The newest Chaos codex

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Decided on which enemy unit that you want destroyed.

Lash twice and move them (18" is easily doable)

For added hurt, move them through difficult terrain.

Carefully place his models.

Use LOS to isolate critical units (Powerfist wielders, Librarians etc.)

Kill the model before they can strike back (initiative 6)

 

Sit back and listen to the cries of cheese from your opponent. :)

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

Where does it say that you can reposition his models?

 

If he has his lascannon trooper at the back of the squad it will always be at the back of the squad, you can only change the squad's position. If he keeps his powerfist guy in the second rank of the unit you will not be able to isolate him.

 

It's no wonder you're having problems, reading desired outcomes into the rules like that.

 

Granted, lash of submission does have the ability to alter game outcomes, and it should only have had an 18 or 12 inch range.

[AkiraCho]

yeah.. or maybe a leadership value counter would have been nice.

[redbeard]

Where does it say that you can reposition his models?

 

If he has his lascannon trooper at the back of the squad it will always be at the back of the squad, you can only change the squad's position. If he keeps his powerfist guy in the second rank of the unit you will not be able to isolate him.

 

It's no wonder you're having problems, reading desired outcomes into the rules like that.

 

Granted, lash of submission does have the ability to alter game outcomes, and it should only have had an 18 or 12 inch range.

 

So you're saying that people should put their guys on a movement tray of some sort, and we can just move the movement tray? Of course not.

 

It clearly says that the unit is moved by the chaos player. How the chaos player sees fit to move the unit those 2d6 inches is up to them. If one guy moves their distance backwards while another moves forward, and as a result they have changed positions, that's how it goes. It also doesn't state that the chaos player has to move them in any single direction, just move them.

 

This is the one part of this power that probably needs to have some clarification, however, the way it is written now, moving a unit in 40k has always been about moving one model at a time. I see no reason why that would change with this power.

[Penmarch']

Where does it say that you can reposition his models?

 

If he has his lascannon trooper at the back of the squad it will always be at the back of the squad, you can only change the squad's position. If he keeps his powerfist guy in the second rank of the unit you will not be able to isolate him.

 

It's no wonder you're having problems, reading desired outcomes into the rules like that.

 

Granted, lash of submission does have the ability to alter game outcomes, and it should only have had an 18 or 12 inch range.

 

So you're saying that people should put their guys on a movement tray of some sort, and we can just move the movement tray? Of course not.

 

It clearly says that the unit is moved by the chaos player. How the chaos player sees fit to move the unit those 2d6 inches is up to them. If one guy moves their distance backwards while another moves forward, and as a result they have changed positions, that's how it goes. It also doesn't state that the chaos player has to move them in any single direction, just move them.

 

This is the one part of this power that probably needs to have some clarification, however, the way it is written now, moving a unit in 40k has always been about moving one model at a time. I see no reason why that would change with this power.

 

 

Indeed. Redbeard is absolutely right.

The text is the codex is as follows.

'A psyker may use his psyichic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. Pick any non- vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24" and the take a psychic test in order to use the power.

If the test is succesful, the target is moved 2d6 by the Chaos player. The move is not slowed by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal. Victims may not be moved off the table, into impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models. After this the affected unit must take a pinning text.'

 

If you move any unit in WH40K it is always done 1 model at time. Piling in and consolidation moves are also about moving single figures.

So you can reposition his unit any way you want as long as none of the models have moved more than the 2d6 you got. There's a debate going on about keeping unit coherency, but since the text clearly states the UNIT as a TARGET I suppose unit coherency rules still aply. Otherwise you could scatter his unit to the four wind and effectively take it out of the game.

 

However in the next to last paragraph the TARGET is called VICTIMS (Plural) that may not be moved off the table- or more importantly nearer than 1" from an enemy unit. You could only do so with individual figures not an already structured unit. No doubt about it. You may re-position the enemy's individual figures as you wish as long as no single figures 'travels' more than the 2d6 score.

[RogueSangre]

[You may re-position the enemy's individual figures as you wish as long as no single figures 'travels' more than the 2d6 score.

 

or less then the 2d6 score.

[AkiraCho]

or a leadership based counter....

[Lord Humongous]

IMO, they should have made the distance 3d6- BUT, after the chaos player gets done moving the models, the unit gets a d6 consolidation move, made by the owning player. Would eliminate all this nonsense over positioning of individual models, AND it would give a wider array of possible results, for more "Chaos". The chaos player might roll 18, and the target player 1. Or the Chaos player could roll 3, and the target player 6.

 

I think I will offer this alternative to people I play with. I bet they take it.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Where does it say that you can reposition his models?

 

If he has his lascannon trooper at the back of the squad it will always be at the back of the squad, you can only change the squad's position. If he keeps his powerfist guy in the second rank of the unit you will not be able to isolate him.

 

It's no wonder you're having problems, reading desired outcomes into the rules like that.

 

Granted, lash of submission does have the ability to alter game outcomes, and it should only have had an 18 or 12 inch range.

 

So you're saying that people should put their guys on a movement tray of some sort, and we can just move the movement tray? Of course not.

 

It clearly says that the unit is moved by the chaos player. How the chaos player sees fit to move the unit those 2d6 inches is up to them. If one guy moves their distance backwards while another moves forward, and as a result they have changed positions, that's how it goes. It also doesn't state that the chaos player has to move them in any single direction, just move them.

 

This is the one part of this power that probably needs to have some clarification, however, the way it is written now, moving a unit in 40k has always been about moving one model at a time. I see no reason why that would change with this power.

 

Given that moving units in the games we play is a case of taking a tape measure and moving them that distance in that direction it is very easy to keep the same formation. It also says that they move 2D6, not up to 2D6 so every model has to be moved the same distance while maintaining unit coherancy. That pretty much kills your interpretation because it would be difficult to move each model in a unit exactly the same distance and change their positioning significantly.

 

Still I see your point. I should have known that an army list with Gav "Dwarves and Blood Angels" Thorpe on the cover would have problems like this.

[BrianBlessed]

I can't believe that the only new character we have is that goon Huron. It would have been nice if there were more. All those wordbearer players out there and not one named character for them. What a joke.

[Lord Humongous]

It also says that they move 2D6, not up to 2D6 so every model has to be moved the same distance while maintaining unit coherancy. That pretty much kills your interpretation because it would be difficult to move each model in a unit exactly the same distance and change their positioning significantly.

 

Ur- it would?

 

How about this?

 

(starting with) A B C D E F

(moves x inches forward, some diagonally left to right, some straight, some diagonally right to left, resulting in)

(ending with) F E D C B A (like with C and D a bit out front, and maybe with all but A out of LOS to a well postitioned obliterator unit due to intervenening terrian)

 

Or how about this:

A B C D E F

(moves forward towards a central point, giving)

as heck

BE

CD

(much more vulnerable to blasts, and nicely within range of a vindicator...)

[AkiraCho]

I can't believe that the only new character we have is that goon Huron. It would have been nice if there were more. All those wordbearer players out there and not one named character for them. What a joke.

 

dont be so blue brian, alot of armies dont have a parade of heros, iron warriors, alpha, night lords, yadda yadda

the game isnt about special characters anyway, just make your own heros, you dont need special rules to be a hero.

[ancient god]

AkiraCho, I took the liberty of quoting you in my signature. That bit is great. :)

[redbeard]

Given that moving units in the games we play is a case of taking a tape measure and moving them that distance in that direction it is very easy to keep the same formation. It also says that they move 2D6, not up to 2D6 so every model has to be moved the same distance while maintaining unit coherancy. That pretty much kills your interpretation because it would be difficult to move each model in a unit exactly the same distance and change their positioning significantly.

 

It does say that they must be moved 2d6 inches, not up to 2d6, you are correct. It does not, however, state that this movement has to be in a straight line, or that it cannot double-back on itself.

 

There's precedence here. Some rules in the game do explicitly state that doubling-back is not allowed (notably, 'skimmers moving fast' and 'turbo-boosters'). This power doesn't say the models must end this extra movement 2d6" away from where they started, simply that they have that many inches to move.

 

As a result, if I lash your unit, I can pretty easily move one model 6 inches forward and 1 inch backwards, while moving another 5 inches forwards and 2 inches back. That's a simple example of how you can fulfill the entire 26d inches of movement while moving individual models in the unit less total distance than others.

[BrianBlessed]

I can't believe that the only new character we have is that goon Huron. It would have been nice if there were more. All those wordbearer players out there and not one named character for them. What a joke.

 

dont be so blue brian, alot of armies dont have a parade of heros, iron warriors, alpha, night lords, yadda yadda

the game isnt about special characters anyway, just make your own heros, you dont need special rules to be a hero.

 

Yeh I suppose your right. It is a shame that not only are daemons going to be generic so will characters. I might just model a Dark Apostle in Terminator armour and pretend he's abbadon, in actual fact thats exactly what I'm going to do. Talon of horus=lorgar's proxy talon, Daemon Sword Drach'nyen=Dark Acrozius, problem solved.

[Chaos_Minds]

I'm divided by what I think of the new codex. I've heard so much good that a friend of mine, who swore he would never play chaos, is temped to start an army. I've also heard so much bad that I want to just go back to marines. *Sigh* I'll have to wait 'til september and see what the codex really is like and hold my anger untill then.

[AkiraCho]

in all honesty its not a bad codex per se, just they took away the individualism. such as legions and all marked units being the same

[hivetrygon]

I feel the problem in the new dex is that it has become more of a space marine with spikes dex. It is a good dex, not great but ok. I also agree the fun part of chaos is the complexity of it. Chaos is just that, CHAOS. Trying to make it simple and regimented is the oposite of what chaos is. They should have named it evil, or renagde traitor space marines. Left out the daemons, and daemon princes and honestly it would have worked. What I don't understand is the ability to make a Codex Daemons? How are they going to fill a dex with that unless they make it for 40K and fantasy, or it's tiny like the old blood angels book.

 

All in all it is flexable and there are things to customize it. I like obliterators and defilers but most of the other stuff is very similar to space marines. I think some of the charecter has been lost but I guess it takes some getting used to. I definately am not as fond of chaos now as I was. They were my favorite army just because I could come up with some insane things but now, I'll stick to my Necrons. To be honest the Necron dex has more charecter than the chaos dex does, and that's ashame.

 

I did however read the part about Gav wanting to do legion specific dexes. If we got these I'd be fine with it, but do not understand why something as complex as chaos can't have a 300+ page dex. I'd buy it for $40-50 if it was that big. :teehee:

[Brother Scythe]

I agree and I disagree. I mean the codex itself is VERY solid. It is well written(With a few exceptions like always)and is actually very nice.

 

However it is VERY different from what we are all use to and I think that is many of our problems. I mean Cult armies have lost the ability to field themselves as pure forces. Instead they rely on regular squads with Icons and a few elite troop choices. While this is enough to still make a solid fluffy army it isn't what cult players want. Likewise the idea that Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Night Lords are all EXACTLY the same rulewise(Still different fluffwise) is something most of us Legion players don't like. It is life and we will deal. The book still alows good forces but they just have a very different feel than our old lists.

 

Just my overall thoughts.

[Lexington]

I feel the problem in the new dex is that it has become more of a space marine with spikes dex. It is a good dex, not great but ok. I also agree the fun part of chaos is the complexity of it. Chaos is just that, CHAOS. Trying to make it simple and regimented is the oposite of what chaos is.

Buh?

 

How, fundamentally, is the current Codex any different from the previous iterations of the book since 2nd Edition? Traitor Marines. Daemons. Unless I've been on an ether binge for the last decade or so (unlikely, but entirely possible), these are the things that have always made up the Chaos Space Marine army.

[BrotherHostower]

I think people are missing the fact that, Chaos marines are Spikey Marines. That's right, they are Space Marines, but evil, with a few different gadgets/abilities. AND they even get to still have those in the new codex. They're still chaos marines as they've always been. You can still field an entirely cult list, you just have to take the appropriate special character to do it (just like Dark Angels have to now! *gasp, shock, horror*). The effectiveness of this type of army can be argued 6 ways to sunday (the DA forums STILL argue for and against the effectiveness of Ravenwing/Deathwing pure lists).

 

Aside from the obligatory arguement that they're spikey marines, they DO have different units and options and fluff between the two armies and army lists.

 

Unit-wise

 

CSM: Cult Marines w/cult options

Daemon Prince

Possessed

Daemons (of any and all types)

Defiler

Obliterators

 

SM: Chaplain

Scouts

Whirlwind

Land Speeder

Drop Pod

 

Options-wise:

CSM: 4 Different marks that can be given to any unit

Reaper Autocannon

Combi-weapons

Havok-Launcher

Daemon Weapons

 

SM: Sniper Rifle

Assault Cannon

Plasma Cannon

Hunterkiller missle

Stormbolter

Iron Halo

 

Even units they share have differences.

 

CSM get Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CCW, while RSM only get Bolter & Bolt Pistol

 

Havoks can take 4 special weapons, Devestators can only take 4 heavy weapons

 

CSM Chosen get 1 less attack on profile, but access to 1 more special/power weapon and can infiltrate

 

CSM Terminators can have more attacks, different weapons, and different squad sizes, RSM are stuck to 5 w/1 heavy weapon.

Varying degrees of pysker powers amongst the 2 psyker-types in the lists

 

As for how can they make Codex Daemons? How many unit entries are in any given Codex? Now, C: Daemons has, in and of itself, at MINIMUM, 12 specific daemon types (4 hq, 4 troop, 4 fast attack), not counting Furies and Nurglings if they bring those back. C: DA didn't have too many more than that. They could easily create 4 elite and heavy types to go with it.

[AkiraCho]

basically they made us codex space marines with a few differant bells and whistles, why dont they just make us a differant marine chapter with differant options, we are pretty much like space wolves or blood angels now, just a few minor changes.

[Ba'althamor]

I feel the problem in the new dex is that it has become more of a space marine with spikes dex. It is a good dex, not great but ok. I also agree the fun part of chaos is the complexity of it. Chaos is just that, CHAOS. Trying to make it simple and regimented is the oposite of what chaos is.

 

Buh?

 

How, fundamentally, is the current Codex any different from the previous iterations of the book since 2nd Edition? Traitor Marines. Daemons. Unless I've been on an ether binge for the last decade or so (unlikely, but entirely possible), these are the things that have always made up the Chaos Space Marine army.

 

What he said.

 

If anything, this iteration of the Codex is closer to the second edition version, when you didn't need no fancy-shmancy special rules to play a particular Legion, when Chaos Undivided really was Undivided and didn't throw you out if you happened to be feeling a little more Tzeentchian than was the norm. The previous Codex, while it did have that huge range of upgrades and Daemonic Gifts and other fun bits, was a remarkably regimented tome when it came to the actual units you could include. Wanted a Night Lords army with Khorne Berzerker patsies cannon fodder allies like they had in the second edition flavour text, or an Iron Warriors force allied with the legions of Nurgle? Wanted a Thousand Sons Sorcerer to lurk around in your warband, again as was the case in the second edition? Tough. You can't have them, because apparently Chaos Space Marines are just as rigid and stratified as the Imperial mob - and if you go ahead and paint your figures however you like, be prepared for confusion and drama to abound as your opponents wallow in helpless confusion, trying to figure out what Word Bearers and Plague Marines are doing on the same table.

 

That said, I can see where the "they're just a Space Marine army with spikes on" feeling comes from. I'll particularly miss the Veteran Skills, and the unit abilities like Hit and Run and Skilled Rider. It was quite nice to have the option of having my millennia-old Space Marines do things slightly better than the Johnny-come-latelies in the Imperial armies, and even better to be able to have converted mutations that actually had some game effect. That's sad. I can see why GW have done it and I'll keep converting mutated troopers even though my Gifts are gone, but the flexibility of the new Codex is a case of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. I may be able to field Noise Marines now without some moron across the table gibbering about WYSIWIG, but my Noise Marines are exactly the same as everyone else's Noise Marines, and I do agree that's a bit sad.

 

Still, the complexity and multiplicity of Chaos isn't just about rules. You could have the shiniest, most flexible rules set in the world, but if your models are just boring off-the-peg Chaos Marines then they're going to look like Space Marines with spikes on 'cause that's all they are. Just because your army's simple and regimented on paper doesn't mean it has to be in the flesh/iron/dripping daemonic ichor/plastic and metal... and then it'll look great and be quicker and simpler to play, and who's losing out there?

[Night Stalker]

basically they made us codex space marines with a few differant bells and whistles, why dont they just make us a differant marine chapter with differant options, we are pretty much like space wolves or blood angels now, just a few minor changes.

 

we always have just few different thing :)

[Lucrosium Malice]

I will say this about the codex.

 

I like it and I hate it. To me it feels as if they are "dumbing" down the game to make it easier for kids to play, but at the same time they are making it so the old RAW rules lawyers can't bring up the old "terminator armor, and like" rules problems.

 

I have been playing Chaos since 2nd Edition. I actually started with 2nd edition. Have always been an Iron warriors player as well. So I am a little upset at the loss of my Basilisk. I now have a useless model. The fact that I, as well as all chaos marines, can have 3 Vindicators is moot. The loss of my 4th HS sucks, but I rarely used that rule so Im okay with it.

 

What does bother me is going to be the "trick pony" armies using Lash spell power (which I see as the only real broken ability in the dex). The 5 Plasma gun wielding Chosen units, and the new Rhino Rush army of Tzeentch warriors screaming towards your lines to unload rapid firing AP3 death on everyone. This is why I stay out of tournaments, I HATE that must win mentality.

 

The put the chaos back into the dreadnoughts, which I like, but I won't field. The only dreads I imagine you will see on the table now are going to be dual close combat weapon dreads. Bolt guns shooting my troops I can tolerate, not lascannons and heavy bolters.

 

I like the defiler now as well. I imagine they will be the new dreadnought. Removing both the reaper and heavy flamer for two close combat arms makes this a very solid choice and fun to convert up.

 

The obliterators are fine. I like the energy weapon instead of slugs anyway. The plasma cannons worked very nicely against eldar this weekend.

 

The loss of retinues kind of sucks, but I can live without it.

 

I doubt you will see plasma pistols ever again. Why take em for troops when you can replace a bolter for a plasma gun for the same points. The gun is way better.

 

I know that a greater demon (my demon prince model will fit that roll) is a great addition to any army as a solid choice that can wreak some damage and is great at its point cost.