Codex Chaos space marine Q&A

[Final Boss of the Internet]

I see, good to know. But just to clarify again then. Since rapid fire does not work, do assault weapons then?

 

Can I fire my meltagun, then charge with 2 weapons?

[Battle-Captain]

Yes you can fire your assault weapons then charge and get 3 attacks per marine ie +1 for charging and the 2 attacks for the bolt pistol and CCW.

[Tsuden]

Can Termie Lords use a Twin-linked bolter and Daemon Weapon, or is this just wishful thinking on my part? The wargear options for a termie lord say that you can swap his power weapon for a daemon weapon, but when you give him dual LCs you swap out his twin-linked bolter and PW. If both are two-handed weapons what happens to the twin-linked bolter when you buy a daemon weapon? Please help, the future design of my lord depends on the answer.

[Nakuth]

Can Termie Lords use a Twin-linked bolter and Daemon Weapon, or is this just wishful thinking on my part? The wargear options for a termie lord say that you can swap his power weapon for a daemon weapon, but when you give him dual LCs you swap out his twin-linked bolter and PW. If both are two-handed weapons what happens to the twin-linked bolter when you buy a daemon weapon? Please help, the future design of my lord depends on the answer.

 

This also has me slightly confused, although I have a feeling it means that he can only use his base A value, along with the extra D6, without any further bonuses for an extra close combat weapon. Would this be correct?

[Final Boss of the Internet]

As far as modelling is concerned, it might be wise to wait for an errata on this.

 

And they say the new watered-down rules will lessen confusion...

[Kalrik]

Can Termie Lords use a Twin-linked bolter and Daemon Weapon, or is this just wishful thinking on my part? The wargear options for a termie lord say that you can swap his power weapon for a daemon weapon, but when you give him dual LCs you swap out his twin-linked bolter and PW. If both are two-handed weapons what happens to the twin-linked bolter when you buy a daemon weapon? Please help, the future design of my lord depends on the answer.

 

This also has me slightly confused, although I have a feeling it means that he can only use his base A value, along with the extra D6, without any further bonuses for an extra close combat weapon. Would this be correct?

 

 

2 LC's Power weapon, Fist, Daemon weapon, and 1 Lightning claw only replace his MELEE gear, (he keeps his BP).

 

 

it says "may take one of the following" under the options for twin linked bolter, and combi bolter

 

For melta bombs. and Personal Icon it says May Take [/b]Any[/b].

 

For the "Options" read them litterally, they are correct overall.

 

So he could have the following setup

 

2LC's bolt pistol, Combi-bolter, meltabomb

 

My questions:

 

1.) Can Chosen infiltrate with Rhinos?

 

2.) And has anyone come up with a counter Argument for 2+ Invuln saves for TZ Bikers?

 

3.) Since Tzeentch sorcerers have 2 psyhic powers per turn(but one shooting), can you do the following

 

-----3A--> Chaos spawn twice?

-----3B--> Force Weapon two 2 Wound Models

[Night Stalker]

1) no - see Rulebook and dedicated transport rules

 

2) no one

 

3a) nothing say you cant

 

3b) you cant

[Kalrik]

1) no - see Rulebook and dedicated transport rules

 

2) no one

 

3a) nothing say you cant

 

3b) you cant

 

Oh thanks a ton Night Stalker I totally missed that in the rulebook, its part of the "infiltrate" rules though not the transport section

 

"If a unit with infiltrate takes a dedicated transport it loses infiltrate"

 

3b though why?

 

it says I can take 2 Psychic Tests per turn, and a Force weapon normally counts as your Psychic test for the turn, and I don't mean two IC's I mean perhpas an infantry unit with multiple 2+ wound models like swarms, or scarabs or something.

[Final Boss of the Internet]

Where did it say that you can test twice a turn?

[Night Stalker]

first - RAI ( ahriman cant use his force weapon more than once)

 

second - RAW ( force weapon rulebook p.46 - against any one)

 

edit:post above - psychic power section of chaos space marine codex p.88)

[Final Boss of the Internet]

Okay, I see where he is coming from then.

 

But pg88. is done so tzeentch guys can fire a psychic power and then use the force weapon once. So yeah, you can't force kill two people. Unless you do slaanesh.

[Maladon]

Can Termie Lords use a Twin-linked bolter and Daemon Weapon, or is this just wishful thinking on my part? The wargear options for a termie lord say that you can swap his power weapon for a daemon weapon, but when you give him dual LCs you swap out his twin-linked bolter and PW. If both are two-handed weapons what happens to the twin-linked bolter when you buy a daemon weapon? Please help, the future design of my lord depends on the answer.

 

This also has me slightly confused, although I have a feeling it means that he can only use his base A value, along with the extra D6, without any further bonuses for an extra close combat weapon. Would this be correct?

 

Yes, you are correct, you lose the attack dice for having a second ccw weapon, when you have a daemon weapon, its normal attacks + d6(2d6 if khorne) +1 for the charge... Terminators have always lost the second ccw weapon, unless its twin lightning claws! think 3.5 codex model with the terminator lord and the Kai gun model... why would they have put that model out if that wasn't what GW intended to do with terminators!

 

I asked the rules boys, and got grief about knowing the new dex!

[Kalrik]

first - RAI ( ahriman cant use his force weapon more than once)

 

second - RAW ( force weapon rulebook p.46 - against any one)

 

edit:post above - psychic power section of chaos space marine codex p.88)

 

Good enough for me! thankya Sir! Very helpful you are!

 

Slaanesh can Insta kill a whole lot of people a turn with their Daemon weapon too bad you'd never see one on the table =/ That'd mean one less lash =P

[Large and Moving Torb]

2.) And has anyone come up with a counter Argument for 2+ Invuln saves for TZ Bikers?

 

 

Not sure, but I'd guess the counter-argument is going to be based on the adverb "normally" in the MoT rule. Chaos bikers "normally" have a 3+ armour save - only in a special case do they have an invulnerable save. Thusly, Bikers just get the 5+ invulnerable save when the unit is given an IoT.

 

Mind you, I'm not promoting this line of thinking, just offering it up. But I really hope they clear this up in the FAQ.

 

Or maybe they will just clarify in another printing and not tell anyone about it. :D

[Final Boss of the Internet]

2.) And has anyone come up with a counter Argument for 2+ Invuln saves for TZ Bikers?

 

 

Not sure, but I'd guess the counter-argument is going to be based on the adverb "normally" in the MoT rule. Chaos bikers "normally" have a 3+ armour save - only in a special case do they have an invulnerable save. Thusly, Bikers just get the 5+ invulnerable save when the unit is given an IoT.

That actually makes sense. Thanks for that.

 

Another question I found, and it could be just me trying to find loopholes, but maybe it is possible to make a dread with two missile launchers?

 

Upgrade to a CCW, and replace both for Missile Launcher.

 

Now, in the codex, it states, "One close combat arm (along with its twin-linked bolter) may be replaced with a missile launcher for..." One way to interpret this is that you can only do this twice, hence the emphasis on 'one'. Another way, is to say that it simply means that it is a one for one exchange. You replace one for the other, no limit set as long as you have arms.

 

Another thing is what it is written afterwards, "If the Dreadnought is left with no close combat arms, its Attacks..." Why would they say "if"? The dread only has one CCW arm. Replacement is free, so who would pay the extra points for the extra arm, only to convert one arm into a missile launcher? Well, maybe that is done so you can have a dread with a CCW and a Missile Launcher. But wouldn't that be easier if you just were given the option of getting a Missile Launcher?

 

What do you think about this?

 

1. Am I basically being an ass in interpreting the rules in the latter form?

2. If I could do that, would a dread with 2 Missile Launchers be considered "cheesy"?

 

Personally, I would like to model that thing, as I do have extra dreads sitting around.

[Maeklos]

I don't see why you couldn't swap out both arms on the dreadnought for missile launchers. I mean, you pay the points for it, and it's not like the model becomes unbalanced because of it. It'd be like setting up a TLLC/ML Loyalist dread.

[Kalrik]

I don't see why you couldn't swap out both arms on the dreadnought for missile launchers. I mean, you pay the points for it, and it's not like the model becomes unbalanced because of it. It'd be like setting up a TLLC/ML Loyalist dread.

 

Sadly the entry reads... " > ONE Close combat arm may be replaced ..." so no, only ONE, the trick to the entries is to read them littterally, just like ONE twin linked bolter can be replaced with a heavy flamer (I so wanted a 2DCCW 2 Heavy flamer dread) only one missile launcher arm can be taken, however, either or Arm can be a ML, so you can have a ML and DCCW or a ML and a heavy weapon, etc.

 

 

You know if we got dreadclaws I'd TOTTALLY use a dreadnaught, but right now, a first turn missile(well 2) into something I own's backside is not very appealing.

 

also nice sig Maeklos, I laughed my ass off the first time I read your donkey reply, and its still funny...

[Maeklos]

also nice sig Maeklos, I laughed my ass off the first time I read your donkey reply, and its still funny...

 

Yah, very rarely do I ever say or write anything that I laugh about myself, but that still makes me smile.

 

As for the arms...

 

Sadly the entry reads... " > ONE Close combat arm may be replaced ..." so no, only ONE, the trick to the entries is to read them littterally...

 

Yep. It says ONE CC arm...but it doesn't say ONLY ONE, yeah? That's a logic misstep that people usually take. Here's a common thought experiment illustrated that misstep:

 

Q:A man has two children. One is a boy. How many sons does he have?

A: Two. Both of his children are boys.

 

You see, just because ONE is a boy does not preclude the other one from also being a boy.

 

Likewise, since the entry says that ONE arm may be replaced, it doesn't say ONLY one may be replaced.

[Kalrik]

't say ONLY ONE, yeah? That's a logic misstep that people usually take. Here's a common thought experiment illustrated that misstep:

 

Q:A man has two children. One is a boy. How many sons does he have?

A: Two. Both of his children are boys.

 

You see, just because ONE is a boy does not preclude the other one from also being a boy.

 

Likewise, since the entry says that ONE arm may be replaced, it doesn't say ONLY one may be replaced.

 

Technically the answer would be Greater than or Equal to 1 or !=0

 

=P

 

You know something, I didn't think of it like that, I believe 3.5 codex said "A Single" which was eventually construed as only 1... but ONE does leave room for interpretive Dance... I hope you're right, cause I REALLY want a 2DCCW with 2 Heavy Flamers, Running up the field burning everything with the Sweet fires of Tzeentch!!

[Maeklos]

Yeah, given how disappointing the Chaos dreadnought sounds (with increased Fire Frenzy or something like thaT), I was thinking of working up another dread with dual DCCWs and Heavy Flamers to replace my old converted Word Bearer dreadnought with plasma cannon, DCCW with Heavy Flamer, and a Havoc Launcher.

[minigun762]

Can Termie Lords use a Twin-linked bolter and Daemon Weapon, or is this just wishful thinking on my part? The wargear options for a termie lord say that you can swap his power weapon for a daemon weapon, but when you give him dual LCs you swap out his twin-linked bolter and PW. If both are two-handed weapons what happens to the twin-linked bolter when you buy a daemon weapon? Please help, the future design of my lord depends on the answer.

 

This also has me slightly confused, although I have a feeling it means that he can only use his base A value, along with the extra D6, without any further bonuses for an extra close combat weapon. Would this be correct?

 

Yes, you are correct, you lose the attack dice for having a second ccw weapon, when you have a daemon weapon, its normal attacks + d6(2d6 if khorne) +1 for the charge... Terminators have always lost the second ccw weapon, unless its twin lightning claws! think 3.5 codex model with the terminator lord and the Kai gun model... why would they have put that model out if that wasn't what GW intended to do with terminators!

 

I asked the rules boys, and got grief about knowing the new dex!

 

So it seems to me that a terminator lord packing a TL bolter and daemon weapon is totally fine rule-wise.

Not extra attack from a 2nd CCW but terminators never got that anyway besides 2x claws.

Hmmm interesting....

[Night Stalker]

3.5 codex dread with dual DCCW and smokes and extra armour and searchlights costs 99 points, and hardly any one consider him - now cost 115 (!) points and have nerfed crazy rule.

 

GW is mad.

 

3.5 codex dread with DCCW and Plasma Cannon and smokes and extra armour and searchlights costs 124. now same dread cost 120.

[Final Boss of the Internet]

Sadly the entry reads... " > ONE Close combat arm may be replaced ..." so no, only ONE, the trick to the entries is to read them littterally, just like ONE twin linked bolter can be replaced with a heavy flamer (I so wanted a 2DCCW 2 Heavy flamer dread) only one missile launcher arm can be taken, however, either or Arm can be a ML, so you can have a ML and DCCW or a ML and a heavy weapon, etc.

That's the thing, either literal way that you read it, it seems that you can still have two missile launchers. See what I am saying? If it said, 'a single' like the H. Flamer entry, I guess I would not contest it. Maybe it was done to allow more options?

 

But this line of thinking also opens up new things, like an all champion squad.

 

Either way, I hope that an errata comes soon.

[Gman]

I've seen the codex and I'm actually not terribly upset by it. Not as I thought I was. I just got done making an Alpha Legion army with tons of converted cultists. So I was upset about that. But now, I've realized I can make a cool themed warband, minus the cultists models.

The great thing I see about how they laid out the codex is, we have options like the SM traits. Using squad icons, or even the pure cult marines, you can make "counts as" armies and come up with your own fluff whey they are what they are. I'm turning my Alpha Legion into a cult of Hydra worship, using Nurgle icons across the board, so my entire marine force is T5.

 

The other cool thing about icons is, the squad still has all the standard equipment and options of normal CSM. Both a bolter and pistol, as well as CCW. Frag and krak grenades, and all the special and heavy weapon options. Plus the benefit from the icons.

 

Not to mention, an icon can be given to ANY marine unit in the entire army list. Yes that means havocs, raptors, bikers, chosen, terminator(they are seperate choices now).

 

Terminators have a minimum squad size of 3. This is interesting because you can buy a dedicated landraider transport for those three guys, meaning you can have an army with 6 landraiders.

 

Bikers don't have the extra attack in the profile like before, but they are equiped with pistol and ccw, and so by BGB, they have two attacks. But their special weapons now change out the pistol, not the bike gun, so you loose an attack on those models.

 

All of our previous special characters ie Typhus, Abaddon, Khârn, Lucious etc, are no longer special characters. They did what they did to DA, and made them normal HQ independant characters, with set costs and equipment. This combined with no more restrictions on combining cults in one army, you can take any HQs you want in any army you feel like. I personally plan on using my Abaddon for any of my armies 1500 or more. He is a bit more pricey then before, but is mad. They basically combined his two weapons giving him 4 +D6 attacks, at double strength, but still at an initiative of 6. And the best part kids.....he rerolls both to hit and to wound. MAD I TELL YOU. He has termi armor with plus one to the invuln save, can't be instakilled, and still has the combibolter.

 

Khârn is also crazy. They seriously beefed up his WS stat, his axe is the same as before, he has furious charge built in and stil immune to psychic stuff, and now has an invuln save. He is a standard HQ so you can take him and only him if you want. But he does still attack his own guys on rolls of 1. B)

 

They did seriously diminish the things you could give champions, it's basic like the DA codex is. Lords have a little more options then a champion, but no more super builds like before. Greater demons are kind of nasty now, and a Demon Prince starts out kind of nasty, and has a few options available that can make him great in CC.

 

Chosen are awesome. If you have seen the Veterans squad rules for DA, it's very much the same. Let's just say you can have up to 4 guys in a squad with some kind of close combat weapon upgrade, or three with close combat upgrades, and one with a ranged weapon upgrade. And they have infiltrate as standard, and can take an Icon. One can be upgraded to a champion. So imagine, a 5 man squad, 2 power weapons, 2 powerfists, and an icon of khorne, they are now 3 base attacks, 4 for the champion. Hmmm goodness.

[styx]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I just recalled after looking over the book that now the HQ Character no longer has a retinue option. So when they go into a reserve game, they are a seperate unit.