The newest Chaos codex

[Night Stalker]

they will be fine even with such powers (if you will choose them before deployment :/ ) if they would cost 22 - 23 points.

[Tokunator]

Although I can certainly feel for the players with fully converted and now illegal armies (as an Alpha Legion player I lost 40 converted cultists too), I think that I have to play the Devil's advocate for once:

 

- Assume you want to publish a book allowing players to field armies for 4 gods and undivided armies.

 

- You want to be very clear, so every unit entry in the army list should contain every possible upgrade for said unit (which is a good thing, we all have to admit).

 

- You have a limited amount of pages at your disposal.

 

--> Under those premises, you will get a list like the one we have now.

 

 

GW (or anyone else for that matter) just couldn't publish a book with a single entry allowing regular Terminators AND Terminators with a Mark AND Legion Specific Terminators all with specific options and upgrades (sonic weapons, Feel no Pain...) and so on for Raptors, Bikes, Chosen, Dreadnoughts, Havocs.... within a reasonable amount of pages. Remember that the 4 Legions would all impose significant changes which couldn't be summed up in one sentence ( sonic weapons, Feel No Pain and -1 Ini, the need to have a sorcerer and Slow and Purposeful, no bolters and Furious Charge for Khorne...) so they couldn't be added as easily as the Icons, nor could they have simple rules like the Marks.

 

In addition, such a list would be a nightmare to playtest due to the sheer amount of options.

[Beef]

and a waste of trees. Save the Rainforests etc

[BloodRed]

Would it have been so hard to include an entry like this:

 

Cultists (Troops)

WS 3 BS 3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv6+

10-20 per unit, 8 points each

Wargear: Close Combat Weapon, Laspistol OR Lasgun

One model may take a flamer +5 points, a meltagun +10 points,

Upgrade one to a Cult Leader + 10 points (+1 attack, LD 7) - power weapon 15 points - personal icon 5 points

 

I just made that up off the top of my head. It took me less than 5 minutes to solve the alpha legion problem. Don't chaos to be a potential horde army? Limit it to 1 per unit of chosen taken (representing the infiltrating marines who raised the cults up).

[DARKTROOPER]

yeah, My group is considering keeping the legion rules around (I.E stealth adept and others) but not the armoury, but IDK...my biggest complaint is the organization!!! Possessed and chosen are listed before DAEMON PRINCES!!! in the fluff section but in the army list it is the proper order.makes it a hooker to find stuff...and they have special rules tossed all over the place...BAH! BAH I say! BAH!

[AngelPride]

Ok... I just read this thing in detail...

My thoughts

 

Holy Crap, I think in the trial and error progression of the JJ codecies This book has gotten it almost perfect. (no... wait... did I really just write that, this cant be right, .... wait yes I did, one moment while I find my bolt pistol, bolts, and forehead and aquaint them with each other)

 

This thing is beutifull, My Dark Angels are now questioning thier vows of devotion to the emperor

 

Only a few points of note

1. Still would like to see a few more weapon options for the daemon prince. The loss of power specific greater daemons is a major blow, but if it will be addressed in a codex:demons later then I find that acceptable

 

2. On special Characters. WS # is a bit much IMO, WS #-1 would have been good for everyone but Khârn. Speaking of GREAT GODS OF CHAOS Khârn. You likely will never see an army without a Khârn, and/or a mix of the other special characters ever again. For thier points they are massivly distructive. They are above and beyond even a chapter master in the DA/BA codexes in shere distructive potential, though they lack any synergy (the balance i guess) other than that... Fabius... WHY isnt that clown a foot note yet? Azmodi is robed of the unforgiven but Fabius passes the chaos cut... Im confused. another character in there is finally up to his fluff in rules and power on the board I will let you all speculate who Im talking about.

 

3. The rest of the chaos list is just glorious. It does leave out some of the old options and invaladate a big chunk of models (as is well versed in the discussions above)

 

IMO the nightlords, alpha legion, word bearers, and iron warriors could have been given a half page each (2 pages total) to maintain some of their specialized rules (not all, maybe the key points, such as a cultist troop entry and a note on infiltration for alpha legion, a Basilisk entry, tank hunting and bunker busting options for iron warriors, a dedicated chaplain entry for word bearers, and an option to take raptors as elites and fast attack choices along with night vision for night lords) This would have gone a long way tward the smoothing over of what appears to be the biggest concern for chaos players, invalidated models.

 

The major power books might have done with a 3 page entry each (1 page of legion specific fluff, 1 page of special rules, and 1 page for their power specific special character)

 

Only other thing is the new massive restrictions on the customizability of your chaos lord/daemon prince. That went about a mile past the 3 mile finish line for what needed to be done. Not total overkill like the mighty blow from the Nurf Hammer the characters in the Dark Angels and Blood Angels dexes got though, you guys should count yourselves lucky in that regard.

[Sception]

and a waste of trees. Save the Rainforests etc

 

Actually, the rainforests aren't being chopped down for paper. That's a big misconception. The leading US paper companies recently sold off a lot of their land because they had too many trees. That's right, too many. They were growing trees on their stock land (yes, land that once was natural forest, but still) faster then they could cut them down for paper to sell.

 

The Rainforests are getting cut down for slash and burn agriculture and grazing land. Those are extremely complex societal issues that, yes, do stem in part from western/european/'developed world' meddling but sadly cannot be traced solely to that. Rainforests (indeed all wetlands) need to be protected, and there's nothing wrong with conserving paper, but conserving paper isn't enough and if you care about such issues you need to go further.

 

 

Sorry for the OT post, though.

 

On topic, the new codex has some good ideas and units, but also has several bad ideas and units. I like it better then the last book for my own black legion, less then the last book for other chaos armies, and all in all don't have a very high opinion of either when considered as a batch of game rules.

[Night Stalker]

as an Alpha Legion player I lost 40 converted cultists too)

 

I lost 30+ converted cultist and i'm not whining :teehee:

 

and:

-no NL unit have been invalidated.

-no WB unit have been invalidated

-IW should not have basilisk in the first place

-AL cultist have been bined :) - but hopefully in C:C part 2 they will find their place

 

changes happend from time to time - its time to adapt.

[Lord Humongous]

I've had a closer look, and I'm a bit more disapointed than expected.

 

The single thing that hacks me off the most is the cost of chaos icons. This should NOT be a fixed cost. They clearly are worth more in a large unit than a small one. And more to the point, this severely reduces army flexibility in small games. In a small game, you need multiple small units. But you simply can't afford multiple small units with icon-based marks, so you pretty much are forced to use units that don't have icons.

 

Indeed, the whole codex seems geared towards "bigger is better" thinking. Big games, big units, big numbers of vehicles... big cash outlay.

[DARKTROOPER]

One thing that also annoys me is the loss of my beloved hit and run on my raptors...its is probably the worst next to making my lord not quite as domstat as he used to be...

[styx]

as an Alpha Legion player I lost 40 converted cultists too)

 

I lost 30+ converted cultist and i'm not whining :rolleyes:

 

and:

-no NL unit have been invalidated.

-no WB unit have been invalidated

-IW should not have basilisk in the first place

-AL cultist have been bined :( - but hopefully in C:C part 2 they will find their place

 

changes happend from time to time - its time to adapt.

 

Apocalypse...cultist armies are back in it...

[Lord Humongous]

Even then it doesn't work, because the blaster master is still a blaster master in noise marine squads. Counts As doesn't allow a weapon to be one thing in one squad and another in another squad.

 

I'm pretty sure it does IF those squad types can't have the same weapon type, and the squad types can be easily distinguished. Noise marines can't have autocannons. Dreadnaughts / terminators / havocs can't have blastmaters. Thus the same bit serves two different functions when put on those two different units. Its as if an army could have both storm bolters and twin linked bolters (the old LatD could) - how do you tell the difference when the bit is likely identical? By the unit which that bit is put on.

Hell, it might even be the exact same weapon, only with different stats due to the skills of the USER. Tank hunters has pretty much this effect, so its hardly without precedent.

[Gree]

You know I just looked at the codex at my local store.

 

Biggest disapointment ever. I'm probaly going to switch to Eldar now. This codex is a massive disapointment in all aspects.

 

Read this review from Dakka Dakka, sums up evereything perfectly.

[Brother Nihm]

as an Alpha Legion player I lost 40 converted cultists too)

 

I lost 30+ converted cultist and i'm not whining :rolleyes:

 

and:

-no NL unit have been invalidated.

-no WB unit have been invalidated

-IW should not have basilisk in the first place

-AL cultist have been bined :( - but hopefully in C:C part 2 they will find their place

 

changes happend from time to time - its time to adapt.

How about units, champs and lords with Daemonic Visage, y'know, the only thing that was remotely fluffy in the last 'dex? :)

WB's Dark Apostle is no more, replaced by a 'counts as' Chaos Lord.

[minigun762]

Hey I have a question/comment for cultists for AL.

Is there any reason you couldn't use them as lesser daemons?

The summoning would just repsent them appearing from their hidden bases when required/planned.

The stats would be a bit high, but you could say the cultist have some temporary daemonic powers or have been drugged up, which would represent the high LD and 5+ save.

[PanzerSmurf]

Here's the thing... It's the new rules, stop nagging about them, I personally hate some of the changes made, and other things are rather to my liking, but we'll just have to learn to use the new rules. All in all, the codex aint out yet...

[Night Stalker]

How about units, champs and lords with Daemonic Visage, y'know, the only thing that was remotely fluffy in the last 'dex? :)

WB's Dark Apostle is no more, replaced by a 'counts as' Chaos Lord.

 

how they are invalidated ?

 

terror marks on mine are perfectly WYSWYG last time i checked :rolleyes:

if ever will be any rules for NL some fluff things will return for sure

 

Dark Apostole is and was chaos lord with other name and with daemonc weapon - i'm sure it is WYSWYG as ever.

 

do rules change - well 3.5 also change rules for some things - as well as 3.0 ... in recent 4.0 they try to put more attention on basic trooper.

[AngelPride]

You know from a NL perspective, you can still do the all raptor army....

Ok so you cant see in the dark... I feel for you but since most night lords armies I have seen are in fact raptor armies, why do you need to see far in the dark? For that matter how many night fight games do we all play? really?

 

Emperors Children. Ok so your longer range sonic weapons are in shorter supply, but your short ranged ones are about as common in your squads as a bolter is for a marine. Still, I expect there will be a few EC rules in a White dwarf down the line

 

Iron Warriors: Kinda miss the option for a servo arm (or harness) for your chaos lords, an entry for an 0-1 basalisk would have been nice. I would expect a WD entry here later down the road too

 

Alpha Legion: Cultists would make anothe good WD 2 pager down the line, along with AL infiltrators.

 

Soo... as I see it you just need to be patient and wait for the WD article to update your respective legion. It'll happen.

[DARKTROOPER]

The only problem angel pride is WD doesn't do new rules anymore they just have pretty pictures and lame batreps...but yeah as a NL I came through ok, but I feel bad for Word Bearers...

[Night Stalker]

it is pity that summoned daemons are so weak ... maybe in next codex it will change - right now WB are forced to play marine way.

[the jeske]

in recent 4.0 they try to put more attention on basic trooper.

that's a joke , right ?

because the focus of the new codex is all about the special/marked units . a 10 man csm squad with all the upgrade it needs cost a hell lot of pts . Even when considering an all comers army the marked units have the better options[fearless , don't have to take 10 to get 2 special weapons etc]. With so many options for good and diffrent armies cut ,all we have now is a weaker version of a counter army . And that army has huge problems with dealing with nids and eldar ,and whats more shocking , DIY sm . I mean just look at this forum or other large forums out there , the number of people saying they play NL/AL/WB etc is down like never before . The IW players still try to build an gun line amry out of the new codex , but it doesn't work. Even here in the undivided section of the forum most people talk about useing marked units or icons . Lash makes all HQ slanesh ones . Sure the codex is more powerful then the DA/BA , but hey those were made personaly by JJ . I only thank god that thorpe wasn't the only person working on the codex or thigns would realy be grim.

[Astaroth]

i am however in favour of balancing the army, though why that meant killing off individuality i dont know...

Can't see how this kills off individuality. Really, if anything, it makes room for far more individuality. Unfortunately for GW, their new design ideas put the responsibility for creating unique armies in the hands of its players, who seemingly can't do anything without Papa GW holding their hand.

 

Seriously, this isn't hard, guys. Want to play Word Bearers? Paint your army red with silver trim, and make up some Chaplain-style Lords. Heck, take lots of Daemons if you must acknowledge that frakkin' silly idea of the Children of Lorgar as the Daemon Legion. There. You're set.

 

Want to take Iron Warriors? You've got Vindicators. You've got Havocs. You've got (unrestricted!) Obliterators. Go wild, kids!

 

If you need instructions on how to properly work out a World Eaters list, then you are beyond my help.

 

No, the problem people are having isn't a lack of individuality, it's a lack of specific, unmistakable directions on how to stratify a single army list in order to get game-based advantages. Lord knows that we can't be expected to restrict our army choices without specific incentives to do so. We need our armies to be special, GW! I can't be expected to make the army I want to make if it's not going to make me win more! You mean I have to compete with other players without my beloved, boring, easily-exploited crutch? God, the inhumanity of it all. I didn't get into wargames to make tactical decisions. I got into them to win, dammit!

 

When I say that the genericizing of 40K will be its savior, I don't mean that it'll reverse the plummeting GW sales figures. What I mean is that it will root out the unimaginative, the power-grabby and the infantile, and maybe leave me with a player base worth playing against.

 

...I love you. Seriously, you are my new hero.

 

The new Chaos Codex is akin to World of Warcraft (holds up flame combat-shield) when they made all pet attack speeds the same for the hunter class. This enabled people to choose whatever pet they wanted, not just the ones with the highest attack speed. Still, people somehow argued that "individuality" was lost with that change. How? The "individuality" of every hunter worth his salt taking the same damn cat everywhere?! Horsie-poo, I say. Now you're free to choose whatever pet you like, instead of what is the best.

 

Chaos is the same now. Instead of EVERYBODY choosing the same Khorne/IW/Slaanesh demon army or creating the same generic "rip-your-Terminators-a-new-one" Daemon Prince statline, you can create your

own daemon prince any way you like.

[minigun762]

Continuing the WoW reference, I like how they gave people more options in some case, the same as changing the pets to the same attack speed.

However the problem is, people are always looking for that advantage (read exploit/cheese) and now instead of pet attack speed, its about focus dumping abilities in WoW just like how I see alot of DPs with wings and leash becoming the standard.

 

In both games actually, I want it to be viable to take what I want and make a viable army. maybe not ultra competetive but one that I can take to a tournament and not be humiliated with.

 

To me thats options, when you can have 10 different Chaos players and 10 different distinct armies.

Not 10 copies of the same overpowered units being spammed.

[Astaroth]

By then, I'll probably end up using the new Codex: Space Wolves for my Alpha Legion, with my traitors acting as OBEL scouts (if they still have them...). But I don't think the C:SM Redux will happen anytime soon...at least not for another two years, at the least.

 

EDIT: Again, the point isn't that people miss their beardy/cheesy/etc armies. It's that they miss *their* armies. DG isn't DG. It's just BL with marks and icons. None of the uniqueness that made DG different in the previous 'dex. World Eaters weren't just a BL army with marks and icons of Khorne and a unit or two of Berzerkers thrown in. They were their own entity.

 

...How were they their own entities again? The only way they differ is in that they don't get angry anymore and no more Khornate Chainaxes, which, you gotta admit, were scary against normal Marines and downright terrifying against Terminators.

 

Nothing is stopping you from fielding an army made entirely out of Berzerkers (as I believe they're troops now, no?) and a Chaos Lord with a Mark Of Khorne and some close combat goodies. The only difference now is OH NOES no more Khornate chainaxes and your lord isn't pimped out to the max to make him an unstoppable terror. Sure, you might have lost the Bloodthirster and Bloodletters, but those were kinda overpowered I believe (although they might be retouched in a new codex or somesuch), and you still have the Greater and Lesser Daemon entries.

[Night Stalker]

well i mean basic trooper (chosen,cult troops,terminator) not basic troop choice (chaos space marines) :D

 

besides chaos marine is good choice to fight horde armies :sweat: versatile etc. its battlefield task is not killing other marines.