The newest Chaos codex

[BrotherHostower]

If you don't think C:SM Redux wil happen early next year, you're deluding yourself. Your inability to alter your tactics would disgust your Primarch too. I'd expect that kind of whinging from Perterabo's whelps (afterall, he was the whiniest primarch of them all), but honestly, AL is built on tactical excellence, not the ability to infiltrate everyone.

 

Someone said you couldn't make Rubric Terminators? From what I see, there isn't a huge difference between the rubric t-sons and terminators w/mark of tzeentch, since the 2 wounds seems to have been replaced by a 4+ invuln save.

 

How can you not make an assault based Chaos list now? Did I miss something? All the standard CSM's come with bolt pistol, bolter,and close combat weapon, meaning they ALL can assault effectively. If you give them the MoK they get more attacks, or the MoS they get better initiative too, making them more effective in CC (or even MoN making them harder to hurt, or MoT if you go up against alot of Monstrous Creatures/power weapon heavy armies). Chaos Dreads and Defilers are now at extreme benefits of close combat (if your chaos dread doesn't have a shooting weapon, he can't accidentally blast your own units). What about dirt cheap terminators and chosen? Chosen can have what, half their squad with power weapons/fists? Your terminators can deep strike effortlessly next to your advancing CSMs or infiltrating chosen, and could all have combi-flamers or meltas (nice assault weapons) if you wanted. Have berzerkers all of a sudden become a shooting unit? Wait, you can now reliably get them to an assault they can effect. Oh, and what about Raptors? and all the daemons? Oh! And most of these units come with frag & krak grenades for free, meaning even berzerkers could kill an enemy dreadnought thrown at them, and can assault gunline armies that hide in cover more easily now.

[Maeklos]

I'd expect that kind of whinging from Perterabo's whelps (afterall, he was the whiniest primarch of them all), but honestly, AL is built on tactical excellence, not the ability to infiltrate everyone.

 

So, here's a question. How do you recognize this tactical excellence (as well as the Alpha Legion's penchant for surprise attacks, covert operations, and disguise) on the tabletop since they now play exactly the same and can field exactly the same as every other Chaos force out there?

 

EDIT: Also, this tactical excellence included subverting existing Chaos and deviant cells for their own end, thus providing, the cultists that Alpha Legion could take in the previous codex. This makes sense since the Alpha Legion has been effectively operating behind enemy lines for 10,000 years with only limited numbers.

How do you represent this in the new codex?

[Lord_Stetson]

If you don't think C:SM Redux wil happen early next year, you're deluding yourself. Your inability to alter your tactics would disgust your Primarch too. I'd expect that kind of whinging from Perterabo's whelps (afterall, he was the whiniest primarch of them all), but honestly, AL is built on tactical excellence, not the ability to infiltrate everyone.

 

Someone said you couldn't make Rubric Terminators? From what I see, there isn't a huge difference between the rubric t-sons and terminators w/mark of tzeentch, since the 2 wounds seems to have been replaced by a 4+ invuln save.

 

How can you not make an assault based Chaos list now? Did I miss something? All the standard CSM's come with bolt pistol, bolter,and close combat weapon, meaning they ALL can assault effectively. If you give them the MoK they get more attacks, or the MoS they get better initiative too, making them more effective in CC (or even MoN making them harder to hurt, or MoT if you go up against alot of Monstrous Creatures/power weapon heavy armies). Chaos Dreads and Defilers are now at extreme benefits of close combat (if your chaos dread doesn't have a shooting weapon, he can't accidentally blast your own units). What about dirt cheap terminators and chosen? Chosen can have what, half their squad with power weapons/fists? Your terminators can deep strike effortlessly next to your advancing CSMs or infiltrating chosen, and could all have combi-flamers or meltas (nice assault weapons) if you wanted. Have berzerkers all of a sudden become a shooting unit? Wait, you can now reliably get them to an assault they can effect. Oh, and what about Raptors? and all the daemons? Oh! And most of these units come with frag & krak grenades for free, meaning even berzerkers could kill an enemy dreadnought thrown at them, and can assault gunline armies that hide in cover more easily now.

 

Yes all the csm's have close combat weapons and (now this is the important part) NO WAY TO GET THERE! It would take a standard chaos marine (at best) 3 turns to get there. In that time you would be shot to pieces. It doesnt matter how many attacks you have if you never get there. Raptors are now just csm's with jump packs, and are expensive enough that a useful sized unit is prohibitively expensive (in dollars as well a points). the "chosen" are now only csm's with infiltrate, and in case you are wonderng, the reason people have been infiltrating 16 and 18 man squads is because 10 men almost never make it there with enough of them intact to do anything useful. How did you plan to get your berzerkers to combat? Rhino or walk, those are your options. The rhino has been collecting dust since the advent of 4th ed, and 3 turns of shooting against them will turn them to pulp. If khorne couldn't walk fast enough with fleet, what makes you think having them go slower will do you any better? It is more points effective to have your army shoot that assault now, even with khorne. The basic trooper will not see assault unless your enemy comes to you, and given that shooting seems to be dominating 4th, it wont be happening much. in a few months, the question will be asked "why do csm's have ccws? they don't use them."

[Belger31]

Most of those who hate the new codex are coming up with rather weak arguements. I really do feel for those who invested a lot in models they can no longer use, but I think those people are the exception rather than the rule. Actually, you're no worse off than any other army that got a new codex either. They all are losing their flexibility. They all are losing traits. They all have been having to remodel their HQ's and highly customized units.

 

As a Deathwing player, I've had to convert my master of the deathwing to be kitted out like Belial. I've got a bunch heavy weapons terminators I'll never use again. My squad sizes had to change. I sold my terminator librarian and terminator chaplain models to C:SM players because I didn't want to convert them again. On the bright side, though, my options opened up a ton because I've gained the ability to field any other DA unit I wish. I see Chaos of getting a similar face lift. Despite any losses, all those legion armies now have options opened up to them that they didn't have in the past. That is why I've decided to start a Chaos army myself.

 

Most of those who are complaining are just being forced outside of their comfort zone. You should play test the new rules a few times before making any rash decisions.

[Belger31]

So, here's a question. How do you recognize this tactical excellence (as well as the Alpha Legion's penchant for surprise attacks, covert operations, and disguise) on the tabletop since they now play exactly the same and can field exactly the same as every other Chaos force out there?

 

EDIT: Also, this tactical excellence included subverting existing Chaos and deviant cells for their own end, thus providing, the cultists that Alpha Legion could take in the previous codex. This makes sense since the Alpha Legion has been effectively operating behind enemy lines for 10,000 years with only limited numbers.

How do you represent this in the new codex?

 

Apparently GW expects the player (i.e. you) to display tactical excellence and not rely on the ability to infiltrate to make it easier for you. Tactical excellence is an extremely generic term in the context of a war game anyway. It could be represented in countless ways. Nonetheless, I still don't see why you need a special rule to help you out, or in your mind, make you unique.

[ZONKEY]

I am personally looking forward to the new codex and it's changes it will make my games more fun (the most important rule of all) , But i am not about to give up on my 2000 plus point army cause they changed things a bit I have personally spent too much time,money and effort to make black legion into the monstrous army it is, And I think it's a shame that other people will give up playing there armies when this codex is released.

[Maeklos]

Apparently GW expects the player (i.e. you) to display tactical excellence and not rely on the ability to infiltrate to make it easier for you. Tactical excellence is an extremely generic term in the context of a war game anyway. It could be represented in countless ways. Nonetheless, I still don't see why you need a special rule to help you out, or in your mind, make you unique.

 

That's a good non-answer: "Play better!"

 

Part of the Alpha Legion's tactical ability comes from using non-standard tactics - hence Alpharius' conflict with Guilliman over the proper way to conduct warfare. Except now, as I've said repeatedly, the Alpha Legion plays out exactly as every other Chaos army.

[Belger31]

Yes all the csm's have close combat weapons and (now this is the important part) NO WAY TO GET THERE! It would take a standard chaos marine (at best) 3 turns to get there. In that time you would be shot to pieces. It doesnt matter how many attacks you have if you never get there. Raptors are now just csm's with jump packs, and are expensive enough that a useful sized unit is prohibitively expensive (in dollars as well a points). the "chosen" are now only csm's with infiltrate, and in case you are wonderng, the reason people have been infiltrating 16 and 18 man squads is because 10 men almost never make it there with enough of them intact to do anything useful. How did you plan to get your berzerkers to combat? Rhino or walk, those are your options. The rhino has been collecting dust since the advent of 4th ed, and 3 turns of shooting against them will turn them to pulp. If khorne couldn't walk fast enough with fleet, what makes you think having them go slower will do you any better? It is more points effective to have your army shoot that assault now, even with khorne. The basic trooper will not see assault unless your enemy comes to you, and given that shooting seems to be dominating 4th, it wont be happening much. in a few months, the question will be asked "why do csm's have ccws? they don't use them."

 

How to get into assault:

- cheap rhinos, tactically using their free smoke launchers and cover

- cheap land raiders with free smoke launchers and no need of cover

- deep striking

- summoning

- flying, tactically using cover

 

This is hardly a shooty army. Though, you can clearly take pressure off your assault transports by fielding heavy weapons of your own now. You may be outmatched against tyranids or orcs, but I'm pretty sure you'll hold your own against every other army. I personally can't wait to have a fleet defiler with 4 or 5 attacks.

[Night Stalker]

@Lord_Stetson: how many terrain do you use ? it seems that not too much :P

[Belger31]

That's a good non-answer: "Play better!"

 

Yup. A good game requires a level playing field. Under those conditions, may the best man win.

 

Part of the Alpha Legion's tactical ability comes from using non-standard tactics - hence Alpharius' conflict with Guilliman over the proper way to conduct warfare. Except now, as I've said repeatedly, the Alpha Legion plays out exactly as every other Chaos army.

 

Impossible. Every other army is not going to have the same units, marks, and wargear that yours does. Perhaps you should take non-standard units so that you can use non-standard tactics. If you want to infiltrate so bad, then takes lots of chosen.

[Maeklos]

Impossible. Every other army is not going to have the same units, marks, and wargear that yours does. Perhaps you should take non-standard units so that you can use non-standard tactics. If you want to infiltrate so bad, then takes lots of chosen.

 

Sure, the Chosen can infiltrate. But they're prohibitively expensive. Used as part of a tactical, non-standard plan, they can be useful, though. What about the rest of it? Daemons? The Alpha Legion eschews daemons. Cultists wave attacks? Don't exist anymore. Using massive Obliterator fire? Alphans don't use Obliterators, from a fluff standpoint. Likewise heavy armour and large numbers of Havocs.

Many other armies have some form of tactical ability that can be used, whether it's the A Word in Your Ear of the assassin, the Imperial Guard medal that lets you redeploy one of your units before the battle, so forth. This would be good to even going some of the way towards representing the Legion's ability to out-think their enemies...but alas, it doesn't exist.

 

So far, I've got - Take a bunch of Chosen so a part of your force can Infiltrate. Anything else?

[redbeard]

Yup. A good game requires a level playing field. Under those conditions, may the best man win.

 

You can have a level playing field, and still have options. I mean, orks and chaos and eldar and marines and guard and tau all seem to be able to play the same game, and they're not all the same.

 

So why the need to take away our options.

 

My Emperor's Children army, which I spent over $1000 to build, less than a year ago, is no longer fieldable in a WYSIWYG environment. I built my army specifically to play in GTs and RTTs, and thanks to this new codex, that's no longer even possible for me. Less than a year ago.

 

My dreadnought with a blastmaster is hardly powergaming.

My noise marine havoks aren't unbalanced.

My terminators converted to have sonic blasters aren't overpowering, nor are my bikers with the same upgrade.

My mounted daemonettes were a good one-shot unit, but they're fragile too. They're a strong choice, but not overpowering.

 

None of these things led to an unbalanced game. And yet, the morons at GW central decided that I shouldn't be allowed any choices as to how I want my army to be, what I want it to represent. And, in doing so, they turned a well painted, painstakingly converted army into a bunch of models that cannot even be legally fielded.

 

I'm not complaining that they're weaker now - they're not even legal choices now. And I bought them less than a year ago.

 

Am I pissed? You bet. Is GW losing a customer? You bet. I'll play with what I already own, but I'm not wasting another cent on their models. If it's that easy for them to sweepingly invalidate my entire army, what makes you think that yours isn't next?

[Belger31]

Sure, the Chosen can infiltrate. But they're prohibitively expensive. Used as part of a tactical, non-standard plan, they can be useful, though. What about the rest of it? Daemons? The Alpha Legion eschews daemons. Cultists wave attacks? Don't exist anymore. Using massive Obliterator fire? Alphans don't use Obliterators, from a fluff standpoint. Likewise heavy armour and large numbers of Havocs.

Many other armies have some form of tactical ability that can be used, whether it's the A Word in Your Ear of the assassin, the Imperial Guard medal that lets you redeploy one of your units before the battle, so forth. This would be good to even going some of the way towards representing the Legion's ability to out-think their enemies...but alas, it doesn't exist.

 

So far, I've got - Take a bunch of Chosen so a part of your force can Infiltrate. Anything else?

 

I've said it about 10 times in this thread. You are going to have to get used to the new codex formats. You can not compare the new codex armies with the old ones. Eventually those older codices will be redone and they will lose many of these tactical abilities you speak of. Every army done under the new format complains of the same exact things. Chaos just happened to be one fo the first on GW's list.

 

No, I don't have answers for you. Mostly because I won't know the details of the codex any more than anyone else does until I have it in my hand. Nor am I an Alpha Legion player, so I have not studied the details like you have. Clearly, you will not be able to directly map your current army list to the new codex. I just tried to point out an option that will allow you to play using similar tactics. How about deep striking terminators or raptors? Or maybe use your cultist models as demons (instead of saying they were summoned, say that they infiltrated). Whose to say there won't be fluff in the next codex about Alpha Legion that will help you out? If not, maybe it will be in that other codex that is rumored to come out in the spring. If all else fails, be creative. That is partly what this game is all about.

[Lord_Stetson]

How to get into assault:

- cheap rhinos, tactically using their free smoke launchers and cover

- cheap land raiders with free smoke launchers and no need of cover

- deep striking

- summoning

- flying, tactically using cover

 

This is hardly a shooty army. Though, you can clearly take pressure off your assault transports by fielding heavy weapons of your own now. You may be outmatched against tyranids or orcs, but I'm pretty sure you'll hold your own against every other army. I personally can't wait to have a fleet defiler with 4 or 5 attacks.

 

Rhinos are cheap because they are a truly unreliable way to get your troops there. If rhino's were worth thier points, then no one would have abandoned them at the beginning of 4th ed (loyalist and csm alike).

 

The landraider has limited capacity to transport troops, and is still expensive (lost the deux ex) and has limited fire support potential.

 

Only raptors, terminators and daemons "deep strike" (summoning counts as deep strike now)

 

so, waiting for a deepstrike now, if everything shows up on turn 2 (unlikely) you can shoot, and have to wai the turn to do anything. So your expensive troops that came in from orbit spend a turn as template bait. still have to wait for turn 3 to do anything with them.

 

Defilers are only av12, and if you fleet you don't get to use your battle cannon. And for the points you pay, they are very worth it to target. I will be interested to see how you feel about your defilers after playtesting them.

 

Daemons are csm's without a +3 save and can't charge when they come in.

 

So the awnser to "how to field a dedicated assault chaos army?" is add heavy weapons. this doesnt strike you as an oxymoron? Where am i going to get the choices to field those heavy weapons if i have to buy 3 land raiders to move my (10 man at best) squad?

 

edit: @Night Stalker anywhere from 6 to 16 pieces on a 6x4 board

[Maeklos]

If all else fails, be creative. That is partly what this game is all about.

 

I'm with you here, hence why I'm using C:SM to recreate my budding Alpha Legion. Besides, since the Alpha Legion doesn't really use daemons (and I don't, at all), I won't feel the lack.

 

But the people who are angry with the new codex can't be easily assuaged. Why? Because GW took the armies that they had spent thousands of hours and thousand of dollars on, and invalidated them all. Every old-school Chaos player is going to have to sit down with the new codex and basically relearn everything from the ground up. For some people, this won't mean much, and some are looking forward to it enthusiacally. For the rest, it will be a period of adjustment and reconciliation. And for the last, it means that everything they've worked on for the last four or five years has just gone down the toilet.

 

Being a Chaos player has always encouraged customization, both in play styles to account for eclectic armies as well as in modeling, to produce the Legion-specific weapons that are now quite common.

 

In effect, it's as if GW took away, say...Codex: Space Wolves and just told the Pup to play Tau instead.

[Belger31]

You can have a level playing field, and still have options. I mean, orks and chaos and eldar and marines and guard and tau all seem to be able to play the same game, and they're not all the same.

 

So why the need to take away our options.

 

My Emperor's Children army, which I spent over $1000 to build, less than a year ago, is no longer fieldable in a WYSIWYG environment. I built my army specifically to play in GTs and RTTs, and thanks to this new codex, that's no longer even possible for me. Less than a year ago.

 

My dreadnought with a blastmaster is hardly powergaming.

My noise marine havoks aren't unbalanced.

My terminators converted to have sonic blasters aren't overpowering, nor are my bikers with the same upgrade.

My mounted daemonettes were a good one-shot unit, but they're fragile too. They're a strong choice, but not overpowering.

 

None of these things led to an unbalanced game. And yet, the morons at GW central decided that I shouldn't be allowed any choices as to how I want my army to be, what I want it to represent. And, in doing so, they turned a well painted, painstakingly converted army into a bunch of models that cannot even be legally fielded.

 

I'm not complaining that they're weaker now - they're not even legal choices now. And I bought them less than a year ago.

 

Am I pissed? You bet. Is GW losing a customer? You bet. I'll play with what I already own, but I'm not wasting another cent on their models. If it's that easy for them to sweepingly invalidate my entire army, what makes you think that yours isn't next?

 

Like I've said before, situations like yours are worth being angry about. As a DA player, I've been there. In a former post I listed all the things I've had to convert or sell. Your problem seems worse, but I'm betting you can convert most of them. Most of what you suggested requires swapping out weapons. Something I've done plenty of since C:DA came out. Besides, WYSIWYG is more about not representing a HQ's plasma pistol with a bolt pistol because that can be confusing to the opponent. Since you can not field a blast master with a dreadnought, you can pick the weapon it most closely represents and say that's what it is. Whether or not that works in a RTT is something to call and ask about.

 

So the awnser to "how to field a dedicated assault chaos army?" is add heavy weapons. this doesnt strike you as an oxymoron? Where am i going to get the choices to field those heavy weapons if i have to buy 3 land raiders to move my (10 man at best) squad?

 

edit: @Night Stalker anywhere from 6 to 16 pieces on a 6x4 board

 

I believe land raiders have 2 TLLC's and 1 TLHB. Combine that with troop carrying capacity and the fact they can be used as mobile cover, and I think you have your bases covered.

[Ashrubeal]

i have to agree

 

i have not seen the new codex, so i dont know exactly what the changes are

 

i feel that it is best to field themed armies, you do not need any special rules to field them, for example, the world eaters charge towards the enemy wirlding close combat weapons and bolt pistols to rip them to pieces, this is still possible to do. so what if the codex is prety much codex black legion. as ;long as players are willing to field what models they like, with whatever god they choose to follow thats all that matters.

 

im thinking of doing a thousd son army, not because of the rumours ive heard, but the fact that i like the models and i have a few cool conversions planed. ive also dreamed of fielding a thousand sons army which is centered around termies. so what if they dont have the rubric, so what if they are not all sorcerers. GW have balanced the army well, and still have given the hoice to field perfectly legal themed armies.

[Belger31]

Being a Chaos player has always encouraged customization, both in play styles to account for eclectic armies as well as in modeling, to produce the Legion-specific weapons that are now quite common.

 

Therein lies the problem though. If something were to be terribly unbalanced in the game, a high level of customization always complicates things. And players who took advantage of that customization will be burned when they try to fix the imbalance. I'm a software developer and the same problem occurs when you have overly complex software with a major performance issue that needs to be fixed. Essentially you make sure you simplify the software when you rewrite it. In othe words, I believe GW is trying to cut off the limb before the poison spreads too far.

 

Also, I've played this game for about 7 years and I remember chaos in 2nd edition being only marginally more customizable than C:SM. The high level of customization came along in 3rd edition when a number of other codices, such as tyranids, allowed a lot of customization. So I'm not going to buy into the "that's the way chaos has always been" arguement.

[Maeklos]

Therein lies the problem though. If something were to be terribly unbalanced in the game, a high level of customization always complicates things. And players who took advantage of that customization will be burned when they try to fix the imbalance.

 

Except that instead of making Chaos unexploitable, they made it even MORE exploitable. And took away the flavor, to boot. What's not cheesy about a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne and a Daemon Weapon on a Juggernaut and his 6+2D6 attacks of Doom? Or the possibility of a Sorceror Lord with Force Weapon and the Mark of Khorne? Or using that ol' Lash of Submission to round up people for the Vindicator Pieplates O' Doom?

 

What happened, rules-wise, is that instead of making Chaos exploitable, they turned it into the UberDeath Army of Doom. And then the fluff got slaughtered.

[l192837465]

Lord_Stetson:

 

why the hell are you even playing anymore? i wouldnt doubt you biatching about CSM being "not worth thier points".

 

jesus, "i'm gonna complain about everything in this codex for the sheer idea of complaining"

 

terminators: walk em. theyer 30 points a pop and will absorb a ton of fire.

 

rhinos: they're so cheap BEACUSE they're discarded early in the game. but you know what? that first move of 12" and popping smoke behind some decent cover just saved the marines in it an entire turn if not more of shooting. then the next turn, the have a 14 inch charge range! (2" for deployment, 6" for move, 6" for charge)

 

raptors: are *gasp* now the same as everyone elses (marines)! "OMG THEY'RE WORTHLESS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW 9 POINTS CHEAPER AND EFFECTIVELY JUST AS GOOD!!111one"

 

Chosen: can now take 4 special weapons, or 5 powerfists AND infiltrate... not worth thier points for 20 powerfist attacks on the charge!?

 

deamons: they CAN assault after deep striking, they just can't move. so throw a single undivided banner on a unit of marines in a rhino (because it works as a teleprt homer even in a rhino), drive 12", summon 6" away, and charge 6". thats a 24" effective first turn charge. complain about that. and oh yeah, they dont have power armour. they're t4 with a 5+ invul save for 2 points cheaper than a marine. did i mention 2 attacks base?

 

 

get over your loss, and tailor your army to the new codex. in failing with that, stop playing the game.

 

i'm sorry, but about 4 people have tried to help you out, and you've taken thier ideas and made an ass of yourself. yes, things changed. get over it.

[Brother Glacius]

***** You could always look at it this way. JJ is trying to make sure that the baseline balance for CSM is all good. Lets start with a foundation, and build from there. After a year of "external" playtesting, they'll release a Deamonic codex that I'm sure will have an impact on the current CSM codex.

 

I've never had a Chaos army of any kind before, but this latest book has actually gotten me to start buying an army because I like the Renegade angle. Remember that GW is in the business of selling models. If they had released CSM with the same old Legion stuff, then there's nothing new to get. This way, with a slight change in focus, they can bring more players to check out chaos, and eventually get back to the hard core stuff down the road.

 

Everything I have seen of the codex looks good from a new player point of view.

 

***** Brother Glacius

[Darkuwa]

How about also the fact that your lord will never be a Berzerker, Plague Marine or Noise Marine. Even though he's leading a whole army of them he can't be one himself.

 

I had tons of Blastmasters. Now I'll be lucky if I can use 1!

sorry

I too had Noise Marine bikes. GONE!

Bikers with mark of slaanesh

Converted Noise Marine termis with sonic blasters. GONE!

count them as twin linked bolters

Converted Predator with blastmaster. GONE!

autocanon

Twenty converted cultists for Alpha Marines. GONE!

use the loyalist marine list everyones been talking about and use the cultists as scouts

[redbeard]

Besides, WYSIWYG is more about not representing a HQ's plasma pistol with a bolt pistol because that can be confusing to the opponent. Since you can not field a blast master with a dreadnought, you can pick the weapon it most closely represents and say that's what it is. Whether or not that works in a RTT is something to call and ask about.

 

Right, I'll just convince my opponent that the blastmaster on the terminators is a reaper autocannon, the blastmaster on the dreadnought is a twin-linked lascannon, the blastmasters on the havoks are heavy bolters, and the blastmaster with the noise marines is... a blastmaster...

 

Sure, that's not confusing.

 

 

I've said it about 10 times in this thread. You are going to have to get used to the new codex formats. You can not compare the new codex armies with the old ones. Eventually those older codices will be redone and they will lose many of these tactical abilities you speak of. Every army done under the new format complains of the same exact things. Chaos just happened to be one fo the first on GW's list.

 

No other codex that has been redone has invalidated people's armies to nearly the extent that this new Chaos codex has.

 

The closest was how the White Scars lost their special rules, but you know what, they could still field their models.

 

In fact, none of the other 4th ed codexes have invalidated models from people's armies.

Tyranids: none of the older models are unusable with the new codex.

Eldar: Every model that was usable in 3rd ed is still usable, even if you played one of the craftworlds.

Marines: None of the marine models were invalidated with the new codex.

Tau: Every model from their 3rd ed book is still legal

 

But, if you played legion-based chaos, too bad for you. Some armies got it worse than others. Alpha Legion players have hordes of cultists that just don't fit anymore. Some IW players have basilisks that no longer have a place in the army. And, as I stated above, if you played a Emperor's Children Slaanesh Cult, forget it, because just about every model is no longer legal.

 

That's not complaining about how weak the new codex is. It's complaining that I cannot play my army anymore because they've made it so that most of my models are illegal. Is that something we are suposed to expect with each new codex from now on?

[Maeklos]

How about also the fact that your lord will never be a Berzerker, Plague Marine or Noise Marine. Even though he's leading a whole army of them he can't be one himself.

 

I had tons of Blastmasters. Now I'll be lucky if I can use 1!

sorry

I too had Noise Marine bikes. GONE!

Bikers with mark of slaanesh

Converted Noise Marine termis with sonic blasters. GONE!

count them as twin linked bolters

Converted Predator with blastmaster. GONE!

autocanon

Twenty converted cultists for Alpha Marines. GONE!

use the loyalist marine list everyones been talking about and use the cultists as scouts

 

Good points, Darkuwa. But the problem is that it turns what was once a costly (timewise and moneywise) tournament-worthy army into one that can no longer be used competitively. At all. It's no WYSIWYG at all, and has too many "counts as"s to work. Would be like bringing Tau to a tournament and called them a Space Marine chapter, with pulse rifles counting as bolter and pulse carbines as plasma guns. While it will work for friendly gaming, it won't pass muster for a tournament.

 

That's not complaining about how weak the new codex is. It's complaining that I cannot play my army anymore because they've made it so that most of my models are illegal. Is that something we are suposed to expect with each new codex from now on?

 

It's a business plan from GW so that Chaos players get pissed and start loyalist armies, and non-Chaos players get suckered by to start up a renegade Chaos DIY.

[Belger31]

Except that instead of making Chaos unexploitable, they made it even MORE exploitable. And took away the flavor, to boot. What's not cheesy about a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne and a Daemon Weapon on a Juggernaut and his 6+2D6 attacks of Doom? Or the possibility of a Sorceror Lord with Force Weapon and the Mark of Khorne? Or using that ol' Lash of Submission to round up people for the Vindicator Pieplates O' Doom?

 

What happened, rules-wise, is that instead of making Chaos exploitable, they turned it into the UberDeath Army of Doom. And then the fluff got slaughtered.

 

I've not noticed fluff getting lost in the new codices. They DA codex is at least 50% fluff. So hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

Whether they are more or less exploitable is up for debate. Those situations you pointed out require a lot of conditions to work out perfectly for it to pay off. Demon weapons will totaly screw you 1 out of 6 times, vindicators scatter, etc. 18 attacks sounds scary, but you can only kill what is within 2 inches of base to base so most will go to waste and thus it will be a waste of points to have that model. Nowadays a chaos player can highly customize his army list to efficiently exterminate his opponent. That is where the cheese lies in my mind. When I field Deathwing, I know exactly what a Slaneesh chaos army will field. It won't be noise marines. It will be tons of deamonettes and a deamon prince that flies, always goes first, and can totally deprive me of my terminator saves. That is exploitation.