The newest Chaos codex

[Belger31]

Chaplains = demon princes?? Yes this makes perfect sense... However I fall in the camp of renegades wouldn't have chaplains anyways.

Techmarines = obliterators?... No one knows -where- the obliterators came from. There are rumors, not fact. This relation is pretty much you talking out of your arse.

Land speeders = again, who says techmarines were lost? IIRC, abbadon's cheif tech (hmm.. sounds like a techmarine to me..) who worked on the orginal dreadnought tech, built the defiler. Chaos techmarines exist, especially in legions like the IW. Not all chaos vehicles run of deamonic possession, not all renegades even follow the gods, this is no excuse for not having speeders.

 

Dude, its not a literal translation. It's just a rough comparison of army lists. Any player who is interested in the spirit of competition has to acknowledge that there would be no point in playing C:SM if C:CSM had everything they had and then some. That's just greedy and that's what makes threads like this a joke. Cheese mongers who just say MORE, MORE, MORE under the veil of "fluff" ruin it for everyone else!

 

Here was my point (FYI, not a power for power, stat for stat comparison):

Librarians = Sorcerors - Yes, both psycher HQ types

Chaplain = Demon Princes - Yes, both fanatic HQ types

Techs = Oblits - Yes, both heavy armored multi-weapon types (BTW my arse speaks the truth, straight from the GW website: "Often once Techmarines of the Emperor's Space Marines, Obliterators are obsessed with the overlap of the material and immaterial, the organic and the inert." http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/cha...literators.htm)

Land speeders = Nothing - There is nothing that compares. Be happy you have defilers, demons, spawn, possessed, etc.

[Azza007]

Chaplains = demon princes?? Yes this makes perfect sense... However I fall in the camp of renegades wouldn't have chaplains anyways.

Techmarines = obliterators?... No one knows -where- the obliterators came from. There are rumors, not fact. This relation is pretty much you talking out of your arse.

Land speeders = again, who says techmarines were lost? IIRC, abbadon's cheif tech (hmm.. sounds like a techmarine to me..) who worked on the orginal dreadnought tech, built the defiler. Chaos techmarines exist, especially in legions like the IW. Not all chaos vehicles run of deamonic possession, not all renegades even follow the gods, this is no excuse for not having speeders.

 

Dude, its not a literal translation. It's just a rough comparison of army lists. Any player who is interested in the spirit of competition has to acknowledge that there would be no point in playing C:SM if C:CSM had everything they had and then some. That's just greedy and that's what makes threads like this a joke. Cheese mongers who just say MORE, MORE, MORE under the veil of "fluff" ruin it for everyone else!

 

Here was my point (FYI, not a power for power, stat for stat comparison):

Librarians = Sorcerors - Yes, both psycher HQ types

Chaplain = Demon Princes - Yes, both fanatic HQ types

Techs = Oblits - Yes, both heavy armored multi-weapon types

Land speeders = Nothing - There is nothing that compares. Be happy you have defilers, demons, spawn, possessed, etc.

 

 

In the new codex, it states that many of the Techs did in fact become Obliterators, though the only ones to keep Chaplains were the Word Bearers. I think they lost out in the new codex as they could no longer take them.

[AkiraCho]

this comparison where i can see how you would see them, they are also VASTLY differant as characters on the table, and i dont think any chaos player is looking for MORE MORE MORE as yous say, we are looking for differant, we are all willing to make the sacrafice of numbers for individuality like in 3.5 instead of 5 pts for a mark back in 3.5 they made it a new unit type for just troops, fine! make it 8 pts more hell make it 10 pts more and id still do it in the name of the death guard.

 

they have made us so closely like loyalists now that it scares me. and just remember we still dont have land speeders, cheap effective killing machines, every single of of them. so you cant really complain.

 

they took out one of the things that made the chaos legions truely special and replaced it with some generic jargin. "here are some GENERIC DEMONS!!!"

 

its a shame what they did to angels as well, they are just loyalists that can break up squads, how stupid is that.

[Stella Cadente]

though the only ones to keep Chaplains were the Word Bearers. I think they lost out in the new codex as they could no longer take them.

 

However you can easily count a Chaos lord as one, just give him something that looks like a cursed crozius, put some dark scrolls and stuff on him, and bobs your uncle, fluffwise and model wise you have yourself a chaplain.

[Maeklos]

they took out one of the things that made the chaos legions truely special and replaced it with some generic jargin. "here are some GENERIC DEMONS!!!"

 

I'm going to call my "generic daemons" the Spirits of the Damned and model them all as Dreadnoughts, Wraithlords, greater daemons, and Daemon Princes.

 

I don't know anyone who's not going to wet themself when they see 20 Bloodthirsters pop out of an icon, even if those Bloodthirsters have the stats of a grot.

[Belger31]

this comparison where i can see how you would see them, they are also VASTLY differant as characters on the table, and i dont think any chaos player is looking for MORE MORE MORE as yous say, we are looking for differant, we are all willing to make the sacrafice of numbers for individuality like in 3.5 instead of 5 pts for a mark back in 3.5 they made it a new unit type for just troops, fine! make it 8 pts more hell make it 10 pts more and id still do it in the name of the death guard.

 

they have made us so closely like loyalists now that it scares me. and just remember we still dont have land speeders, cheap effective killing machines, every single of of them. so you cant really complain.

 

they took out one of the things that made the chaos legions truely special and replaced it with some generic jargin. "here are some GENERIC DEMONS!!!"

 

its a shame what they did to angels as well, they are just loyalists that can break up squads, how stupid is that.

 

I disagree, I'm hearing people saying they want land speeders, techmarines, whirlwinds, razorbacks, assault cannons, and so on. Apparently its not enough to have greater deamons, lesser deamons, defilers, possessed marines, chaos spawn, obliterators, demon princes, reaper autocannons, and the like. Why stop at marine units? Why not ask for baneblades, leman russ, or basalisks? Oh wait, some chaos players want basalisks too. Some people will never be satisfied no matter what.

[Black and White]

In the new codex, it states that many of the Techs did in fact become Obliterators, though the only ones to keep Chaplains were the Word Bearers. I think they lost out in the new codex as they could no longer take them.

 

 

Even if they DID come from techmarines, the rarity of obliterators vs. rarity of techmarines per chapter would tend to imply nowhere near ALL of the techmarines became obliterators.

 

DP != chaplain. I don't see how you can stretch this. DPs are not especially fanatical. I don't see them with rosarius' or giving squad's re-rolls, leadership boosts, or anything of the type. A DP is simply a chaos champion who has won enough favour from the gods to be granted deamonhood.

 

I disagree, I'm hearing people saying they want land speeders, techmarines, whirlwinds, razorbacks, assault cannons, and so on. Apparently its not enough to have greater deamons, lesser deamons, defilers, possessed marines, chaos spawn, obliterators, demon princes, reaper autocannons, and the like. Why stop at marine units? Why not ask for baneblades, leman russ, or basalisks? Oh wait, some chaos players want basalisks too. Some people will never be satisfied no matter what.

 

If they're going to pull this renegades crap (they really SHOULD be based of C:SM) instead of the legions, then they SHOULD by all means have that equipment. Having newly turned marines running around withheresy era equipment (likely manufactured thousands of years before their creation) is moronical at best, especially considering how they had better equipment to begin with.

[Iacton Qruze]

I'm seeing a lot of complaints about them not having storm bolters. I don't think it will matter, since any of them can trade in for a combi-weapon right off from the get go. On top of that, the TDA entry was revised in the codex so that they can shoot rapid fire weapons and then assault. So ultimately, you're losing one shot per guy that would have a storm bolter. I'm sad about my lost chance of getting a rending weapon other than *potentially* possessed, but when you can give the entire squad a one-off melta shot for a third the cost of a standard trooper each, do you really want long range firepower from you termies that badly?

 

for just over 100 points, you can field deep striking melta teams to drop in behind tanks. Kill a heavy tank, and it's paid for itself if it comes under a hail of fire. If they don't die, run off and hit small units with the PWs and bolters or sneak off to steal corners or objectives, since you basically have to kill the whole unit to keep it under 50%.

 

Each melta termie is still less than a basic loyalist termie.

 

 

If you don't like the fluff anymore, make your own. It's part of the hobby, and nothing is really canon anymore anyway, since they change crap all the time.

[Black and White]

I'm seeing a lot of complaints about them not having storm bolters. I don't think it will matter, since any of them can trade in for a combi-weapon right off from the get go. On top of that, the TDA entry was revised in the codex so that they can shoot rapid fire weapons and then assault. So ultimately, you're losing one shot per guy that would have a storm bolter. I'm sad about my lost chance of getting a rending weapon other than *potentially* possessed, but when you can give the entire squad a one-off melta shot for a third the cost of a standard trooper each, do you really want long range firepower from you termies that badly?

 

for just over 100 points, you can field deep striking melta teams to drop in behind tanks. Kill a heavy tank, and it's paid for itself if it comes under a hail of fire. If they don't die, run off and hit small units with the PWs and bolters or sneak off to steal corners or objectives, since you basically have to kill the whole unit to keep it under 50%.

 

Each melta termie is still less than a basic loyalist termie.

 

 

If you don't like the fluff anymore, make your own. It's part of the hobby, and nothing is really canon anymore anyway, since they change crap all the time.

 

Storm bolter vs. combi bolter in game terms makes little difference. Storm bolter is ~50% better at range, combi bolter is ~25% better while double tapping (in terms of hits). Regardless, gw should have given termies storm bolters and AC instead of combi's and the RAC if they were trying to represent renegades. That's the point.

[Belger31]

DP != chaplain. I don't see how you can stretch this. DPs are not especially fanatical. I don't see them with rosarius' or giving squad's re-rolls, leadership boosts, or anything of the type. A DP is simply a chaos champion who has won enough favour from the gods to be granted deamonhood.

 

I explained that I'm not making direct comparisons already. I'm just saying that they are comparable units whether you wish to accept that or not.

 

If they're going to pull this renegades crap (they really SHOULD be based of C:SM) instead of the legions, then they SHOULD by all means have that equipment. Having newly turned marines running around withheresy era equipment (likely manufactured thousands of years before their creation) is moronical at best, especially considering how they had better equipment to begin with.

 

Gee, for a bunch of people who complain that they're not unique enough, you sure do complain about not having the exact same things as C:SM players do. No they should not have that equipment. For multiple reasons.

 

1) From a game play perspective, it would unbalance the game. Chaos would be far more flexible than Imperial marines. I'm sure you understand this and are just choosing to ignore it.

2) Some of this equipment just isn't chaos' style. Examples:

- Whirlwinds are not up close and personal enough for chaos. Vindicators I can see.

- Land Speeders could have many explanations. They are too maintenance heavy. Not enough tech priests to justify maintaining a fleet of them. This weapons can not sufficiently strike fear into an enemy. The gods provide reasonable substitutes.

- Meltas and flamers are preferred at short range over assault cannons. They too are maintenance heavy. Besides, before 4th edition nobody was complaining about this because AC's were junk.

3) Players are pouting because they don't like the new codex and are trying to find a way to invalidate it.

[Black and White]

DP != chaplain. I don't see how you can stretch this. DPs are not especially fanatical. I don't see them with rosarius' or giving squad's re-rolls, leadership boosts, or anything of the type. A DP is simply a chaos champion who has won enough favour from the gods to be granted deamonhood.

 

I explained that I'm not making direct comparisons already. I'm just saying that they are comparable units whether you wish to accept that or not.

 

If they're going to pull this renegades crap (they really SHOULD be based of C:SM) instead of the legions, then they SHOULD by all means have that equipment. Having newly turned marines running around withheresy era equipment (likely manufactured thousands of years before their creation) is moronical at best, especially considering how they had better equipment to begin with.

 

Gee, for a bunch of people who complain that they're not unique enough, you sure do complain about not having the exact same things as C:SM players do. No they should not have that equipment. For multiple reasons.

 

1) From a game play perspective, it would unbalance the game. Chaos would be far more flexible than Imperial marines. I'm sure you understand this and are just choosing to ignore it.

2) Some of this equipment just isn't chaos' style. Examples:

- Whirlwinds are not up close and personal enough for chaos. Vindicators I can see.

- Land Speeders could have many explanations. They are too maintenance heavy. Not enough tech priests to justify maintaining a fleet of them. This weapons can not sufficiently strike fear into an enemy. The gods provide reasonable substitutes.

- Meltas and flamers are preferred at short range over assault cannons. They too are maintenance heavy. Besides, before 4th edition nobody was complaining about this because AC's were junk.

3) Players are pouting because they don't like the new codex and are trying to find a way to invalidate it.

 

Renegades should essentially be regular space marines with a few chaos toys and some number restrictions. They arent.

Chaos legions should be at least as divergent from the black legion list as the dark angels are from the space marine list. They arent.

 

Two fails on two accounts.

[Maeklos]

Renegades should essentially be regular space marines with a few chaos toys and some number restrictions. They arent.

 

The Relictors are a good example of this, being a loyal Chapter that's been declared Hereticus.

 

After all, keep in mind the beaurocracy of the Imperium. The alliance between the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't mitigated by the Munitorum. Therefore, any writ delivered by the Inquisition excommunicating a Chapter would take decades, centuries, or millennia to filter through the levels of beaurocracy then pass to the Mechanicus who will investigate it and make their own decisions, THEN decide on whether to act on it or not.

 

So to say, "teh renegades ain't got Land Speeders 'cause they ain't easy ta fix, dur hur hur!" doesn't make sense, as for a while (possible hundreds or thousands of years) after a Chapter turns to Chaos or goes rogue, they'll still be able to draw supplies from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

[Brother Pete]

I am an Eldar player who happens to also own a loyalist space marine army and i have to say that i fell very sorry indeed for CSM players.

 

One of the hallmarks of the 4th ed codicies was a largely successful attempt to make all of the options in a list viable and for players to be able to choose an army theme without feeling that they were sacrificing effectiveness.

 

Although each list has a "hard build" the new lists contained fewer "duff" units that no'one would want to take.

 

Gav has really failed to deliver on this in the new CSM codex. The list has 5 or 6 no brainer choices

 

Lash/Wing Demon Price

Chosen

Cult Marines

Termies

Oblits

Vinicators

Raptors

 

The rest of the units are poor by comparision

 

The Chaos lord with no retinue

The spawn with random movement and no armour save

The generic demons with only 2 weak attacks and no weapons

The Dreadnought that cant choose what it shoots at

The possessed, who roll for their special ability after deployment

The havocs, whos heavy weapons are so eye-wateringly expensive you will never take them

The bikers with only one attack

 

Reminds me very much of the 3rd ed Eldar codex. You Could have taken units of Jetbikes, Dire Avengers, Wraithguard, Fire Prisms and support platforms but then why would you?

 

You lot have been thoroughly stitched.

 

You have my deepest sympathy (I mean that most sincerely).

[Maeklos]

For a good eyefull of a battle report using the "New and Improved, Non-Cheese, Fluff-filled Chaos Codex", go here.

[mannstein]

I've been lucky enough to be able to study the codex, and I don't have to like it, seeing as how I don't work for GW.

 

I like some parts: It will produce very good tourney level Undivided/unmarked lists, provided you can accept the huge holes in the fluff.

 

Example: why is the emphasis on renegades rather than the established legions? Given the average numbers involved (200 astral claws/ red corsairs) for example, if there were as many renegades as they are suggesting there would be hardly any loyalist marines left.... and the fluff pre EoT indicated that the Iron Warriors stole enough geneseed to build a legions' worth of warriors. Did they all emerge from the pod and go... "nah, I don't want to follow him, I don't like that guy, I'm gonna form a new warband..."

 

Example: Slaanesh lord leading Khorne Berzerkers??? Oh dear gods NO! :verymad:

 

IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!

 

But now, apparently, its normal... :woot:

 

And of course, the way the new marks work is just stupid.

 

"Right, I've got this banner that gives us the blessing of nurgle for today, chaps, just don't drop it..."

"Why, sarge?"

"Coz I don't want to die of the pox when you get killed, is why..."

 

Oh dear..

 

Basically, the whole Icon/mark system is a pathetic joke that goes against all the fluff established in the GW pantheon. Even in fantasy, which is obviously the inspiration for it, is the banner bearer dies his mate pick it up. No such joys here... each unit now has the equivalent of an army standard in its midst. Now, it appears that if you kill the banner bearer (honoured by a god, a worshipper of the god, fanatical enough to carry his gods mark) and he gets himself killed, his mates (just as fanatical, just as devoted, carrying the same mark) can't pick up the totem of their own god and as a result lose their gods favour?! :)

 

I play Death Guard. My army has been beat.

 

Why?

 

Let me explain.

 

The Death Guard options in the codex consist of: Typhus (who I loathe), Plaguemarines and vehicles.

 

That's it.

 

I can't run DG havocs, termies, characters, or daemons, because these units now don't exist.

I can substitute "marines with hygiene trouble" for the termies (right lads, we've got these new guys with us today, lets give the cool stuff to them to prove what nice guys we are.. :rolleyes: ) and havocs, but they are not plaguemarines. I can have a nurgle marked lord, but not a plaguemarine lord. Pathetic.

 

This goes totally against everything that the fluff has been for 20 years and more, which I find pitiful. The "cool" new toys I can run (if they were fluffy.. DG bikes? Gimme a break) do not make up for the drivel they have served up this time. I wouldn't mind the nerfage if it was consistent with the fluff, but it appears because a minority of vocal whiners have had their asses handed to them at GTs on flat open terrain by gunline armies that now everyone has to suffer.

 

In depth terms, if RT is chess, this rubbish is like snakes and ladders.

[Belger31]

I can't run DG havocs, termies, characters, or daemons, because these units now don't exist.

I can substitute "marines with hygiene trouble" for the termies (right lads, we've got these new guys with us today, lets give the cool stuff to them to prove what nice guys we are.. :woot: ) and havocs, but they are not plaguemarines. I can have a nurgle marked lord, but not a plaguemarine lord. Pathetic.

 

Not following you. No special Nurgle specific rules attached to them means you can't use them in a Deathguard army?

 

This goes totally against everything that the fluff has been for 20 years and more, which I find pitiful. The "cool" new toys I can run (if they were fluffy.. DG bikes? Gimme a break) do not make up for the drivel they have served up this time. I wouldn't mind the nerfage if it was consistent with the fluff, but it appears because a minority of vocal whiners have had their asses handed to them at GTs on flat open terrain by gunline armies that now everyone has to suffer.

 

In depth terms, if RT is chess, this rubbish is like snakes and ladders.

 

20 Years? From what I remember, chaos got the ability to do most of the legion specific customization in 3rd edition.

[mannstein]

Not following you. No special Nurgle specific rules attached to them means you can't use them in a Deathguard army?

 

Yes. To quote the old codex: All Death Guard are Plaguemarines. Not second rate wannabes. For that reason alone, I won't use non-plaguemarine units. I also won't use generic daemons, and I can't use my nurglings at all.

 

20 Years? From what I remember, chaos got the ability to do most of the legion specific customization in 3rd edition.

 

The cult legions each had full army lists, with options for every unit, in RT. The 2nd ed codex had fewer options, and a few things that were just stupid, but the customization element was still there. It was only the first 3rd ed codex that wiped out most of the options and presented the chaos-lite version. Most of the undivided legions (as they are now) were aligned to one of the powers in RT anyway...

[Belger31]

Yes. To quote the old codex: All Death Guard are Plaguemarines. Not second rate wannabes. For that reason alone, I won't use non-plaguemarine units. I also won't use generic daemons, and I can't use my nurglings at all.

 

You don't have to use "second rate wannabes". You can fill out all your troop choices with plaguemarines, can't you? They codex says you can use your plague bearers. They are just lesser demons, like they've always been actually. Nurglings can be lesser demons too. I suppose you could field them as spawn as well.

 

Still not seeing the problem. I'm assuming you just want special rules that make it easier for you to win.

[Maeklos]

Still not seeing the problem. I'm assuming you just want special rules that make it easier for you to win.

 

Getting tired of hearing this repeated by ignorant non-Chaos players whenever someone brings up a FLUFF reason why they dislike the new codex. It's stupid. The complete and cheesy exploitiveness of the new codex has already been proven. Powergamers will find the new 'dex an even easier beast to cudgel into broken, non-losing armies. So give it up already, stug.

[BrainFireBob]

Well, gee whiz, you do realize the special rules people are bemoaning losing were all advantages, yes? Might want to consider that, and how it comes across.

 

I've seen so many "I'm not complaining about losing advantages! I'm complaining about losing my free Aspiring Champions, my Khornate Chain-axes/True Grit/Sonic Weaponry on *everything*"

 

Those were all advantages. You may not mean it that way, but it's rather inane to claim you don't see why it comes across that way.

[Celestial Dragon King]

I think most guys that are upset don't want special rules that help them win. We want balance as much as anyone else. What we don't like things that don't make much sense (new renegades with no plasma cannons/landspeeders) and how it's become kinda flavorless. As seen by some already doing reports there are plenty of things that can already be abbused. There's no need for rules for us to help us win. We just want the flavor back and for more things to make sense. To me it doesn't make sense that your troops can be noise marines but your lord, havocs, and others that used to be, can not be them too. Yes they can have +1I and some psychic powers but no longer any sonic weapons unless you take a special character. which no one usually does. It's not that we want more stuff to make them better, it just seems to make sense. I would just like my Alpha legion cultists back and i'd be more than happy to give up demons, some vehicles. and something else. I'd like the infiltration back at least in a limited way too but it doesn't have to be. All i'm saying is that It's a bit disappointing and bland. I was even going to start a Pyre army before this came out but I might just use C:SM because I want multi-meltas. Because for me, a renegade army would have some of that equipment it had before.

[Maeklos]

Well, gee whiz, you do realize the special rules people are bemoaning losing were all advantages, yes? Might want to consider that, and how it comes across.

 

Hmm. Let's see...mannstein said

 

Yes. To quote the old codex: All Death Guard are Plaguemarines. Not second rate wannabes. For that reason alone, I won't use non-plaguemarine units. I also won't use generic daemons, and I can't use my nurglings at all.

 

Hardly sounds like, what was it? "Bemoaning losing" an advantage? Having Plague Bearers and Nurglings counting as, la gasp!, Plague Bearers and Nurglings instead of generic daemons?

 

I've seen so many "I'm not complaining about losing advantages! I'm complaining about losing my free Aspiring Champions, my Khornate Chain-axes/True Grit/Sonic Weaponry on *everything*"

 

Again, none of these were unbalance advantages, because they all came with disadvantages tied up. The free Aspiring Champions were balanced by the fact that you were locked into certain unit sizes. How many loyalist forces do you see fielding odd-numbered units? Likewise, True Grit doesn't really do anything that having a CC and BP does, and in fact, I believe you lose the +1A for charging if you have True Grit. I can't remember how often I've thought, "Damn! If only my Black Templars could lose that +1A for charging, I would SO be winning right now!"

And Khornate Chainaxes, if I remember right, had to be bought and paid for...by models already bearing the Mark of Khorne...and were less effective than power weapons...After all, they were choppas, something carried by...what are they? 6-point ork choppa boyz?

 

Those were all advantages. You may not mean it that way, but it's rather inane to claim you don't see why it comes across that way.

 

QFT.

[BrainFireBob]

Khornate chainaxes were 1 point, and came on a Str 4 WS4 T4 3+ save body- much better than a slugga boy.

 

Point is, IW players are moaning about losing their bassies, not that they have all three fast attacks now and that's so unfluffy.

 

Alpha Legion players are screaming about losing infiltration and cultists- not about being able to take extra marks.

 

It's the advantages being waved as what's lost.

[mannstein]

Yes. To quote the old codex: All Death Guard are Plaguemarines. Not second rate wannabes. For that reason alone, I won't use non-plaguemarine units. I also won't use generic daemons, and I can't use my nurglings at all.

 

You don't have to use "second rate wannabes". You can fill out all your troop choices with plaguemarines, can't you? They codex says you can use your plague bearers. They are just lesser demons, like they've always been actually. Nurglings can be lesser demons too. I suppose you could field them as spawn as well.

 

Still not seeing the problem. I'm assuming you just want special rules that make it easier for you to win.

 

Sure, I can have troops. But: I can't have termies, havocs, chosen, any kind of HQ choice, any daemons..... I don't care about winning (much), but it would be nice to have a legal plaguemarine army. With nurgle daemons.

Without buying a second codex.

 

You think I want an uberpwnage army? Nope, just an army that fits the fluff would be nice. I don't think that concept should be too hard to understand. If I wanted the kind of cheese that the powergamers use, I would not be playing DG in the first place....

[Excarnificator]

What really bugs me is the reports on mix 'n match marked units. Show me the powergamer who won't drool over a unit that combines the cc abilities of Khorne with the psychic abilities of Slaanesh. Quite possible to have with the new codex, from what I understand. So, it could well be that those who applaud the death of all us "cheese mongering straight out evil powergamers" that obviously makes up chaos players :confused: might find even more powergamers playing chaos, as the list seems even more easily abusive. And less flavourful to boot.

 

Being tedious (and still haven't read the new codex) I'll quote myself here. The problem isn't the lack of advantageous rules, but the lack of flavour (read: fluff adherence) while still having a powergamer list.

 

To clarify. In the fluff some of the chaos gods followers are bitter enemies and won't fight together. This dates back to 1988 and has been an integral part of the fluff. Now this has all been thrown out the door. With the new codex you can mix'n match how you please. And if you powergame you'll optimize your troops in an unfluffy way, Slaanesh prince and Khorne troops for instance. This is what I bemoan. A list which is exploitable and unfluffy at the same time. Not the loss of "special rules" to make me "feel special" and "fulfill my enormous desire to win at all costs".

 

FYI, The fantasy Chaos codex manages to adhere to this fluff tradition with rules written on less than 1/4 page.

 

What I do like is the focus on renegades, though. It'll be interesting when the codex arrives...

 

/Cheers