The newest Chaos codex

[Lexington]

For an example of fluff lining up to table top experience, Abbadon. Abbadon is a clone of horus. A clone of a primarch. THE primarch. If the whole argument is that world eatters have been around 10k years and shouldn't be the same as a newly fallen marine worshipping chaos...Abbadon is genetically equivalent of a PRIMARCH. He's HORUS' CLONE.

And, to be fair (once again!), Abbadon is only rumored to be the clone son of Horus. A rumor that's stuck, to be sure, but a rumor none the less.

[siphon101]

edit: double post

[Gree]

So basicly what you are saying is that there is no diffrence between a 10k year old World Eaters lord and a recently turned Astral Claw captain? It makes no sense at all.

 

In a background perspective of COURSE there's a difference between a 10,000 year old world eater's lord and a recently turned captain. Absolutly. The question is whether there should be a game play difference.

 

Because frankly speaking, while there is a difference between a day 1 captain and an original legion 10k old lord, there's also a difference between a 1 day fallen captain, and a lord fallen 3000 years ago. And 6000, and 4000, and one that fell 8000 years ago but only turned to khorne about 1000 years ago. And someone who has been around the whole 10k years but realy wasn't paying attention the first 5k or so.

 

Because as soon as we make distinction between "OK, this is the 10k old fallen guy and this is the new fallen guy" well where's the 5k fallen guy on the table? surely there's a difference there too, that makes no sense, there must be something in between...

 

And all the time, if abaddon really had the stats that a primarch should he'd be invincible and 1000 points all by himself. The warhammer 40k world is massive, and sometimes stuff that's in the background doesn't really match stuff that's on the table. It CAN'T. So yeah, your 10k khorne lord probably, if the world were real, be stronger than the recently turned khorne lord.

 

But there's also 10,000 years of variation and permutation that could occur, and there are 5000 year old lords, and 3000 ones, and 1000 ones, and theoretically they'd ALL be different. At some point you just gotta accept that for simplicity's sake, sometimes what's on the table doesn't reflect the background

 

Abbadon was only rumored to be the clone son of horus. That's like saying that there are rumors of aliens kidnapping people and brainwashing them.

 

Abotu your're lords. Why do they not have the abilties of there basic soldiers? If I have a bezerker lord logicaly he should get furious charge. So a lord dedicated to Khorne cannot have the same abilties as his grunt bezerkers.

 

My EC has sonic weaponry. Despite leading a warband my lord cannot take said sonic weaponry. Did they jsut decide to throw it all away along with the combat drugs?

[BloodRed]

This Codex gets things drastically wrong in that it focuses on the (stupid, stupid) renegades

 

I actually think it's a great idea. There's been too much of a focus on the traitor legions. My first marine chapter was a renage chapter (I wanted to use the Orks & Gretchin from the 2nd edition box as allies and couldn't do it with the Space Marine codex, so I used the Chaos one with very little daemonic stuff).

 

The Traitor Legions, however, have always been central to the story of 40k. The Horus Heresy and the development of the Imperium are directly connected to the Traitor Legions. I've seen it argued, and to a point agree, that 40k is, if anything, about Loyal Marines vs Traitor Legions. The Horus Heresy has always been a central piece of 40k background.

 

But it's about time that the renegades got a bit of focus. And I think it's been done in such a way that only those who converted it all ended up with stuff invalidated/relegated to "counts as" status. There is nothing stopping you from using this Codex: Renegade Space Marines to make a Traitor Legion army.

 

Abotu your're lords. Why do they not have the abilties of there basic soldiers? If I have a bezerker lord logicaly he should get furious charge. So a lord dedicated to Khorne cannot have the same abilties as his grunt bezerkers.

 

My EC has sonic weaponry. Despite leading a warband my lord cannot take said sonic weaponry. Did they jsut decide to throw it all away along with the combat drugs?

 

This is a good point. The options for characters to take legion specific stuff has largely been removed. There is now 1 HQ choice that can have Furious Charge. And 1 with a sonic weapon (Khârn & Lucius, respectively). So you still have the option of taking a Lord with those abilities (using whatever model you like and renaming the named characters) but you'll have to accept all their other specific abilities and equipment as well.

 

You can partially solve the Noise Marine one by taking a sorcerer with doom bolt. It's not quite the same, but you'll have an 18" special gun that could be a good rules solution for a chaos overloaded sonic weapon (requires the psychic test to handle it).

[Gree]

This Codex gets things drastically wrong in that it focuses on the (stupid, stupid) renegades

 

I actually think it's a great idea. There's been too much of a focus on the traitor legions. My first marine chapter was a renage chapter (I wanted to use the Orks & Gretchin from the 2nd edition box as allies and couldn't do it with the Space Marine codex, so I used the Chaos one with very little daemonic stuff).

 

The Traitor Legions, however, have always been central to the story of 40k. The Horus Heresy and the development of the Imperium are directly connected to the Traitor Legions. I've seen it argued, and to a point agree, that 40k is, if anything, about Loyal Marines vs Traitor Legions. The Horus Heresy has always been a central piece of 40k background.

 

But it's about time that the renegades got a bit of focus. And I think it's been done in such a way that only those who converted it all ended up with stuff invalidated/relegated to "counts as" status. There is nothing stopping you from using this Codex: Renegade Space Marines to make a Traitor Legion army.

 

There is nothign stopping you from making an Undivided Legion using the new codex. Cult Legions are a diffrent ball game.

[Lexington]

But it's about time that the renegades got a bit of focus. And I think it's been done in such a way that only those who converted it all ended up with stuff invalidated/relegated to "counts as" status. There is nothing stopping you from using this Codex: Renegade Space Marines to make a Traitor Legion army.

True enough, but that's not really my point. Like you said, the Horus Heresy and the Loyalist/Traitor clashes are the definitive narratives of 40K. The Traitor Legions are a connection back to that time, and have the deep, driving hatred of ten thousand years behind them, and each has an interesting history behind their creation and their Primarch.

 

The renegades (the ones covered in the book, anyhow) are boring. I mean, Red Corsairs aside, they're just a bunch of angry pirate Marines who worship Chaos seemingly because it's convenient. That's just not an interesting story from my angle.

[BloodRed]

There is nothign stopping you from making an Undivided Legion using the new codex. Cult Legions are a diffrent ball game.

 

Emperor's Children

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer, Lucius

Elites - All w/ mark or icon of Slaanesh

Troops - Noise Marines & CSM w/ icon of Slaanesh

Fast Attack - All w/ icon of Slaanesh

Heavy Support - All w/ icon of Slaanesh

Non-Foc - Greater Daemon, Lesser Daemon, Spawns

 

Iron Warriors

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer

Elites - All

Troops - CSM, cult troopers as "counts as" cybernetic troopers if you like

Fast Attack - All

Heavy Support - All

Non-Foc - Daemons don't fit too well with IW, but they theoretically could have a guy that summons them. Spawns would be useful for cool technological craziness-- chaos robots, if you will.

 

Night Lords

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer

Elites - All

Troops - CSM

Fast Attack - All (and lots)

Heavy Support - All

Non-Foc - lesser daemons

 

Death Guard

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer, Typhus

Elites - All w/ Icon of Nurgle

Troops - CSM w/ icon of nurgle, Plague Marines

Fast Attack - all w/ Icon of Nurgle

Heavy Support - All w/ Icon of Nurgle

Non-Foc -- All. Nurglings as either lesser daemons or as spawns?

 

Thousand Sons

 

HQ - DP, Sorcerer, Ahriman

Elites - Dreads (Terminators don't have rubric rules - not a lot suitable)

Troops - Thousand Sons

Fast Attack - Not a lot suitable

Heavy Support - All the vehicles.

Non-Foc - All

 

Word Bearers

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer

Elites - All

Troops - CSM

Fast Attack - All

Heavy Support - All

Non-FoC - All

 

Note: This army should have access to cultists as they are very interested in spreading the worship of Chaos.

 

Alpha Legion

 

HQ - Lord, Sorcerer (DP isn't that fluffy, but you could)

Elites - Chosen (lots), Terminators (less)

Troops - CSM

Fast Attack - All

Heavy Support - All

Non-Foc - Not too many.

 

Note - this army should have non-marine recruits (cultists) as they are very interested in infiltrating Imperial society

 

World Eaters

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Khârn

Elites - All w/ icon of Khorne

Troops - Berzerkers, CSM w/ Icon of Khorne

Fast Attack - All w/ Icon of Khorne

Heavy - All w/ Icon of Khorne

non-FoC - All

 

Black Legion

 

No problems here.

 

So, there you go. You can make any of the Traitor Legions to atleast the degree of a legal army. The worst of the cult legions would be the Thousand Sons as there are no Rubric Terminators, so all you can take is Sorcerers, DPs, Thousand Sons, Daemons and Vehicles-- which is still not bad!

 

The worst of the traitor legions would probably be the Alpha Legion not being able to take cultists. I've always thought the Word Bearers should be able to have them as well.

 

Looks like you can make all the existing Traitor Legions-- and effective, fluffy ones at that (except if you want cultists in Alpha Legion or Word Bearers-- but they don't always operate with cultists).

[brninghalo]

As I live in California, I will not see the new Chaos Codex until mid-September. What I have read or heard about is

all rumor, but I find it to be interesting rumors.

 

I play World Eaters. I am certain that I will be able to play a pure WE army with the new codex. However, the rules changes that I have heard about have me pleased. I loose the special rules for chain axes but I also loose the mandatory (and frustrating) Blood Rage rules. That is a fair trade off and I'm glad they did it.

 

Generic demons? It sounds like a :cuss??? but then they are cheaper, do not occupy the valuable force org slots and then they made improvements to the summoning rules. Very cool-5 to 7 strong hit squads of demons with more accurate summoning rules to deliver them into the enemy. And cheaper rhinos to boot?

 

I have heard about more pages of fluff on some of the lesser well known renegade chapters as well as new color schemes. New figures, which are fantastic looking to support the new release and all of this just before the release of Apocalypse.

 

It may be me, but I don't see very much to be upset with for the new Chaos Codex.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[DARKTROOPER]

I like the new Cult legion specific rules but feel terrible for Alpha Legion and Word Bearers who got SHAFTED1

[Ignatius]

Well I played against the new list last night and its not bad, not as powerful but still more than effective. I beat it with my Salamanders but I think a lot of this was down to the fact I know how to play them like the back of my hand and my opponent was still getting use to his list and the new rules! They still have a lot of the old tricks but just executed in a different way! Like the icons (can't remember the name but allows a re roll on LD and acts as a teleport homer but you my place your teleporting model any within 6" of the icon! nice for teleporting sourcers nice for some of their powers :( !

 

Abbadon is sick with his potential 11 attacks! but will go down if he bites off to much to chew on! Daemon weapons are pretty hard but they are more generalised! (if you roll a one for the D6 attacks that some daemon weapons allow you to do, your nice expensive lord just stands there a does nothing which is amusing!)

 

Also it seems from the back ground fluff that the legions are pretty much dissolved now (they still exist but not as they did heresy era) and really now fight as bands which the new dex seems to represent. I mean the World Eaters and Emperor's Children are pretty much smash and their marines what remains of them are all cult marines now same goes for the Thousand Sons (now much better in the new rules btw).

 

The problem is I agree that it has lost character but give people the character back and they abuse it and for that we are all paying the price we only have our selves to blame in some ways!

 

I

[BrainFireBob]

Add another vote to the "what the hell" regarding the "no special rules (which were basically all advantages in the last dex) equals my army *no longer existing*". It's completely illogical, and increasing emotional fervor doesn't add any truth to it.

[Lord_Stetson]

The Chaos players who think this codex is a steaming pile of fecies aren't saying"give me winning special rules". One of the largest problems of the new codex isn't its power (the new dex can make just as powerful armies as the old 3.5 dex) its the loss of the ability to create an assault army. If you want to (or already have) a shooty chaos army, your army is mostly unnafected. iw loses the basalisk and 4th heavy but still can do a solid firepower based army. Its the assault chaos army that got the shaft. I can make a slaanesh army that shoots like a fiend, but i play I.G., necrons, and a shooty loyalist army. I don't think 40k needs another shooting army. I don't mind them changing things up, but more than half of the diversity of the codex is gone. The sad fact is, powergamers will always find a way to min/max, and instead of what you used to see, you will be seeing alot of nurgle/tzeench power armies, and instead of the iw complaints., in 3 months it wil be "oh the tzeench terminators are too powerful, why arent the other terminators as good?" I miss the assault chaos army, which now, is dead and gone. I dont mean to say that you wont see them, but they will now be an army played "for the fluff".

[ArmouredWing]

Wow, lots of Alpha legion players here, but there again i guess this is the Chaos undivided forum.

I had a butchers at the new dex the other day and I'd have to agree that it lacks any kind of flavour whatsoever. Personally I mourn the loss of the legion specific rules and wargear. Now there'll be a few people out there saying "another player spitting his dummy out of the pram", but I play BECAUSE I like to have fluffy uncompetative armies, hell if I was a power player I'd not be seen anywhere near my beloved SoB.

My DG were a disease ridden, festering chapter who spread nurgles rot to anyone who got too close to them. My aspiring champions wielded plague swords and put the fear of the warp into the most fearsome creatures known to man. Now however, they simply don't.

Chaos has become too boring, too predictable and rather ironically too ordered.

[Penmarch']

Actually what I think most Chaos players dislike in the new codex is the lack of variety. I know I do anyway.

 

If GW thought that by streamlining the non Cult Legions they would get rid of powerplaying IW's or WB's, they are dead wrong. It won't take more than a few days for someone to come out with a new 'uber alles' powerlist. In fact, I've already seen one or two. And if it should prove impossible to get a Chaos powerlist the really competitive gamers will simply turn to Eldar or Necrons or whatever.

You can't stop these types and frankly, if that is what makes them tick they've got as much right to it as anyone else. However, sometims they ARE ruining the game for non- competitive players.

 

Differentiation is what gives flavour to a game and here GW dropped the ball. People playing historical wargames go to great lenghts to find out if a specific mark of tank, plane or ship was used during a given period.

Even if it's a piece of cr** that can hardly do anything right, but simply because it's different from all those Shermans, Spitfires, Bismarcks and Mark IV's.

 

Why do you think that after-market sellers of say, conversion parts or decals are still in business? Yes, because it gives the players a possibility to make their army less run of the mill.

 

Take for instance a late World War I game. Only the Germans have acces to flamethrowers and they are deadly in trench fights. What do you do? Write to the publishers and demand that the Allies get them too? No can do. Instead you could exploit their weakness ie. short range, and exploit that. Or their vulnerability to shrapnel perhaps. That's gameplay and the biggest part of the fun IMHO.

Balance the game through variety not by 'streamlining' units. You could end up with differently coloured Lego blocks with firepower XYZ and resilience QRS.

 

It is even easier to do this in a Fantasy or SF setting where there are no constraints at all, or at least very little.

Ironically by doing what they did, GW took away much of the incentive to buy another Chaos army. Because aside form the paint job there's literally nothing to differentiate it from the previous or next one. Why should anyone bother then? Except if you're a powerplayer and suddenly saw the light of course. :-)

 

Making Obliterators more expensive and vulnerable or taking away 'hit and run' from Raptors I can understand. That's called balancing a game and makes sense if proven too powerful. Saying that all Obliterators in a squad have to morph the same weapons is not. That only takes away variety and gameplay.

 

 

You could easily have let Iron Warriors have that extra heavy slot, Alpha Legions their cultists, Night Lords an extra fast slot or additional Raptors and Word Bearers their specific Daemons without unbalancing any game. I don't care if my opponent has a dozen more heavy vehicles than me. I'll match those with my anti tank units of which he has none since he spend nearly all his points on tanks. I might even find impassable terrain for tanks or lure them into a built up area and set up ambushes.

 

 

In fact what GW should have done is introduce another half dozen or so of differently equiped and organized Legions/Chapters/ Warbands.

That would have wetted the appetite for new as well as veteran players to get started on another army. Because all of us, even if we admit to it or not, we all want a unique army or at least as unique or possible.

[Maeklos]

The main reason I'm torqued off with the new Codex is that my Alpha Legion is no longer supported. Neither is my Word Bearer LatD warband. So, I'm shunning the new Chaos 'dex and dusting off my copy of C:SM. Alpha Legion is becoming a loyalist chapter with Take the Fight to Them and See But Don't Be Seen called....the Alpha Legion. Scout squads will stand in for my cultists, even though they'll look exactly the same.

My Word Bearers, on the other hand, have become Grey Knights, let by none other than Brother Captain Stern, who happens to be dressed in red and have horns. And my Grey Knight terminators will be red and toting around shields instead of actually wearing TDA...but it's all good. My Traitors have suddenly undergone intensive training and have graduated the Imperial Stormtrooper Academy. Hurrah for them!

[Penmarch']

Red Knight Terminators?

 

GW doesn't know about this yet....:-)

[Azza007]

In C:DH there are red Terminators featured in the heavyt metal section I think, and I have seen red GK armies. So seems fine.

[Belger31]

The main reason I'm torqued off with the new Codex is that my Alpha Legion is no longer supported. Neither is my Word Bearer LatD warband. So, I'm shunning the new Chaos 'dex and dusting off my copy of C:SM. Alpha Legion is becoming a loyalist chapter with Take the Fight to Them and See But Don't Be Seen called....the Alpha Legion. Scout squads will stand in for my cultists, even though they'll look exactly the same.

My Word Bearers, on the other hand, have become Grey Knights, let by none other than Brother Captain Stern, who happens to be dressed in red and have horns. And my Grey Knight terminators will be red and toting around shields instead of actually wearing TDA...but it's all good. My Traitors have suddenly undergone intensive training and have graduated the Imperial Stormtrooper Academy. Hurrah for them!

 

What will you do when they rewrite C:SM and take away their traits too?

[Spacefrisian]

I like the new Chaos Codex. No more Mutated Hull no more Iron Warriors with 4 heavy, i only feel sorry for the Nightlords and the Word Bearers.

[McNs]

Howdy:

 

I'm a new Chaos player and I've always wanted to do a Renegade (read: Undivided) Chaos list. The new Codex is great for that; in fact, I'd go so far as to say this ought to be called Codex: Renegades. It lets you have a nice smattering of different marks and feel reasonably balanced for a generally unmarked force.

 

That being said, the codex certainly lacks the flavor of the 3.5 edition 'dex. If the emphasis was supposed to be on renegades: dandy. Then give me some more fluff on renegades! Give me a few more Renegade special characters!

 

I have mixed feelings about the new feel of 4th edition. like that the unit selections are stream-lined and much less prone to abuse. I also hope that because the rules have become streamlined, GW can start adding new forces and increase the number of codexes released. I'd gladly take this codex as codex:renegades if I knew that codex:warbands (i.e. - all cults) was around the bend. Look at something like Bloodbowl: painfully simple unit selections but 20+ factions. I just hope that GW is thinking the same thing and at some point will actually convey that message to its customers.

 

As an aside, I understand why people are upset at the loss of cults. Its not so much a "Heyz! I lozt my uber Obliteraters!" as a "Well, I'm playing IW and not marking any of my troops, not taking cult marines, and not taking any FA choices. Could I have a Servo-Arm, please?". I doubt any playing EC or WE who made cult-specific Termies was really power-gaming (especially not at 40+ points a model); I can't see how letting someone who's only marking his army with the MoK is "breaking" the game by asking for Furious Assualt for his/her Termies. Samee goes for sonic weapons, cultists, etc.

 

As a said above, I hope by releasing this codex this way, GW has left space for the Cult Marines to be properly picked up at a later date. Heck, maybe we'll get some more fluff, some more SCs, and new/interesting rules out of it.

 

- McNs

[El Magnifico]

oh............my........god :(

 

 

i got bored of reading the "my beardy army of doom is finished" replies about halfway down page 2!

 

i'd say about half of my gaming group have a chaos army of some tye or another. i admit some of them (strangely the iron warriors with basilisks, vindicators, spammed obliterators etc) are saying that the new codex is rubbish but having read through it myself - i think it is a damned awesome codex!!!!

 

 

i fail to see how any chaos army that was not cheesefested cannot be made with literally a couple of minor changes.

 

 

i have a friend who has a 2000 point army that currently consists of a slannesh lord, about 10-15 slanneshi chosen and 15 daemonettes. he infiltrates, pops his bound daemonettes and uses his wings to engage you in close combat with a rediculaous number of attacks (all of the chosen have power weapons). try playing against that with an infantry army (hell, the daemonettes rip tanks apart for fun as well).

but for all his powered glory, he is not that dissapointed with the new codex despite the face that only 1 of his models (not counting the daemonettes) is now legal (his lord)

 

 

 

i can see how armies will be affected. there are points changes, there are FOC changes (obliterators and dreadnoughts spring to mind) but honestly people, i cannot see how any basic "non-beardy" casual list can be affected badly enough by the new codex to cause so many issues.

 

 

it is a well laid out, well organised and easy to understand codex that has nearly all the options that were used in the old codex.

 

 

 

whats that - you lost your slannesh Str 8 daemon prince with siren and a dreadaxe - boo-hoo

 

 

 

 

my apologies for the rant but please at least wait untill the damned codex is released everywhere and give it a few months for the players to get used to it. lets try to get our heads round it till then.

[warsmith]

Hey all.

 

First off, i will admit that I havent read the whole post. I got to the bottom of page 2 and thought that the rest of the post would carry on the same.

 

I personally think that lexingtanum (SP?) hit it on the head with his much quoted post.

 

I've not played Choas for many a year, and when I did, it was an Iron Warriors infantry force. No tanks, no obliterators, nothing but marines in power armour.

Unfortunately the army was stolen from me and I decided to pursue other forces.

 

However, that said, I am extremely glad that the new codex wont have the 'books of chaos/legions' it had in the last edition.

 

More than once I've attended tournaments and camaign weekends and seen/played the deamon bomb lists, the infiltrating first turn charge lists and, my personal pet hate, the 'standard'iron warrior list (lord, 2 defiler, vindi, bassie, 9 oblits, 2 troops and personal choice with rest). Some games aghainst such armies I've won, some I've lost.

One memorable game was against an iron warriors list as described. I deployed my forces in and behind a couple of woods that meant that very little of my force was visible to my opponent. 33 minutes latter, i'd destroyed the few things my opponent had moved into line of site and pulled off a minor victory.

 

My opponent after the game then proceeded to give me bad comp scores, complain to the GW staff there at the time and generally moan that my force hadnt moved all game and that my list was beardy (my list in fact was roughly a half battle company of marines, with a few rhinos and speeders).

 

 

Now, as I said above, the new codex will limit this, sure it wont obliterate it completely but from what \i've heard it will make 'uber cheese' armies harder to build.

 

Additionally it seems that GW are toning down the power of forces and making the selections much simpler for units and characters. My opinions on this are just 'suck it up, it's gonna happen to us all some time'.

That said, even though the nex codex is nerfing Chaos Space marines unplayable, or so it seems with the majority of the posts on the different boards I frequent, I still plan to play with the new book as I have just come into a heap of chaos marines and some other fun bits.

 

 

Dan

[Lord_Stetson]

warsmith, there are definately powergaming armies in the new chaos book. Its not the lack of power, its the lack of diversity. Admittedly, i look forward and hope the legion books will be better, but as it stands now, I have to shelf my chaos. I can't afford to buy a new army, and after reading the codex, have no inclination to try. If i wanted to build another shooty army, I'd play tau. mark my words it will be tzeench possesed/terminators with nurgle havocs and a khorne lord. That will be the "new" powergaming army. The same old complaints about the same old people will continue to pour in, just as they always have, and I am willing to wager that tzeench will get it in the nuts when the legion book(s) comes out. Just like tzeench did when the 3.5 book came out. (i remember the index astartes articles in wd. they were awsome!) And tzeench players will feel like the khorne and slaanesh players do now.

[Maeklos]

The main reason I'm torqued off with the new Codex is that my Alpha Legion is no longer supported. Neither is my Word Bearer LatD warband. So, I'm shunning the new Chaos 'dex and dusting off my copy of C:SM. Alpha Legion is becoming a loyalist chapter with Take the Fight to Them and See But Don't Be Seen called....the Alpha Legion. Scout squads will stand in for my cultists, even though they'll look exactly the same.

My Word Bearers, on the other hand, have become Grey Knights, let by none other than Brother Captain Stern, who happens to be dressed in red and have horns. And my Grey Knight terminators will be red and toting around shields instead of actually wearing TDA...but it's all good. My Traitors have suddenly undergone intensive training and have graduated the Imperial Stormtrooper Academy. Hurrah for them!

 

What will you do when they rewrite C:SM and take away their traits too?

 

By then, I'll probably end up using the new Codex: Space Wolves for my Alpha Legion, with my traitors acting as OBEL scouts (if they still have them...). But I don't think the C:SM Redux will happen anytime soon...at least not for another two years, at the least.

 

EDIT: Again, the point isn't that people miss their beardy/cheesy/etc armies. It's that they miss *their* armies. DG isn't DG. It's just BL with marks and icons. None of the uniqueness that made DG different in the previous 'dex. World Eaters weren't just a BL army with marks and icons of Khorne and a unit or two of Berzerkers thrown in. They were their own entity.

Hopefully, the Daemon Codex due out next year will solve these problems by addressing the cult armies...but that still leaves the other, non-cult Legions.

For instance, Alpha Legion. It's about infiltration and stealth, about throwing your opponent off-balance and getting to mix in some cultists to have a completely different dynamic than standard CSM armies. Word Bearers haven't changed much, though (having not been able to pour over the new 'dex ad infinitum) it seems they've lost their chaplain-esque orator. The ability of daemons to be taken outside of the FOC actually help Word Bearers along. Iron Warriors having their FOC options being swapped around means that they have different heavy support options while losing the Basilisk. The loss of the Basi doesn't seem too terrible, since Defilers do pretty much the same thing at a higher BS. The Night Lords seem to have come off better than before, though, as Raptor squads seem to be cheaper than before, though the Night Lords lost their unique drop on the 0-1 option of these. They also lose their cover save bonus, which made the Night Lords, along with the Death Guard, the premier cityfight Chaos armies.

So...who got shafted, in the end?

 

-Word Bearers get unlimited squads of daemons. Lost pedagogue (which was pretty useless in 4th ed. anyway) and their Chaplain. All-in-all, they probably ended up better.

-Iron Warriors lose the Basilisk and lost their extra heavy support. However, with dreadnoughts and obliterators being swapped around, plus Chaos Vindicators and Baneblades, this doesn't seem too much of a loss. Plus, IWs aren't marked anyway. The loss of a servo-arm sucks, as it was a small, fluffy addition that added character to, ahem, Iron Warrior characters. In the end, they are probably just as well off as before, if not better.

-Night Lords lost their extra Fast Attack and their cover save bonus, but in return, they get cheaper raptors and can thus field more of them. And the cover save bonus can be effectively re-added in with the Mark of Tzeentch (or is it the Icon?)...unfluffy, but it will work if you're a competitive Night Lord player. Again, they seem to be a bit better off.

-Alpha Legion lost their stealth specialty and their cultists, neither of which were fantastic bonus and made the Alpha Legion a "Ha! Gotcha!" army that either did very well or got slaughtered right from the beginning. No way to replicate this with the oncoming C:CSM, but you can do it well with C:SM. So...Alpha Legion got fed the shaft.

-Lost and the Damn and Cult Armies will hopefully be addressed in Codex: Daemons. Hopefully. If they aren't, then these all get smacked HARD. They become simply Black Legionnaires with different paint schemes. Paint your army red and give them Marks of Khorne and Icons of Khorne? Great. Are they World Eaters? No. Why? Because the Emperor's Children can take the exact same thing. I always wanted to see blue Berzerkers and red-and-bronze sorcerors. As well as rotting, pestilent Noise Marines and phallic Death Guard.

[Iacton Qruze]

I really don't understand all the fuss.

 

The cover art looks cool, and we all know that the codex cover is what matters.