The newest Chaos codex

[BrainFireBob]

Ok, i haven't been on the board in a while, and was just curious as to other peoples opinon. Now, as for myself, after reading the brand new chaos codex, i felt as though someone went and dusted off my old 3rd ed. codex, took out all the legion specific stuff and put it up for sale. i like chaos, and tried to keep an open mind. but no matter how hard i try not to, i keep seeing an inferior book. is this just me?

 

Y'know, if you'd glanced down even the first page, you'd find at least three other threads devoted to this topic. You didn't even need to use the search function.

[The Defiler]

If you guys have to complain, at least make an argument that isn't just "I want to still be cheesey". I mean, really, the new 'dex is really fluffy

 

As I said, this codex is at least as cheesy as the previous one (and maybe more, due to some insane rules, as the Lash of Submission).. Just some new combos to find and learn, and power gamers will be happy.

But I'm no power gamer.. I don't care about TEH über combo of death.

And most people complaining here and there feel the same..

 

About the 'fluff-iness' of it.. as I said above, it's half good/half bad... The Codex is not really dealing with what it's supposed to... all renegades are not warbands which splitted from the traitor legions, some of them just choose the path of chaos yesterday, and still should have their own loyalist equipment (but that's not what the wargear section suggests though)... But I recognize (the half good part) that including some fluff from the Horus Heresy novels is cool..

 

:) TheDef'

[Lexington]

i am however in favour of balancing the army, though why that meant killing off individuality i dont know...

Can't see how this kills off individuality. Really, if anything, it makes room for far more individuality. Unfortunately for GW, their new design ideas put the responsibility for creating unique armies in the hands of its players, who seemingly can't do anything without Papa GW holding their hand.

 

Seriously, this isn't hard, guys. Want to play Word Bearers? Paint your army red with silver trim, and make up some Chaplain-style Lords. Heck, take lots of Daemons if you must acknowledge that frakkin' silly idea of the Children of Lorgar as the Daemon Legion. There. You're set.

 

Want to take Iron Warriors? You've got Vindicators. You've got Havocs. You've got (unrestricted!) Obliterators. Go wild, kids!

 

If you need instructions on how to properly work out a World Eaters list, then you are beyond my help.

 

No, the problem people are having isn't a lack of individuality, it's a lack of specific, unmistakable directions on how to stratify a single army list in order to get game-based advantages. Lord knows that we can't be expected to restrict our army choices without specific incentives to do so. We need our armies to be special, GW! I can't be expected to make the army I want to make if it's not going to make me win more! You mean I have to compete with other players without my beloved, boring, easily-exploited crutch? God, the inhumanity of it all. I didn't get into wargames to make tactical decisions. I got into them to win, dammit!

 

When I say that the genericizing of 40K will be its savior, I don't mean that it'll reverse the plummeting GW sales figures. What I mean is that it will root out the unimaginative, the power-grabby and the infantile, and maybe leave me with a player base worth playing against.

[Belger31]

Can't see how this kills off individuality. Really, if anything, it makes room for far more individuality. Unfortunately for GW, their new design ideas put the responsibility for creating unique armies in the hands of its players, who seemingly can't do anything without Papa GW holding their hand.

 

Seriously, this isn't hard, guys. Want to play Word Bearers? Paint your army red with silver trim, and make up some Chaplain-style Lords. Heck, take lots of Daemons if you must acknowledge that frakkin' silly idea of the Children of Lorgar as the Daemon Legion. There. You're set.

 

Want to take Iron Warriors? You've got Vindicators. You've got Havocs. You've got (unrestricted!) Obliterators. Go wild, kids!

 

If you need instructions on how to properly work out a World Eaters list, then you are beyond my help.

 

No, the problem people are having isn't a lack of individuality, it's a lack of specific, unmistakable directions on how to stratify a single army list in order to get game-based advantages. Lord knows that we can't be expected to restrict our army choices without specific incentives to do so. We need our armies to be special, GW! I can't be expected to make the army I want to make if it's not going to make me win more! You mean I have to compete with other players without my beloved, boring, easily-exploited crutch? God, the inhumanity of it all. I didn't get into wargames to make tactical decisions. I got into them to win, dammit!

 

When I say that the genericizing of 40K will be its savior, I don't mean that it'll reverse the plummeting GW sales figures. What I mean is that it will root out the unimaginative, the power-grabby and the infantile, and maybe leave me with a player base worth playing against.

 

Well done. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[BrainFireBob]

Except Traits are quite patently disappearing.

 

And SM players are told all the time that they don't need all the codices they have. And most of us agree with that assessment- SMs have them because it's tradition. The only one that's really different is the Wolves.

[Belger31]

Wow, I think that's the single most insulting post I've ever read on the B&C. You know what? Stick it. Just stick it.

 

Telling Chaos players that they're whining because they miss their cheese? Stick it. That's like telling SM players that they don't need Codices: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc, etc, because Codex: Space Marines is good enough. Want Templars, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels? Just take more assault squads! Want Dark Angels? Just take some plasma guns and plasma cannons in your devastator squads! It's all the same, you can do it if you're smart enough!

 

And the new Chaos codex doesn't even have traits to work out individual Legions/Chapters/etc.

 

Seriously, man. Stick it.

 

Are you saying you want individual codices for every legion (Like space marine chapters)? Because if that's not your arguement, then this doesn't make sense. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. may look like Space Marines, but they are not. They are now totally unrelated army lists. That separation has been made clear now with the explicit publication of independent codices of Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I'm sure you're aware that the next printing of Codex:Space Marines will follow the template of Codex:Dark Angels, Codex:Chaos Marines, etc. Then what will you base your arguement upon? Chaos just happened to get revised first.

[Gree]

i am however in favour of balancing the army, though why that meant killing off individuality i dont know...

Can't see how this kills off individuality. Really, if anything, it makes room for far more individuality. Unfortunately for GW, their new design ideas put the responsibility for creating unique armies in the hands of its players, who seemingly can't do anything without Papa GW holding their hand.

 

Seriously, this isn't hard, guys. Want to play Word Bearers? Paint your army red with silver trim, and make up some Chaplain-style Lords. Heck, take lots of Daemons if you must acknowledge that frakkin' silly idea of the Children of Lorgar as the Daemon Legion. There. You're set.

 

Want to take Iron Warriors? You've got Vindicators. You've got Havocs. You've got (unrestricted!) Obliterators. Go wild, kids!

 

If you need instructions on how to properly work out a World Eaters list, then you are beyond my help.

 

No, the problem people are having isn't a lack of individuality, it's a lack of specific, unmistakable directions on how to stratify a single army list in order to get game-based advantages. Lord knows that we can't be expected to restrict our army choices without specific incentives to do so. We need our armies to be special, GW! I can't be expected to make the army I want to make if it's not going to make me win more! You mean I have to compete with other players without my beloved, boring, easily-exploited crutch? God, the inhumanity of it all. I didn't get into wargames to make tactical decisions. I got into them to win, dammit!

 

When I say that the genericizing of 40K will be its savior, I don't mean that it'll reverse the plummeting GW sales figures. What I mean is that it will root out the unimaginative, the power-grabby and the infantile, and maybe leave me with a player base worth playing against.

 

Okay fine. How can I play my Doon Siren lord or Noise Marine Termies? Do I just do them as counts as? What about my Noise Marine bikers and Noise Marine Havocs? If I go to a tournament with these models I will be kicked out. The entire army list from the last codex is compeltely illegal now, half the army does not have any kind of equivilant in the new codex.

 

Also where do I put my Alpha Legion cultists in the new list?

 

Wow, I think that's the single most insulting post I've ever read on the B&C. You know what? Stick it. Just stick it.

 

Telling Chaos players that they're whining because they miss their cheese? Stick it. That's like telling SM players that they don't need Codices: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc, etc, because Codex: Space Marines is good enough. Want Templars, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels? Just take more assault squads! Want Dark Angels? Just take some plasma guns and plasma cannons in your devastator squads! It's all the same, you can do it if you're smart enough!

 

And the new Chaos codex doesn't even have traits to work out individual Legions/Chapters/etc.

 

Seriously, man. Stick it.

 

Are you saying you want individual codices for every legion (Like space marine chapters)? Because if that's not your arguement, then this doesn't make sense. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. may look like Space Marines, but they are not. They are now totally unrelated army lists. That separation has been made clear now with the explicit publication of independent codices of Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I'm sure you're aware that the next printing of Codex:Space Marines will follow the template of Codex:Dark Angels, Codex:Chaos Marines, etc. Then what will you base your arguement upon? Chaos just happened to get revised first.

 

It's called using a comparison. He knows that. Besides despite wearing power armor having geneseed and weilding boltguns they are not space marines?

 

Besides you really where insulting. Flaming and flame-baiting are against the rules.

[Maeklos]

Are you saying you want individual codices for every legion (Like space marine chapters)? Because if that's not your arguement, then this doesn't make sense. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. may look like Space Marines, but they are not. They are now totally unrelated army lists. That separation has been made clear now with the explicit publication of independent codices of Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I'm sure you're aware that the next printing of Codex:Space Marines will follow the template of Codex:Dark Angels, Codex:Chaos Marines, etc. Then what will you base your arguement upon? Chaos just happened to get revised first.

 

Chaos has always gotten the short shrift - it NEEDS more than one Codex, and NOT a Renegade/Daemon split. Renegades are fine, but as has been pointed out, the current codex does NOT cover Renegades. Renegades would still have Imperial technology, Scouts, Chaplains, etc. All GW did was roll out the old 3rd edition rulebook with a different name and some different fluff. What we NEED is a codex like the old one that covers generic non-aligned and Undivided forces (Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Black Legion, and renegades), and we could get by with a second codex covering the god-specific Legions and cults (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons). Add in some actual differences to the various armies, not just "same army, different color" that this new codex is.

[Black and White]

Wow, I think that's the single most insulting post I've ever read on the B&C. You know what? Stick it. Just stick it.

 

Telling Chaos players that they're whining because they miss their cheese? Stick it. That's like telling SM players that they don't need Codices: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc, etc, because Codex: Space Marines is good enough. Want Templars, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels? Just take more assault squads! Want Dark Angels? Just take some plasma guns and plasma cannons in your devastator squads! It's all the same, you can do it if you're smart enough!

 

And the new Chaos codex doesn't even have traits to work out individual Legions/Chapters/etc.

 

Seriously, man. Stick it.

 

Are you saying you want individual codices for every legion (Like space marine chapters)? Because if that's not your arguement, then this doesn't make sense. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. may look like Space Marines, but they are not. They are now totally unrelated army lists. That separation has been made clear now with the explicit publication of independent codices of Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I'm sure you're aware that the next printing of Codex:Space Marines will follow the template of Codex:Dark Angels, Codex:Chaos Marines, etc. Then what will you base your arguement upon? Chaos just happened to get revised first.

 

If you're making this post you must have completely missed the point of what he was trying to say. A codex for each legion isn't mandatory, but a codex for the CULT legions, and a codex for the UNDIVIDED legions AT LEAST should be printed. The LEGIONS should be AT LEAST different enough from the freaking RED CORSAIRS to get a new codex, because the orginization of say black templars vs space marines isn't even that different!!! It might be an independent codex, but look at how many list entries are EXACTLY The same! The BT aren't even first founding ect...

 

As far as power gamers go, that post WAS really insulting. Please, go play death guard or thousand sons, right up the cheesiest list you can think of, then see how well you do at a tournament. Please. They aren't 'one crutch' win armies. Bloody ignorants.

[pyroguy]

Parhaps instead of argueing with each other, if you have lovingly converted an army that has been totally screwed over by the new codex, you can do two things.

 

1. Enjoy the fact the new models exist, maybe use them, and just stick to the old codex. Of course, this only works for social gaming, which leads me to suggest...

 

2. Everyone who feels this way, start up a thread to get developing a letter or e-mail to someone important. E-mail white dwarf, whatever, but instead of telling us how much you hate the new codex, tell someone who can change things. Im sure that many people are suffering due to the new codex, so why not try and do somthing. If your really lucky they could put somthing on the website, or even white dwarf. Im not sayinbg it will definately do anything, but do somthing useful with your ideas.

[Excarnificator]

Chaos has always gotten the short shrift - it NEEDS more than one Codex, and NOT a Renegade/Daemon split. Renegades are fine, but as has been pointed out, the current codex does NOT cover Renegades. Renegades would still have Imperial technology, Scouts, Chaplains, etc. All GW did was roll out the old 3rd edition rulebook with a different name and some different fluff.

 

I really would like to tread warily since I havent received my codex yet, but I definitely agree with Maeklos's reasoning. Chaos is cool coz it's a bit complex. It's flavour lies in NOT being a cookiecutter army. If anyone feel they need to check it out, go find the old 3rd ed. codex chaos (written by no one else than JJ). Its thin, generic and the most boring of all the chaos codexes IMHO. What really bugs me is the reports on mix 'n match marked units. Show me the powergamer who won't drool over a unit that combines the cc abilities of Khorne with the psychic abilities of Slaanesh. Quite possible to have with the new codex, from what I understand. So, it could well be that those who applaud the death of all us "cheese mongering straight out evil powergamers" that obviously makes up chaos players <_< might find even more powergamers playing chaos, as the list seems even more easily abusive. And less flavourful to boot.

 

Oh well, GW's strong side has always been the background and models, they never really got the rules right...

 

/Cheers

[l192837465]

i'm tired of going to every forum on the net and seeing people complain about it. there are so many good things in it! like basic marines, rhinos are cheap as crap, terminators are worth taking now, etc etc.

 

i'm sorry you spent all that time and money on your Noise marine army and now its unusable. you could (instead of complaining about it) try and fix it. 6 squads of noise marines takes care of the blastmaster issue, as for the termies and bikes, i'm afraid you're gonna have to buy new stuff like generally what happens when a new codex comes out and stuff is eliminated from certain armies. remember 2nd - 3rd ed? i could no longer use about 30 pink horrors.

 

the individuality is still there, you just have to find it.

 

and i thought the last codex was insultingly terrible. i read it as "play this because if you do, we'll make money and you get a FREE aspiring champion!"

 

apparently, making marked marines amazingly better is a bad thing? i dont know, i guess i'm out of the loop.

[/sarcasm]

[Maeklos]

2. Everyone who feels this way, start up a thread to get developing a letter or e-mail to someone important. E-mail white dwarf, whatever, but instead of telling us how much you hate the new codex, tell someone who can change things. Im sure that many people are suffering due to the new codex, so why not try and do somthing. If your really lucky they could put somthing on the website, or even white dwarf. Im not sayinbg it will definately do anything, but do somthing useful with your ideas.

 

Already on this, mate. Jervis puts his e-mail on the Standard Bearer section of White Dwarf, I'm planning on tracking it down when I get home from work and posting it here so people can forward their concerns/complaints/compliments to him on things he's supervised/approved/fixed/screwed up.

[Gree]

Parhaps instead of argueing with each other, if you have lovingly converted an army that has been totally screwed over by the new codex, you can do two things.

 

1. Enjoy the fact the new models exist, maybe use them, and just stick to the old codex. Of course, this only works for social gaming, which leads me to suggest...

 

2. Everyone who feels this way, start up a thread to get developing a letter or e-mail to someone important. E-mail white dwarf, whatever, but instead of telling us how much you hate the new codex, tell someone who can change things. Im sure that many people are suffering due to the new codex, so why not try and do somthing. If your really lucky they could put somthing on the website, or even white dwarf. Im not sayinbg it will definately do anything, but do somthing useful with your ideas.

 

It will probaly be ignored

[Soulmage]

I like the new codex. I think it will be good for the game.

 

 

On a separate note. . . I saw folks complaining that 'renegades' should have access to new equipment. Certainly I can't fault the logic of that argument w/ respect to more recent renegade chapters.

 

. . . but I also don't see why those chapters wouldn't just be represented by Codex:SM with different background story. . . leaving Codex:CSM to the "old" renegade chapters that have been rebels for quite a while. . . even if not necessarily one of the original traitor legions.

[Elchimpster]

I for one would like to see less venom "stick it" etc.

I understand some of the frustration, but lets chill out folks.

 

 

My worries about a email/mail crusade to JJ is that ...what? The squeaky wheel gets the grease?

The pissed off guys will mail like crazy, what about the other guys who like it?

It'll look like everyone hates it and nobody likes it...which is patently false.

[Maeklos]

. . . but I also don't see why those chapters wouldn't just be represented by Codex:SM with different background story. . . leaving Codex:CSM to the "old" renegade chapters that have been rebels for quite a while. . . even if not necessarily one of the original traitor legions.

 

That's the point. New renegade chapters can fall under C:SM very easily. And if GW felt they absolutely needed their own codex, wouldn't it make more sense to include these non-Legions in with Lost and the Damned, instead of cutting LatD out, possibly for good?

[Belger31]

If you're making this post you must have completely missed the point of what he was trying to say. A codex for each legion isn't mandatory, but a codex for the CULT legions, and a codex for the UNDIVIDED legions AT LEAST should be printed. The LEGIONS should be AT LEAST different enough from the freaking RED CORSAIRS to get a new codex, because the orginization of say black templars vs space marines isn't even that different!!! It might be an independent codex, but look at how many list entries are EXACTLY The same! The BT aren't even first founding ect...

 

As far as power gamers go, that post WAS really insulting. Please, go play death guard or thousand sons, right up the cheesiest list you can think of, then see how well you do at a tournament. Please. They aren't 'one crutch' win armies. Bloody ignorants.

 

My point must have been missed as well. The fact is that all codices will be written this way for 4th edition. The traits that separate most Space Marine chapters from Ultramarines will go away with the next printing. Mark my word. In the end it will lead to more competitive gaming.

 

I do feel for those who have to convert their models. I'm sure that most of your conversions can be very unique "counts as" models, though, and won't need any changes.

 

As for the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, or any other independent chapter; they are no more associated with Space Marines than Chaos Marines are from an army list point of view. Sure many have the same models and units. So do chaos marines, sisters of battle, and inquisitors. I'm pretty sure that GW isn't making their decisions based on your criteria, but on criteria that helps them grow their business. I'm assuming they are doing it based on market research and game data sampling. If your beloved legion has enough demand for its own book from people who will make it worth GW's time, you will probably get it. In the mean time, I don't think they need create rules that potentially unbalance their game.

 

As ignorant as I am in the B&C, I have a grip on reality otherwise.

[Night Stalker]

We need Chaos Space Marines/Daemonworld(Heretics/Mutants/Daemons) split.

 

 

Seriously - Undivided legions do fine in new dex. Every single one ( ok i lie - World Bearers are shafted - Daemon world list will be better for them).

 

Lexington make single best post in this month. I couldn't say it better.

 

this codex work for:

-some renegade forces

-warbands

-most undivided legion forces

[Black and White]

I like the new codex. I think it will be good for the game.

 

 

On a separate note. . . I saw folks complaining that 'renegades' should have access to new equipment. Certainly I can't fault the logic of that argument w/ respect to more recent renegade chapters.

 

. . . but I also don't see why those chapters wouldn't just be represented by Codex:SM with different background story. . . leaving Codex:CSM to the "old" renegade chapters that have been rebels for quite a while. . . even if not necessarily one of the original traitor legions.

 

Even if they were rebels for quite a while... I'm sure ALL renegades didn't lose their techmarines. I'm sure renegades have the capacity of stealing new parts, all they'd have to do is take equipment of fallen space marines, raid imperial supply dumps ect... They might have LESS but they should certainly have SOME of their previous equipment. Plus heresy era equipment like combi-bolters and reaper autocannons? Yeah those are totally common items just lying around in the eye of terror, much more common than storm bolters and assault cannons... Logic would dictate, that if the old legions have dwindled and are no longer the driving force, than newer equipment should be prevailent, not the heresy era gear that would dwindle with the legions.

[Belger31]

Even if they were rebels for quite a while... I'm sure ALL renegades didn't lose their techmarines. I'm sure renegades have the capacity of stealing new parts, all they'd have to do is take equipment of fallen space marines, raid imperial supply dumps ect... They might have LESS but they should certainly have SOME of their previous equipment. Plus heresy era equipment like combi-bolters and reaper autocannons? Yeah those are totally common items just lying around in the eye of terror, much more common than storm bolters and assault cannons... Logic would dictate, that if the old legions have dwindled and are no longer the driving force, than newer equipment should be prevailent, not the heresy era gear that would dwindle with the legions.

 

So you want everything space marines have and then some?

[Lexington]

Okay fine. How can I play my Doon Siren lord or Noise Marine Termies? Do I just do them as counts as? What about my Noise Marine bikers and Noise Marine Havocs? [...] Also where do I put my Alpha Legion cultists in the new list?

Now, see, these? Legitimate complaints. Ditto to the Iron Warrior players who lost their $40 Basalisks. This goes ten times for the LatD players who lost their entire army in the sweep of a pen. I sympathize. There's lot of crap patches in the Chaos Codex. When you take into account the complete gutting of the background, it is without a doubt the worst bodge-job of a Codex since early 3rd Edition, and players should rail against these sorts of failures on the part of GW.

 

However, these aren't the focus of most complaints. What I hear is "The rules don't make 'x' unit special for my specific Legion of choice anymore! They're taking away my individuality!" The need to be rewarded with a rules bonus for the oh-so-arduous task of playing according to the rules of good sportsmanship and attention to the background is, to me, totally childish.

 

I play Word Bearers, and build my army accordingly, because I love their background. Have loved it since they were not but a few scant paragraphs in the 2nd Edition Codex (yes, somehow, we got along without Legion-specific rules back then). My army's individuality is in its modelling, in its painting, and in the personality I write for it on my own. The army list's just a way to translate all that to the tabletop.

[Celestial Dragon King]

How about also the fact that your lord will never be a Berzerker, Plague Marine or Noise Marine. Even though he's leading a whole army of them he can't be one himself.

 

I had tons of Blastmasters. Now I'll be lucky if I can use 1!

 

I too had Noise Marine bikes. GONE!

 

Converted Noise Marine termis with sonic blasters. GONE!

 

Converted Predator with blastmaster. GONE!

 

Twenty converted cultists for Alpha Marines. GONE!

 

I'm not just disappointed in chaos honestly it's GW and the whole 40k system! I always thought the rules were a bit childish but this is just absurd. I especially hate the talking out of their behinds with saying they are going to work in the fluff and the do the opposite.

 

You can have all the imagination you want it's not going to help.

 

To those of us who spent a lot of time and money now we can't even use what we put a lot of work into it's a big disapointement.

 

Keep an eye on ebay guys. Maybe you can take off the conversions i did but I sure can't because I put too much work in it.

[Black and White]

Even if they were rebels for quite a while... I'm sure ALL renegades didn't lose their techmarines. I'm sure renegades have the capacity of stealing new parts, all they'd have to do is take equipment of fallen space marines, raid imperial supply dumps ect... They might have LESS but they should certainly have SOME of their previous equipment. Plus heresy era equipment like combi-bolters and reaper autocannons? Yeah those are totally common items just lying around in the eye of terror, much more common than storm bolters and assault cannons... Logic would dictate, that if the old legions have dwindled and are no longer the driving force, than newer equipment should be prevailent, not the heresy era gear that would dwindle with the legions.

 

So you want everything space marines have and then some?

 

Aside from the downsides of being rebels, less numbers, less equipment (note they should still have SOME)... logically, they should have the equipment + some support/gifts from the gods.

 

As far as individuality goes, it dosen't matter what legion you play now. You're exactly the same as EVERY OTHER chaos army, despite being described as entirely different in the fluff. The same backlash would happen if GW decided to invaldidate all the splinter space marine codexes. It isn't fair.

[Celestial Dragon King]

Really Renegades should have been a different codex from the other legions. Yes there maybe be too many marine codexs out there but you know why? They sell. They out sell all armies put together! So don't whine that there are too many. Space marines keeps GW going. It's jsut the fact we had a codex just like DA, BA, and SW and it was taken away. Soon Salamanders, RG, and IH, and IF will have the same thing done to them a bit. Though they have less to loose than we did.

 

I can only hope that the will at least do something like the old Lost and the Dammed book. So a Tzeentch/Nurgle codex and a Khorne/Slaanesh codex. Of course that won't help me get my Alpha Legion back.