The newest Chaos codex

[Iacton Qruze]

as far as the chosen, I wouldn't call 3 points prohibitively expensive. they cost less than any of the cult troops, and have the same options as the regular csm squads, plus additional options. the only drawback is the cost per model of an icon for them will be higher because the squad size is 5-10 instead of 5-20.

 

I can see where EC armies got hosed; they have unique weaponry. everyone else has a way around many of the new drawbacks.

 

Alpha Legion- if you need to use your cultist models, field them as lesser daemons, since there's no longer something saying what models you have to use for them.

 

You still have conversion opportunities, it's all about what matters- do you convert because it creates a cheese army, or do you convert because it makes people remember playing your army and it being "really well done".

[Maeklos]

I've not noticed fluff getting lost in the new codices. They DA codex is at least 50% fluff. So hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

I hope so, too. I bought the DA codex for just that reason. However, the fluff I'm talking about concerns things that have already been mentioned, things like why renegades are the same as 10,000-year-old veterans, why newly-turned renegades lack standard Astartes kit like Land Speeders, Librarians, and Chaplains, and so forth. It just doesn't make sense.

 

That is where the cheese lies in my mind. When I field Deathwing, I know exactly what a Slaneesh chaos army will field. It won't be noise marines. It will be tons of deamonettes and a deamon prince that flies, always goes first, and can totally deprive me of my terminator saves. That is exploitation.

 

That's not exploitation. That's utilizing a weakness.

 

On the flipside, is it exploitation if you use your Deathwing to Deep Strike into the middle of a shooty Imperial Guard army and slaughter them all while losing none in return? No...it's called building on your enemy's weakness.

 

Likewise, said daemonette-bomb army that you mentioned will get the Chaos-crap knocked out of it when facing a hard Grey Knight force.

 

Rock-paper-scissors. Know you're facing daemonettes and a daemon prince? Back up the Deathwing with other Dark Angel elements, like Ravenwing speeders or Dark Angels tac and support squads.

[Darkuwa]

Chosen. 5 man scuicide squad. 5 plasma guns, infiltrate into cover so you can move then double tap first turn.

[Maladon]

How to get into assault:

- cheap rhinos, tactically using their free smoke launchers and cover

- cheap land raiders with free smoke launchers and no need of cover

- deep striking

- summoning

- flying, tactically using cover

 

This is hardly a shooty army. Though, you can clearly take pressure off your assault transports by fielding heavy weapons of your own now. You may be outmatched against tyranids or orcs, but I'm pretty sure you'll hold your own against every other army. I personally can't wait to have a fleet defiler with 4 or 5 attacks.

 

Rhinos are cheap because they are a truly unreliable way to get your troops there. If rhino's were worth thier points, then no one would have abandoned them at the beginning of 4th ed (loyalist and csm alike).

 

The landraider has limited capacity to transport troops, and is still expensive (lost the deux ex) and has limited fire support potential.

 

Only raptors, terminators and daemons "deep strike" (summoning counts as deep strike now)

 

so, waiting for a deepstrike now, if everything shows up on turn 2 (unlikely) you can shoot, and have to wai the turn to do anything. So your expensive troops that came in from orbit spend a turn as template bait. still have to wait for turn 3 to do anything with them.

 

Defilers are only av12, and if you fleet you don't get to use your battle cannon. And for the points you pay, they are very worth it to target. I will be interested to see how you feel about your defilers after playtesting them.

 

Daemons are csm's without a +3 save and can't charge when they come in.

 

So the awnser to "how to field a dedicated assault chaos army?" is add heavy weapons. this doesnt strike you as an oxymoron? Where am i going to get the choices to field those heavy weapons if i have to buy 3 land raiders to move my (10 man at best) squad?

 

edit: @Night Stalker anywhere from 6 to 16 pieces on a 6x4 board

 

Obviously you haven't read the new dex yet, Obliterators can deep strike! Try actually reading the codex before you misquote it. You might actually learn something!

[Maeklos]

Obviously you haven't read the new dex yet, Obliterators can deep strike! Try actually reading the codex before you misquote it. You might actually learn something!

 

The fact that Obliterators can Deep Strike doesn't really contradict any of his points, and is no cause for trolling...

[victorybyattrition]

So, here's a question. How do you recognize this tactical excellence (as well as the Alpha Legion's penchant for surprise attacks, covert operations, and disguise) on the tabletop since they now play exactly the same and can field exactly the same as every other Chaos force out there?

 

The same way you do with games like chess or go (games known to be mastered by those with exceptional tactical minds).

[Belger31]

I hope so, too. I bought the DA codex for just that reason. However, the fluff I'm talking about concerns things that have already been mentioned, things like why renegades are the same as 10,000-year-old veterans, why newly-turned renegades lack standard Astartes kit like Land Speeders, Librarians, and Chaplains, and so forth. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Well, making sense was abandoned when you theme an army around chaos, lol. Besides, C:SM needs to have it's own toys so I just ignore what "makes sense" in the spirit of fair play.

 

Librarians = Sorcerers

Chaplains = Demon Princes

Techmarines = Obliterators

Land Speeders = These went away when your techmarines were lost. Chaos vehicles run off of deamon possession, not the blessings of the machine god.

 

That's not exploitation. That's utilizing a weakness.

 

On the flipside, is it exploitation if you use your Deathwing to Deep Strike into the middle of a shooty Imperial Guard army and slaughter them all while losing none in return? No...it's called building on your enemy's weakness.

 

Likewise, said daemonette-bomb army that you mentioned will get the Chaos-crap knocked out of it when facing a hard Grey Knight force.

 

You're right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe you can exploit weaknesses any more with the new codex than with the last one.

[Maeklos]

You're right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe you can exploit weaknesses any more with the new codex than with the last one.

 

Which leads me to my point - the changes in the codex seem to have been brought about with the intention of making Chaos less exploitable. As you said, that didn't happen. And in addition, Chaos lost its unique variety of flavor.

 

So, it lost quite a bit of variety in return for no appreciable gain. Hardcore cheesetastic powergamers will still have their uber possibilities, people who want to field renegade warbands without using C:SM can do so, and a large portion of people who built armies under the previous 'dex get shafted.

[Gree]

I hope so, too. I bought the DA codex for just that reason. However, the fluff I'm talking about concerns things that have already been mentioned, things like why renegades are the same as 10,000-year-old veterans, why newly-turned renegades lack standard Astartes kit like Land Speeders, Librarians, and Chaplains, and so forth. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Well, making sense was abandoned when you theme an army around chaos, lol. Besides, C:SM needs to have it's own toys so I just ignore what "makes sense" in the spirit of fair play.

 

Librarians = Sorcerers

Chaplains = Demon Princes

Techmarines = Obliterators

Land Speeders = These went away when your techmarines were lost. Chaos vehicles run off of deamon possession, not the blessings of the machine god.

 

That's not exploitation. That's utilizing a weakness.

 

On the flipside, is it exploitation if you use your Deathwing to Deep Strike into the middle of a shooty Imperial Guard army and slaughter them all while losing none in return? No...it's called building on your enemy's weakness.

 

Likewise, said daemonette-bomb army that you mentioned will get the Chaos-crap knocked out of it when facing a hard Grey Knight force.

 

You're right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe you can exploit weaknesses any more with the new codex than with the last one.

 

 

Your're joking right?

 

2 Slannesh sorcerers plus a bunch of khorne bezerkers and thousand sons. Lash of submission form two sorcerers will lure people out into the charge and rapid fire range of those two units. That's jsut oen of those lists. I can go on and on.

 

 

There is nothign stopping you from making an Undivided Legion using the new codex. Cult Legions are a diffrent ball game.

 

Emperor's Children

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer, Lucius

Elites - All w/ mark or icon of Slaanesh

Troops - Noise Marines & CSM w/ icon of Slaanesh

Fast Attack - All w/ icon of Slaanesh

Heavy Support - All w/ icon of Slaanesh

Non-Foc - Greater Daemon, Lesser Daemon, Spawns

 

Iron Warriors

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer

Elites - All

Troops - CSM, cult troopers as "counts as" cybernetic troopers if you like

Fast Attack - All

Heavy Support - All

Non-Foc - Daemons don't fit too well with IW, but they theoretically could have a guy that summons them. Spawns would be useful for cool technological craziness-- chaos robots, if you will.

 

Night Lords

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer

Elites - All

Troops - CSM

Fast Attack - All (and lots)

Heavy Support - All

Non-Foc - lesser daemons

 

Death Guard

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer, Typhus

Elites - All w/ Icon of Nurgle

Troops - CSM w/ icon of nurgle, Plague Marines

Fast Attack - all w/ Icon of Nurgle

Heavy Support - All w/ Icon of Nurgle

Non-Foc -- All. Nurglings as either lesser daemons or as spawns?

 

Thousand Sons

 

HQ - DP, Sorcerer, Ahriman

Elites - Dreads (Terminators don't have rubric rules - not a lot suitable)

Troops - Thousand Sons

Fast Attack - Not a lot suitable

Heavy Support - All the vehicles.

Non-Foc - All

 

Word Bearers

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Sorcerer

Elites - All

Troops - CSM

Fast Attack - All

Heavy Support - All

Non-FoC - All

 

Note: This army should have access to cultists as they are very interested in spreading the worship of Chaos.

 

Alpha Legion

 

HQ - Lord, Sorcerer (DP isn't that fluffy, but you could)

Elites - Chosen (lots), Terminators (less)

Troops - CSM

Fast Attack - All

Heavy Support - All

Non-Foc - Not too many.

 

Note - this army should have non-marine recruits (cultists) as they are very interested in infiltrating Imperial society

 

World Eaters

 

HQ - DP, Lord, Khârn

Elites - All w/ icon of Khorne

Troops - Berzerkers, CSM w/ Icon of Khorne

Fast Attack - All w/ Icon of Khorne

Heavy - All w/ Icon of Khorne

non-FoC - All

 

 

 

Why does the EC lords not get sonic weaponry? Why does only Lucius get them? Did he steal all of the doom sirens? If a DG lord who is the leader of the warband of plauge marines does not get FNP even thought he has worshipped Nurgle for 10k years along with his subordiants? When EC become chosen do they just trade in there sonic weaponry for an incon?

 

This list is a renagades list. It replesents a recently turned tratior chapter with some backup support from the older Cult legions. Trying to play cult legions with this list is just Black Legion in red or pink.

[Belger31]

Your're joking right?

 

2 Slannesh sorcerers plus a bunch of khorne bezerkers and thousand sons. Lash of submission form two sorcerers will lure people out into the charge and rapid fire range of those two units. That's jsut oen of those lists. I can go on and on.

 

Sounds like a good tactic that will work a couple times before people get wise to it. At least it requires tactical coordination among a number of units rather than you just building one super unit like the current codex allows.

[Gree]

Your're joking right?

 

2 Slannesh sorcerers plus a bunch of khorne bezerkers and thousand sons. Lash of submission form two sorcerers will lure people out into the charge and rapid fire range of those two units. That's jsut oen of those lists. I can go on and on.

 

Sounds like a good tactic that will work a couple times before people get wise to it. At least it requires tactical coordination among a number of units rather than you just building one super unit like the current codex allows.

 

That;s what they said about the old iron warriors list. :D

[BloodRed]

deamons: they CAN assault after deep striking, they just can't move. so throw a single undivided banner on a unit of marines in a rhino (because it works as a teleprt homer even in a rhino), drive 12", summon 6" away, and charge 6". thats a 24" effective first turn charge.

 

To be fair, I don't think you can do that. They come in as reserves, so I think they come in before the movement phase. But you can still plunk them down 6 inches away with no scatter and then assault 6 inches.

 

Also, reserves don't come in on turn 1, so there's no way to get that "first turn charge" with them.

[Aarhus]

Yes all the csm's have close combat weapons and (now this is the important part) NO WAY TO GET THERE! It would take a standard chaos marine (at best) 3 turns to get there. In that time you would be shot to pieces. It doesnt matter how many attacks you have if you never get there.

 

Aww muffin. Now you're going to have to walk or drive up the table like everyone else! :lol:

 

Also, I don't know about you, but I utilize ways to reduce incoming fire as much as possible. Two items: Cover (the stuff you (hopefully) put on the table before you deploy), and Mobile Cover (the "omg y wuld i by tihs younit11//" entries, such as rhinos, land raiders et al.)

 

Use rhinos to plug gaps in cover so you can advance much more safely, so when you do reach assault, you still have numbers!

 

After all, if you were able to get into assault on turn 2 (or the idiotic first turn charge) what would be the effing point in playing Guard or Tau?

 

Raptors are now just csm's with jump packs, and are expensive enough that a useful sized unit is prohibitively expensive (in dollars as well a points).

 

You're kidding. You have to be :D kidding. Raptors prohibitively expensive!? Now, ANYONE can take them, and per-model, they're NINE POINTS CHEAPER. How were you able to have a "useful sized unit" before? If it were 10 men, then you paid 90pts more then you would now. Today, those 90pts you save buys you 2 more raptors AND a banner of nurgle, therefore making your unit T5.

This part of your statement makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

the "chosen" are now only csm's with infiltrate, and in case you are wonderng, the reason people have been infiltrating 16 and 18 man squads is because 10 men almost never make it there with enough of them intact to do anything useful.

 

Again, I never relied on the Infiltration crutch, because I knew that at some point in time, I wouldn't be able to use it.

So it was either wait until the last possible minute, then froth at the mouth when I couldn't use my "crutch" anymore, or learn to "walk" again and drop the crutch long before the new codex came out and I'd be fine without it.

 

Also, the Infiltration rule was horribly abused in many senses. Infiltrate made shooting based armies that much harder to play, because for 120pts (in say, a 2000pt army), there would be 40 marines that were that much closer to you.

Even worse, there were the goobs who used the Infiltrate/D.Speed combination, which made me hate the game of Warhammer 40k for a couple months when that fad was in.

 

How did you plan to get your berzerkers to combat? Rhino or walk, those are your options. The rhino has been collecting dust since the advent of 4th ed, and 3 turns of shooting against them will turn them to pulp.

 

Again, I learned to use rhinos not as transports 100% of the time. Hide your units behind a wall of rhinos on the first turn.

Those units whose rhinos were not destroyed, pile in, drive forward 12" and pop smoke. 2nd turn, drive 12" further forward then make yet another wall with your rhinos, and pile out behind it.

 

The only way you'll lose anyone is if your opponent gets a glancing 6, and if you have enough rhinos with enough units inside, then there'll be plenty of marines to get into combat!

 

If you're REALLY paranoid about that god-awful glancing 6, then don't even bother getting in, but still use the rhinos as mobile cover, making it so that 4 man plasma cannon Dev squad does NOT have line of site to any part of your army, other than rhinos.

 

Quite simple, really.

 

I own 6 rhino chassis, and I'm looking for at least another 5.

 

If khorne couldn't walk fast enough with fleet, what makes you think having them go slower will do you any better? It is more points effective to have your army shoot that assault now, even with khorne.

 

Because it was SO much fun when you ran as fast as you could! (towards a land speeder that was behind your lines.)

 

The basic trooper will not see assault unless your enemy comes to you, and given that shooting seems to be dominating 4th, it wont be happening much. in a few months, the question will be asked "why do csm's have ccws? they don't use them."

 

 

Don't forget, there's only so far your opponent can run to.

If you choose not to use transports or raptors, that's your loss.

 

 

Personally, I believe the new chaos codex is even more powerful in assault than before.

Sure I miss having D.Strength on my champions, but for 15pts, I could get a S5 power weapon with 4, maybe 5, perhaps even 6 attacks on the charge! (depending on mutation, MoK). It was TOO much of a bargain, and I wish I still had it, at a greater pts cost, but altogether, it's not so bad.

 

 

Cheers,

Lawrence.

[Ashrubeal]

with respect to the alpha legion players out there. if you wish to use cultists im sure that otherthan in grand tournuments casual players wouldnt mind you using the cultist rules from the previous codex, just ask before you play. or you can use the lost and the damned traitor guardsmen, which again casual players wouldnt mind you using.

 

this is just a thought

[Maeklos]

with respect to the alpha legion players out there. if you wish to use cultists im sure that otherthan in grand tournuments casual players wouldnt mind you using the cultist rules from the previous codex, just ask before you play. or you can use the lost and the damned traitor guardsmen, which again casual players wouldnt mind you using.

 

this is just a thought

 

Or, as I said, use C:SM and have the cultists act as scouts. Or, likewise, base your army around Codex: Imperial Guard, and take "Space Marine" allies in the form of Alpha Legion marine squads, etc.

 

Of course, the Eye of Terror book is free...but since it's so old, it may not be valid in some circles.

[Ashrubeal]

i suppose, all i know is that most casual players probably would going by my experiences. im sort of planning a horus heresy campaign in my local. ive even gone through the troubles of writing primarch rules for all 18 legions. and the gys at my local think it would be kind of fun to play

[Brother SRM]

read through the chaos codex. not bad, looks like it cut down on some of the cheese from the last one (those uber-princes were KILLING me) but still seems rather viable. i look forward to playing against it or with it in the future.

[Maladon]

Obviously you haven't read the new dex yet, Obliterators can deep strike! Try actually reading the codex before you misquote it. You might actually learn something!

 

The fact that Obliterators can Deep Strike doesn't really contradict any of his points, and is no cause for trolling...

 

Who's trolling, he's been berating this codex and others who happen to like the new dex... To me it just weakness on his part for lack of tactics that don't require cheese power gaming.... Myself I been playing this game since Second edition back when there was no legion specific rules and I certainly didn't whine about not having my min/max las/plas squads or my infiltrating whatever... or berating the fact that Ihpo that chaos lacks any real close combat troops what so ever...

 

Also I'm 10-0 with the new Dark Angels codex....

 

 

 

Tactics wins games not the army lists....

 

This is my final post on this thread... before it comes to a point of outright flaming.

[Brother Nihm]

This is a kind reminder to everyone.

Please keep the discussion civil.

[Black and White]

Well, making sense was abandoned when you theme an army around chaos, lol. Besides, C:SM needs to have it's own toys so I just ignore what "makes sense" in the spirit of fair play.

 

Librarians = Sorcerers

Chaplains = Demon Princes

Techmarines = Obliterators

Land Speeders = These went away when your techmarines were lost. Chaos vehicles run off of deamon possession, not the blessings of the machine god.

 

Chaplains = demon princes?? Yes this makes perfect sense... However I fall in the camp of renegades wouldn't have chaplains anyways.

Techmarines = obliterators?... No one knows -where- the obliterators came from. There are rumors, not fact. This relation is pretty much you talking out of your arse.

Land speeders = again, who says techmarines were lost? IIRC, abbadon's cheif tech (hmm.. sounds like a techmarine to me..) who worked on the orginal dreadnought tech, built the defiler. Chaos techmarines exist, especially in legions like the IW. Not all chaos vehicles run of deamonic possession, not all renegades even follow the gods, this is no excuse for not having speeders.

[BrotherHostower]

Land speeders are notoriously hard to maintain (they're not like Rhino's, the volkswagon's of the future). Renegades can attribute their lost gear to wear and tear. Just read the Souldrinkers books. A chapter "recently" turned renegade, plenty of chaos with no chaos worship, and none of the newer space marine accoutrements. No SM chapter goes rogue without losses, if they are even able to (many are simply annihilated by agents of the Inquisition, or other SM chapters.)

[Megalodon]

Except now, as I've said repeatedly, the Alpha Legion plays out exactly as every other Chaos army.

As the Alpha Legion did in Second edition and the 3.0 codex. This variety thing is a relatively new concept and unfortunately GW has decided it was a bad idea.

 

 

I've said it about 10 times in this thread. You are going to have to get used to the new codex formats. You can not compare the new codex armies with the old ones.

I can and will, there were no tweaked out lists for any of the chaos legions in the 2nd ed codex or the 3.0 codex. As Chaos players we have been spoiled by the 3.5 codex with all of it's special rules and ridiculous Wargear list.

 

I do feel really bad for those cult players who have had lots of wonderfully converted models invalidated, but unfortunately GW decided to change the style of the Chaos forces and streamline out the cults and legions. They are gone and there is only one hope of getting some part of the legion rules back; send GW a letter.

 

Send a real letter (snail mail) to the Games Development team, they cannot just delete them as they could an email. Be reasonable and considerate in your letter; they will ignore it if it is not considerate. Explain your concerns thoroughly, offer reasonable possibilities for fixing the problem. They do read and respond to well written letters.

[Black and White]

Land speeders are notoriously hard to maintain (they're not like Rhino's, the volkswagon's of the future). Renegades can attribute their lost gear to wear and tear. Just read the Souldrinkers books. A chapter "recently" turned renegade, plenty of chaos with no chaos worship, and none of the newer space marine accoutrements. No SM chapter goes rogue without losses, if they are even able to (many are simply annihilated by agents of the Inquisition, or other SM chapters.)

 

Soul drinkers are an exception. While none of the novels were particularly fluffy or sensical, they were a chapter who's doctrine centered around boarding actions. They barely had heavy weapons and were never described as using tanks even BEFORE they went renegade.

 

How many chapters are fleet based? A chapter's fleet should house all the facilities needed for the marines to operate for an extended period of time. As long as they have their techmarines, their equipment would be maintainable. Again, they can steal/trade/loot the parts they would need.

 

What about things like whirlwinds that aren't hard to maintain? Or how do renegade termis lose the much more common storm bolter for millenia old heresy era twin-bolters? How exactly would they manufacture a reaper autocannon when space marines don't feild autocannon's to begin with? Considering ALL their enemies would carry storm bolters, it's a relatively common peice of kit for space marines, and held by guard officers and on many of their vehiciles. PLUS are you going to tell me, a simple storm bolter can't be maintained? Im sure they could probably trade with the legions or get chaos forge world manufactured twin bolters, but then the question rises, why would you trade your newer model gear for its much older protoype? I guess space marines are incapable of clearing a jam on their assault cannon or keeping up simple kit like storm bolters then? Odd, as marines are described as being extremely proficient with their weaponry and go over them on a regular basis.

 

IMO the 'focusing on renegades' excuse is obviously untrue due to their lack of newer equipment. Post a few pictures of newly turned marines to make it look like we weren't lying, then take away all their legion rules because of the new 'focus.'

[Freman Bloodglaive]

You do have a point.

 

Recent renegade forces would use Codex Space Marines.

 

However I too was playing this game in second edition (albeit right at the end) and the "variety" of the version 3.5 Codex did not exist then for any race (except maybe Eldar and their tooled up Exarch of Doom and two turn annhilation army, don't ask it wasn't a happy time).

 

You had a Lord option, who was identical to the Marine equivalent. Characters who were more or less just marines with spikes, terminators that were different (combi-weapons and single lightning claws woot) that could get a 2+ save on 2D6 if you gave them the mark of Khorne. Marines who were marines with spikes... basically they weren't that different to what you have now.

 

Version 3.5 was an exception to the general conformity of Chaos.

 

At least now you get WS6 Lords.

[OverchargeThis!]

Lash of SUbmission is pretty easy to counter with a combination of psychic hood and mechanized infantry. NEither is perfect, but the combination easily negates any early game advantage the Chaos player would have.

 

I think it's broken, still. But the bigger issue is that chaos as well as its opponents will tend to build army lists with lash in mind, making the bigger broken aspect the metagame.