The newest Chaos codex

[AkiraCho]

Sure, I can have troops. But: I can't have termies, havocs, chosen, any kind of HQ choice, any daemons..... I don't care about winning (much), but it would be nice to have a legal plaguemarine army. With nurgle daemons.

Without buying a second codex.

 

You can have all of the above. They just don't have special nurgle specific rules. Nobody says you can't paint those units, or any other units Deathguard colors and field them. If you fail to see that, then you are exposing yourself as somone who cares more about the advantages you used to get from playing DG than the "fluff" behind DG.

 

Wrong. I cant use them, because THEY ARE NOT PLAGUEMARINES. I do not care whether they are nurgle followers or not, I cannot use them in a DG army because they are not Death Guard. Like it says in the fluff. That is my main objection. I couldn't care less if my troops suddenly couldn't move more than 2" per turn and shoot, or some other mad penalty, but I won't break the fluff. I would pay extra points happily to be allowed to use proper plaguemarine troops, but I am being denied that basic choice.

 

That is a choice I have made, not to cheat and use the powergamey combos. In fantasy, by the way, the Lord has to have the same mark or the mark of undivided, which is fluffy. Slaanesh lords can't lead Khornate armies, just for reference..

 

here here brother, i will never take the choice of taking devestator squads with a mark of nurgle, mortrion taught us better than that! :teehee: death guard marines only for death guard players! har har!

[Sception]

As per new model syndrome: I wish! Why are raptors so cheap? They didn't get new models, and people hardly buy they ones there are (I mostly see people converting them with chaos marine or berserker bodies and those packages of space marine jump-packs). And why do the rules for possessed reek like week old tuna? They've got the shiniest new models of the bunch!

 

This was an attempt at balance. But it wasn't done very well, and they didn't playtest their final edits to death. I imagine the process was write, play test, edit, play test, edit, play test, edit, print. The lash was probably leadership based in the last play test and since everything leadership based is lousy they declared it bad so they took out the leadership requirement on the move part in the last edit before printing. Boom, too good. Like the Skull Clamp.

 

It will probably get semi-nerfed in an FAQ. Royal prediction - they'll change it so all the models in the unit have to move the same distance in the same direction, keeping their current formation. That's not the way it works now, that's just how I'm predicting they'll go about nerfing it (sadly, it will also be an unneeded nerf to the overpriced blaster masters).

 

As per Deathguard player: If you can't bring yourself to 'proxy' your deathguard as identically equipped nurgle-iconed marines with basically the same rules they used to have anyway, then shelf your models until GW gets around to doing a Death Guard list in white dwarf. If I were you I'd play while I waited, but hey, that's just me.

[minigun762]

Ok something just dawned on me that really has me pissed off.

As many of you know, I've been a big fan/supporter of the new Possessed Marines.

Sure they aren't what I wanted them to be, but hey I tried to be optimistic and think what they would be good for.

But I think I might have run out of energy trying to do that.

My intention was to run them with my lord, kind of a daemonic bodyguard and have the whole group charge out of a land raider but then it hit me.

 

If I roll Furious Charge, I don't get to use it because my IC doesn't have it.

1/3 of the special abilities are really only useful without a transport while the other 2/3 really require some kind of transport.

Feel No Pain is a nice thing, but honestly with power armor and a 5+ save on a 1 wound model, its a luxury.

So here I am, stuck with the fact that only 1/3 of my rolls AFTER deployment will actually really benefit me. Thats saying alot for an already overpriced model.

Hell right now I'd love if they cut the cost of the model 3-4 points and totally removed the daemonkin ability. I know they won't but still.

 

I'm really pissed they ruined one of the cooler models/units and I'm really torn if I should even attempt to use them. I'm sure this is old news to many but I've tried hard to smile and think positive and I just can't. :teehee:

[Lord_Stetson]

...And still can't get frag grenades.

[Chaoswolf]

Isn't strategy and tactics a way of taking what you've got and using it to best effect? Isn't it also the mark of a good tactician to be able to beat the other guy BY USING SUPERIOR TACTICS to counter his army? That's what I always thought. I think that the whole 'unbeatable chaos army' is a myth perpetuated by people who aren't good enough tacticians to beat it. Sorry, not trying to create hatred and discontent, but there it is. I play Black Legion (so I don't think the new 'dex is gonna affect me too much), and I've gotten my butt handed to me with some regularity by members of my local gaming group who are BETTER TACTICIANS than I am. And , yes I used the uber-deathmonger DP from heck that killed everything it touched for a while and he died quite frequently to SUPERIOR TACTICS.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that's what it comes down to. You know you're playing against a chaos army, you know what the 'tricks' are, you make allowances for them, and then you win. Simple as that.

 

So please stop using that as part of your arguments about why you're glad someone else's army just got neutered. And, yes, some of them DID get neutered. Without anasthetic.

[Bannus]

If I roll Furious Charge, I don't get to use it because my IC doesn't have it.

1/3 of the special abilities are really only useful without a transport while the other 2/3 really require some kind of transport.

Feel No Pain is a nice thing, but honestly with power armor and a 5+ save on a 1 wound model, its a luxury.

So here I am, stuck with the fact that only 1/3 of my rolls AFTER deployment will actually really benefit me.

This is actually something I think they did right.

Chaos is suppose to be flexable because...well....it's Chaos.

The only problem with that is that players don't select their armies in a chaotic manner as well. In fact, most Chaos armies I have seen are very structured and organized......doesn't sound at all like Chaos to me.

 

I think it would be great for even more units to have to roll for some type of effect after deployment - it really demonstrates the fickle nature of Chaos - does it not?

[Brother Pete]

Chaos is suppose to be flexable because...well....it's Chaos.

 

I dont think its supposed to be Chaos = Random

More like the Chaos gods are capricious and fickle and do whatever they like to you. They bend reality to their whim an couldnt care less about any of the laws of the cosmos.

 

The randomness of the posessed rule could have been determined before deployment, then your general could have looked at them and decided what to do with them on the day.

[Celestial Dragon King]

What it really boils down to (as it has for the new DA and BA rules and soon enough for Space Marines) is that strategy and tactics will be the deciding factor on the tabletop instead of the special rules.

 

Which is as it should be.

 

Everything has "special rules". Most are not asking for that rule that "makes me win special rule". You're right, tactics do win the game but those tactics are based on how you use those "special rules" wether they be your jump troops doing their special move or where you place termis when they do their special teleport move. Almost everyone that lost something are willing to pay or take a disadvantage for their "special rule" too. I payed for most of the time with useless AL cultists but I liked them and they were part of the fluff.

[Capt.Cerberus]

If I roll Furious Charge, I don't get to use it because my IC doesn't have it.

 

Just want ot point out, that this is not true. Certain USRs can be used even if not all models currently part of the squad have them. Check the section in your rulebook, only USRs with a '*' require every model of a squad to have this specific USR, i.e. Infiltrate.

[Penmarch']

 

Everything has "special rules". Most are not asking for that rule that "makes me win special rule". You're right, tactics do win the game but those tactics are based on how you use those "special rules" wether they be your jump troops doing their special move or where you place termis when they do their special teleport move. Almost everyone that lost something are willing to pay or take a disadvantage for their "special rule" too. I payed for most of the time with useless AL cultists but I liked them and they were part of the fluff.

 

Exactly so Capt Cerberus! Because that way it would be YOUR army and not a carbon copy of all the others.

Ironically, the purest, as opposed to the real powerplayers, got hit the hardest.

[minigun762]

Chaos is suppose to be flexable because...well....it's Chaos.

I think it would be great for even more units to have to roll for some type of effect after deployment - it really demonstrates the fickle nature of Chaos - does it not?

 

I can accept that to a certain degree but this is too random. I wouldn't mind if we rolled on a table for abilities but everything could be used in any situation, or atleast the same situation. As it is now we have 2 movement effects, 1 defensive effect and 3 offensive effects.

Add this fact a model that is almost universally regarded as overpriced and you have something that isn't going to be used by the majority of people.

 

Speaking to the random nature of Chaos, I think a better example of that done well is with daemon weapons. Very powerful but like all power, the wielder might get burned.

But even that randomness is contained in a small region, namely the assault phase and doesn't totally dictate or alter the units use.

 

EDIT: Captain, I'll have to check that again, I thought it was all or nothing. So if they still get it, thats better but much of my arguement still stands.

I just feel like they were designed poorly rule-wise.

[mannstein]

This was an attempt at balance. But it wasn't done very well, and they didn't playtest their final edits to death.

 

They never do, I reckon, unfortunately. If they did, they wouldn't screw up as badly as they do as often as they do...

As per Deathguard player: If you can't bring yourself to 'proxy' your deathguard as identically equipped nurgle-iconed marines with basically the same rules they used to have anyway, then shelf your models until GW gets around to doing a Death Guard list in white dwarf. If I were you I'd play while I waited, but hey, that's just me.

 

Oh, I reckon hell will freeze over before they get off their lazy backsides and publish WD lists for the cults. I hope I'm wrong, I really do, since I love the DG. But, seeing as how I have half a dozen other armies in boxes, I don't think I will be stuck for an army that isn't castrated. And, really, its not like I don't have the ability to write my own lists that actually work... :P

 

I sit here sometimes and wonder if the "suck it up" brigade realise that what has happened to the cults is basically the same as saying "yes, you can play codex marines, but your termies, scouts, dev squads, assault squads and HQ choices all have to carry a little flag with an eagle on it, and if the guy carrying it dies, that squad becomes IG in PA..."

 

I don't wish that on the loyalists, but if it has happened to chaos...

 

@penmarch': Couldn't agree more.

 

Welcome to the brave new world, its going to get "better" and "better".. especially if you are part of the ignored majority who don't actually play in tourneys...

[Maeklos]

Welcome to the brave new world, its going to get "better" and "better".. especially if you are part of the ignored majority who don't actually play in tourneys...

 

It's sad, because Chaos will probably still dominate in tournaments, for the simple fact that GW has taken away the "cheese" and left an uberkilly list centered around Lash of Submission being used in conjunction with Berzerkers and Thousand Sons. That's it. Everything else is redundant, aside from a devastator squad or two to work anti-tank duty.

[Belger31]

Wrong. I cant use them, because THEY ARE NOT PLAGUEMARINES. I do not care whether they are nurgle followers or not, I cannot use them in a DG army because they are not Death Guard. Like it says in the fluff. That is my main objection. I couldn't care less if my troops suddenly couldn't move more than 2" per turn and shoot, or some other mad penalty, but I won't break the fluff. I would pay extra points happily to be allowed to use proper plaguemarine troops, but I am being denied that basic choice.

 

Apparently "the fluff" in 4th edition has changed a little bit to match the needs of competitive and balanced gaming. Since GW writes "the fluff", they are within thier rights to modify it. To my knowledge there is nothing in the new codex to base your rant upon. Who says you can't call your terminators or bikers plague marines after you've modeled them as such and given them the mark of Nurgle? Who says you can't use your plaguebearers? Who says you can't field the great unclean one? Nobody! Field all the same units that you used to, call them Deathguard and nobody will object. Just be sure to follow the rules for the units as they are defined in the codex.

 

Only Slaneesh armies should be heavily affected by the changes because of the loss of sonic weaponry on dreads/termies/etc. I am sorry for them. You and your Deathguard army are just fine, though.

 

That is a choice I have made, not to cheat and use the powergamey combos. In fantasy, by the way, the Lord has to have the same mark or the mark of undivided, which is fluffy. Slaanesh lords can't lead Khornate armies, just for reference..

 

Irrelevant. This is 40K. Apparently things changed over the course of 40,000+ years.

[Lord_Stetson]

Belger31, does this mean that you admit at least one god got it in the testicles?

[BrainFireBob]

Three points-

 

1) To the Deathguard gent. In the fluff, Plague Fleets are aspiring Plague Marines accompanied by real Plague Marines. So yes, it is in fact fluffy to have gents with icons.

 

2) Sonic Weaponry. If you've converted your entire army, then counts-as comes into effect. They're differently modelled bolters. If you haven't, then you have Noise Marines and regular marines. Either way- you've got a legal army. And let's not mention fielding lots of Noise Marines as Troops choices.

 

3) To the IW player who responded to my remark about no IW player bemoaning his gain of Fast Attack: LMAO, you smartass. That was hilarious.

[l192837465]

i'll agree that Slaanesh got hit the hardest, but death guard players should rejoyce, if not be at least CONTENT with the new book. 120 t5 guys with FNP and blight grenades? uhm... yeah? i know i'm in the "get over it bracket" and i'm sorry you feel that way, but look at the positives! (except for the possesed... they just flat out suck)

 

t5 terminators

throw in some bikes and have T6 BIKES

dev squads.

 

make it as fluffy as you want, but if you're going to say "this codex nerfed me" and "i'm going to listen to its fluff" isn't that slightly oxymoronish?

 

i'm just curious...

[Belger31]

Belger31, does this mean that you admit at least one god got it in the testicles?

 

Not so much the god. I think Slaneesh armies will be very competitive with the new codex. If you were someone who converted models to have sonic weaponry for the last codex, you got it in the testicles for sure. I have a friend who fields pure Slaneesh and he's not complaining, but he didn't do all those conversions. It is a shame that all the work put into nice conversions some people did for 3rd edition will go to waste. Maybe when that rumored new codex comes out GW will throw those people a bone, but I wouldn't count on it. From what I've heard its supposed to be based on demons, not legions. Apparently you will be able to either field all demon armies or use it to supplement a chaos army. Sort of the same way imperial armies can use Grey Knights. I don't know what anyone else has heard, though.

[redbeard]

2) Sonic Weaponry. If you've converted your entire army, then counts-as comes into effect. They're differently modelled bolters. If you haven't, then you have Noise Marines and regular marines. Either way- you've got a legal army. And let's not mention fielding lots of Noise Marines as Troops choices.

 

You cannot use counts-as when you have so many identical weapons on so many different units that all have to be something different. How do I tell my opponent that the blastmaster on my dreadnought is really a twin-linked lascannon, the blastmasters on my havoks are actually heavy bolters, the blastmasters on my terminators are really reaper autocannons and the blastmasters on my troops are actually blastmasters. Don't you think that would be a bit confusing for them? Counts-as does not supercede the requirement that weapons are modelled WYSIWYG, and in the circles I play in, that is an important distinction.

 

And, no, I don't even have lots of noise marines as troops either. I have a couple of units, neither of which are valid under the current codex because they each have a plasmagun or meltagun, and their champions have equipment that's no longer legal for them (lightning claws).

 

I spent over $1000 less than a year ago and have an army where my only legal choices now are an HQ, a landraider, and a couple of units of lesser daemons. Whereas, I could field upwards of 3k points legally before, in a number of different configurations, and have my army compete for 'best appearance' awards at tournaments.

 

I honestly don't care what they do with the rules. I will adapt to the rules. I agree with the comment below that a good tactician adjusts to what they have available. But, to me, this new codex is the worst thing I've seen any game company do, ever - and I've been gaming for over 25 years. Not because of the rules in it, but because of the complete disdain they have shown towards veteran gamers by invalidating so many of our models. There is a reason GW's stock prices are plummeting, and the attitude they are showing to the veterans is one of the causes. I really hope that they get their crap together, in a hurry. At least, from the last corporate report, they've identified that they have a problem. Perhaps too late for this codex, but I really do like the game, and the universe it is set in. But, I'm not spending another dollar on GW stuff until my army is playable again. They need to win my business back by demonstrating that they care about something more than profits.

[mannstein]

Three points-

 

1) To the Deathguard gent. In the fluff, Plague Fleets are aspiring Plague Marines accompanied by real Plague Marines. So yes, it is in fact fluffy to have gents with icons.

 

Is it fluffy for the "elite" of the army to be aspiring? Or the HQ? Or the core heavy weapon squads?

 

No.

 

Aspiring means "wanting to be". Not "elite armour and gear but no experience"....

 

Think carefully. You are asking me to accept something that does not match the fluff as is or the fluff as was. I will not do that, not because I'm simply being awkward, but because it is not consistent with anything in 40k.

 

make it as fluffy as you want, but if you're going to say "this codex nerfed me" and "i'm going to listen to its fluff" isn't that slightly oxymoronish?

 

Not really: I draw a very clear line between the fluff and the rules. The rules have hurt those who want to play by the fluff.

The fluff says that DG fight on foot: why would I want bikes /raptors?

 

The fluff says that termies are the elite of the chaos armies: why are the rules now making them weaker than the line infantry?

 

The fluff says that the warbands of the chaos legions are led by the most powerful warriors of the gods: why are they not marked to the same standard as the cult infantry?

 

All I ask is that the fluff and the rules are consistent, something GW have never been good at.

 

Irrelevant. This is 40K.

 

No, it isn't: the ancient enemies rule has been present in 40k since RT. Why has it been dropped now? To make the game "simpler"? This is the kind of flavour the purist is annoyed with losing, since it automatically creates powergaming possibilities and isn't consistent with long-established fluff. Thanks, GW, you just goofed big time... all for the loss of a paragraph of text.

 

Really, what I'm saying is that they have lost sight of why people play the game: it isn't the tourney scene, which is attended by a minority, but the casual player, who plays for the fluff and the variety. As it stands, broken armies will be on the net in days, and every noob/unimaginative power junkie will be using them. Unfortunately for those of us who are fluff purists, the rules are getting further from the fluff with every codex....

[styx]

Welcome to the brave new world, its going to get "better" and "better".. especially if you are part of the ignored majority who don't actually play in tourneys...

 

It's sad, because Chaos will probably still dominate in tournaments, for the simple fact that GW has taken away the "cheese" and left an uberkilly list centered around Lash of Submission being used in conjunction with Berzerkers and Thousand Sons. That's it. Everything else is redundant, aside from a devastator squad or two to work anti-tank duty.

 

 

Actually, it has moved to Eldar and NidZilla lists it seems.....

[BrainFireBob]

2) Sonic Weaponry. If you've converted your entire army, then counts-as comes into effect. They're differently modelled bolters. If you haven't, then you have Noise Marines and regular marines. Either way- you've got a legal army. And let's not mention fielding lots of Noise Marines as Troops choices.

 

You cannot use counts-as when you have so many identical weapons on so many different units that all have to be something different. How do I tell my opponent that the blastmaster on my dreadnought is really a twin-linked lascannon, the blastmasters on my havoks are actually heavy bolters, the blastmasters on my terminators are really reaper autocannons and the blastmasters on my troops are actually blastmasters. Don't you think that would be a bit confusing for them? Counts-as does not supercede the requirement that weapons are modelled WYSIWYG, and in the circles I play in, that is an important distinction.

 

And, no, I don't even have lots of noise marines as troops either. I have a couple of units, neither of which are valid under the current codex because they each have a plasmagun or meltagun, and their champions have equipment that's no longer legal for them (lightning claws).

 

I spent over $1000 less than a year ago and have an army where my only legal choices now are an HQ, a landraider, and a couple of units of lesser daemons. Whereas, I could field upwards of 3k points legally before, in a number of different configurations, and have my army compete for 'best appearance' awards at tournaments.

 

I honestly don't care what they do with the rules. I will adapt to the rules. I agree with the comment below that a good tactician adjusts to what they have available. But, to me, this new codex is the worst thing I've seen any game company do, ever - and I've been gaming for over 25 years. Not because of the rules in it, but because of the complete disdain they have shown towards veteran gamers by invalidating so many of our models. There is a reason GW's stock prices are plummeting, and the attitude they are showing to the veterans is one of the causes. I really hope that they get their crap together, in a hurry. At least, from the last corporate report, they've identified that they have a problem. Perhaps too late for this codex, but I really do like the game, and the universe it is set in. But, I'm not spending another dollar on GW stuff until my army is playable again. They need to win my business back by demonstrating that they care about something more than profits.

 

See, you're running things different ways. Obviously, you'd have to pick what you were counting them as- in the case of blastmasters on dreads, terminators, and havocs, I think you'd have to call them all autocannons. Since that'd be consistent, it'd be the same. And since it's valid for all those units, you're covered.

 

It's the fact *you* want to replace your blastmasters with heavy bolters in the havocs, a twinlinked lascannon on the dread, and a reaper on the termies that makes it not work as counts as- not that counts as doesn't work.

[Sception]

Even then it doesn't work, because the blaster master is still a blaster master in noise marine squads. Counts As doesn't allow a weapon to be one thing in one squad and another in another squad.

[BrainFireBob]

Except he said he didn't have very many noise marines, didn't he? Means that's not going to be an issue.

[minigun762]

I'm sorry but just continuing my rant.

I'm really upset that they managed to screw up a great looking new model who has awesome fluff behind it in the new Possessed.

They would have been just fine with the +1S and 5+ save honestly.

kinda like chaos versions of Wulfen from 13th company.

But the price hike combined with the totally random and non-complimentary (my biggest issue) powers is what does it for me in a negative way.

 

I just have to ask what they were thinking?