The newest Chaos codex

[Lord_Stetson]

Ok, i haven't been on the board in a while, and was just curious as to other peoples opinon. Now, as for myself, after reading the brand new chaos codex, i felt as though someone went and dusted off my old 3rd ed. codex, took out all the legion specific stuff and put it up for sale. i like chaos, and tried to keep an open mind. but no matter how hard i try not to, i keep seeing an inferior book. is this just me?

[Black and White]

Ok, i haven't been on the board in a while, and was just curious as to other peoples opinon. Now, as for myself, after reading the brand new chaos codex, i felt as though someone went and dusted off my old 3rd ed. codex, took out all the legion specific stuff and put it up for sale. i like chaos, and tried to keep an open mind. but no matter how hard i try not to, i keep seeing an inferior book. is this just me?

 

It ain't just you man. Jervis is in charge of 40k... look back at the rules he's written, and you'll see why the new books are sucking so much.

[Iacton Qruze]

I thought the book was very well done, and it did what they set out to, which was to favor the post heresy renegade chapters more than the old legions... I expect we'll see them again later on. We did well in the days before legion specific armies, and we'll do well after.

[Black and White]

I thought the book was very well done, and it did what they set out to, which was to favor the post heresy renegade chapters more than the old legions... I expect we'll see them again later on. We did well in the days before legion specific armies, and we'll do well after.

 

New renegades is fine and good, but it dosen't mean the book had to be so bloody bland. Also, renegades by all logic should have just as much new equipment as regular space marines, which they don't. The can write new fluff all they want, but looking at the ARMY LIST and RULES, its just the first v3 codex with a few tweaks, a big step back from v3.5 in terms of flavour, rules, and general uniqueness.

[Elchimpster]

New renegades is fine and good, but it dosen't mean the book had to be so bloody bland. Also, renegades by all logic should have just as much new equipment as regular space marines, which they don't.

True. They should certainly have all the assault cannons they want. :rolleyes:

 

The can write new fluff all they want, but looking at the ARMY LIST and RULES, its just the first v3 codex with a few tweaks, a big step back from v3.5 in terms of flavour, rules, and general uniqueness.

 

And most importantly POWER. The new codex has seriously toned down the CSM which was IMO WAY overpowered in the 3.0/ 3.5 dex.

 

I dunno. I agree with the balancing, but they could have done such without making everything generic.

[Belger31]

I've been a Dark Angels player for years and when the new codex came out for us I felt the same way. The loss of the ability to customize an army is a bummer because I always liked doing unique things, but I see why they've simplified everything. Too many players sit down and comb codexes to find the best combinations of units and wargear for the buck. It makes the game almost impossible to balance. Chaos was the biggest offender, because there were so many options. My friend has a demon prince that reaps through my Deathwing Terminators like nothing. It flies, always has initiative, can ignore the first wound I cause on it, and I am not allowed a save on wounds it causes. In other words, the most reknowned terminator force out there is completely impotent against one model.

 

I'm used to the new codex format now, and so I don't really sympothize with you unless this new codex will require you to re-model a lot of your units (Been there, so I understand). In fact, I like the models that are coming out so much that I've pre-ordered the chaos army deal and will soon be joining your ranks.

[Lord_Stetson]

Thats exactly my point, you said it for me B&W. Chaos 3.5 had a flexability that made the army so very attractive. it didnt matter what kind of army you wanted to do, as long as you thought the list through you could do it. I play necrons, I.G. and a very shooty loyalist army as well as chaos. Chaos was my pure assault force, and now its gone. i like shooty armies, but chaos was so wonderful because you could do a good assault army that didn't rely on specialists.

 

And as far as power.... Any of the codecies out there can be made extreamly powerful (just look at eldar) chaos needed some things fixed (like only having one printing of the codex instead of 3) but the army wasn't overpowered. It could be taken out by any well thought out list (even deathwing....i watched the game!). The list is no less powerful than before, just more static.

[Brother Kardon]

sorry for hijack but how did you get the new dex as it isnt out yet

[Child of the Emperor]

I don't share the sentiment about everything getting hosed... As information has come out I've been interested in how the new CSM would play... Granted it is DIFFERENT, but not unplayable as long as you adapt to the changes. The game designers decided that a greater division between CSM and daemons were needed, so we must all adapt our gameplay to incude fewer daemons, or eliminate them entirely.

 

My general take is that the changes seems to be better aligned with the fluff, since most games I've played or observed with cult-aligned CSM tend to be demon-heavy.

[Joasht]

sorry for hijack but how did you get the new dex as it isnt out yet

Because alot of us do :rolleyes:

 

Anyway I went through the codex yesterday, and I think aside from the whole "you can mix and match your cults now", I think the codex is fantastic. Of course, I'm mainly a loyalist dude and I've already tasted Jervis's work before so this codex wasn't a surprise to me at all. His stuff takes getting used to and there will always be parts of his work that none of us would agree on, but ultimately all codices are going this way so its not really a big problem.

[The Defiler]

I'm not that disappointed as I already knew it was going to be inferior to the previous one (due to JJ' 's vision, and thus streamlined rules to the extreme).

 

The 'previous' codex was not absolutely good, of course, in fact sometimes, with no self restriction, it was in fact an open door to create abusive lists, but, it was full of flavour. It was Chaos as all of us expected !

 

What should have been done is fixing things to make it more balanced.. That's all.

 

This 4th Ed codex is just a free sample of Chaos... No flavour, just imperial marines with spikes and dirty horns.. And rules that do not fit with the theme. Why Renegades Marines should trade their Assault Cannons with Reaper Autocannons ? Where are their Land Speeders ? Where are their Techmarines ? And their Scouts ? Thrown to the Warp ?! Yeah, sure... :rolleyes: A real codex Renegades, and a real codex Chaos SM should have been more than welcome (or at least a Renegades section in the book..)

 

But no.. we have a bastard concept instead.. just between angry Loyalist Marines, and not real Traitor Legions..

 

Strange..

 

It looks in the way it's written a lot like the first 3rd Ed codex: no options/silly options, bland army.. which means a big step backward... And by the way, talking about 3rd Ed 'dex... where is Doomrider ?!!!! I want him back ! (as the worst special character ever made !)

 

Gav Thorpe has never been know for his excellence in writing rules.. Sometimes it's overpowered, sometimes it's ok, sometimes it makes no sense, but this guy seems nice (even though Angels of Darkness is the worst BL book ever written... sorry Gav'...). And about Allessio Cavatorre, he seemed to have a good feedback with what he did with WHB.. I hoped rules should be at least average. I'm not sure they even are average..

 

Ok, ok, it's still possible to play with those rules.. But, man, where's the fun ? Does it smell real Chaos in here ?

They wanted to get things balanced ? Come on, everybody's talking about the cheap Mark of Slaanesh/ Lash of Submission/ Thousand Sons/ compulsory Obliterators/ Lash of Submission/ compulsory Obliterators . Not the same options as before, but even more cheesy...

 

Actually, I'm asking myself what is the most disappointing... this flavourless codex (in terms of rules, the other parts are almost ok).. or the streamlining of the whole game... (making it boring)...

 

TheDef'

[Elchimpster]

I've been a Dark Angels player for years and when the new codex came out for us I felt the same way. The loss of the ability to customize an army is a bummer because I always liked doing unique things, but I see why they've simplified everything. Too many players sit down and comb codexes to find the best combinations of units and wargear for the buck. It makes the game almost impossible to balance. Chaos was the biggest offender, because there were so many options. My friend has a demon prince that reaps through my Deathwing Terminators like nothing. It flies, always has initiative, can ignore the first wound I cause on it, and I am not allowed a save on wounds it causes. In other words, the most reknowned terminator force out there is completely impotent against one model.

 

I'm used to the new codex format now, and so I don't really sympothize with you unless this new codex will require you to re-model a lot of your units (Been there, so I understand). In fact, I like the models that are coming out so much that I've pre-ordered the chaos army deal and will soon be joining your ranks.

 

 

Thing is, Daemonettes, Bloodletters, Nurglings, Horroes, Flamers, etc...all are now "Lesser Daemons".

You can totally use the models with no problems to make them fit the look of your army.

 

 

 

sorry for hijack but how did you get the new dex as it isnt out yet

Because most of the folks who have a copy...have it in a way that cannot be condoned on B&C.

[Maladon]

Of what I read of this new codex, this book can be abused just as much as before... minus the min max squads and multiple other choices that legion specific rules had...

 

At least we aren't seeing the super daemon of carnage any more.... hahaha, no more daemon weapons for daemons! :rolleyes:

 

Also, in case people can't tell, I like the new dex, and hope to the gods I can start a new army soon.... reviving my (fill in the blank) legion army again!

[Maeklos]

Because most of the folks who have a copy...have it in a way that cannot be condoned on B&C.

 

I had a dream about the new codex and just wrote down everything I remembered. I'm sure it will all be legal. After all, seems like the new codex was the result of a night of binge drinking and one of the guys waking up with a copy of the old 3rd edition codex stuck to his face with stale vomit.

 

I'm seriously thinking of going back and using the Traits from C:SM to build a Chaos army. Take the Fight to Them and See But Don't Be Seen are great traits for my budding Alpha Legion army, and I'll stick them with the drawback cutting them back to 2 HS, FA, and Elites slots, and the minor drawback forbidden Librarians. All seems to fit in with the Alpha Legion better than the hoo-hah crap in the new Chaos 'dex. And, they'll still be able to Infiltrate. Friggin' A.

[Lord Ragnarok]

With respect to generic that seems to be the trend. And I'm over that by now.

 

That said, I love the rules in the new dex. I'm bias'd because I've been planning a renegade list which would could use different marks(red corsairs) which this new dex exemplifies. That said, I think they did drop the ball fluff wise having so many recent traitor chapter suddenly lose all of their loyalist weaponry. But that is a nit pick.

[Lexington]

Maybe it's just me, but army list genericism seems like the savior of 40K.

 

Huzzah to Jervis and his new rules philosophy!

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe it's just me, but army list genericism seems like the savior of 40K

 

it isnt just you, its GW as well. everyone else finds it boring.

 

im an ultramarine player and may i just say that i think the new Codex is no good. its rules are serviceable enough, it works on the table fine, but its lost its heart and soul, whilst taken away many armies identities (now everyone is generic chaos and no longer legion specific).

 

i dont think the new method of simplification Codexs GW is doing is the right road to go down. until now there was no problem with people working out lists, so why make the list so limited?

 

i am however in favour of balancing the army, though why that meant killing off individuality i dont know. maybe GW is being lazy, or more likely having seen the work JJ did on the original 3rd edition Codex and its rather bland and boring lists its easy to point the finger...

[The Defiler]

Maybe it's just me, but army list genericism seems like the savior of 40K.

 

Huzzah to Jervis and his new rules philosophy!

 

Maybe it'll be the savior...

Maybe it'll be its doom...

 

It's to early to say what's gonna happen... but there's a beginning of a feedback trend...

 

With their new codex, some Dark Angels players said 'What the... ?'

With their new codex, most Chaos players are saying 'Are you kidding us ???' even though the codex is not yet released..

 

And what will Orks and Dark Eldars players (who are waiting for such a long time, these poor buddies **hugging them all**) say when their turn arrives ? Or even IG ? Space Wolves ?

 

Time will tell, but I think GW' sky will not be that much blue and shiny...

 

:P TheDef' :tu:

[Maeklos]

I feel for the Space Wolves. I mean, we were expecting to lose some of the more exploitable rules, but be left with the spirit of the former codex intact. We were trading in our steak and lobster dinner and expecting a somewhat less fancy (but just as meaty!) chicken-fried steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Instead, we're being handed a protein bar and told to suck it up. WTH?

 

The Wolves are expecting the loss of a few options, but for their codex to remain mostly intact. My thoughts? It's going to be butchered. The Wolves are going to fall in line as another pseudo-codex chapter with a few aberrations. Rune Priests are going to become Librarians with a few specific Wolf powers. Wolf Priests are going to become standard Chaplains. Iron Priests will become standard Tech Marines. Everything else will lost that "specialness" and just become codex analogues. Or it will become a clone of the Black Templars, with Blood Claws replacing Neophytes in "Wolf Packs" (read, Crusader Squads). The fluff will change to fit the "new direction". And many Wolves will get fed up and leave.

[Penmarch']

 

i dont think the new method of simplification Codexs GW is doing is the right road to go down. until now there was no problem with people working out lists, so why make the list so limited?

 

i am however in favour of balancing the army, though why that meant killing off individuality i dont know. maybe GW is being lazy, or more likely having seen the work JJ did on the original 3rd edition Codex and its rather bland and boring lists its easy to point the finger...

 

Absolutely right! It doesn't even feel like Chaos anymore. 25+ of, exactly the same chapters/legions/ warbands/splinter groups almost without options to differentiate one from another. That's bland in my book.

 

Worst thing IMHO however is that GW seems unable to keep fluff and facts consistent in a single book.

Take a look at the 'new' chapters starting on page 18. Frequent mentioning of 'combat drugs', chain axes, 'grand batteries' for the Iron Warriors, 'hit and run tactics' and so on. Try to find ANY of these in the rules.

 

Mind you, when I put exactly the same comment on Warseer my post got banned as 'useless whining'. Is it? Or am I right in thinking this is quite misleading for a novice player?

 

Oh, the army will still be very playable, in fact it might prove to be a godsend for Tournament Powerplayers. I already saw some extremely powerfull army list here and there, that if played well, could end a game in one or two turns. Only, it won't be a Chaos- as in Chaotic - army

 

Better next time.

[Lord Humongous]

Also, renegades by all logic should have just as much new equipment as regular space marines, which they don't.

 

The old legions had massive support infrastructures they took with them. Chapeters do not have this self-contained support structure. Thus, newer, chapter derived regnades ALSO would not have said support structure. Thus, anything they can't maintain / rebuild in the field (which would, after a brief time, include assault cannons and land speeders) they would have to give up on.

[pyroguy]

Now come on, the new chaos 'dex is cool. Its not quite as powerful, and ok the tooled up lord and prince choices have melted away, but the cult troops are far more than evil space marines with a mark. Theres a lot more character there. And ok in fluff there should be chaos land speeders and plasma cannons, but that would be sick, and we dont need that. We can find a way to make a fluffy army without the put down a beardifex lords and the 12 attack khorne princes of Doom. I mmean really, If you guys have to complain, at least make an argument that isn't just "I want to still be cheesey". I mean, really, the new 'dex is really fluffy, you guys are just having withdrawls from the old one.

[Maeklos]

I mean, really, the new 'dex is really fluffy, you guys are just having withdrawls from the old one.

 

Remember that when the next SM codex to come out is Codex: Ultramarines and lacks traits, non-UM characters/options, and GW still maintains that it can be used to build any Chapter...so long as they are exactly the same as Ultramarines.

 

That's what has happened with the new C:CSM. You can build any Legion you want...so long as it's exactly the same as the Black Legion.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Chaos Lords with daemon weapons still have the potential to eliminate squads by themselves.

 

Chaos Space Marines are the ultimate in flexibility with the ability to holster their bolter and charge with their bolt pistols and chainswords, not to mention whatever icon you choose to give them (mark of Tzeentch to allow them to shrug off Banshees anyone?).

 

For myself I'm glad to see the Daemonettes toned down, I've had too many experiences with them turning up and slaughtering whole squads before I could react.

[Belger31]

I certainly don't think GW is getting lazy. The problem is enabling individuality without players exploiting it. How do you do that? Before a codex is even released players have already done the math on what units and wargear configurations are most deadly. Everyone uses those super-units, plays them using the same tactics, and suddenly individuality goes out the window. I think GW figured this out and decided to do the math for us, so to speak.

 

I will be playing chaos for the models and the story line. I don't care that demons will all use the same stat line. I think the models are some of the best in the game and that will help me enjoy painting and converting them. I can't wait for those rumored plasctic demons to come out!

 

As for this supposed demon codex coming out, I don't know what its all about. Is it an expansion or add on like Grey Knights are for Space Marines? Is it a stand alone army like Dark Angels are to Space Marines? My guess is that they will be to Chaos what Grey Knights are to Space Marines. I've only seen rumors, though, so I'm not going to hang my hat on anything.