6) Genetic engineering is a remote possibility, but by using the effects of steroids on women as an example, I have shown how this would have a huge, negative effect on those female recruits. We're not talking big, red-haired, voluptuous women wearing power armor (Sorry Kenton, I love your site and I think you're a great guy). We're talking depressed, psychotic, suicidal, balding, heart-failing, liver-failing, roid raging creatures that make the Black Rage look like a stubbed toe. Not to mention, how would any Space Marine Chapter be able to do it? They just happen to have a "Making Women into Men for Dummies" book in the back of the Apothecarion? Astartes are big on their traditions, and given that, I don't think the possibilities of them taking a diving leap into the world of genetic engineering is likely. They can't even improve the way a geneseed works in a male (Cursed Founding); how in the world could they make it work for women?

 

7) Geneseed doesn't even work most of the time when it's used on males, the very thing it is designed for. The failure rate on aspirants is high, due to the loss of medical knowledge, pieces of technology and the highly ritualistic nature of the process that is anathema to the safe, stable environment the process needs to work its full potential. Men are driven insane, their bodies fail or mutate, their souls are destroyed, they are lost to infections or some other disease. Again, these circumstances are when they are using it on 100% male recruits, who are rigorously tested from their home populace before even being considered. How much higher would the failure rate be on normal women? On genetically modified women whose bodies are made weaker, not stronger, by the use of male hormones? On an XXY hermaphrodite (Not to mention the odds of finding a huge planetary populace of hermaphrodites to recruit from)?

 

The fluff just isn't very receptive to female Astartes. We can say "Oh, but science in the future is weird and different! I have this crazy pseudoscience theory about genetics that could let it be possible, despite the fact I have no genetic background to even guess this is remotely plausible", but the fluff itself pretty much makes that null and void. It only works on men, the fluff says it right there in the Rites of Initiation article. Only men can become Astartes, and even the number of men that can become Astartes is very few.

 

If people want to go ahead and make female Astartes given that information, that's fine. But those people should be wise enough to know that they are probably going to get some funny looks, and shouldn't be upset when they have fluff quoted about the impossibilities during a discussion. Now, I'm not saying it's right for people to be e-mail spamming Kenton about the Red Head; people should respect each other's interests and if someone wants to do something wild and crazy, that's their business. As I said before, I like Kenton's website, from everything I've seen and heard he's a great guy and a great 40K player who I would be happy to know. However, in discussions of fluff, it's just not possible. And if you're going to make your army without consideration to fluff, and regardless of what other people think, then you probably aren't going to come post it on the Liber anyway. If you do, don't be surprised when a lot of your responses are telling you that the foundation of your idea is flawed.

[desertfox]

my point was never that people should be allowed to play what they want...

that was my opening rant...which everyone has latched onto.

 

as for 'you want female marines, i want eldar marines' argument. It is one thing to discuss the difference of human males vs human females and the differences between an eldar male and a human male. Eldar are not human. In a genetics world they might not even use DNA they might use a different nucleic acid compound to carry their genetic information. Orcs...are plants. Necrons are robots. I did once see an orc space marine army and thought it was the funniest thing i had ever seen...and it was alot of fun to play against, but a male human does not begin life as a orc and suddenly change into a human male. However, a human male does begin as a female embryo that then turns into a male embryo.

 

however, given your argument that geneseed only works on men. I should be able to field an all male eldar space marine army, or an orc space marine army since they too are all male, or an all male tau space marine army, or all male kroot space marine army.

 

it is difficult to argue about what levels of hormones or even what is required to make a space marine. The exact details are never discussed. Saying that a XY combination is required is speculation on your part as much as it is mine.

 

The amazon thing was a side track, and a personal reason for wanting to explore this idea...

 

As for being desperate to recruit, all of the forces you mentioned were neither cut off by the warp or attachted to a society that had female rulers or a female dominate society. And i would like to add that the raven guard did take desperate measures to recruit. They did not recruit females in that example but showed a desire to ignore restrictions on the creation of space marines and even altered its geneseed to do so.

 

As for the arguments about the emperor. Allowing females would not double to number of space marines he created. If the emperor had the resources to create a 1000 marines...then he can make 1000 marines. With both female and male stock...you'll still get 1000 marines at the end. He would not have been able to double his legions. Also, given the two unknown primarchs, part of the legions he created could have been female.

 

It is not known if steroids are even needed. We don't know the minimum requirements for creating a space marines, the amount found in a female of similar age may be enough. Also, as i said, it could be possible that the female body is capable of supporting the geneseed better than a male because of their bodies natural ability to support foreign life.

 

The issue is that history is written by those in charge. The backgrounds presented in all 40k codex and published material is treated as coming from Inquisition libraries or similar archives. If Gulliman or the Inqusition wanted to hide their existence then they would simple disappear and not be discussed. Which is odd considering that is what happened to two of the original primarchs.

[Imperial Knight]

Darrell, I agree with you whole heartedly. The bottumn line is this. The fluff says no. Now if you want to go against fluff and do want you want fine, your money, your models. But it will put you on the outside looking in becuase even if alot of players don't like or aggree with the fluff, the majority stand by it for the in game and story line continuity. Your arguments for female marines are like statics, you are twisting and spinning something that has been clearly stated in the fluff with your own hypothesis and wants to benifit your argument. Fine...but if you are going to do these things don't get mad or upset when the majority of the players look at you and bring the fluff argument against you. In friendly games between you and your pals you will probably not have any issues, but I have seen people flat out refuse to game against someone for this very subject. Now yes that was an extreme way of handleing the situation but it has and will happen.

 

Please understand I am very adamant against female marines due to the current fluff, and we can theorize all kinds of things about the gaps in the fluff but that does not make them real..heck there are thousands of JFK conspiracies it does not make them real. If the fluff changes then fine and most players that go by the fluff we adjust fire and deal, but given the current state of fluff the answer is simply no. There is nothing currently out there in the game to support your argument. I myself am guilty of trying the wrong things to make my chapter "special" and when it is pointed out to me hey sparky you've gone to far I reel myself back in.

 

I also do not and will not be convinced using out of game and fluff scientific reasoning, becuase it is being done with 21st century mindset and knowledge plus by the way reality versus fiction. Please also refrain from using real life military refrences I am an active duty soldier, 11B, have been in my share of firefights and kicked in more then enough doors with 3 deployments and 11 years of experience I have meet a total of maybe 4 women out of the literal thousand or so female soldiers I have known that could hang with the AVERAGE male soldier in a combat environment. So please not to say the one female that was refrenced could not be in with that 4 please just realize that they are the extreme exception to the rule. I have physically been there when a convoy of majority non combat arm soldiers we were escorting came under attack, EVERY female soldier on that convoy sought cover until the fight was over while there male counter parts charged into the frey. When the ammo reconciliation was done, not a single one of the 8 females fired a round or engaged the enemy, while the majority of us were down at least 2 mags. So from my personal perspective and experience this will never be a viable argument using real world issues to justify in game one. NOW ENDING REAL WORLD RANT...lol.

 

So to re-interate as long as the Fluff says no do not expect or be mad at peoples refusal to accept female marines. I love this game, and am all for people doing what they want with the property, just dont expect or demand others to like or accept it. If the fluff changes then I am sure there will be those hold outs and nay sayers but the majority of us will accept it but until then NO.

 

These are the opinions of Imperial Knight and in no way reflect the opinions or official veiw of the Bolter and Chainsword, Games Workshop, the US. Army, or the Center for Public Broadcasting. These are simply the views and comments of the individual providing commentary. This broadcast has been brought to you by Generic X Cola company in support of the free brroadcast of the Public broadcasting and blog channel.

[desertfox]

fluff arguments just get on my nerves because it is always changing and taken as 100% perfect...which it is not.

also, i am not seeking their permission to field my army. If they want to surrender the game to me on that grounds...fine. I'll take a victory.

 

If you want to go by a fluff argument. The ultramarines are supposed to be the codex chapter, adhering to it to a fault. We see this in their battle vs the Alpha Legion. Suddenly the Ultramarines begin fielding elite units not from the codex list, which is a contradiction to their strict adherence to the codex. This brings up two possibilities. One is that fluff is very contradictory/flawed or option two, the fluff of the ultramarines adherence to codex is a creation of history set down by the Inquisition and the Ultramarines themselves.

 

as for females in combat. The Sgt i spoke of was one example. To provide some background I am a Marine. I'm not a 0311 or any 03 MOS but we are often pushed into those roles because of limited manpower / USMC policy. On a patrol or convoy we don't care about gender and we don't care about MOS. I've seen female kick open doors and i have watched them man crew service weapons.

 

Now i have met some who could not handle the stress of that combat, and i have met males in the same boat.

 

This is beginning to get off topic.

 

The discussion is on the creation of female space marines.

 

I believe that it is possible, based on genetic fundamentals and the lack of any conclusive evidence to the contrary. A statement, from a source that is controlled by the inquisition is far from fair and impartial.

 

We know that manipulation of the geneseed can and does happen

 

We know that mutations can happen, significant ones.

 

We know that there are groups within the admech who experiment with things deemed heretical.

 

I wonder if people would get this heated if I were to call them enhanced SoB or make Kroot marines.

[Darrell]

EDIT:

 

fluff arguments just get on my nerves

 

If fluff arguments get on your nerves, coming into a fluff-based discussion thread was not the best idea you've had.

 

as for 'you want female marines, i want eldar marines' argument. It is one thing to discuss the difference of human males vs human females and the differences between an eldar male and a human male. Eldar are not human. In a genetics world they might not even use DNA they might use a different nucleic acid compound to carry their genetic information. Orcs...are plants. Necrons are robots. I did once see an orc space marine army and thought it was the funniest thing i had ever seen...and it was alot of fun to play against, but a male human does not begin life as a orc and suddenly change into a human male. However, a human male does begin as a female embryo that then turns into a male embryo.

 

however, given your argument that geneseed only works on men. I should be able to field an all male eldar space marine army, or an orc space marine army since they too are all male, or an all male tau space marine army, or all male kroot space marine army.

 

I'm afraid your first argument negates the first. You can't say "Humans are different from aliens" then follow that with "Well, if geneseed only works on men then we can have male Eldar Space Marines". In terms of a player doing whatever he wants with his money, yes, that is true. In terms of a player building his army in the boundaries of the fluff, no it is not. Geneseed is only compatible with human males.

 

As for being desperate to recruit, all of the forces you mentioned were neither cut off by the warp or attachted to a society that had female rulers or a female dominate society. And i would like to add that the raven guard did take desperate measures to recruit. They did not recruit females in that example but showed a desire to ignore restrictions on the creation of space marines and even altered its geneseed to do so.

 

Desperate circumstances are desperate circumstances. I've listed several Chapters that were reduced in numbers, and yet none turned to female recruits. I don't buy the reasoning of a planet having female rulers or a female dominate society. A female being in charge doesn't make her a man genetically, it only makes her socially powerful. Similarly, a man being enslaved doesn't mean he loses his male hormones nor male tissue. If a Chapter came across this world, they would either move on to another world that would yield better recruits, or just start kidnapping male recruits and making the best of them in a situation where they were stranded and couldn't leave. I'm sure in the 10,000 history of the Imperium, there have been Chapters stranded on a world or caught in a Warp Storm or found some world dominated by women. Yet there are no records of a Chapter using females as a recruit, while I have already listed examples of Chapters that, by your reasoning, could easily have recruited females yet did not.

 

As for the arguments about the emperor. Allowing females would not double to number of space marines he created. If the emperor had the resources to create a 1000 marines...then he can make 1000 marines. With both female and male stock...you'll still get 1000 marines at the end. He would not have been able to double his legions. Also, given the two unknown primarchs, part of the legions he created could have been female.

 

I'm assuming the Emperor's resources were unlimited for all intents and purposes to make Marines, and that he could arm as many Space Marines as he could make. If this was not the case, then you would be right in that he would have the same number either way. However, posts before have hinted that women would make equally good recruits, if not better, than men. If that was the case, wouldn't the Emperor have used them? Why isolate soldiers that were just as good, if not better, if the geneseed would accept them? For me, the reason is because the geneseed wouldn't work for women. Again, referring to the unknown primarchs, they could have been female. Or they could have been three-eyed Orc/Eldar hybrids. You can jam anything you want in there, but considering precedent, I'm inclined to believe those two missiong Legions are male recruits just like the other 18.

 

It is not known if steroids are even needed. We don't know the minimum requirements for creating a space marines, the amount found in a female of similar age may be enough. Also, as i said, it could be possible that the female body is capable of supporting the geneseed better than a male because of their bodies natural ability to support foreign life.

 

Perhaps steroids aren't needed. However, steroids present a real life example of what happens when women take male hormones to increase their physical performance. While armchair geneticists offer pseudoscience theory about how humans could evolve into some uni-sex race in the future, or how one can strip the X chromosomes and transform them into Y chromsomes, or whatever, I can point to pictures and reports that show what happens when women take male hormones. Could it be different in the future? Sure. In a fictional future? Sure. But when a real life example is available, I like to use it. And seriously, does anyone think you can genetically engineer a woman into a man without serious consequences? When geneseed has such dangerous effects on actual men, do people honestly think they could just do the same thing with a woman and everything work just fine? I can't help but think there would have to be some dangerous side-effects, and steroids gives us an example of what they could be.

 

I just can't see female marines working in current fluff. Sorry. :D

 

EDIT II:

 

I wonder if people would get this heated if I were to call them enhanced SoB or make Kroot marines.

 

Kroot Marines are just as impossible, as I said earlier. I don't know enough about Sisters of Battle and the policies of the Ordo Hereticus to say how plausible "enhanced" SoB are. I can say that making female Astartes is impossible in the current fluff. Perhaps the Ordo Inquisition forum can help you if you want to pursue the idea of "enhanced" SoB.

[Imperial Knight]

Again the basic flaw in your argument to go against fluff, is this. You nor I work for gamesworkshop so we DO NOT write the canon fluff or have creative rights to change it beyond the clear boundaries that are set. We can sit here second guess them find flaws and arguments to support our thoughts all day long it does not change the fact that only they can make it legitimate or not. If they take artistic licences with there creation and as you used the Ultramarines as an example THEY can do that and reflect it in the canon fluff that goes along with it. Yes actually I would have an argument against it if you spun them as kroot marines etc...they have left gaps in the fluff where we can have some artistic input but they have not opened it up to wholesale change. I am sorry that you dont like fluff arguments and your right is does constantly change but this portion of the fluff has not and until it does this is really just a debate for the sake of debate. I have myself said if they change the fluff then I will go with it, but ultimately I stand by what i have said before this is no different then makeing a 21st priarch, nameing your chapter as one of the lost 2 legions, making a space wolf succesor, or a loyal chapter of one of the heritic legions that is openly accepted and not hunted by the Imperium. Right now with the current fluff all of these to include female space marines and even yes super enhanced SOB are against fluff and will simply not be accepted by the majority. You will just have to accept that. That being said again it is your army, your money and your models, realize you are going against the majority and that means you will take flack for it, if you can accept that and deal with that is your boat to float, but on the same note be prepared and dont get mad when people point it out to you, and that your argument is simply based on your opinion and desire wich will carry little ammunition in this type of debate. And in regards to that situation I observed in the local store run tournament he did not get credit for the win the resuffled the"brackets" to find someone that would play him. Again I think that was a little extreme and childish but there are people out there in this game that go WELL past just wanting the fluff to be abided by. Again there your models do with them as you want just let it be known you fight an up hill battle and will be faced with the fluff argument constantly, you can get pissed and annoyed wich will do you no good or you can point out simply there your models you'll do what you like and understand where they stand and just simply agree to disagree. But until GW changes the fluff it is in black and white and an open and shut case till THEY change it.

[desertfox]

I do a lot of things that gets on my nerves...

 

the argument that eldar males or orcs could become space marines is based on the fact people are arguing one line. I have not seen a single line that states that non-humans can not become space marines, only that females (apparently of any species) can't. I am trying to use an extreme example to get people to look beyond a single line of text.

 

It is impossible to say that no chapters have done it as records are not complete. For some chapters we only have a name and a founding date...no data on who they are, how they opperate, if their still alive, and if they have females among their ranks.

 

I have never stated that female recruits would be better than men. I did state that they had advantages and that a female recruit has the potential to surpass a male recruit. If you look at the recruits and take the best 1000 and that best 1000 happens to contain a few females, do you kick them out of the selection to take inferior males?

 

As for the mission primarchs, they are left blank for a reason...for players to insert what they want. It is within fluff boundaries to say a 'unknown' geneseed was used to create a chapter. Its been done before by GW itself.

 

I for one do not believe you need to geneticly engineer a woman into a man to make the space marine process work. Drugs will be needed, but drugs are needed for male recruits as well. So the issue of having to use drugs is null since both genders would have to use them.

 

As for Kroot...Kroot take on the genetics of the things they eat, or rather can choose too. A Kroot who eats a space marine could change its genetics to have a similar XY base...and then eat a geneseed in order to grow its own space marine implants.

 

My last question comes to this, where is the fluff. Where exactly is the line that states that the applicant must be male. I have looked through the space marine codex and this page http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/1/ and neither states that a recruit must be male.

[Aurelius Rex]

My last question comes to this, where is the fluff. Where exactly is the line that states that the applicant must be male. I have looked through the space marine codex and this page http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/1/ and neither states that a recruit must be male.

You want the bottom of page three of the web article:

These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

1) If men and women had become some kind of homogenized genetic things, we can assume that there would have been no mention of "Geneseed works only for men". That line clearly says there is a fundamental difference between men and women, on a genetic level, that keeps the geneseed from working. So, we can safely say that not everyone is walking around with an XY or XXY setup. It's pretty safe to say, given that, women are still XX and men are still XY.

 

Thats all well and good but you forgot at the time of the Emperors creation this may have been the case, but the thousands of years after could have had a great variation of the genetic makeup by the time of the 41st, as this is a scientific Rationale based society you could easily use evolution to help with anything with increased hormones etc. I realise this may be cheating but no one has really given this theory a more than cursory glance, it is quite plausible within our society and guarented within the Imperium of man

[Darrell]

Thats all well and good but you forgot at the time of the Emperors creation this may have been the case, but the thousands of years after could have had a great variation of the genetic makeup by the time of the 41st

 

So we evolved into a uni-sex race, then reverted back to our dual sex race? That doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

 

As for Kroot...Kroot take on the genetics of the things they eat, or rather can choose too. A Kroot who eats a space marine could change its genetics to have a similar XY base...and then eat a geneseed in order to grow its own space marine implants.

 

Kroot do not transform into what they eat, they only take on certain characteristics (Becoming stronger, faster, tougher, et cetera). Since geneseed is keyed to work on human males, and Kroot are obviously not human (Even if they eat a lot of humans), they wouldn't be able to just chomp on a Space Marine and suddenly be an Astartes. Eating Astartes may make them stronger, faster, tougher or whatever else, but it wouldn't make them turn into a Space Marine.

[Imperial Knight]

Ok this has just gotten way out of hand and is getting no where. For the final time THE FLUFF SAYS NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many have concieded using OUR understanding of genetics NOT in game knowledge that it could be pluasible, that being said it still is not viable in any way. I have yet to read a fluff piece that would convince me otherwise and yes I have read the two better ones in Star Foxes and Fighting Tigers and I am sorry they both left me saying sorry I don't buy it. Again it DOES NOT matter what you or I want. This is a game based on CONTROLLED fiction with SET perameters, you can argue this till your blue in the face but as I have stated before The MAJORITY of players stand by the fluff and if you choose to go your route your just going to have to deal with it. I know they large group that I have joined to game with would either laugh you out of the store and just refuse to take you serious...again some of them are a little extreme in the game....or would just constantly ragg on you and through the fluff up in your face. You have to expect that your not going to have an easy road with this and its your road to take I am just pointing out the simple facts. WE DO NOT WRITE THE FLUFF THE GAME IS BASED ON. So this really kills alot of your arguments this has again as said before become a debate for debates sake becuase niether side on this will give...I have said my piece probably way to much by now so I am out. Good luck but I severly doubt your going to get the acceptance you want for this subject.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

So we evolved into a uni-sex race, then reverted back to our dual sex race? That doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

 

Sorry for the confusion, no in our situation and the one im am arguing from this is not possible though it may be in thier case (I dont have any proof either way so again this can be used to back close to ANY story) at the time of the Emperors creation we could be moving closer to a near uni sex but there is still a varying difference at that time. However there a good number of years in which the adaption could take place for a closer sexes or perhaps there were a uni sex at the Emperors creation and he decided against any female marines for numerous reasons ( sexist, elitist, perhaps he had begun experimenting on men and never considered females?)

 

Also Imperial Knight it is a matter of interpration I could find someones reasoning plausible but you may not so which one of us is more right? I can use real world assuptions as it is based within this world and the pre-hersy imperium was firmly based within darwinistic/scientific rationalism and in post-heresy there is more evidence, Orgyns, ratlings, psykers etc. But I personally see the rules more as guide lines and with a sound and reasonable justification I would allow someone to use the argument, as long as the motives and reasoning were sensible. I see this thread as a way of people breaking from tradition, even if they dont go the female route but it will hopefully add diversity to a sometimes stagnant background.

 

But we are arguing this so if you want to have female marines you can have some solid reasons and to inspire others to be more adventrous, rather than simplistic interpretations we should try and help push the boundaries as it will in most cases help make the game more interesting and diverse. Though you are right this argument is somewhat like asking "is the colour blue i see the same as you see?"

 

 

EDIT

 

Kroot do not transform into what they eat, they only take on certain characteristics (Becoming stronger, faster, tougher, et cetera). Since geneseed is keyed to work on human males, and Kroot are obviously not human (Even if they eat a lot of humans), they wouldn't be able to just chomp on a Space Marine and suddenly be an Astartes. Eating Astartes may make them stronger, faster, tougher or whatever else, but it wouldn't make them turn into a Space Marine.

 

But how sure are you? Is there anywhere that specifically says "no, kroot can not take human genes and thus became humanoid in genetic structure"? I realise this may annoy you but i am putting the burden of proof back onto the offensive as there is no conclusive evidence either way which can lead to any varying interpratation. I realise there is nowhere saying "yes Kroot can become humanoid" but as you cant succussefully argue that point with conculsive evidence i can be equally right in assuming the differing stance regardless of if the evidence does lean towards a non humaoid Kroot

 

And by the way I dont mind female marines as long as there is a damn good reason and a near foolproof reasoning, however Kroot wouldnt stick with me it would requre something close to a miracle for that to work for me

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

This has gone way beyond me. Im out.

 

Darrel has said everything I wanted to say, much more concisely and with more information to back it up. Interesting though this thread is, its just gotten bogged down in a genetics and psuedo-science debate that is going in ruddy circles.

 

By all means keep debating, but another standpoint to launch from would be excellent.

[Pirate King Atomsk]

thanks, you just gave me the idea for kroot marines

[Vashiel]

If the "missing primarch" was everthing everyone would like, there would have to be loads of them.

As for me, I believe in the "Sigmar was one of those 2" theories, so that narrows it down even further, to only 1 Primarch without any background.

[Chief L. Rome]

this thread seems a tad off topic... My opinion (and I'm sure it's somewhre in here also) is this: Can women become Marines? YES. The training might be less hard for them due to their physique. Now here's the other side of the coin. The Lord of Change is not necesarily morphong things into Chaos Spawns but can also be beautiful. Can a Vet. Sgt look at himself in the mirror and say 'WOW I'm REALLY good looking' NO! He's... SHE's a MUTANT in a Marine's Powere Armor, kill HER/Him. And there of course would be a third option; Breeding Take a Brother and mate to a Sister (I know it sounds sick. the results are too) It can cause mutations, and taints that might make the offspring better or worse.

[Decoy]

Just to throw in my two cents:

 

CAN women become Marines? Yes.

 

CAN you have an all-woman Marine army? Yes.

 

CAN you throw that army down and have fun playing it? Yes.

 

CAN you get over the fact that I'd point, fall over laughing to the point of tears, and then mock you until you ran out of the store? Debatable.

 

Seriously, do what you want. Don't expect people to take you seriously.