The newest Chaos codex

[AkiraCho]

its true, i kinda use my commander in the same way, if he can soak an enormous volly of shots for a few turns i appreciate it, because at the end of the game my tanks breaking yours is worth more then my single lord. 150 pts vs potentially hundreds, worthy trade.

[Gree]

This is funny.

 

What are you going to do? Have him walk the enitre board expsoed to enemy fire? Termie armor can only take so many lascannons ans missle launchers before rollling a one.

 

Umm actually........yes, he will walk with the other 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take, if he dies oh well, I still have 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take left for you to kill, hahaha, waste all your power on my commander, see if I care

 

I've got a guard player at my club would have a field day against a foot-slogging chaos army.

 

We do not have cannon fodder, we can't needlessly waste marines.

[Stella Cadente]

This is funny.

 

What are you going to do? Have him walk the enitre board expsoed to enemy fire? Termie armor can only take so many lascannons ans missle launchers before rollling a one.

 

Umm actually........yes, he will walk with the other 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take, if he dies oh well, I still have 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take left for you to kill, hahaha, waste all your power on my commander, see if I care

 

I've got a guard player at my club would have a field day against a foot-slogging chaos army.

 

We do not have cannon fodder, we can't needlessly waste marines.

 

for the love of the Chaos gods, your a chaos player, act like one, everyone is expendable in the eyes of chaos, enemies, allies, ANYTHING, don't be a wussy boring imperial player anymore, play like chaos should, with little to no concern for your own men

[Black and White]

This is funny.

 

What are you going to do? Have him walk the enitre board expsoed to enemy fire? Termie armor can only take so many lascannons ans missle launchers before rollling a one.

 

Umm actually........yes, he will walk with the other 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take, if he dies oh well, I still have 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take left for you to kill, hahaha, waste all your power on my commander, see if I care

 

I've got a guard player at my club would have a field day against a foot-slogging chaos army.

 

We do not have cannon fodder, we can't needlessly waste marines.

 

for the love of the Chaos gods, your a chaos player, act like one, everyone is expendable in the eyes of chaos, enemies, allies, ANYTHING, don't be a wussy boring imperial player anymore, play like chaos should, with little to no concern for your own men

 

Yes, all chaos space marines are mindless berzerkers incapable of looking out for thier own safety and with no bonds of brotherhood or leaders capable of managing finite resources to complete objectives in the present and keeping them for future missions. Yes we're all mindless god worshiping berzerkers like the world eaters. Alpha legion, night lords, iron warriors, thousand sons - not a tactical mind in the lot of them.

[Stella Cadente]

*sigh* I remember the days of Real chaos players, the kind that just wanted to smash someones head in and didn't care about losing a squad or 2 to get the job done, now it seems Chaos is the new green peace, this is a sad day

[Black and White]

*sigh* I remember the days of Real chaos players, the kind that just wanted to smash someones head in and didn't care about losing a squad or 2 to get the job done, now it seems Chaos is the new green peace, this is a sad day

 

It even says in the red corsair's fluff that they will wait till a ship strays off and won't run stupidly into a pile of warships when they do their attacks. Chaos marines aren't retarded. Well maybe the world eaters.

[BrainFireBob]

Btw, on the lack of retinue? Join him to a squad

[Black and White]

Btw, on the lack of retinue? Join him to a squad

 

If his squad has a transport, in escalation they will start off the board. Ditto to if he has a jump pack or bike - he risks not coming in on the same turn as his unit. If he wants to deep strike with terminator armour, same problem.

 

The only time your solution works is if he counts as infantry, and the squad you want to put him with is foot slooging. Or you get lucky and roll gamma or alpha. And then, it dosen't help you if you're wearing TDA and want to deep strike.

[mannstein]

Sure, I can have troops. But: I can't have termies, havocs, chosen, any kind of HQ choice, any daemons..... I don't care about winning (much), but it would be nice to have a legal plaguemarine army. With nurgle daemons.

Without buying a second codex.

 

You can have all of the above. They just don't have special nurgle specific rules. Nobody says you can't paint those units, or any other units Deathguard colors and field them. If you fail to see that, then you are exposing yourself as somone who cares more about the advantages you used to get from playing DG than the "fluff" behind DG.

 

Wrong. I cant use them, because THEY ARE NOT PLAGUEMARINES. I do not care whether they are nurgle followers or not, I cannot use them in a DG army because they are not Death Guard. Like it says in the fluff. That is my main objection. I couldn't care less if my troops suddenly couldn't move more than 2" per turn and shoot, or some other mad penalty, but I won't break the fluff. I would pay extra points happily to be allowed to use proper plaguemarine troops, but I am being denied that basic choice.

 

That is a choice I have made, not to cheat and use the powergamey combos. In fantasy, by the way, the Lord has to have the same mark or the mark of undivided, which is fluffy. Slaanesh lords can't lead Khornate armies, just for reference..

[lospantalones]

As an IW player id have to say that the biggest problem with the new codex is the fact that i have to deal with getting 2 MORE FAST ATTACK CHOICES I hate chaos fast attack choices they have no place in my IW and since i play large games which normally require a second force org. chart I will now need to get another 2 FA choices. The only one even remotely feasable in an IW army being bikes but hey, what am i playing IW or gw's new hells angels army list? never even mind the fact that i can no longer use my 18 obliterators and 7 defilers/1 basilisk <call that as broken bearded cheesey as you want but i cant make it rain the MASSIVE squads of bloodletters that my friends WE can so i chose to drop 8 pie-plates a turn

[Brother Pete]

As an IW player id have to say that the biggest problem with the new codex is the fact that i have to deal with getting 2 MORE FAST ATTACK CHOICES I hate chaos fast attack choices they have no place in my IW and since i play large games which normally require a second force org. chart I will now need to get another 2 FA choices.

 

Err, Why?

 

Nothing forces you to fill your fast attack slots, even if you are using 2 force org charts...

 

WE can so i chose to drop 8 pie-plates a turn

 

Why dont you get him some pie plate sized movement trays and be done with it..

 

@Stella Cadente

 

If you were in a bar and Gav came in and drunk half your pint you would probably look at your glass and think "Wow, its half full!" :confused:

 

Evil dudes usually have a posse of bad boys who tear around with him causing all sorts of mayhem, sorting out troublemakers and making sure that no'one interferes with their lowriders.

 

Do renegade commanders suddenly dispense with their close confidants and bodyguards? Do they hand over their customised land raider with the alloy wheels to the grunts? Do they finish their bloodcurdling speech on the battlebarge with a "*cough* You guys go on and port with out me, Ive got some invoices to sign".

 

No. He should have had a retinue and its just wrong that he doesnt.

[Stella Cadente]

If you were in a bar and Gav came in and drunk half your pint you would probably look at your glass and think "Wow, its half full!" :teehee:

 

well the first thing I would wonder is why I was in a bar, since drinking is for losers who have no lives and want to forget it with beer

 

No. He should have had a retinue and its just wrong that he doesnt.

 

but he does, stick him in a squad, instant retinue, that's what I'll just do

[redbeard]

Well, gee whiz, you do realize the special rules people are bemoaning losing were all advantages, yes? Might want to consider that, and how it comes across.

 

I've seen so many "I'm not complaining about losing advantages! I'm complaining about losing my free Aspiring Champions, my Khornate Chain-axes/True Grit/Sonic Weaponry on *everything*"

 

Those were all advantages. You may not mean it that way, but it's rather inane to claim you don't see why it comes across that way.

 

I haven't heard a single person complain about losing free champions, chain axes or true grit. People are complaining about losing Sonic Weapons not because of the advantage such weapons provide (which honestly works out to 1 bolter shot for 5 points...) but because we've spent a lot of time and money converting our models to have these weapons, and we're stuck with an army that cannot be played. Not an army that is less effective, an army that is no longer legal.

 

 

Slaanesh Lords leading Khorne berserkers? Yes, it does happen in Fantasy. It happens in some 40k as well (kharne fights for whoever he wants, whenever he wants). If Abbaddon says, hey, Lucius, you take those world eaters over and beat that planet, do they object? No, they do it, cause Darth Abbaddon is nominally in charge.

 

No, it doesn't happen in Fantasy. Undivided lords can mix slaanesh and khorne units. A slaanesh lord cannot lead khorne troops. And, Kharne cannot be an army general. He isn't a Chaos Lord. Khorne cannot (currently) lead Slaanesh.

 

Which brings us to that second dark horse, balanced gaming. The old list was too powerful, period. The new list might allow some abuses (Lash...) but it is more balanced and Lash can be countered by Runes of Warding, Psychic Hoods etc. whereas (for example) the old quasi-unkillable Daemon Princes or the 4 IW pie plates couldn't. Chess is such a challenging game because it is balanced, so anything that balances 40k should be welcomed.

 

 

And what do Tau, or Necrons do to counter Lash? Will every IG army be forced to ally an inquisitor? The new codex is hardly balanced. 40k is such a complex interaction of rules that true balance is not possible. However, it can be approximated. A power like Lash is clearly powerful at even the most casual glance, regardless of the point cost. But, GWs idea of balance is not "make the game fair", it's "make the new stuff attractive so models sell". There is a reason that Chaos Terminators are extremely cheap now. Think about it. New model syndrome.

 

 

Lastly, the codex isn't even out yet. Play a couple of games with it, look at the rules etc and then you might voice some criticism, but starting to whinge now is just plain ridiculous.

 

I agree, this is good advice, and I would, but MY ARMY IS NO LONGER PLAYABLE. I NO LONGER HAVE ENOUGH LEGAL MODELS TO PLAY WITH.

[Maeklos]

This is funny.

 

What are you going to do? Have him walk the enitre board expsoed to enemy fire? Termie armor can only take so many lascannons ans missle launchers before rollling a one.

 

Umm actually........yes, he will walk with the other 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take, if he dies oh well, I still have 40 chaos marines+Close combat dread+defiler+10possessed+anything else I take left for you to kill, hahaha, waste all your power on my commander, see if I care

 

I've got a guard player at my club would have a field day against a foot-slogging chaos army.

 

We do not have cannon fodder, we can't needlessly waste marines.

 

I second this. Having been a Guard player for many years, I can tell you, you can't outshoot a Guard army. Even Iron Warriors can't do it. Who cares about pie plates o' doom when every model in your army has a 4+ or even a 3+ cover save? (Chameleoline) My counterbattery fire (Two Basilisks plus 9 mortar teams) can disperse any PA assault. That's not even counting my Sentinel squads, my Grenadiers with Chimeras, or my Deep Striking dual-melta-armed Stormtroopers. Add in the Sharpshooter doctrine (reroll all non-plasma and non-sniper to-hit dice that come up a 1) and you've got the ultimate shooty army.

 

And let me tell you, I just love footslogging Chaos armies. Boom-boom-boom. Dead. Tasty stuff.

[Stella Cadente]

And let me tell you, I just love footslogging Chaos armies. Boom-boom-boom. Dead. Tasty stuff.

 

yes yes I've heard that thousands of times from hundreds of Guard players, although even I as an ex Guard player never said that kinda stuff, cus when you gloat it, its guaranteed to go wrong, I have used footslogging armies for 13yrs now, and in that time I have won more games than any of my locals stores mech lists, all that "BOOM BOOM" is no good when you have TERRAIN on the board blocking your LOS

[Maeklos]

all that "BOOM BOOM" is no good when you have TERRAIN on the board blocking your LOS

 

Basilisks and mortars are all indirect fire weapons. :D We can reach out and touch you behind hills, inside buildings and around corners.

 

We are...Da Ninja Gunz of Navarrone! :teehee:

[Stella Cadente]

all that "BOOM BOOM" is no good when you have TERRAIN on the board blocking your LOS

 

Basilisks and mortars are all indirect fire weapons. :teehee: We can reach out and touch you behind hills, inside buildings and around corners.

 

you do know that they scatter, and have a huge minimum range, I'll just walk right under your guns and, oh dear you can't fire, guess you have to bring your Bassie into the open and BOOM oh dear its dead

 

and mortars? do you seriously think I'm scared of them, I know what they can do, its its not allot.

 

if you really want to have me worried, then take 6 Heavy mortars and 3 Thudd guns, then take shed loads of infantry with lascannons and then I'd be worried, but right now the things you've said is again the same as every guard player and its not scary in the slightest

[Penmarch']

and mortars? do you seriously think I'm scared of them, I know what they can do, its its not allot.

 

I suppose you've never been in the military :teehee:

[Stella Cadente]

I suppose you've never been in the military ;)

 

actually yes I have, but we are not talking about reality we are talking about 40k mortars

[Maeklos]

you do know that they scatter, and have a huge minimum range, I'll just walk right under your guns and, oh dear you can't fire, guess you have to bring your Bassie into the open and BOOM oh dear its dead

 

and mortars? do you seriously think I'm scared of them, I know what they can do, its its not allot.

 

if you really want to have me worried, then take 6 Heavy mortars and 3 Thudd guns, then take shed loads of infantry with lascannons and then I'd be worried, but right now the things you've said is again the same as every guard player and its not scary in the slightest

 

Basilisks only have a minimum range when firing indirectly. Firing directly, they have no minimum range. That's why you have to be smart when setting them up. Also, I've found that 12 multilasers (9 Sentinels + 3 Chimeras) do a good job of chopping up PA troops. Throw in the Heavy Bolter and Plasma Gun from each infantry squad, and you've got a good firebase.

 

And, not to be circular, but your remarks are pretty typical of every PA force I've played. Usually right before they lose.

[Stella Cadente]

Basilisks only have a minimum range when firing indirectly. Firing directly, they have no minimum range. That's why you have to be smart when setting them up.

 

if you can see me, I can see you, if you want to expose your tanks then at least make them leman russ, not worthless basilisks (which in open ground they ARE worthless)

 

Also, I've found that 12 multilasers (9 Sentinels + 3 Chimeras) do a good job of chopping up PA troops. Throw in the Heavy Bolter and Plasma Gun from each infantry squad, and you've got a good firebase.

 

yes multilasers are extremely effective, I always took sentinels with them, give them a hunter killer too and you got yourself a very useful unit, but an autocannon in your squads I feel would be way more effective then a HB, or perhaps use the 2:1 ratio for them

 

And, not to be circular, but your remarks are pretty typical of every PA force I've played. Usually right before they lose.

 

and I've only been playing PA for a year now and 3 years before I started Guard

 

so thats 3yrs PA

9yrs Guard and various other NONE PA forces (except for a maybe a year gap spread over several months in different years)

1yr PA again

 

so there not typical of a PA player, there Typical of a Guard player and armoured company player actually

[Lord_Stetson]

Maeklos, you put it very succinctly. I started this thread not to bitch, but to feel out other peoples opinion on the codex. As the new codex is written, it is just as powergamey as the 3.5 book, and those of us who had a themed chaos army (slaanesh/khorne assault, alpha legion, death guard kinda) "got stitched up". Yes, i can do a chaos army that will win. The army i own (a pre heresy emperor's children army) cannot be fielded. Raptors may be cheaper than they used to be now, but being solid metal, raptor models are just too expensive to be fielded in effective numbers. I have had my shooty loyalist army, and my I.G. blast many footslogging chaos armies to pieces. Using rhinos as cover works only 'till the rhino is vapourised, and your army is slowed by the rough terrain checks needed to climb over all the wrecks that now plug the holes in the terrain. Yes, i can field an entire army in all the right colours, but i cannot have those models represented by the rules. If i wanted to play an black legion army, i would have done so in the first place. now the best i can do is "purple legion". Yes, i can use my daemonettes, as long as i don't mind that they are the exact same as a bloodletter (and i really do). This does not smell of "game balance" (it smells of profiteering). There is no reason other than ether laziness or sheer avarice that made the daemons the same. A nurgling can be different from a disk of tzeench, without being more (or less) powerful. if the only reason daemons are not distinct anymore is because gw wants to sell me "codex: daemons" and then the book of the gods to play my army, shouldn't i feel a little irked? Why then, after 20 years, did the bloodthirster get scrapped? I can play any army, i chose chaos for the diversity. I don't care about the "free aspiring" if that was overbalancing (which i seriously doubt) then fine i don't mind, scrap it. Do i miss the veteran skills? you bet. why? because i could get my troops into combat. Before i am lambasted as saying "i just want powergaming rules" i challenge anyone who would say that to play a footslogging army against a competent gunline army. use a reasonable amount of terrain (4-8 pieces for a 4x4 or 8-16 pieces on a 4x8). I am willing to wager you will find it a learning experience.

[ArmouredWing]

So, here's a question. How do you recognize this tactical excellence (as well as the Alpha Legion's penchant for surprise attacks, covert operations, and disguise) on the tabletop since they now play exactly the same and can field exactly the same as every other Chaos force out there?

 

The same way you do with games like chess or go (games known to be mastered by those with exceptional tactical minds).

 

True, true. But chess is ALL about the strategy between 2 identical forces. I think the main point that the "shut up and stop moaning" crowd are missing is that most people who do feel grieved by this new direction feel that way because we want to play flavourful, colourful armies which are different. The power players out there who, lets face it, are largely responsible for this dumbing down of the codex & the game in general are the kind of players that won't miss the choice that the previous codex had to offer. They'll switch to whatever force they think will offer them the best chance of winning and start the whole process off again. After all how boring was the standard IW tournie template? I certainly wouldn't want to be seen playing it and the fact I chose to construct a fluffy DG force that didn't have access to certain heavy weapons, bikes, havocs and, indeed, oblits was testament to that fact. I did however like nurgles rot, ok so not incredably effective but at the end of the day thats what my troops had. So I can still field a DG force with relative ease and minor conversion but the interest has simply gone in much the same way as my nurgings and plague bearers.

GW is gradually dropping the bar of the game to encourage the kids in, what they don't realise is that the mini's are too expensive for the kids to buy whilst the rules are becoming too boring, uhem, sorry, ""streamlined" to keep the interest of the veterans.

Ladies & gents welcome to "40K Lite".

Enjoy!

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Hi everone

 

Once again it mod time. Can I please ask that people settle down, stop insulting, flaming or what not. Also can we please keep the Imperial Guard stuff out as this is a Power Armour fourm.

 

Thanks

 

IP

[Bannus]

OK, I have tried to come in here and catch up on this thread periodically, but I gave up around page 5. So sorry if this has been said before.

 

There is one factor that people may be missing that can explain why the original Legions would now look more like Renegades:

 

Time.

 

Yes, I can hear you now "But time isn't the same in the Eye of Terror as it is in real space".

 

True. But casualties are casualties and attrition is attrition.

 

Let's face it - if the Chaos Legions lost just one single Marine per year since entering the Eye of Terror (an unrealistically low estimate considering 13 failed campaigns over the centuries, don't you think?) and they did not replace their losses, then they would be extinct by now.

 

It is that rediculous premise that made the last Codex so stupid - "These Marines are same Marines who have been fighting for 10,000 years - so they have to be better." Yeah, right. I'm sorry. You can read in the fluff that Chaos Lords are willing to sacrifice their own soldiers as offerings with enough frequency to wipe out the original Legions long before now. not to mention the ones they kill for failure or just for fun.

 

Some of those Marines are probably still around - but not many. They are likely the leaders of many of these warbands the new Codex represents.

 

As for the original Legions - Because of attrition and necessity, they would now look more like these recent warbands than their former selves. A World Eater Grand Company will have a very high percentage Berzerkers in it and little else remaining (since that is about all they would be attracting by now). A Black Legion Grand Company would have an easier time replacing losses by simply absorbing smaller Renegade Warbands.

 

The point I am making is that the 3.5 Codex probably represents the Legions well during their first few thousand years following the Heresy - but not now. As they struggle to perpetuate themselves following each failed offensive, they have been forced to adapt new structures and new tactics (after all, the old tactics weren't working out). Because of these factors, the Chaos Legions look more like the warbands than their former selves.

 

So an Iron Warriors Grand Company no longer tries to scavenge and rebuild Basilisks from the battlefield (most of those older warriors who used them and were able to repair and rebuild them are now dead or leading their own bands) and the newer recruits simply trust in the faithful Vindicators that were all too familiar to them from their previous lives. The old squad leaders with servo-arms are long gone now - replaced by newer, younger (and hopefully more successful) leadership.

 

The same idea can be applied to any Legion.

 

So Noise Marines can't have as many toys as they used to? Maybe that is because they are no longer able to produce this equipment fast enough to keep up with losses. Perhaps these Grand Companies are suffering more than the others and also explains why the K-Sons have gained in power. Take a new "recruit" - say "Abrakadabra" and "poof" - new K-Son ready to go.

 

Even though there is no specific rules to indicate what Legion may still have what, the army lists still give you a big clue - as well as the abundance of fluff available. It will now be up to the individual player to be responsible for staying faithful to their Legion. No. There are no special rules anymore that give these Legions unique advantages against their opponents. However, you now have the freedom to pick units that were not available to you before - albeit units that are not necessarily "fluffy". So you have a choice now between making your armies themed towards their Legions or you can make your armies "efficient" - but they are not necessarily one and the same anymore. I suspect that those palyers who genuinely chose their Legions because of the fluff and imagery will remain faithful to them - even if means making an army that doesn't take advantage of every cost-effective unit in the list. Those who claimed the same thing but had .... shall we say ...."different motivations" .... will simply number-crunch a new army and rationalize it any way they can. Perhaps it is why a few players are objecting to the newer rules, because it will expose them for who they truely are. But there are some very legitimate complaints in this thread.

 

What it really boils down to (as it has for the new DA and BA rules and soon enough for Space Marines) is that strategy and tactics will be the deciding factor on the tabletop instead of the special rules.

 

Which is as it should be.