The newest Chaos codex

[Corrin Storm Fox]

Anyone that thinks that the previous codex was balanced needs to share what they are smoking. I have 2 thoughts for you: Iron Warriors and Khorne. Lets see, Demon Prince with stature and dreadaxe, 9 oblits, 5 man plas/las squads, and 4 heavy support...that should be enough to beat a new player so hard they don't want to play the game anymore. Oh, you still have some fight in you, let me get my other army. Tooled up demon prince that can survive 2000 points of tau shooting without taking a wound (i have done it), bloodletters for troops, and 18 khorne bikers...oh, and 3 defilers to punch holes in your army. Still wanna play 40k lil jimmy? I didn't think so, have fun with heroclix.

 

I love chaos, but I got so bored with the unbalanced power of the last book that I converted to the Church of Russ, maybe I will look at chaos again with this one. I like the changes that they are making. It allows people to build armies that are inline with the storyline (which they are finally fleshing out). Individuality comes down to painting and writing a good story, not using it as an excuse to abuse an army list.

[Joah from Alberta]

The new chaos codex is rubbish. 75 point oblits without any anti-infantry weapons killed by krak missiles . Ten man CSM squad with only one heavy weapon. No skills selection. Mandatory krak and frag load out (I can just see chaos warriors packing their lunch while they're at it). Defiler that can fleet but can't fire it's 60 point cannon in the same turn (just take a generic greater D for 50 point less). Poorly written text with multiple gender inference to miniatures (that have no gender) "he can have this", "he can have that' puke. Poorly organized rules layout with multiple unit references located one in the beginning half and one in the latter half. Rehashed pictures (and text no doubt) from older books. Some pictures are just so darn ugly you could find better art in any local tattoo parlor.

 

The new chaos codex is so pitiful when compared to other gaming house publications. Example the new 4th edition AD&D is coming out soon and I can guarantee you that it will be a work of love and not just something pooped out of someone's oversized hat. From what I can tell, the only thing people will be playing now are DP worth 155 and slaneshi termies, lots of them. It's deplorable, so much so that if a class action lawsuit was plausible I would head the charge.

 

I strongly suggest that people do not buy this product as it encourages wrongful support. I encourage the community to continue using chaos codex 3.5, maybe with revisions. I dunno, whatever, I guess it will take the island to sink before they finally realise the error of their ignorance. (And yeah, I am disappointed.)

[Kradle]

In interest of another opinion on the matter could someone PM me the link to the online codex? I really want to know what everyone is on about!

 

Peace..

[Sception]

The new chaos codex is rubbish. 75 point oblits without any anti-infantry weapons killed by krak missiles

 

 

I'm just going to stop there because I've read this rant written by many others many times now.

 

Before anything else, Oblits have a 2+ save v. krak missiles. If they fail it they auto die, just like they did under the 3.5 codex. There is literally no difference between T4(5), which they were, and T4, which they will be, as far as a krak missile is concerned. A mistake like this so early in your analysis leaves me with little motivation to read the rest.

 

PS: even nerfed, oblits are still awesome. They were just that good before, and every other anti-tank option available to chaos has been removed or equally nerfed.

[El Magnifico]

i think it is hilarious when people start condemning the new codex.

 

i diddnt play chaos before because of the blatant room for powergamers (str 8 Daemon prince with dread axe for example :D). The new codex is still very harsh but you will actually have to think about what you are taking (*GASP!*) because certain things have been changed.

 

Obliterators are still very mean for very few points, the new Daemon prince is awesome but so is the lord and if you are not a completely assault based army, the scorceror is pretty damned mean as well (not that the scorceror is a pushover in assault either)

 

i saw a game played with the new codex (2 GW staff) on saturday. Versus orks. at the end of the game, there were no orks left (from an army with NO vehicles) and chaos lost about 300-400 points worth of stuff. Said ork player has been ranting that the new codex is overpowered ever since :D. (i must admit that havocs with 2 close combat weapons basic caught me of guard as well)

 

 

 

the new codex is still harsh, all the options you used to have are still there - you just need to find them. if you dont like it, switch tot he inquisition and destroy the chaos scum ;)

 

 

*innocence proves nothing* ;)

[Brother Nihm]

How about units, champs and lords with Daemonic Visage, y'know, the only thing that was remotely fluffy in the last 'dex? :D

WB's Dark Apostle is no more, replaced by a 'counts as' Chaos Lord.

 

how they are invalidated ?

 

terror marks on mine are perfectly WYSWYG last time i checked :D

if ever will be any rules for NL some fluff things will return for sure

 

Dark Apostole is and was chaos lord with other name and with daemonc weapon - i'm sure it is WYSWYG as ever.

 

do rules change - well 3.5 also change rules for some things - as well as 3.0 ... in recent 4.0 they try to put more attention on basic trooper.

The Apostle was a bit more than that, and he is invalidated in that Demagogue and the Accursed Crosiuz is no more. The only way you can get a 4+ invulnerable save on your lord is to take the MoT.

 

You can easily do away with most of the problems with adapting your force to the new codex, by following the 'counts as' principle - however, the feel for your legion is no longer supported by the rules in any way. (I'm not talking about unit selection here but the actual rules)

 

Example: Your terror markings 'do nothing' (except look cool ;)) now, whereas Daemonic Visage gave a -1 LD penalty to your enemy. (very fluffy for NL)

[Phosis]

Um. All I have to say, is wow.

 

I've been playing sons for 3 years. They are my first and only army. Just when I learn them well and can win with them, they turn extremely competetive.. I've used the new codex at my gaming store for over 10 games now, and I've lost one. Some of these people were undefeated for months, such as a necron player and Black Templar guy. 1000+ pts, you can slaughter any opponent. I think they are overpowered now, and now that I've beaten the power gamers in my store, there will be 4 Thousand Sons armies springing up soon, all with Ahriman.

 

Sadly, I'm sure they will all be unpainted armies of plastic and pewter. So be it.

 

Let me put it this way, you take away any benefit a plasma gun ever had, a powerfist, and Rending might as well not be there. Sure I failed a few invuls, but 3+/4+ is amazing against any army. Just watch out for low strength weapons. Run in front of a Tactical squad and you will lose at least 2-3 rubrics. Not good. Oh, and a Daemon Prince with warp time and wind of chaos is nasty indeed.

 

-Jason

[stinkoman]

Wow, I think that's the single most insulting post I've ever read on the B&C. You know what? Stick it. Just stick it.

 

Telling Chaos players that they're whining because they miss their cheese? Stick it. That's like telling SM players that they don't need Codices: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc, etc, because Codex: Space Marines is good enough. Want Templars, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels? Just take more assault squads! Want Dark Angels? Just take some plasma guns and plasma cannons in your devastator squads! It's all the same, you can do it if you're smart enough!

 

And the new Chaos codex doesn't even have traits to work out individual Legions/Chapters/etc.

 

Seriously, man. Stick it.

 

Are you saying you want individual codices for every legion (Like space marine chapters)? Because if that's not your arguement, then this doesn't make sense. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. may look like Space Marines, but they are not. They are now totally unrelated army lists. That separation has been made clear now with the explicit publication of independent codices of Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I'm sure you're aware that the next printing of Codex:Space Marines will follow the template of Codex:Dark Angels, Codex:Chaos Marines, etc. Then what will you base your arguement upon? Chaos just happened to get revised first.

 

I've been playing since 2nd edition. Now i always just thought of Chaos as another SM variant (like SW, DA, BA, BT, ETC), they just happened to be bad SM. Now i didnt get a chance to read past the first page, but I actually like the codex. never ready the current one though, so i have an unbiased opinion on it. I think the units are really powerfull but also really expensive. You get what you spend your points on. I can still see making legion specific armies. If you want nurgle terminators, paint/model the new plastic termies in a nurgley fashion and add the mark of nurgle in the army list. Still different than the normal termies. Seems like JJ left all of that personalizing up to the player.

Um. All I have to say, is wow.

 

I've been playing sons for 3 years. They are my first and only army. Just when I learn them well and can win with them, they turn extremely competetive.. I've used the new codex at my gaming store for over 10 games now, and I've lost one. Some of these people were undefeated for months, such as a necron player and Black Templar guy. 1000+ pts, you can slaughter any opponent. I think they are overpowered now, and now that I've beaten the power gamers in my store, there will be 4 Thousand Sons armies springing up soon, all with Ahriman.

 

Sadly, I'm sure they will all be unpainted armies of plastic and pewter. So be it.

 

Let me put it this way, you take away any benefit a plasma gun ever had, a powerfist, and Rending might as well not be there. Sure I failed a few invuls, but 3+/4+ is amazing against any army. Just watch out for low strength weapons. Run in front of a Tactical squad and you will lose at least 2-3 rubrics. Not good. Oh, and a Daemon Prince with warp time and wind of chaos is nasty indeed.

 

-Jason

 

 

Which is why Chaos is not broken now. The game is starting to favour troop heavy armies (the way ive always played) with tactics. God forbid you have to use tactics now and not uber combos (which is why warmachine didnt take to my liking). In 2nd edition it was the super characters that won the game for you. I'm finding now that its tactics and troop count. I play a lot of big games (2000+) and small games (500pt CPs). In 500Pt CPs, my 33 SOB outlast and outshoot any army, weather they bring chimeras, speeders, killer khans. Troops is the mainstay of the game now and with the new codex agaisnt a learned player you'll realize this when he shoots down your expensive troops with lasguns. Thats why DW armies dont make it at my gaming place. Have you ever fought 90 marines at 1500 pts? That to me is broken. I play Tau as my main army (SOB and IG my others), and what got me back into the game was this army. Any veteran tau player knows that to make that army work you have to use that army as a whole, one unit supporting the other. no one unit in that army is broken (the army as a whole in the right hands and right list, maybe. but thats any army). to me that is balance.

 

-stinko

[Night Stalker]

The Apostle was a bit more than that, and he is invalidated in that Demagogue and the Accursed Crosiuz is no more. The only way you can get a 4+ invulnerable save on your lord is to take the MoT.

 

Example: Your terror markings 'do nothing' (except look cool :() now, whereas Daemonic Visage gave a -1 LD penalty to your enemy. (very fluffy for NL)

 

is 4+ inv really needed to make WB dude ? i doubt so

Accursed Crozius rules also were laughtable to start with (chaplains have crosius acranum and rosarius - right, but since post-heresy NOT pre-heresy :D)

 

my terror marking gave a -2LD panalty btw ^^ but i rather choose new cheap crap raptors over old good overpriced ones. they die as fast as ever.

[Brother Nihm]

The Apostle was a bit more than that, and he is invalidated in that Demagogue and the Accursed Crosiuz is no more. The only way you can get a 4+ invulnerable save on your lord is to take the MoT.

 

Example: Your terror markings 'do nothing' (except look cool ;)) now, whereas Daemonic Visage gave a -1 LD penalty to your enemy. (very fluffy for NL)

 

is 4+ inv really needed to make WB dude ? i doubt so

Accursed Crozius rules also were laughtable to start with (chaplains have crosius acranum and rosarius - right, but since post-heresy NOT pre-heresy :D)

 

my terror marking gave a -2LD panalty btw ^^ but i rather choose new cheap crap raptors over old good overpriced ones. they die as fast as ever.

Apostles and Khornate lords+GD's was about the only models with a 4+ invuln, so that is saying something.

 

Very true about the Raptors, the new ones are so much better, but that is beside the point, which is that there are no longer any rules in the codex which support the Undivided Legions' fluff.

And -2LD only came into play if all models had Visage, which was rare in basic CSM squads. ;)

[Neigorath]

Well, I have read the new codex, haven't played games with it yet but that will just have to wait until I get an more official version of it. There are, indeed some things in it that seem strange, like the Icons opposed to Marks, and the fact that you cannot get an MoU on an HQ choice anymore. Also, the sacking of the Retinues and making terminators 3-10 in unit size is annoying as I was going to buy the new plastic terminator box and use them with my 7 existing metal terminators... not possible, unless I divide it into two different units. Also, moving the dread to the elite slot causes some headache as they were my only heavy choices in the last edition along with a very rarely used defiler and a landraider that I never used. My army has always been Black Legion so I can and will adapt, but it is by no means perfect. Also, the loss of chaos lieutenants is annoying, as now you'll need to allocate 5th of your points in an 500 pts game to your hq choice. Also, we have 3 fast attack choices but only two units to use as such... and the raptors cost a wheelbarrow of money... Oh well, waiting for the return of mounted daemonettes.

[Joah from Alberta]

Oblits were T5 not T4(5) under 3.5 Look, it's easy to see diversity and call it out. You see someone say blah blah blah on the extreme and all of a sudden feel a need to justify. I call a spade a spade, the new chaos codex is IMO trash, leaving many fans out in da cold. Tolkien always challenged his children to read greater vocabulary rather than just "streamline". If I had one wish for this game it would be that it was sold to a real publishing house http://games.slashdot.org/games/07/08/19/0112228.shtml (someone who can design with love and consideration rather than shallow fanfare). Yer going to get a lot of people who are supporting the new codex for the reason of "oh, I've never played chaos, now's my chance to build yet another army". Good, if that's your justification than so be it.

[El Magnifico]

Oblits were T5 not T4(5) under 3.5 Look, it's easy to see diversity and call it out. You see someone say blah blah blah on the extreme and all of a sudden feel a need to justify. I call a spade a spade, the new chaos codex is IMO trash, leaving many fans out in da cold. Tolkien always challenged his children to read greater vocabulary rather than just "streamline". If I had one wish for this game it would be that it was sold to a real publishing house http://games.slashdot.org/games/07/08/19/0112228.shtml (someone who can design with love and consideration rather than shallow fanfare). Yer going to get a lot of people who are supporting the new codex for the reason of "oh, I've never played chaos, now's my chance to build yet another army". Good, if that's your justification than so be it.

 

 

there speaks a man who had a beardy chaos list :)

 

 

the new codex allows for just about everything the old one did but doesnt allow game breaking single characters and unbeatable tactics (try facing a daemon bomb army of daemonettes from infiltrating beardified infiltrating chosen who will be charging you in turn 1 with D.Speed. try beating that with tau/guard, that sort of a mopping causes people to stop playing the game)

 

 

im sure you'll find some loopholes in the RAW of the new 'dex soon enough and everyones beardified armies will become a reality again

[Nidhogg_Rider]

I read the codex today, and I can't help but feel that it all seemed a little half hearted in it's design in the sense of both aesthetics and the rules. The rules just seemed to have been based off the 3rd edition codex, but just toned down heavily to let people who can't be bothered reading intricate rules have a much easier time, because of this I feel the whole point of learning how to game with the models is dying, I can remember when I first selected my army, it would be a ragtag bunch of 'oh that looks good' models, then I slowly started interpreting the rules better, realising what worked and what seemed broken, learning from my mistakes, it was all like a learning process that if you didn't want to go through with, why would you bother trying to start the game in the first place? Now anyone can seem to be on an equal level in knowledge and not many people will really need to ask a more experienced player to clarify things or help them, just rummage through the codex and pick what looks good, because now Chaos don't have the intricate, interesting variety of combinations that were available to them in the 3rd edition. As I said before, this all felt like it was only half heartedly designed, it's a feeling you get when you buy a new fancy product, and it for some insane reason lacks a feature probably because the designers couldn't be bothered to implement it in the end. It all seemed so recycled from the last codex and just dropped rules left, right and centre to cater for the less than casual gamers and nothing really outstanding or desirable added to interest the more avid fans.

 

Along with the recycled, rather plain and uninspired rules, the actual book was quite bad in design, using more recycled images to fill in the blanks, and some font sets that seemed to make the codex seem rather Second edition than new and Fourth edition. Although notably it has increased user-friendliness in that the entire army list section is a no-bs with just all the key information you need to know, you still get a sense that they toned it down for the dummies even here. Overall, the only real spark of imagination from the designers was just the fluff and how much of it there was for the army choices, which I found quite liberating on things that I wanted to know about.

 

Though there are a few good points to be made about it, there is still a lot left to be desired from the codex, to the veteran Chaos player it should feel much more boring than before especially when they've seemingly castrated all the legion specific armies, to the new guy it should be easy to get into but one they become veterans of the rules, i'd think they'd also feel there would be something more to be desired. Overall the codex has questioned my faith in GW, as through this codex they seem to be forgetting that the cash they were rolling in before came from us, the dedicated gamers, not the random person that comes in for the one time and buys a box of marines before realising he doesn't have superglue and doesn't really know what he'd do with them anyway. Do I think it's really worth it to buy a heavily contrived and recycled codex that seems specifically tailored for the newcomers. No, not really.

 

Anyway that's my rant over, flame as you wish.

[Lexington]

...but that is beside the point, which is that there are no longer any rules in the codex which support the Undivided Legions' fluff.

Sure there are - the options are there, they're just not specifically stratified to force you into making a Word Bearer/Death Guard/what haves you army. You have to do it yourself.

 

Unfortunately, GW, seemingly, cannot expect players to do anything themselves these days. Really, we did get along just fine in 2nd Edition (and early 3rd!) without being told how to make an Undivided Legion.

[Tsuden]

Ok I heard talk of an online dex, and I'm goin nutz reading all these flames. If someone could pm me the link to the online dex I would be deeply grateful and make many sacrifices in your name.

[ArmouredWing]

...but that is beside the point, which is that there are no longer any rules in the codex which support the Undivided Legions' fluff.

Sure there are - the options are there, they're just not specifically stratified to force you into making a Word Bearer/Death Guard/what haves you army. You have to do it yourself.

 

Unfortunately, GW, seemingly, cannot expect players to do anything themselves these days. Really, we did get along just fine in 2nd Edition (and early 3rd!) without being told how to make an Undivided Legion.

 

You don't quite get it do you Lexington. Do you possess a copy of the previous C:CSM? Yeah? Then check out the individual undivided legions in there. You'll see that there are things there that enabled to make an army roster an individual thing. Extra slots on some things, restrictions on others, legion specific troop choices and also veteran skills to add seasoning to the mix.

Now look at the new dex. What we have now is a series of photos showing how you can field an individual force by, DA DAAAAA, using a different paint scheme. Gosh, now that is an imaginative concept from GW isn't it.

 

Seriously, I had a chat with some mates the other night and showed them the chaos dex. The comment that followed was that Chaos had become considerably more ordered than the loyalist marine chapters and that the new codex actively inhibits the options available to the chaos player. By doing this there is no longer a lure to the dark gods as there is no longer the freedom to express yourself in an army (and these the comments of stalwart loyalists i hasten to add).

There is a statement on the page where it tells you about picking a chaos army that reads something like 'if you want to pick an individual force then chaos is for you', at that point on the page I laughed out loud because, in direct contradiction to the last codex, chaos is now a stagnant and stifled codex. There's more choice to be had using nids, eldar or even DA. This is the fundemental thing that the codex gets wrong. Apart from tourny/PP armies every chaos general liked to field something that had their own signature on it, this will no longer be the case.

 

What GW is doing now is producing codex specifically with the competative player in mind. It's that simple.

 

As a last point I also had to laugh out loud at JJ's statment that we are now looking at a game where the fluff will dictate the rules and not vice versa!?! A ludicrous statement.

[Lord Humongous]

There are, indeed some things in it that seem strange, like the Icons opposed to Marks, and the fact that you cannot get an MoU on an HQ choice anymore.

 

What use would there be? Chaos Lords are fearless, and can have a personal icon. In essence, they come stock with an improved version of MoCU.

DP's are fearless, but can't have an icon. Again, they essentially come stock with MoCU, but can't have an an icon.

Sorcerers are not fearless, and also can't have any icon. Eh, so they don;t ever get a morale boost. I would suppose the fluff justification is that they are not the "front line combatants" some other units are.

 

I do agree that the icon business does seem odd- of all the units in the codex, its sorcerers and DPs (two units with the STRONGEST ties to the warp) that can't summon deamons?

[Sception]

Oblits were T5 not T4(5) under 3.5

 

No. No they weren't. They were originally published at T5, GW considered it a mistake and they were FAQ'd to T4(5) right after the EoT campaign. It was in the FAQ in White Dwarf. It was in the FAQ free to download on the internet. It as in the second print run of the 3.5 Codex, mere months after the first run was printed.

 

It's not my fault if you never even bothered to look at the faq for Chaos. It was kind of necessary, since you couldn't equip your characters without it (the book was not at all clear about what counted towards your 'wargear' limit and what did not), and you didn't know how many hands your kai gun was, or how far your defiler could shoot.

 

 

While it's understandable that you bought the first run of the codex and never looked at anything else, that doesn't change the fact that you were ignorant of their actual rules. You clearly have internet access. The FAQs are there for a reason.

[Lord Humongous]

I can remember when I first selected my army, it would be a ragtag bunch of 'oh that looks good' models, then I slowly started interpreting the rules better, realising what worked and what seemed broken, learning from my mistakes, it was all like a learning process that if you didn't want to go through with, why would you bother trying to start the game in the first place?

 

Ideally you would start the game because you like the models and you like the background fluff and you like the social aspect of playing the game- and the easier the rules make it do that, the better.

People (newbies in particular) SHOULD be free to throw together the assortment of models they like based on appearance and end up with a decent (though probably not ideal) list. They shouldn't buy a model that says "chaos" on the box (likely based on liking its looks) and then find out that it won't work in their army.

 

Now anyone can seem to be on an equal level in knowledge and not many people will really need to ask a more experienced player to clarify things or help them, just rummage through the codex and pick what looks good, because now Chaos don't have the intricate, interesting variety of combinations that were available to them in the 3rd edition.

 

I actually feel this is a good thing. If I wanted to have to figure out a bunch of "trick combos", I'd play Magic the Gathering! I especially loathe having to adapt my army list to make counters to other people's trick combos- combos that likely come out of a codex I don't own and have never read. So if the new Chaos Codex lacks such combos- good ridence, I say.

 

Having simpler rules and less restrictions shifts the focus back onto how the models look, and how you play the game, and away from what specific bits of war gear you choose. I'd rather my army be hard to beat because of how it is played, than the fact that it has codex selections that can't be countered except by a very few lists.

 

And yes, the old rules WERE fabulous inspiration for some complex modeling conversions. If there is anything I am sad to see go, it is that one single thing. However, people did those conversions before the 3ed codex came out. They do them for races that have simpler codexes than chaos. I think those players who have creativity will continue to do them, only now with LESS limitation on what the model needs / is allowed to look like.

 

What I'd really like to see is basic game rule that support complex tactics.

Keep the army lists simple, and make the GAME deep.

^^I think that is gonna be my new signature.

[Neigorath]

Lord Humongous: Yeah, I keep forgetting that DP's and Lords are now fearless. My brain seems to be wired to 3.5 still.

[AngelPride]

Lex man show some flexability

Your total lack of tolloerance for any debait on the codex and what it might lack or leave out is rather annoying at this point. Can you not have an open mind and accept that some (but not all) of what people are saying about the legion specific rules (or rather lack there of) has some merit?

 

It is not at all that people dont have imagination when making their list to represent a specific legion. Far from it they have a great deal of imagination. The porblem is that they want a rule or two, and maybe a specific unique unit entry to give them that "this is X Legion" feel.

It would be like GW removing the option for a Dark Angels Deathwing player to field deathwing as troops. That would just not be right. Sure you could still do "deathwing" but no matter how much you worked the list it still wouldnt be the same. Are we all tracking here?

 

Specific relevant examples:

Alpha legion: A rule for infiltrate for chaos marines and chosen marines, and a unit entry for cultists

Word Bearers: Rule for giving a chaos lord a Demon Crozius (special weapon) and maybe a rule that would entice them to buy 1-2 units of lesser demons

Night lords: Night vision and an option to take raptors as elites and fast attack choices

Iron Warriors: Option for chaos lord to have a servo arm and bionics, and a entry for 0-1 basalisk

 

Vwala grand total maybe 2 pages with fluff and explinations. Not hard. This is reallly all people are asking for. More options (even a few) allow players to give a certain flavor to thier armies that otherwise would not be avalable. Its like taking a rack of spices out of a chefs kitchen, you just cant get the same taiste without them, no matter how creative you are.

[Lord Humongous]

Specific relevant examples:

Alpha legion: A rule for infiltrate for chaos marines and chosen marines, and a unit entry for cultists

Word Bearers: Rule for giving a chaos lord a Demon Crozius (special weapon) and maybe a rule that would entice them to buy 1-2 units of lesser demons

Night lords: Night vision and an option to take raptors as elites and fast attack choices

Iron Warriors: Option for chaos lord to have a servo arm and bionics, and a entry for 0-1 basalisk

 

Vwala grand total maybe 2 pages with fluff and explinations. Not hard. This is reallly all people are asking for. More options (even a few) allow players to give a certain flavor to thier armies that otherwise would not be avalable. Its like taking a rack of spices out of a chefs kitchen, you just cant get the same taiste without them, no matter how creative you are.

 

And in each case, you've repeated the mistake made with Space Marine traits and also in the old chaos lists. Ech of your "legion rules" above adds new powers and options to the base list, with zero drawback to compensate. At the very least, you would need to say no to icons other than Chaos Glory for ALL those lists, and even that is a pretty minor drawback.

 

Anyhow, who's to say such modifications won't appear down the road? As you say, they would be very simple, short rules. That makes them very easy to publish online, in White Dwarf, or in a scenario expansion book. Or hell, make them as house rules. Chances are the differences would be so minor that you could use the same minatures in a tournament with nearly the same effect. (Yes, even Alpha Legion cultists; they could "count as" Kroot mercs.)

[Astaroth]

Anyone that thinks that the previous codex was balanced needs to share what they are smoking. I have 2 thoughts for you: Iron Warriors and Khorne. Lets see, Demon Prince with stature and dreadaxe, 9 oblits, 5 man plas/las squads, and 4 heavy support...that should be enough to beat a new player so hard they don't want to play the game anymore. Oh, you still have some fight in you, let me get my other army. Tooled up demon prince that can survive 2000 points of tau shooting without taking a wound (i have done it), bloodletters for troops, and 18 khorne bikers...oh, and 3 defilers to punch holes in your army. Still wanna play 40k lil jimmy? I didn't think so, have fun with heroclix.

I love chaos, but I got so bored with the unbalanced power of the last book that I converted to the Church of Russ, maybe I will look at chaos again with this one. I like the changes that they are making. It allows people to build armies that are inline with the storyline (which they are finally fleshing out). Individuality comes down to painting and writing a good story, not using it as an excuse to abuse an army list.

 

This is one of the main reasons that the old codex was over-powered. The real problem was that against many of these IW/WE (or any other cheese list) armies the dice roll for first turn usually defined the outcome of the game. If, say, IW won the roll, you'd be looking at massive casualties from heavy weapons before you can blink, and WE would have already moved halfway across the game board. This way, it forces people to realize that if the outcome of a game rests on a dice roll, then they should go play DnD and leave WH40k alone, or adapt to the changes and play the game like it's meant to be played.

[Penmarch']

You don't quite get it do you Lexington. Do you possess a copy of the previous C:CSM? Yeah? Then check out the individual undivided legions in there. You'll see that there are things there that enabled to make an army roster an individual thing. Extra slots on some things, restrictions on others, legion specific troop choices and also veteran skills to add seasoning to the mix.

Now look at the new dex. What we have now is a series of photos showing how you can field an individual force by, DA DAAAAA, using a different paint scheme. Gosh, now that is an imaginative concept from GW isn't it.

 

Seriously, I had a chat with some mates the other night and showed them the chaos dex. The comment that followed was that Chaos had become considerably more ordered than the loyalist marine chapters and that the new codex actively inhibits the options available to the chaos player. By doing this there is no longer a lure to the dark gods as there is no longer the freedom to express yourself in an army (and these the comments of stalwart loyalists i hasten to add).

There is a statement on the page where it tells you about picking a chaos army that reads something like 'if you want to pick an individual force then chaos is for you', at that point on the page I laughed out loud because, in direct contradiction to the last codex, chaos is now a stagnant and stifled codex. There's more choice to be had using nids, eldar or even DA. This is the fundemental thing that the codex gets wrong. Apart from tourny/PP armies every chaos general liked to field something that had their own signature on it, this will no longer be the case.

 

What GW is doing now is producing codex specifically with the competative player in mind. It's that simple.

 

As a last point I also had to laugh out loud at JJ's statment that we are now looking at a game where the fluff will dictate the rules and not vice versa!?! A ludicrous statement.

 

Absolutely true Armoured Wing, and so well said that I can't add anything to it.

All of our clubmembers, -Chaos Players only of course- that have or have read the codex said something similar.

Lack of choice will make this codex a non- starter. On the other hand almost all were quite happy with the new figures but many won't buy them because of the extremely poor support in the codex.