Ferrata on: The Female Marine Question

[Pulse]

CAN women become Marines? Yes.

Female marines?

 

British Royal Marines = no.

Dutch Royal Marines = no.

US marines = yes.

 

Female Space marines = no. :confused:

[krieger haggoroth]

I agree entirely with Darrell.

 

Ever read about a female Space Marine in Canonical Fiction? NO.

 

Can genetics enhancements designed to work ONLY for men work on Women? NO

 

This isn't a matter of "could women cope with the training?" or "are women GOOD enough to become marines?". Its a matter of basic scientific fact as known in the 41st millenium.

 

 

As for the whole Kroot thing:

 

 

alot you seem to keep bringing up kroot marines, kroot turning into humans and the like. Someone made an argument about "have you ever NOT seen a kroot turn fully into a human?". Here is my counter-question? "have you ever SEEN a kroot turn into a human?". Kroot gain genetic TRAITS of those they devour, not the full GENES...

[Grand Master Raziel]

Okay, Real World science and military practicality aside... :turned:

 

Let's say, hypothetically, you want your SM chapter to consist of sexy Amazons. How then, can you justify that without going against existing background material? I haven't given it much thought, but it seems to me you'd have to dance a tricky dance in the fluff's grey areas. Here are some possibilities

 

1: The Emperor worked it out before the Great Crusade, and just never implemented it on a large scale. The Emp was doing some pretty radical experimentation. It's not outside the realm of possibility that he experimented with female as well as male subjects. Maybe he liked the results he got from male subjects better (stronger warriors being a pretty good reason for that) and just shelved the work he did with female subjects. Later on, someone dusts off that work and implements it for whatever reason.

 

2: One or both of the expunged Legions were female marines. This carries with it an interesting possibility: that the records of those Legions were expunged for their own protection. Maybe their absense at the Siege of Terra cast unwarranted suspicion over them. Maybe Roboute Guillman was shot down by Primarchess Xena (she preferred brooding bad boys like Lion el'Jonson and Corax), or maybe Rogal Dorn was jealous of the way Primarchess Gabrielle hung out with Sigismund instead of him. :sweat: Seriously though, if turning to Chaos and leading a rebellion against the Emperor that almost killed him and destroyed the Imperium isn't bad enough to get someone's Legion expunged from the Imperial records, then it's not unreasonable to postulate that the "missing" legions' records were expunged for some other reason besides being bad. I know utilizing the expunged legions in your chapter's background is considered a no-no, but if there was ever a reason to do so...

 

3: Chaos did it. Freakin' Chaos! Boy, when they call Tzeench "The Changer of Ways", they aren't kidding! Or maybe Slaanesh did it - you have to figure he/she/it is into gender-benders.

 

4: Pet project of one of the Primarchs. He wanted to double his potential recruiting pool, so he worked out a way to make female marines.

 

 

Regarding the hypothetical process itself, under the assumption that you want feminine-looking Amazon marines and not Broadzillas, let's say that it's not the same process that makes male SMs adapted to work on females, but rather a different process that achieves a similar effect on women. Thus, you get an army of Wonder Women, not the Soviet Women's Weightlifting Team.

 

Okay, now, let's say you're hellbent on having a chapter of female SMs (or just female SMs in your chapter), you come up with fluff for it that doesn't insult my intelligence, and you overcome the not-inconsiderable logistical hurdle of coming up with an army's worth of figures that are both recognisably SMs and recognisably female, and the figures in question do not look like ass. Now, you want to play using your female marines but don't want to put up with a lot of flak over them. What do you do? Answer: Strength 3. For reasons previously detailed by other posters, you're not going to get the feminine shape and the masculine upper body strength in the same package. Hence, S3 makes sense for female SMs. The rest of the statline and rules can go unchanged. As far as I'm concerned, if you're committed enough to your female SMs to deliberately take that penalty without any compensating advantages, then I'll play against your female SM chapter with nary a peep of criticism about the setting fluff.

 

Of course, why people care about such things is beyond me. I doubt there are many female 40K players who are feeling left out because they can't field a distaff SM army. The girl players I've met haven't played what you might consider "girly" armies (SoB, Eldar, Dark Eldar). Instead, they've played Orks, Nids, and Tau. So, it's gotta be guys who are concerned about this, which makes me scratch my head. It's like the question of whether or not SMs can get it on. Who cares? It's not like they're going to be getting it on in the middle of the game. When there are female figures on the table, we don't have to make Leadership checks to prevent our SMs from macking on the ladies, unless you happen to be playing The Emperor's Pointy Sticks. Do your SMs get down with the ladies? If it's important to you, then sure, absolutely! Just think about it in the privacy of your own home, or at least from the other side of the gaming table. :pinch:

[Captain Auractious]

Sorry to spoil your fun , The Blue Dragons Chapter (Suspected 11th Legions First Great Companie M29 ) Have Female Apoths in every Unit On BattleField and Are ( Suspected of Having the Gen Tec to Not only Ensure the Growth of Dragon Wings and Ossific Blades and enable the Production of Female Marines) :P :eek

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

alot you seem to keep bringing up kroot marines, kroot turning into humans and the like. Someone made an argument about "have you ever NOT seen a kroot turn fully into a human?". Here is my counter-question? "have you ever SEEN a kroot turn into a human?". Kroot gain genetic TRAITS of those they devour, not the full GENES...

 

No, but you havent seen the reverse either also since when did any of us became Proffesors of the Kroot Metabolic process? of course it appears like traits but after a sustained period of ineteraction who thinks that there is ENOUGH evidence to refute the idea they would have the right genetic makeup to not be able to become space marines?

 

The answer is you cant and I cant answer the other side so if someone was going to use this to make an army, i would find it kind of silly but I still wouldnt say "well according to fluff this cant happen". Because even with the fluff you cant prove it so they are as much justified to use female marines as those who believe that there is a number of unknown primach chapters running around. So again I will put it back up i believe that any reason to mix it up and have good strong background and discussion can only help add to the source of fluff rather than detract from it

[Darrell]

Sorry to spoil your fun , The Blue Dragons Chapter (Suspected 11th Legions First Great Companie M29 ) Have Female Apoths in every Unit On BattleField and Are ( Suspected of Having the Gen Tec to Not only Ensure the Growth of Dragon Wings and Ossific Blades and enable the Production of Female Marines)

 

What is your official fluff source for this information? Since it is a suspected 11th Legion, and they have dragon wings and female apothecaries, I'm suspecting it's a DIY. The existence of DIY female Astartes does not prove or disprove anything in the argument, as this is pertaining to official GW fluff.

[Orkdung]

alot you seem to keep bringing up kroot marines, kroot turning into humans and the like. Someone made an argument about "have you ever NOT seen a kroot turn fully into a human?". Here is my counter-question? "have you ever SEEN a kroot turn into a human?". Kroot gain genetic TRAITS of those they devour, not the full GENES...

 

It's interesting at this point and time we discuss this potential, when back in the day Genestealers would do just this; cultists would run generations of stealer lineage and soon hold the appearance and mannerisms of a human, all the time poisoning a human population without their knowledge.

 

As far as Marines are concerned, my vote is "Ney" With the response, which has been discussed above, why havent the SOBs been given implants, if there were the potential.

 

This subject will always persist until it is produced in writing in an upcoming novel, no doubt.

[Doctor Thunder]

I'd point, fall over laughing to the point of tears, and then mock you until you ran out of the store

I think you vastly overestimate how much your opinion matters to other people.

[BlackRaptor93]

I think that

 

 

1. Though a all female marine army would be... odd, i wouldn't mind in the slightest. Heck, my chaplain herself is female.

 

2. There are endless things GW hasen't written about, so who's to say SM are only male (true, GW has said "no females"), but what about divergent chapters? (The raven guard tampered with the genseed because they where under strentgh, and created mutant marine beasts, so who's to say the genseed couldn't be tampred with to make female marines?).

 

3. It is only a game, and as such, GW aint intrested in real world science much, so there COULD be female marines in reality

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BlackRaptor93

[Grand Master Raziel]

Well, I doubt I'm going to be adding any female Marines to my chapter, but after having a gander at the webite for the Fighting Tigers of Veda, I might make an effort to make some female Inquisitors. Yes, I know there's a female Inquisitor model, but it's fugly. Raja Khandar Madu of the Fighting Tigers, on the other hand, looks pretty awesome, and she proves that a female power armored figure does not need her armor to have scupted boobs to look good. I might try a female Inquisitor in Terminator armor, too. Boobs on Termi armor would look ridiculous.

 

Anyhow, here's a thought: female figures, SM rules, representing allied Inqusitors who have been enhanced with bionics. I know that increasing S and T isn't what bionics does, but on the other hand when SM Redux rolls around there won't be rules for bionics anymore, so they can do anything you say they do as long as you're playing within the rules. So, if you want to say your chicky has SM stats because of bionics, who's going to argue with you?

[Darrell]

2. There are endless things GW hasen't written about, so who's to say SM are only male (true, GW has said "no females"), but what about divergent chapters? (The raven guard tampered with the genseed because they where under strentgh, and created mutant marine beasts, so who's to say the genseed couldn't be tampred with to make female marines?).

 

Games Workshop has written about this topic, saying specifically the geneseed can only work on men. A Chapter's tactical divergence has nothing to do with their geneseed being able to work on men. Space Wolves are the most divergent Chapter we know of and their geneseed needs men to work just like all the others. It's not like this is some mysterious, open-ended idea GW put out and never elaborated on, like the two missing Legions. There is a specific line stating specifically that the geneseed can only work on men.

[Doctor Thunder]

There is a specific line stating specifically that the geneseed can only work on men.

Correct, the Geneseed currently in use by the imperium only works in men.

However, that does not equal no female space marines.

Why?

Because the fluff does not say two very imporant things. It does not say:

1) That geneseed cannot be modified.

2) That there were never any other kinds of geneseed that might be rediscovered. (In fact, there is a LOT of fluff indicating that there were many different kinds of geneseed during the heresy. Refuse has compiled an enormous list of said references, and I'm sure he'd share them with you if you pm him)

 

You may say that female space marines are unlikely, rare, difficult, and most certainly heretical, but GW has never said that they are impossible within the 40K universe framework. In fact, if you like to know what GW staff have said on the subject on this very board, read my sig sometime.

[Aurelius Rex]

It seems pretty obvious that the arguments over this have been pretty well aired on this subject. They are the same arguments that have been played out again and again and again over the years. The attempt to examine it on a more scientific footing than usual was a brave move by Ferrata, but unfortunately the thread has spiralled off into the usual black hole that these discussions inevitably turn into.

 

People are often drawn to the idea of female marines. That is all well and good in the comfort of your own head, but when you post it on a discussion board like the B&C or more specifically Liber Astartes, those people have to accept that there will be feedback in the form of a large majority saying that the idea is not believable or credible.

 

This is the same with any concept that you come up with in your DIY chapter. The more way-out the concept, the better the rationalisation for it must be to allow the reader to suspend disbelief, and because of the categoric nature with which it has been stated that geneseed only works with males, the concept of female marines is one of the harder concepts to rationalise.

 

Ultimately the sign of a good, well written piece of narrative is one that is seen as believable - why intentionally go out of your way to alienate a large proportion of your potential readership - although I have seen people do this intentionally to thumb their nose at the 'establishment' to get a cult following.

 

So if you are thinking of posting your chapter idea for female marines, or any other out-there fringe chapter concept, recognise that your basic idea will be subjected to severe scrutiny and you had better have some darn good reason beyond 'But I wanna have female marines!' to back it up. I would also ask you to examine your motives - don't just do it just to get a rise out of people as that is tantamount to trolling, and be willing to listen to what people have to say when they give feedback.

 

On the flipside, any comments and criticism made on this board should be polite and constructive, and as I have found out on numerous occasions, if the original poster consistently ignores the advice or feedback, then learn to recognise the point where the argument will be unproductive and of no use to either party - just drop the thread and leave those still interested to continue with it alone.

 

This thread, as I said at the start of this post, seems to have gone off-tangent and have exhausted it's useful lifespan with arguments being recycled.

 

It is time everyone cooled down, and it received the Emperor's Peace.