The Emperor's Champion Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 If anyone cares to read what became more or less a debate between just Bannus and myself on the current scope and composition of our Chapter's fleet: go HERE I suppose we got a bit off of the original topic, but so is the way of discussion. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1466549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 Eventually, GW had no choice but to declare this article as "non-canon". Considering they've never declared anything to be "canon" in the first place, I find this statement to be rather dubious. You got a reference for that? I, too consider the article to be, well, a bit dodgy, but it's an interesting version of the background. As far as using the Seditio Opprimere, I believe it's still legal to use it, but it widely acknowledged as the most broken ship in BFG, and will probably earn you nothing but scorn from your opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1466895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Wow, you mean we have the Mephiston of BFG? I've only ever played for 1/4 of a game so I had no idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1466940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Data007 Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 I'd like to playtest it some before I call it broken, especially opposite the Chaos battleship with full lance decks, but otherwise, I'm just not seeing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1466964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 The Chaos ship has lances out to the same range, but 2 less shots. In my opinion, the Seditio Opprimere, while in line with fluff because it was written in, is not broken at all. It even costs more than the original battle barge (also 150 more than the Chaos battleship). Like I mentioned earlier, I think it's just that people didn't want the Space Marine fleet to become a fleet, and just stay an armed transport convoy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1467136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 The Chaos ship has lances out to the same range, but 2 less shots. In my opinion, the Seditio Opprimere, while in line with fluff because it was written in, is not broken at all. It even costs more than the original battle barge (also 150 more than the Chaos battleship). Like I mentioned earlier, I think it's just that people didn't want the Space Marine fleet to become a fleet, and just stay an armed transport convoy. i agree 100%. the SM fleet is probably the only balanced fleet in the game. they pay an arm and a leg for their decent ships, while their Strike Cruisers are really weak. the articles is highly dubious as the ship lists it uses arent even the recognised ships GW have always maintained. but it brings up some very good expansions of stuff never covered and for the purposes of this project it is useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1467285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Considering they've never declared anything to be "canon" in the first place, I find this statement to be rather dubious. You got a reference for that? The term "canon" became quite prevalent on the GW forums and it was on those forums that people quickly started punching holes in the fluff surrounding that article. This article - probably more than any other - is the reason why GW no longer accepts articles from the fan-base that discusses anything beyond the hobby aspect. Anyway, the more recent fluff from Fanatic #6 which expounds a lot about how Space Marine Fleets operate (and even has two varaint fleet lists to boot) would make a large fleet impractical for any Space Marine Chapter numbering about 1000 Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1468248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Doesn't it also talk about how in the case of large fleets, there are less SM crew per ship and so they don't get the boarding bonus? The dominion fleet comes to mind, since they use that as an example of an Ultramarines fleet setup. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1468366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 logically id imagine the Ultramarines would have disciplined infantry who would fill in for missing Astartes, thus stretching the capacity of the Ultramarines fleet further. sure there is no direct evidence, but there is implication what with the organised nature of the Ultramarines and the mass amounts military organisation in Ultramar combined with the fluff before the rules in BFG Armada that states that the Chapter serfs are well armed, trained and motivated even without the support of their genetically modified laws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1468446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Doesn't it also talk about how in the case of large fleets, there are less SM crew per ship and so they don't get the boarding bonus? The dominion fleet comes to mind, since they use that as an example of an Ultramarines fleet setup. Exactly - but the fleet is expanded by incorperating Imperial Naval vessels into the fleet and distributing the Marines throughout it. The keys here are that the fleet is temporary and is not composed exclusively of Space Marine vessels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1468785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 logically id imagine the Ultramarines would have disciplined infantry who would fill in for missing Astartes, thus stretching the capacity of the Ultramarines fleet further. sure there is no direct evidence, but there is implication what with the organised nature of the Ultramarines and the mass amounts military organisation in Ultramar combined with the fluff before the rules in BFG Armada that states that the Chapter serfs are well armed, trained and motivated even without the support of their genetically modified laws. Yes. All Space Marine Chapters have a cult within their serfs dedicated to supporting the fleet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1468789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Well, hate to bring up old threads, despite their awesomeness value like this one, but new information has become available. Fist of Macragge: Brother-Captain Hektor commanded this Lunar-Class battleship (Lunars are cruisers now, but before?) during the Great Crusade. It was destroyed by the Furious Abyss, a Word Bearers ship built by traitors within the Mechanicus from Mars, a couple months before the Battle for Calth. (Battle for the Abyss, 2008) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1647249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt tyranus Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 (edited) New information makes it OK. Let me rephrase that. VALUABLE new information makes it OK. And this qualifies. As a matter of fact, I was looking for this thread last week. I just didn't dig deep enough it seems. If copies of Battle for the Abyss are trickling out, we should get LOTS of new fluff to post here, in the Ultra names, and in the Ultra history threads. So, with that in mind, I'm going to go ahead and sticky this thread. Edited July 30, 2008 by Capt tyranus updating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1647529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 You found the thread! *applause* I've looked for this thing quite a few times now with no luck! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1647596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 In the times of the Great Crusade, space marines could commandeer ships, much like Inquisitors today. In fact, they did just that by saying "Is mine, now we go fast" to the admiral of the Wrathful, some sort of cruiser, so technically it was an Ultramarines ship for a little while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1647735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt tyranus Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Yeah, one of the reasons I'm stickying this is so I don't have to search for it every couple of months. Anyway, new Ultra Strike Cruiser: Valin's Revenge It's from page 137 of the 5th Edition rule book. This ship supported Imperial forces defending Ghosphora Hive by bombarding Ork lines from orbit. An then delivered Captain Sicarius and the men of the 2nd Company via Drop Pod assault so they could push the Orks off Ghosphora's walls during the Black Reach campaign. Sorry, no year given. At least until the boxed set comes out. Or so I hope. You found the thread! *applause* I've looked for this thing quite a few times now with no luck! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1647952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Hooray for the stickiness! I'll update the top post as soon as I may. Thanks for the continued contributions, brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1649214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted August 9, 2008 Author Share Posted August 9, 2008 Top post: updated! We need a few more things before I feel comfortable sending this to the Librarium: There's nothing on Macragge's system defenses (see various accounts of the Battle for Macragge) not enough of tactics (ditto) not enough on the changes wrought in the wake of the First Tyrannic War (some BFG material describes this, especially the document detailing the infamous Seditio Opprimere) not enough on the Codex Astartes and naval operations (Wasn't there something in Nightbringer when Uriel flew a Thunderhawk past its fuel limits or something?) Let's get cracking, Brothers! *Goes back to sleep.* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1658247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 US White Dwarf 299, pg98-99, December 2004 (You'd might as well write the whole thing in) - The Ultramarine fleet is capable of fighting a space action and has done so on many occasions. These battles were driven by expediency rather than choice though. - An Ultramarine fleet is instead the means by which the Space Marines reach their destination prior to battle on the surface. - "Battle Barges are the match of any Imperial Navy battleship. Heavily armored and shielded, they are capable of trading broadsides with any foe. They are also equipped with powerful bombardment cannons that excel at smashing orbital defenses as well as delivering apocalyptic orbital strikes. A Battle Barge will typically transport three or four companies of space marines along with all the supporting equipment they require. The exact complement of space marines assigned to a Battle Barge depends on the mission to be undertaken and is far from standard. - "Strike Cruisers are similar in mass to Imperial Navy Light Cruisers. Strike Cruisers are faster and better armored than any equivalent vessel. Their armament is by necessity quite light but includes a bombardment cannon, which makes them more dangerous in a planetary assault...A Strike Cruiser can transport a single company of space marines with its supporting equipment. The effect that even a single company of Ultramarines can have is considerable, and often the arrival of a Strike Cruiser is enough to convince an opponent to withdraw." - "Both Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers are able to launch squadrons of Thunderhawk gunships. They are a veritable workhorse in the Ultramarines' service. They are able to operate in space or atmosphere, are heavily armed and armored, and can carry a substantial detachment of 30 to 40 Ultramarines." - "The purpose of the Thunderhawk is the safe delivery of its space marine cargo. In space actions, Thunderhawks enable space marines to board enemy vessels. They are trained to move quickly toward key objectives on an enemy vessel (such as the gun decks, engine room, or bridge), eliminate the personnel there, plant charges, and retreat. In the particularly vicious fighting that occurs during boarding actions, space marines excel above all other troops, and their raids frequently leave powerful vessels crippled and helpless. - "In ground combat, the Thunderhawk will smash its way through any air defenses and deploy its passengers directly onto their objectives...such as at enemy headquarters, to finish the campaign immediately." - "In addition to Thunderhawks, space marine ships carry enough drop pods to enable the entire complement of space marines to perform a simultaneous combat drop...During a drop, the Deathwinds land first. They...are instead guided by a Machine Spirit to draw enemy fire during the descent. Practically, there is little opportunity for ground fire to be brought to bear, however. Drop pods travel at very high speeds and make planetfall within minutes of launch. Once the Deathwinds land they open to reveal their many and varied weapon systems and proceed to saturate the landing zone with heavy suppressive fire. The drop pods carrying space marines make planetfall just as the Deathwind pods expend their ammunition. Within seconds of landing, the hatches are blown and the space marines form up and move toward their objectives. On many occasions, the Ultramarines have targeted a key objective and droppd one or more companies right on top of it. With no warning, such an attack is virtually irresistable, a fact that has given rise to the phrase "death from above." " Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1661910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 US WD 288, January 2004, pg114 - Codex Astartes tactics involves harassing enemy fleet and picking off flank guards, catching invaders betwee the anvil of the forts on the ground and the hammer of space marine drop pods, while the fleet would assault invading ships Evolution of the Codex: - "Calgar realized that the Ultramarines had been guilty of the sin of pride. The Codex Astartes was made for the space marines; the space marines were not made for the codex. The codex contained no direct answer to the xenothings because they were unknown to the blessed primarch when he wrote his divine tome. The Ultramarines were going to have to improvise by using the principles enshrined in the Codex Astartes to devise novel tactics." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1661927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) War-Cruiser Crotaline: Failed to respond to Guilliman's request for ground support at the Battle of Calth. Perhaps destroyed by the Word Bearers' War-Cruiser Lacertian. (Space Marine, 1989) Edited August 16, 2008 by Brother Pariah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1665748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) "Orbital fortresses and ponderous systems defense monitors surrounded Macragge with a ring of firepower." (Codex Tyranids, 1995, p. 7) Edited August 17, 2008 by Brother Pariah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1666146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 (edited) Thunderhawk Gunships (assigned to Valin's Revenge) Gladius Thunderstorm C:SM 2008, various pages System Defences Orbital fortresses and ponderous system defence monitors surrounded Macragge with a ring of firepower (BFG magazine 10, pg 6, 2002) Edited October 12, 2008 by Seahawk Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1728314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pariah Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 The Codex Astartes forbids refueling a Thunderhawk Gunship with its engines turning over. (Nightbringer, p. 136) Rather than bring his Thunderhawk in for refueling, Captain Ventris orders the Vae Victus to drive the Dark Eldar ship toward the Thunderhawk so it can be boarded. Lord Admiral Tiberius says that this maneuver "goes against everything in the Codex Astartes regarding ship operations." (Nightbringer, p. 136) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1740746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 (edited) Macragge's Honour - Guilliman's Flag Ship http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/Ieyke/UltramarinesLegionMacraggesHonour.jpg Miatus Strike Craft http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/Ieyke/UltramarinesLegionShips-MiatusStrik.jpg Gauntlet Of Power Battle Barge http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/Ieyke/UltramarinesLegionShips-GauntletOfP.jpg Edited November 10, 2008 by The Emperor's Champion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/122020-naval-operations-of-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-1766531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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