Codex: Lords of Oblivion Project

Allerka · December 29, 2007

Here's the revised list. I checked, and, luckily enough, I can list the psychic powers in a separate PDF, which I'll whip up when we're to that point. In this thread, though, we'll stick to just the names of the powers to avoid IP issues. I changed the special rules, removing the original list, and altered unit entries to reflect their new options. I also highlighted the psychic powers for each unit, along with any other tweaks. See below.

[skullheaderhalf=086300] +++LORDS OF OBLIVION ARMY LIST+++

A Lords of Oblivion Battle Brother[/skullheaderhalf]

+SPECIAL RULES+

Strong in Mind: The Lords of Oblivion place strength of mind above all other virtues, for the mightiest gun in the universe is useless if there is no one with the will or resolve to pull the trigger. For reasons unknown to those outside the Chapter, the Lords of Oblivion can call upon more Librarians than normal. Many officers within the Chapter are also psykers in their own regard, having decades of combat experience to refine their latent powers into something usuable.

All Lords of Oblivion Independent Characters and Veteran Sergeants may, in addition to their normal wargear options, take a psychic power. The powers they may choose from, and their costs, are listed in their individual entries, and they may have ONE psychic power. Note that these officers get ONLY a psychic power. They do not receive a force weapon and psychic hood like Librarians do. They also receive a -1 LD penalty when taking psychic tests.

Devastated: The Lords of Oblivion suffered horrendous losses in the Salvation of Firien campaign. Even now, several years later, they are still in the process of rebuilding their Chapter. However, the demands of a galaxy at war mean they must continue to fight under-strength, unable to call upon the resources of a full Chapter.

May only take 0-1 choices in an army from the following list:

Bike Squadron
Attack Bike Squadron
Land Speeder Squadron

May only take 0-2 choices in an army from the following list:

Predator
Whirlwind
Vindicator
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader

+HQ+

Company Captain______________________________________________ 105 points

Profile: Same as BA Company Captain

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter or bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Iron halo

Chainsword

Special Rules:

Stubborn

Independent Character

Rites of Battle

True-Grit

Options:

Replace bolter or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for + 15 points.
Replace chainsword with one of the following:
- a power weapon for +15 points.
- a power fist or lightning claw for +25 points
- a pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer for +30 points
[*]May take one of the following:
- a stormbolter for +5 points
- combi-weapon for +10 points
[*]May take meltabombs for +5 points

[*]May take Fury of the Ancients for +5 points, or Veil of Time for +20 points.

[*]May take a jump pack for +20 points or a Space Marine Bike for +30 points.

[*]Replace all other wargear with Terminator armor, storm bolter and power weapon or power

fist for +25 points. A Company Captain in Terminator Armor may exchange his storm bolter

and power weapon for a thunder hammer and storm shield or a pair of lightning claws at no

extra cost.

Lords of Oblivion Librarian_______________________________________________ 125 points

Profile: Same as BA Librarian

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter or bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Psychic Hood

Force weapon

Special Rules:

Stubborn

Independent Character

True-Grit

Options:

Replace bolter with a plasma pistol for + 15 points.
May take one of the following:
- a stormbolter for +5 points
- combi-weapon for +10 points
[*]May take meltabombs for +5 points.

[*]May take a jump pack for +20 points or Space Marine Bike for +30 points.

[*]Replace all other wargear with Terminator armor, storm bolter, force weapon and psychic

hood for +25 points.

May choose up to two powers from the following list:

Fury of the Ancients
Storm of the Emperor's Wrath
Might of Heroes
Word of the Emperor

May upgrade up to two powers for +15 points each, and replace them with powers selected from the following list:

Veil of Time
Vortex of Doom
Fear of the Darkness
Holocaust

Chaplain _____________________________________________________ 105 points

Profile: Same as BA Chaplain

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter or bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Crozius Arcanum

Rosarius

Special Rules:

Honor of the Chapter

Litanies of Hate

Independent Character

True-Grit

Options:

Replace bolter or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
May replace bolter with one of the following:
- a stormbolter for +5 points
- combi-weapon for +10 points
[*]May take meltabombs for +5 points.

[*]May take a jump-pack for +20 points OR a Space Marine bike for +30 points.

[*]May take Might of Heroes for +10 points or His Will Be Done for +20 points.

0-1: Command Squad_________________________________________ 110 points

The Command Squad does not use up any Force Organization Chart selections but is otherwise treated

as a separate HQ unit.

Profile: As DA Company Veterans

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

4 Veteran Space Marines

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter

Frag grenades

Krak Grenades

Chainsword

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

True-Grit

Transport:

Command Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

The Squad may include up to five additional Veterans for +20 points per model.
Up to two Veterans may replace their bolter with a plasma pistol for +15 points per model.
Up to two Veterans may replace their chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points
per model or a power fist for +25 points per model.
Up to two Veterans may replace their bolter with a flamer for +5 points per
model, a melta-gun for +10 points per model, or a plasma gun for +15 points per model.
One Veteran may be upgraded to a Tech-Adept, replacing his power armor with artificer
armor and his chainsword with a power weapon for +30 points. Tech-Adepts have
the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule.
One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary equipped with a narthecium/reductor for +20
points.
One Veteran may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer carrying a Company Standard for +10
points.
Any Veteran may take meltabombs for +5 points per model.
For every Company Captain in the army, one Command Squad may upgrade one Veteran
to a Company Champion, by replacing his chainsword with a power weapon and giving him
a combat shield for +25 points.
If there is a Chaplain in the army, the Command Squad may upgrade its Company Standard
to a Sacred Standard for +5 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take Storm of the Emperor's Wrath for +5 points, or Fury of the Ancients for +10 points.
The squad may replace all other wargear with Terminator Armor, storm bolter and power
weapon or power fist for +25 points per model.
Any Veteran in Terminator armor may upgrade the power fist to a chainfist for +5 points.
If the squad selects Terminator armor as an option, then they may be held in Reserve
and may use the Deep Strike special rule.

+ELITE+

Lords of Oblivion Veteran Squad ___________________________________________115 points

Profile: As DA Veterans

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

4 Veteran Space Marines

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter or bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak Grenades

Chainsword

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Combat Squads

True-Grit

Stubborn

Transport:

Veteran Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

The Squad may include five additional Veterans for +115 points.
Any Veteran in power armor may take a combat shield for +5 point per model or a storm
shield for +10 points per model.
Any Veteran in power armor may take meltabombs for +5 points per model.
One Veteran may replace his bolter or chainsword with a flamer for +5 points, a melta-gun
for +10 points or a plasma gun for +15 points.
One Veteran may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter or missile launcher or multi-melta
for +10 points, or a plasma cannon or lascannon for +20 points.
Up to three Veterans may replace their bolter, bolt pistol, or chainsword with one weapon chosen from the following list:
- Storm bolter for +5 points per model.
- Combi-weapon for +10 points per model.
- Power weapon or plasma pistol for +15 points per model.
- Power fist or single lightning claw for +25 points per model.
- Pair of lightning claws or a thunder hammer for +30 points per model.
[*]The Veteran Sergeant may take Might of Heroes for +10 points, or Hellfire for +15 points.

Dreadnought ___________________________________ 125 points

Profile: As Dreadnought

Unit type:

Walker

Wargear:

Assault cannon

Dreadnought close combat weapon (with built-in storm bolter)

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Upgrade to a Venerable Dreadnought for +20 points.
Replace storm bolter with heavy flamer for +5 points.
Replace assault cannon with a multi-melta, a plasma cannon or twin-linked autocannon at no
additional cost in points or a twin-linked lascannon for +20 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.

Transport:

A Dreadnought may select a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport.

Lords of Oblivion Terminator Squad ___________________________________________200 points

Profile: As BA Terminators

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

4 Veteran Space Marines

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Terminator Armor

Storm Bolter and Power Fist (Sergeant has power sword)

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Transport:

Terminator Squads may select a Land Raider or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

Any model may replace its power fist or power sword with a chainfist for +5 points per model.
The entire squad may replace their weapons with a pair of lightning claws or a
thunder hammer and storm shield.
OR
One Terminator may take a Cyclone Missile Launcher for +20 points, or replace his storm
bolter with a heavy flamer for +5 points, or with an assault cannon for +30 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take Might of Heroes for +10 points, or Holocaust for +20 points.

Techmarine _____________________________________________________ 75 points

One Techmarine may be taken for each vehicle chosen from the Elites or Heavy Support sections

of the army list (Not counting dedicated transports). The Techmarine does not use up any FOC

selections but is otherwise treated as a separate Elites unit.

Profile: Same as BA Techmarine

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Artificer armor

Bolter or bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Power weapon

Servo-arm

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Blessing of the Omnissiah

Options:

Replace bolter or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for + 15 points.
May replace Servo-arm with a Servo-harness for +25 points.
May replace bolter with one of the following:
- a stormbolter for +5 points
- combi-weapon for +10 points
May take meltabombs for +5 points.

[*]The Techmarine may be accompanied by up to four Servitors armed with a servo-arm and close

[*]combat weapon for +25 points per model. Any Servitor may replace its servo-arm with a heavy

[*]bolter or multi-melta for free or a plasma cannon for +10 points per model.

Transport:

A Techmarine may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

+TROOPS+

Lords of Oblivion Tactical Squad ___________________________________________100 points

Profile: As Space Marines

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

4 Space Marines

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter

Frag grenades

Krak Grenades

Chainsword

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Combat Squads

True-Grit

Transport:

Tactical Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

The squad may include five additional Space Marines for +85 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolter with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points
or a powerfist for +25 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points.
One Space Marine may replace his bolter with a flamer for +5 points or a melta-gun for
+10 points or a plasma gun for +15 points.
If the squad numbers ten models, then one Space Marine may replace his bolter with a
heavy bolter, multi-melta or missile launcher for +10 points or with a plasma cannon for
+15 points or with a lascannon for +20 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take Storm of the Emperor's Wrath for +5 points, or Word of the Emperor for +10 points.

Scout Squad _____________________________________________________ 80 points

Profile: As DA Scouts

Unit Composition:

1 Scout Sergeant

4 Scouts

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Scout armor

Bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Bolter, shotgun, chainsword or combat blade

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Combat Squads

Infiltrate

Move Through Cover

Options:

The squad may include five additional Scouts for +65 points.
One Scout may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter for +15 points or a missile launcher
for +20 points.
The Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
The Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points or a power
fist for +25 points.
The Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points.
The Sergeant may take Might of Heroes for +10 points, or Vortex of Doom for +20 points.
Any Scout may replace his bolter with a sniper rifle for +5 points per model.

Transport:

Scout Squads may select a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle.

+FAST ATTACK+

Assault Squad ____________________________________________________ 125 points

Profile: As DA Assault Squad

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

4 Space Marines

Unit Type:

Jump Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Chainsword

Special Rules:

Combat Squads

ATSKNF

Deep Strike

Transport:

Assault Squads may remove their jump packs to count as Infantry and then may select a

Rhino or Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle at no additional cost.

Options:

The squad may include five additional Space Marines for +110 points.
Up to two Space Marines may replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points or
with a powerfist for +25 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take a combat shield for +10 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take Storm of the Emperor's Wrath for +5 points, or His Will Be Done for +15 points.

Bike Squadron ____________________________________________________ 110 points

Profile: As BA Bike Squadron

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

2 Space Marine Bikers

Unit Type:

Bike

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolt pistol or chainsword

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Space Marine Bike with twin-linked bolters

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Options:

The squadron may include up to two more Space Marine Bikers for +30 points each.
Up to two Space Marine Bikers may take a flamer for +5 points per model, a melta-gun for
+10 points per model or a plasma gun for +15 points per model.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take a power weapon for +15 points or a powerfist for +25
points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take Storm of the Emperor's Wrath for +5 points, or Holocaust for +15 points.
The squadron may include one Attack Bike with power armor, bolt pistol, frag grenades,
krak grenades, twin-linked bolters, and heavy bolter or multi-melta for +50 points.

Attack Bike Squadron_______________________________________________50 points

Profile: As BA Attack Bike

Unit Composition:

1 Attack Bike

Unit Type:

Bike

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolt pistol

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Space Marine Attack Bike with twin-linked bolters

and a heavy bolter or a multi-melta

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Options:

The squadron may include up to two more Space Marine Attack Bikes for +50 points each.

Land Speeder Squadron ____________________________________________ 65 points

Profile: As BA Speeder Squadron

Unit Composition:

1 Land Speeder

Unit Type:

Vehicle Squadron

Wargear:

Heavy bolter or multi-melta

Options:

The squadron may include up to two more Land Speeders for +65 points each.

One Land Speeder may be given a Typhoon missile launcher for +10 points.

Up to two Land Speeder not equipped with a Typhoon missile launcher may be given an

assault cannon for +35 points per model or a heavy flamer for +10 points per model.

+HEAVY SUPPORT+

Lords of Oblivion Devastator Squad ________________________________________ 100 points

Profile: As Space Marines

Unit Composition:

1 Veteran Sergeant

4 Space Marines

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter

Frag grenades

Krak grenades

Chainsword

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Combat Squads

True-Grit

Transport:

Devastator Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

The squad may include five additional Space Marines for +75 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for +15 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may replace his bolter or bolt pistol with a power weapon for +15
points or a powerfist for +25 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take meltabombs for +5 points.
The Veteran Sergeant may take Word of the Emperor for +10 points, or Fear of the Darkness for +20 points.
Up to four Space Marines may replace their bolter with a weapon from the following list:
- a heavy bolter or multi-melta for +15 points
- a missile launcher for +20 points
- a plasma cannon for +25 points
- a lascannon for +35 points

Lords of Oblivion Land Raider ________________________________________ 250 points

Profile: As DA Land Raider

Special Rules:

Power of the Machine Spirit

Assault Vehicle

Wargear:

Twin-linked heavy bolter

Two twin-linked lascannons

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.

Transport Capacity:

Ten models
Models in Terminator armor count as two models.

Lords of Oblivion Land Raider Crusader ________________________________________ 250 points

Profile: As DA Land Raider Crusader

Special Rules:

Power of the Machine Spirit

Assault Vehicle

Wargear:

Twin-linked Assault Cannon

Two Hurricane Bolters

Multi-Melta

Frag Assault Launchers

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.

Transport Capacity:

Sixteen models
Models in Terminator armor count as two models.

Lords of Oblivion Predator _______________________________________________ 70 points

Profile: As DA Predator

Wargear:

Autocannon

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.
Take a dozer blade for +5 points.
Replace autocannon with twin-linked lascannon for +35 points.
Take side sponsons with heavy bolters for +25 points or with lascannons for +60 points.

Lords of Oblivion Whirlwind ______________________________________________ 85 points

Profile: As DA Whirlwind.

Wargear:

Whirlwind missile launcher

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.
Take a dozer blade for +5 points.

Lords of Oblivion Vindicator _______________________________________________ 125 points

Profile: As DA Vindicator

Wargear:

Demolisher cannon

Storm bolter

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.
Take a dozer blade for +5 points.

+DEDICATED TRANSPORT VEHICLES+

Lords of Oblivion Rhino ___________________________________________________ 35 points

Profile: As DA Rhino

Special Rules:

Repair

Wargear:

Storm bolter

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.
Take a dozer blade for +5 points.

Transport Capacity:

Ten models.

May not carry models in Terminator armor.

Lords of Oblivion Razorback ______________________________________________ 55 points

Profile: As DA Razorback.

Wargear:

Twin-linked heavy bolter

Smoke launchers

Searchlight

Options:

Take a pintle-mounted storm bolter for +5 points.
Take a hunter-killer missile for +15 points.
Take extra armor for +15 points.
Take a dozer blade for +5 points.
Replace twin-linked heavy bolter with a twin-linked lascannon for +30 points.

Transport Capacity:

Six models.

May not carry models in Terminator armor.

Drop Pod _________________________________________________________ 50 points

Profile:

As DA Drop Pod

Wargear:

Storm bolter

Special Rules:

Inertial guidance System

Immobile

Transport Capacity:

Ten models.

Models in Terminator armor count as two models.

May transport a Dreadnought, which counts as ten models.

+SPECIAL CHARACTERS+

Master Chaplain Walker______________________________________________________ 160 points

Profile: As DA Interrogator-Chaplain with +1 A

Unit type:

Bike

Individual:

An army can only include one Master Chaplain Walker

Wargear:

Frag Grenades

Melta-Bombs

Bolt Pistol

Master-Crafted Crozius Arcanum

Rosarius

Power Armor

Space Marine Bike

Options:

None

Special Rules:

Independent Character

Honor of the Chapter

Litanies of Hate

Rider of the Storm

Rider of the Storm: Chaplain Walker is a master of riding his bike, able to navigate dangerous obstacles and perform stunts of daring far beyond what most riders are capable of, even in combat conditions.

Chaplain Walker has the Hit and Run special rule, and confers this ability to any Bike Squadron he joins.

Chief Librarian Filinus____________________________________________________________ 195 points

Profile: As Ezekiel from C: DA

Unit type:

Infantry

Individual:

An army can only include one Chief Librarian Filinus

Wargear:

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

Bolter

Force Weapon

Psychic Hood

Artificier Armor

Options:

None

Special Rules:

Independent Character

True-Grit

Essence of Oblivion

Steeled Resolve

Essence of Oblivion: Librarian Filinus is chief among psykers in a Chapter reknowned for its Libriarians. He is one of the only Lords of Oblivion to have traveled to Oblivion itself, and learned the secrets of the Dremori. His psychic powers are virtually unrivaled as he taps into energies far beyond the comprehension of most mortals.

Librarian Filinus has the following psychic powers, Veil of Time, Vortex of Doom, His Will Be Done, and Purgatus. In addition, he may use up to two powers (including his force weapon) per player turn.

Steeled Resolve: The Librarians of the Lords of Oblivion are charged with safeguarding their fellow Marines from psychic intrusion from enemy forces. They are also capable of bolstering the determination of the Lords of Oblivion with psychic hymns, fueling their resolve. Filinus is able to project this aura at an even greater range than most other Librarians.

Filinus, and all units with at least one model within 12" of him, are Stubborn.

Captain Tiburin__________________________________________________________________ 150 points

Profile: As BA Captain with +1 A

Unit Type:

Infantry

Individual:

An army can only include one Captain Tiburin

Wargear:

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

Artificier Armor

Iron Halo

Claws of Nef'arien

Options:

None

Special Rules:

Independent Character

Stubborn

Rites of Battle

Claws of Nef'arien: During his initiation trials, Tiburin was sent to the southern deserts of Yuran to survive the harsh wilderness there. The Dremori are capable of knowing when humans are bound for great destinies, and will sometimes lend their assisstance. As the young Tiburin made his way through the desert, he was attacked by the Dragon Lord Nef'arien, who spoke to Tiburin of his destiny, and how, if he could earn them, Nef'arien's claws could help him. Undaunted by the sheer size of the creature, Tiburin managed to successfully kill the Dragon Lord, and took his claws to use as his own weapons.

The Claws of Nef'arien count as a pair of master-crafted Lightning Claws which confer +1 Strength.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Allerka

harveydent · December 29, 2007

howcome the tactical squad is 100pts and the additional guys are 85?

Allerka · December 30, 2007

Command, Veteran, Tactical, and Devastator Squads received a small price increase to account for their having True-Grit (And Stubborn in the case of the Veteran Squad, as well).

Allerka · April 13, 2008

Well, after a bit of a hiatus (gearing up for and then subsequently canceling preparations for the Necronomicon tournament), I've put a little more thought and work into the codex for my Chapter. I now have a spiffy PDF you all can download (right-click and choose "Save As" or "Open in new Tab/Window to just view it) and view if you like (It's just over a meg big). Please let me know of any spelling or grammatical errors, as well as any possible balance issues. I think I've got it down pretty well, now the big thing is to find some people willing to playtest it with me.

Here's a basic rundown of how it differs from a standard army.

Psychic powers: Obviously this is one of the major themes of the list. There's a list of the psychic powers available on page three, which lists all powers, and then individual choices in each of the unit entries. It's essentially arranged that each unit has access to a basic power, or an advanced power which is more expensive, but obviously more useful. And Veteran Sergeants test at LD 8 for their psychic tests, to represent them not being as strong as regular Librarians.

True-Grit and Stubborn: Virtually everyone has True-Grit, which causes a little bit of an increase in the basic cost for most infantry units. Captains and Librarians also come with Stubborn, which is also conferred to any unit they join (representing either the steadfastness of the Captains or the psychic shielding of the Librarians). Veteran Squads have both. Scout Squads and Assault Squads remained essentially the same, however (Though I moved Scouts back into the Troops category to represent the Chapter having a higher proportion of them).

Unit Restrictions: As the balancing factor, there's a limit on the number of certain units that can be taken. Most aren't too terrible, the "worst" one is probably the 0-1 restriction on fast attack vehicles. Other units are individually given a 0-1 or 0-2 restriction as well, to represent there being fewer of these units available to the Chapter now.

Vehicles themselves remained relatively unchanged. I also included three special characters, who give a variety of abilities. I hope I didn't make them too "no-brainer"-ish, and the regular HQ choices are still viable (I think they are, as each of them has a certain limitation that might not fit in with a desired army theme).

Anyway, please let me know what you all think. Thank you.

Allerka · May 4, 2008

Alright, I've done some revisions to the codex based on playtesting, as follows:

Fixed some typos.
Removed the Hellfire power, as only the Veteran Squad Sergeant had it, and replaced it in the unit entry with Vortex of Doom. This reduces the total list of powers in the codex to 10.
Gave ICs and Scout Squads the option to take teleport homers, as I realized they were utterly absent from the codex. I realize the DA/BA lists are also lacking them, except for Ravenwing squads, but personally I find this stupid, especially since CSMs still have homers (in the form of icons).

The new PDF can be downloaded from the same place as before.

I've managed to get in two games so far, one against SMs, another against CSMs, and the list did fairly well against both, while still retaining a considerable challenge for me (Normally when I play myself on VASSAL, my CSMs utterly destroy my SMs), and both players (along with a few people at my store that have read over the list) find it all pretty well balanced, which is good to know. I'll likely have to revise it some more once 5th edition comes out, but I'll worry about that then. In the meantime, feel free to read it and let me know what you all think. Thanks again to everyone who's helped me make this possible.

Brother Tyler · May 4, 2008

I just printed it up and will try to take a loot at it over the next couple of days (though I'm overdue on checking out something that I promised for another member, so his project has priority). Do you want the Microsoft Word Document for the redux speculation? That might be easier to modify than the pdf.

Allerka · May 4, 2008

Sure, couldn't hurt to take a look at it. I keep my codex in Word format on my computer, then save it into a PDF for uploading to the web here, so I can tweak it and do whatever I need to with it. We've only got a few months to go until the new codex is out, anyway, so it shouldn't be too difficult to manage until then. Thanks.

harveydent · May 6, 2008

HEY, i'm so glad that this project has continued to move forward! i had forgotten about it completely, but now that i've seen the PDF i'm pretty stoked <_<

i have a few comments:

true grit - i think this USR may be going away. however, if you desire to keep it, i would say that you should either write a new version of it or just remove it altogether. since they seem to be doing away with the whole concept of 'my model can only carry X amount of weapons' i would say it might just be easier to give all your characters/marines a bolter AND bolt pistol. that's pretty much what true grit does anyway.

stubborn - this is another USR that is changing. it will now be like the old space wolf rule that ignores outnumbering modifiers for LD tests (just like Stubborn in WHFB). while this is ultimately the most awesome thing possible for CODEX:IRON HANDS that bannus is working on, i'm not sure it's within the flavor of what you're doing here.

(keep in mind that these 5th edition changes are not set in stone, and that i'm just going off of what i've heard/read from that pdf)

dreadnought - how cool would it be if the dreadnought could use psychic powers? you could change the entry so that there was a further upgrade (just like the BA dread) that allows you to make a venerable dread a psyker, giving him holocaust for +20 points, or his will be done for +10. just say that if he takes perils of the warp, he takes a glancing hit. those are just ideas... so whatever :huh:

devastator squad - the first thing i thought of when i read this entry was "i'll put three of these 10-man units in rhinos and run them around with Fear of the Darkness." i know i suggested this power for them initially because it allows them to chase off units that are trying to get close to them and assault them, but i am having second thoughts because its implications are so far away from what they were intended to be. maybe this one needs to be more expensive if it's available to a unit you can take 3 of... i guess it just needs testing.

additionally, i just want to add that having so many units with access to Fury of the Ancients worries me. i'll have to test that one out as well since it's just a disgustingly powerful psychic ability.

good job on all this!

Edited May 6, 2008 by harveydent

Allerka · May 6, 2008

Harveydent, thanks again for your feedback. Lemme go down the list.

true grit - i think this USR may be going away. however, if you desire to keep it, i would say that you should either write a new version of it or just remove it altogether. since they seem to be doing away with the whole concept of 'my model can only carry X amount of weapons' i would say it might just be easier to give all your characters/marines a bolter AND bolt pistol. that's pretty much what true grit does anyway.

Basically I was trying to make them stronger in CC. Though bolters and BPs are standard, this really doesn't help them in CC much (especially if they get charged). The only other two options I see as possible are WS 5 or making them Ultra-Grit (bolters, BPs, AND CCWs), but both seem a little too powerful. Well, Ultra-Grit might still be doable, and they'd still be more expensive than CSMs anyway. I'll have to think about it. Keep in mind, too, True-Grit will likely still exist until a new Daemonhunters codex is released.

stubborn - this is another USR that is changing. it will now be like the old space wolf rule that ignores outnumbering modifiers for LD tests (just like Stubborn in WHFB). while this is ultimately the most awesome thing possible for CODEX:IRON HANDS that bannus is working on, i'm not sure it's within the flavor of what you're doing here.

Indeed, Stubborn is changing. For now, though, it's not. Once 5th edition comes out, I'll look at how it'll change and figure out what to do. I might swap it out for Fearless.

dreadnought - how cool would it be if the dreadnought could use psychic powers? you could change the entry so that there was a further upgrade (just like the BA dread) that allows you to make a venerable dread a psyker, giving him holocaust for +20 points, or his will be done for +10. just say that if he takes perils of the warp, he takes a glancing hit. those are just ideas... so whatever ;)

That is a rather intriguing idea. Certainly gives them a little more flavor. I'll tool around with it some.

devastator squad - the first thing i thought of when i read this entry was "i'll put three of these 10-man units in rhinos and run them around with Fear of the Darkness." i know i suggested this power for them initially because it allows them to chase off units that are trying to get close to them and assault them, but i am having second thoughts because its implications are so far away from what they were intended to be. maybe this one needs to be more expensive if it's available to a unit you can take 3 of... i guess it just needs testing.

Hmm, I hadn't even thought about that. Silly me and my assuming units would be used reasonably (and I don't even work for GW! :P). FotD is still +20 points per Vet. SGT, and it still only has a radius of 12", so the squad would need to get pretty close to use it. Not to mention that hampers the army's firepower considerably. Still, I suppose it'd be best to not even make it possible. I could remove transport options for Dev Squads, but that seems wrong. Alternatively, I could throw in a 0-2 restriction on them, which would tone it down a bit.

additionally, i just want to add that having so many units with access to Fury of the Ancients worries me. i'll have to test that one out as well since it's just a disgustingly powerful psychic ability.

The only ones that can get it are Captains, Librarians, and Command Squad Veteran Sergeants. At most, a given list will have three people with it (one of which is testing at LD 8 for the power), which is one more than the current C:SM. I could raise the cost to help inhibit that (make it 10 points for the Captain and 15 for the Vet. SGT instead).

We'll likely be going through a bunch more changes once 5th edition, the new C:SM, and C:SW comes out. Still, I've enjoyed working on this, and it's pretty awesome to have something like this to use. :)

harveydent · May 6, 2008

true grit

Basically I was trying to make them stronger in CC. Though bolters and BPs are standard, this really doesn't help them in CC much (especially if they get charged). The only other two options I see as possible are WS 5 or making them Ultra-Grit (bolters, BPs, AND CCWs), but both seem a little too powerful. Well, Ultra-Grit might still be doable, and they'd still be more expensive than CSMs anyway. I'll have to think about it. Keep in mind, too, True-Grit will likely still exist until a new Daemonhunters codex is released.

i think the important thing is that they look a bit more like the standard marine template that's been put in place by C:DA and C:BA... but it's your baby ;)

stubborn

Indeed, Stubborn is changing. For now, though, it's not. Once 5th edition comes out, I'll look at how it'll change and figure out what to do. I might swap it out for Fearless.

yeah, this is just one of those things we'll have to wait on.

dreadnought

That is a rather intriguing idea. Certainly gives them a little more flavor. I'll tool around with it some.

yeah, who better to exemplify the strengths of the chapter than a 1000 year old dreadnought!

devastator squad

Hmm, I hadn't even thought about that. Silly me and my assuming units would be used reasonably (and I don't even work for GW! :P). FotD is still +20 points per Vet. SGT, and it still only has a radius of 12", so the squad would need to get pretty close to use it. Not to mention that hampers the army's firepower considerably. Still, I suppose it'd be best to not even make it possible. I could remove transport options for Dev Squads, but that seems wrong. Alternatively, I could throw in a 0-2 restriction on them, which would tone it down a bit.

i'll test it and see what i can do with it, given the existing conditions. i would just run 3x ten-man dev. squads with powerfist sgt. and FotD in rhinos. run them around the table doing FotD all day. see what i can chase off the table ;) heavy weapons? we're a lords of oblivion dev. squad! we don't need heavy weapons! hopefully it will prove unwieldly - perhaps there's another psychic power they could use that wouldn't be quite as extreme.

Fury of the Ancients

The only ones that can get it are Captains, Librarians, and Command Squad Veteran Sergeants. At most, a given list will have three people with it (one of which is testing at LD 8 for the power), which is one more than the current C:SM. I could raise the cost to help inhibit that (make it 10 points for the Captain and 15 for the Vet. SGT instead).

this is just one of those things that is sooo powerful that you may want to limit it even more. the power itself is really, really strong. but anyhow, i'll take a stab at using it abusively and i'll let you know if it needs toning down.

We'll likely be going through a bunch more changes once 5th edition, the new C:SM, and C:SW comes out. Still, I've enjoyed working on this, and it's pretty awesome to have something like this to use. ;)

sweet.

Allerka · May 6, 2008

i think the important thing is that they look a bit more like the standard marine template that's been put in place by C:DA and C:BA... but it's your baby ;)

Exactly. :rolleyes: Plus I've been using True-Grit for over four years now, and I don't feel like re-adjusting to only having one attack (it makes me feel...useless :P).

Thanks for testing the powers, too, to see how broken they can get. I'll see if I can get in a game or two myself. I've got three different leagues I'm competing in right now, though (a state championship tournament, that Lucky 13's league, and a local club competition), so I might just have to VASSAL it a couple times.

Allerka · May 9, 2008

Alright, couple more tweaks.

Fixed some more typos. If you happen to find any others, let me know, so I can fix them.
Raised the cost of Fury of the Ancients for Captains and Command Squad Sergeants to +10 points, to make it more expensive.
Decided against psychic powers for Dreadnoughts, as there really aren't any suitable powers, plus it kinda screws with the mechanics for Dreadnoughts.

I've talked with a couple other people, and they all agreed that a "Triple FotD" tactic would be unviable due to the almost total lack of heavy weapons the army would have as a result, plus the fact that most armies are relatively immune to LD anyway. The "Triple FotA" tactic, though, that's another story. That one, I'm thinking we can replace the CS SGT's access to it with something else, but I'm not sure what else would work (Since I wanted to set him apart from the 1st Company folks).

harveydent · May 10, 2008

The following was written several days ago before playing two testing games:

So, here’s the army list I put together to test the power of Fury of the Ancients. My concern was that having a preponderance of psykers all using Fury of the Ancients represented a threat to game balance. Why, you may ask, is this army list a problem? Technically you can accomplish this with the current C:SM using command squads and attached Librarians (4x Epistolary w/Fury of the Ancients, one of which is Tigurius). But this list can have four separate units roaming around using the power from four different angles (as opposed to having two units with the capability to use the power four times in total). I have a sneaking suspicion that FotA is going to be phased out when the 5th Edition C:SM is released, but for now I suppose we can work on making C:LoO as balanced as possible with the psychic power selection available. There is also the possibility that psychic powers and new wargear can be developed to supplement the list, but that’s probably somewhere further down the road.

HQ

Company Captain – 165

105 + 30 (Lightning Claws) + 20 (Jump Pack) + 5 (Fury of the Ancients) + 5 (Meltabombs)

Librarian – 150

125 + 20 (Jump Pack) + 0 (Fury of the Ancients) + 0 (Might of Heroes) + 5 (Meltabombs)

Command Squad #1 (5) – 180

105 + 10 (Fury of the Ancients) + 25 (Powerfist) + 5 (Flamer) + 35 (Rhino)

Command Squad #2 (5) – 180

105 + 10 (Fury of the Ancients) + 25 (Powerfist) + 5 (Flamer) + 35 (Rhino)

TROOPS

Scout Squad #1 (10) – 205

145 + 20 (Missile Launcher) + 20 (4x Sniper Rifle) + 20 (Vortex of Doom)

Scout Squad #2 (10) – 205

145 + 20 (Missile Launcher) + 20 (4x Sniper Rifle) + 20 (Vortex of Doom)

FAST ATTACK

Attack Bike Squad #1 (3) – 150

150 + 0 (3x Multi-Melta)

Attack Bike Squad #2 (3) – 150

150 + 0 (3x Multi-Melta)

Land Speeder Squadron (1) – 75

65 + 0 (Multi-Melta) + 10 (Heavy Flamer)

HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator #1 – 130

125 + 5 (Dozer Blade)

Vindicator #2 – 130

125 + 5 (Dozer Blade)

Vindicator #3 – 130

125 + 5 (Dozer Blade)

Whenever I test a new list, I tend to focus on one central theme and surround it with things that bolster it and make it even more effective. Four uses of FotA each turn is a great capability to have for anti-troop and anti-light vehicle shooting. It’s also extremely effective against armies with mid to lower leadership (anything that isn’t at least LD10 across the board). Since FotA causes anything it hits to make a pinning check without the pre-requisite of causing a casualty, it’s going to eventually pin things that don’t get pinned very often… you just can’t rely on it to do so. However, an army with majority toughness of 3, or with 5+ or worse armor saves is going to suffer regardless of how good their leadership is. The obvious drawbacks to relying on FotA four times each turn are: 1) fearless units 2) units in transports of AV12+ 3) high toughness, heavily armored units like Carnifexes, etc. There are obviously more than just these, but I’ll attempt some sort of brevity. Remedying these issues is usually pretty easy – include lots of low AP weaponry in your list. If you can’t hurt it with FotA, you’ll definitely be able to hurt it with meltaguns. And if you can’t hurt it with meltaguns or FotA, then you’re going to be in trouble. Obviously this is a shooting list, and obviously it’s going to suffer against anything that’s specifically designed to disrupt psychic powers like a Psychic Hood or Runes of Whatever.

The following was written today

Before writing the full report for my two testing games, I read Allerka’s most recent post. I must counter the assumption that the Fear of the Darkness list would not have any heavy weapons. I submit the following list for testing:

HQ

Chief Librarian Filinus – 185

Librarian – 160

125 + 15 (Fear of the Darkness) + 0 (Fury of the Ancients) + 20 (Jump Pack)

TROOPS

Tactical Squad #1 (5) – 145

100 + 5 (Flamer) + 5 (Storm of the Emperor’s Wrath) + 35 (Rhino)

Tactical Squad #2 (5) – 145

100 + 5 (Flamer) + 5 (Storm of the Emperor’s Wrath) + 35 (Rhino)

Tactical Squad #3 (5) – 150

100 + 10 (Meltagun) + 5 (Meltabombs) + 35 (Rhino)

Tactical Squad #4 (5) – 150

100 + 10 (Meltagun) + 5 (Meltabombs) + 35 (Rhino)

FAST ATTACK

Attack Bike Squad #1 (3) – 150

150 + 0 (3x Multi-melta)

Attack Bike Squad #2 (3) – 150

150 + 0 (3x Multi-melta)

Attack Bike Squad #3 (3) – 150

150 + 0 (3x Multi-melta)

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad #1 (5) – 155

100 + 20 (Fear of the Darkness) + 35 (Rhino)

Devastator Squad #2 (5) – 155

100 + 20 (Fear of the Darkness) + 35 (Rhino)

Devastator Squad #3 (5) – 155

100 + 20 (Fear of the Darkness) + 35 (Rhino)

This is a ‘drive by’ list, and its strengths come from its high mobility and extreme prejudice against non-fearless troops. Much like the Fury of the Ancients list, this list must destroy vehicles to get to their vulnerable cargo. What better way to do this than a host of fast-moving, high-strength AP1 weaponry that gets additional armor penetration bonuses at a twelve inch range? It’s important for the list to have many small, mounted squads for several reasons – 1) the more transports, the more fast moving models there are to chase fleeing enemies off the table, 2) the smaller the unit, the lower the chance of the unit being locked in combat – it will more likely be wiped out, leaving its attackers vulnerable to shooting in the following turn, and 3) the more transports you have, the better you can screen the transports that are carrying critical cargo.

It’s possible to make a more ‘transport-centric’ list that involves dreadnoughts and techmarines, but I feel that dreadnought survivability and mobility is much too low for the needs of this list.

Battle Reports coming soon!

Finally, I want to say that with the -1 to psychic tests penalty balancing out the huge number of psychic abilities this army can churn out, I think there’s a need to re-adjust the costs of its psychic powers… as well as possibly writing new psychic powers that emphasize the strengths of the codex.

Allerka · May 10, 2008

Well, I hate to break it, but both lists are actually illegal. There's a 0-1 restriction on Command Squads, and a 0-1 restriction on fast attack vehicles (meaning you can only take one attack bike squad or land speeder squad).

Finally, I want to say that with the -1 to psychic tests penalty balancing out the huge number of psychic abilities this army can churn out, I think there’s a need to re-adjust the costs of its psychic powers… as well as possibly writing new psychic powers that emphasize the strengths of the codex.

What do you have in mind? I've done three games with the list so far, trying to take as many powers as possible. The LD 8 on Vet SGTs doesn't make a huge difference compared to LD 9, many powers have their utility (Storm definitely makes up for losing a second special weapon I normally have with traits, and the "assault" unit powers all seem to work well). It doesn't break the game in either direction, and adds a new dimension of play for the army. Plus, we've already got 10 psychic powers in the codex, which is more than any other army in the game (even more than the Eldar), baring maybe the new daemons. So I don't really want to add more powers to the list.

Though, if we did all-new powers, what would you suggest? I suppose I could start tossing ideas around for new powers...

harveydent · May 10, 2008

Well, I hate to break it, but both lists are actually illegal. There's a 0-1 restriction on Command Squads, and a 0-1 restriction on fast attack vehicles (meaning you can only take one attack bike squad or land speeder squad).

then i would just take a big fat assault squad in one slot, and 3 bikes in the other (with multi-meltas), then re-distribute the remaining points accordingly. my point was just that there are TONS of options for heavy weapons in any given space marine list, and they're even available in a multitude of ways. just because most people don't own 9 attack bikes doesn't mean that taking them in an army isn't an option.

What do you have in mind?

i'll get to that later :rolleyes:

I've done three games with the list so far, trying to take as many powers as possible. The LD 8 on Vet SGTs doesn't make a huge difference compared to LD 9, many powers have their utility (Storm definitely makes up for losing a second special weapon I normally have with traits, and the "assault" unit powers all seem to work well).

see, this is the thing: if this list is supposed to incorporate a bunch of psykers that all have and use their powers, then i should have incentive to take as many powers as possible. currently there isn't a lot of incentive to take them unless i'm using specific units, or because a specific power is really, really good.

it's also possible that i got the wrong impression of the list before, and i'm just now noticing a few things... blah, rambling.

It doesn't break the game in either direction, and adds a new dimension of play for the army. Plus, we've already got 10 psychic powers in the codex, which is more than any other army in the game (even more than the Eldar), baring maybe the new daemons. So I don't really want to add more powers to the list.

Though, if we did all-new powers, what would you suggest? I suppose I could start tossing ideas around for new powers...

it definitely adds new dimensions, i'll give you that! i think what might be throwing me off is that in C:SM, C:DA and C:BA the librarian(s) were all something special. there could be one or two of them in the army, and they got these powerful special abilities. they were truly unique and special models in your army, and they could have drastic affects on a game. in this codex, the psykers are widely distributed and common. they all have abilities that can make them super-special. they all have two extra 'wargear' selections they can choose from.

if i were to make a comparison (and possibly a suggestion), let's look at the Thousand Sons squad from C:CSM. their champion has a set of wargear that can't be changed...instead he gets to pick his powers. however, there is only one type of 1kson squad so it doesn't matter so much that all the champions are relatively the same... unlike C:LoO where there's a psyker leading every squad. AND every squad has its normal role in the game (dev squads get heavy weapons, assault squads get jump packs and are good in HtH, etc).

i would say that if you wanted to tailor the list more closely to what GW would do with it, you would do the following:

1) come up with a way to simplify the wargear/psychic powers/options for each veteran sgt.

2) find ways that the sgt model can lead his squad and not have his role conflict with normal objectives for a squad of his type.

3) create new psychic powers to accomplish #2, as well as to distinguish C:LoO from other imperial armies.

Edited May 10, 2008 by harveydent

Allerka · May 11, 2008

then i would just take a big fat assault squad in one slot, and 3 bikes in the other (with multi-meltas), then re-distribute the remaining points accordingly. my point was just that there are TONS of options for heavy weapons in any given space marine list, and they're even available in a multitude of ways. just because most people don't own 9 attack bikes doesn't mean that taking them in an army isn't an option.

True, but the Assault Squad isn't nearly as effective at taking down vehicles as a trio of Attack Bikes. But I thought I'd point out that the most FotA's you could get is 3, not 4. Granted, that's still a few to have, but... ;)

see, this is the thing: if this list is supposed to incorporate a bunch of psykers that all have and use their powers, then i should have incentive to take as many powers as possible. currently there isn't a lot of incentive to take them unless i'm using specific units, or because a specific power is really, really good.

it's also possible that i got the wrong impression of the list before, and i'm just now noticing a few things... blah, rambling.

Well, the psychic powers are designed to augment the SGT's abilities, not replace his intended role. If I had wanted to completely change the purpose of the SGTs, I'd have given them the hoods and/or force weapons, too. I tried to pick powers that fit the "theme" or "purpose" of the squad. The Tactical Squad gets two cheap powers that augment either its shooting or its assault ability (Storm is almost more like a second special weapon, it's about as effective as a melta or plasma, and Word helps protect the squad from being charged). The Assault Squad gets abilities that help it perform better in assault (whether a couple extra wounds dealt before assaulting or the extra "wounds dealt" power). The Devastator Squad gets defensive abilities that help it ensure it's not charged and wiped out by a flanking unit. Granted, some of the units are harder to pick suitable powers for, and the choices I've made might not fit the best. I also don't want to make it a "no-brainer" for EVERY SGT to be a psyker. It should be something special you can take if you want, but not required. Kinda like Terminator Armor in Bannus' Iron Hands codex. It's fluffy and neat, but not necessarily something you want or should take with every squad.

it definitely adds new dimensions, i'll give you that! i think what might be throwing me off is that in C:SM, C:DA and C:BA the librarian(s) were all something special. there could be one or two of them in the army, and they got these powerful special abilities. they were truly unique and special models in your army, and they could have drastic affects on a game. in this codex, the psykers are widely distributed and common. they all have abilities that can make them super-special. they all have two extra 'wargear' selections they can choose from.

if i were to make a comparison (and possibly a suggestion), let's look at the Thousand Sons squad from C:CSM. their champion has a set of wargear that can't be changed...instead he gets to pick his powers. however, there is only one type of 1kson squad so it doesn't matter so much that all the champions are relatively the same... unlike C:LoO where there's a psyker leading every squad. AND every squad has its normal role in the game (dev squads get heavy weapons, assault squads get jump packs and are good in HtH, etc).

i would say that if you wanted to tailor the list more closely to what GW would do with it, you would do the following:

1) come up with a way to simplify the wargear/psychic powers/options for each veteran sgt.

2) find ways that the sgt model can lead his squad and not have his role conflict with normal objectives for a squad of his type.

3) create new psychic powers to accomplish #2, as well as to distinguish C:LoO from other imperial armies.

Hmm, I think you may have something there. While Librarians in DA/BA armies aren't quite as powerful as in C:SM, they're still there. However, the advantage Librarians have over these veteran sergeants is still their hoods and force weapons. Plus, in C:LoO, they're still ICs, they get more powers and can be tailored to a variety of roles. I never really considered the 1K Sons entry. However, they have force weapons. Plus, a set list of wargear for most squads would seriously hamper both their flexibility and their modeling potential (I know I sure don't want six Tactical Squads with all PWs or PFs).

However, I think you may be on to something. Psychic powers specifically tailored to synergize with the role of a squad would be vastly preferable to random powers thrown in there. What ones work, though? I think the Tactical Squads, Librarians, Chaplains, and Terminator Squads, are the only units whose powers truly work within the roles of those squads. Obviously, that doesn't really work for the other units.

What could we use, though? I had tried to stick with "official" Imperial powers because I knew they were balanced (at least, in the sense of Librarians using them), and it'd help make the codex easier to swallow for finding a game. But, the powers were written for an IC to use them. Even with high costs and testing at LD 8, the powers don't entirely work. So, maybe making some new ones would be the way to go. What would work, though? What would fit within the theme of the army?

The Lords of Oblivion are supposed to be masters of mental warfare. Not only will you have Space Marines coming after you, but you'll have to worry about some of them using psychic powers to make themselves even deadlier, or to sow panic and confusion in your ranks (whether through illusions or manipulation of reality), or to protect them against your own attacks. Along these lines of "mental warfare", the only current powers that really fit are FotD, Word, His Will, and Purgatus. I think we can keep Storm, though, as it's generic enough to be viable in most of the places it's used.

As for the rest... what can we do? Perhaps some of the psychic powers we give them won't require tests? They're always active, kind of like Eldar warlock powers. Like a power for a Devastator Squad that gives them something akin to Shrouding. Or a power for an Assault Squad that gives +1 attack on the turn they charge (That one would need a test, though, I think). Now that I think about it, maybe Warlocks are the direction we should go. They can be attached to some squads in the army, and can have a psychic power that's always active, but none of them are overly powerful (A 5+ cover save, a template attack, re-roll an LD check, and +1 I and WS).

But, yeah. I think maybe new psychic powers might just be what we need. To be honest, though, I'm inclined to wait for 5th edition to come out, so we can at least know how the rule structure is going to change (not to mention see what happens to all those wonderful USRs). Still, gives us plenty of time to come up with ideas. I still think we should with the the basic/advanced power scheme, for the choice it gives.

Allerka · May 24, 2008

Well, after thinking about it some more, I've got some rough ideas for possible powers for the different units. Most of these powers are brand new, and are along the lines of the squad's given role, so they're augmented in a way befitting the squad's role, not to mention not nearly as game-altering as the previous selection. I think we can stick with the two tier system (e.g. may take X power for +10 points OR Y power for +20 points). Keep in mind, too, these are just rough ideas, I have no idea as yet which powers for each unit would be in either tier.

Commander -

Role: Support character, decent CC powers, improves army leadership

Powers: One unit per turn may re-roll a LD check,

Rites of Battle already gives the whole army LD 10, and they're Stubborn. So, a power to boost the army's overall LD wouldn't really do much, but it might still be something. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else could be viable. Maybe a shooting power and a CC power instead.

Chaplain -

Role: Fighter-type, strong CC powers, Fearless

Powers: Might of Heroes, permanent negative modifier to enemy's LD roll at end of combat, other side always counts as losing combat

This one's pretty straightforward, given the Chaplain's pure CC role. I like the first two, the third is a possibility, but I think that'd be a bit too powerful, honestly.

Command Squad -

Role: Support ICs, powerful CC unit

Powers: Might of Heroes, Furious Charge, +1 attack, 5+/6+ Inv. in CC

The Command Squad is undoubtedly the CC monster unit in the SM army, with multiple PWs and PFs, plus whatever you have on your IC. While they can be tailored to be shooty instead, I've never seen anyone do this, so CC powers seem to be the way to go.

Terminator Squad -

Role: Varied, general support unit, decent at shooting or CC

Powers: 4+ Inv. save,

Regular Terminator Squads are a decent support unit, capable of doing fairly well in shooting or CC, so perhaps a shooting power and a CC power might be the way to go. I do, however, like the idea of improving their survivability, as that'd make them a little more worth their points (an issue they currently have).

Terminator Assault Squad -

Role: CC support, powerful in CC

Powers: 4+ Inv. save, Furious Charge,

Obviously another dedicated CC unit, same deal as with the regular Termies, plus giving them the chance at having Furious Charge again.

Veteran Squad -

Role: Tactical Squad with extra options, can be powerful in CC

Powers:

I honestly have no idea what to put here. They're like Tactical Squads, but with more options, but I've never really seen them used before, and gearing them towards CC makes them almost prohibitively expensive.

Tactical Squad -

Role: Flexible general-purpose unit, can be semi-tailored to various roles. Powers should be cheap due to high numbers of Tac Squads

Powers: Storm of the Emperor's Wrath,

As the Role section says, any powers we give Tactical Squads should be relatively cheap, so as to not be a points sink should a player wish to give the power to multiple squads. Storm of the Emperor's Wrath and Word of the Emperor seemed like a good selection for them, but I wonder if there's anything else we could give them.

Scout Squad -

Role: CC or shooting support squad, can infiltrate and skirmish with or snipe units

Powers: +1 cover save,

They can be used as skirmishers, or snipers. A +1 cover save seems to fit, but I can't think of much else.

Assault Squad -

Role: Fast-moving CC unit, decent in CC, can do some damage to vehicles as well

Powers: +1 attack, His Will be Done,

Another CC unit, this one geared more towards taking down infantry (though I use them for tank-hunting a lot with melta-bombs), is quite nasty when supported by a Chaplain. Not sure what else to give them.

Bike Squad -

Role: Fast-moving unit, good at tank-hunting or tying up units in CC

Powers: Tank Hunters, -1 to enemy WS

The real "tank hunters" unit of the list, also good at tying up low-strength units in CC (Where their T 5 makes them nearly invincible) for a good chunk of the game. Couldn't come up with much for them, though.

Devastator Squad -

Role: Fire-support unit, lots of heavy weapons

Powers: Shrouding/Night Fight, +1 cover save, re-roll one miss per turn

This one was probably the easiest, improving their ability to withstand enemy fire or to dish out punishment, both of which would be tempting to use.

harveydent · May 24, 2008

i have a few ideas that i'll post in a couple days when i get some time. i've been mulling over them for some time now.

Allerka · May 25, 2008

Minor update: Since it appears the True-Grit USR is being completely removed from 5th Edition, I'm re-vamping the codex to remove it as well, and have each unit being "Ultra-Grit" instead (that is, bolters, BPs, and CCWs). Unit costs will remain the same (they're already slightly higher than standard costs for the True-Grit, so I see no reason to change this). I don't see any need to worry about this aspect of the codex any further, so we can focus entirely on the psychic powers.

harveydent · June 16, 2008

i have played a bunch of games with the 5th rules, and i think there need to be a few changes for this army. one of the biggest things is protection for a veteran sgt. because he's literally a special character now. you pay a lot of points for him and he is nowhere near the vulnerability level of a regular troops - in fact, with this army i would probably never take less than a 10-man unit due to the wound allocation rules. i just wouldn't want to lose my psykers! :P

also, close combat is a very, very different venture than it was in 4th. before, if you wanted a solid close combat unit, that unit had to fulfill several criteria:

1) the ability to get to the opponent (or guarantee that they charge before being charged)

2) the ability to kill a lot of enemy models (sometimes that happens as a result of a matchup like IG vs. SM, but most of the time it happens because of power weapons)

3) the ability to charge a unit and either A-stay locked with that unit during the opponent's turn or B-consolidate into another unit.

now it's not so much about winning a combat, as much as it is about what you do WHEN you win a combat (or controlling when you win a combat).

for instance, if you charge an enemy unit with a dedicated close combat unit, you're probably going to win combat, crush the enemy, and be stuck out in the open waiting to get shot. so it is preferable to only cause enough casualties to cause a draw, or not win by enough to make the opponent flee. then, when your opponent's turn comes around, you aren't out in the open getting shot. perhaps other enemy units will charge into the existing combat, killing yours off and leaving themselves open for shooting. so it's either A-smash and hope for the best, B-prolong and then re-assault another unit on your turn, or C-prolong and bait.

how does this translate into the LoO psychic powers? you can design your psychic powers around a whole new group of close combat tactics.

there's already the power 'word of the emperor' which is great for 'smash,' so you probably want some powers that emphasize the two 'prolong' tactics.

a great opportunity (that you mentioned before) is that you can change your veteran sgt. psykers so that they work like warlocks. some of their powers are always in effect, while some of them work like destructor (hvy flamer shooting that requires no psychic test).

i would highly recommend using this format from now on, but we have to find a way to balance them out both on a power level basis and on a fluff basis (they can't work just like a warlock because they're not eldar and you need to be able to stop their powers like every other SM psychic power, and if they are easier to use than a regular psychic power they need to cost more).

more to come :huh:

Allerka · June 17, 2008

i have played a bunch of games with the 5th rules, and i think there need to be a few changes for this army. one of the biggest things is protection for a veteran sgt. because he's literally a special character now. you pay a lot of points for him and he is nowhere near the vulnerability level of a regular troops - in fact, with this army i would probably never take less than a 10-man unit due to the wound allocation rules. i just wouldn't want to lose my psykers! ;)

You have a good point there. I like the psychic powers for everyone, but it certainly doesn't help paying another 20 points for a model only to have it repeatedly go splat in turn 1 because of the wound allocations.

also, close combat is a very, very different venture than it was in 4th. before, if you wanted a solid close combat unit, that unit had to fulfill several criteria:
1) the ability to get to the opponent (or guarantee that they charge before being charged)

2) the ability to kill a lot of enemy models (sometimes that happens as a result of a matchup like IG vs. SM, but most of the time it happens because of power weapons)

3) the ability to charge a unit and either A-stay locked with that unit during the opponent's turn or B-consolidate into another unit.

now it's not so much about winning a combat, as much as it is about what you do WHEN you win a combat (or controlling when you win a combat).

for instance, if you charge an enemy unit with a dedicated close combat unit, you're probably going to win combat, crush the enemy, and be stuck out in the open waiting to get shot. so it is preferable to only cause enough casualties to cause a draw, or not win by enough to make the opponent flee. then, when your opponent's turn comes around, you aren't out in the open getting shot. perhaps other enemy units will charge into the existing combat, killing yours off and leaving themselves open for shooting. so it's either A-smash and hope for the best, B-prolong and then re-assault another unit on your turn, or C-prolong and bait.

Indeed, the mechanics have definitely changed to make it a much faster and brutal affair. I don't think I've had a combat yet that lasted more than two full turns, except for one that was due to mostly bad rolling on both sides.

how does this translate into the LoO psychic powers? you can design your psychic powers around a whole new group of close combat tactics.

there's already the power 'word of the emperor' which is great for 'smash,' so you probably want some powers that emphasize the two 'prolong' tactics.

I hadn't entirely realized that. That gives me some more ideas on powers...

a great opportunity (that you mentioned before) is that you can change your veteran sgt. psykers so that they work like warlocks. some of their powers are always in effect, while some of them work like destructor (hvy flamer shooting that requires no psychic test).

i would highly recommend using this format from now on, but we have to find a way to balance them out both on a power level basis and on a fluff basis (they can't work just like a warlock because they're not eldar and you need to be able to stop their powers like every other SM psychic power, and if they are easier to use than a regular psychic power they need to cost more).

The balancing factor for Warlocks isn't so much that their powers are expensive (well, Embolden is, but the others aren't), but that they're definitely "minor" powers. I think we should try to keep the powers relatively cheap (no higher than 20 points), though this would likely require keeping their effects to a minimum, too. I dunno about making them vulnerable to psychic hoods, either, that might drive the two players crazy with having to take up to a dozen tests per turn. Perhaps we give them a separate "instability" chart or something, roll a D6 for each unit, on a 1 their power doesn't work this turn (to represent them not quite having full control over their powers)? Seems like something like that would go a little faster.

Then, of course, there's the upcoming codex, which'll likely require a full overhaul of some units (such as Veterans, Scouts, and Command Squads). In fact, I'll probably have to overhaul all the powers with the new codex, given how much SMs are likely changing with it. We'll worry about that then, though. For now, I'll do some more brainstorming and see what I can come up with in terms of new powers.

Allerka · June 17, 2008

Ok, after some more thought, here's my ideas for the different units, with their Tier 1 and Tier 2 powers, with the suggested costs listed after each. We'll worry about power names later.

Captain

1: One unit in the army per game turn may re-roll a failed leadership check. (10)

2: May re-deploy D3 units before Turn 1. (20)

Chaplain

1: Might of Heroes. (10)

2: His Will Be Done. (20)

Command Squad

1: May re-roll one missed to-hit or to-wound roll per round of combat. (10)

2: The squad has Furious Charge. (20)

Terminator Squad

1: Squad has BS of 5. (10)

2: Squad's Inv. save becomes 4+. (20)

Terminator Assault Squad

1: Squad has WS of 5. (10)

2: Squad's Inv. save becomes 4+. (20)

Veteran Squad

1: Bolt Weapons become AP4. (10)

2: Squad gets +1 Attack. (20)

Tactical Squad

1: Storm of the Emperor's Wrath. (5)

2: The squad wins drawn combats by one wound. (10)

Scout Squad

1: Squad gains Stealth. (10)

2: Squad is immune to dangerous terrain. (15)

Assault Squad

1: Enemy models get -1 Attack in CC. (10)

2: Enemy unit tests at an extra -1 LD if they lose CC. (15)

Bike Squad

1: May re-roll one failed to-hit in CC. (5)

2: Enemy models are at -1 WS. (10)

Devastator Squad

1: Squad may re-roll one failed to-hit for shooting. (10)

2: Squad gains Stealth. (15)

Thoughts?

harveydent · June 21, 2008

Ok, after some more thought, here's my ideas for the different units, with their Tier 1 and Tier 2 powers, with the suggested costs listed after each. We'll worry about power names later.

Captain

1: One unit in the army per game turn may re-roll a failed leadership check. (10)

2: May re-deploy D3 units before Turn 1. (20)

Chaplain

1: Might of Heroes. (10)

2: His Will Be Done. (20)

Command Squad

1: May re-roll one missed to-hit or to-wound roll per round of combat. (10)

2: The squad has Furious Charge. (20)

Terminator Squad

1: Squad has BS of 5. (10)

2: Squad's Inv. save becomes 4+. (20)

Terminator Assault Squad

1: Squad has WS of 5. (10)

2: Squad's Inv. save becomes 4+. (20)

Veteran Squad

1: Bolt Weapons become AP4. (10)

2: Squad gets +1 Attack. (20)

Tactical Squad

1: Storm of the Emperor's Wrath. (5)

2: The squad wins drawn combats by one wound. (10)

Scout Squad

1: Squad gains Stealth. (10)

2: Squad is immune to dangerous terrain. (15)

Assault Squad

1: Enemy models get -1 Attack in CC. (10)

2: Enemy unit tests at an extra -1 LD if they lose CC. (15)

Bike Squad

1: May re-roll one failed to-hit in CC. (5)

2: Enemy models are at -1 WS. (10)

Devastator Squad

1: Squad may re-roll one failed to-hit for shooting. (10)

2: Squad gains Stealth. (15)

Thoughts?

well, i think you've fleshed out a lot of possibilities here. i spent some time thinking about where to go with a lot of these abilities, and the thought dawned on me that while they were neat, i wanted more.

...and then i had a massive realization that might be considered good or bad, depending on how you look at it: the idea for this army is at odds with itself.

when you think about all the psykers from previous army books, you think of librarians, farseers, sorcerers, inquisitors, wierdboyz, daemons, sanctioned psykers and tyranid monstrosities. if you look at the organization of all these types of units, you see that most of them are HQ characters, some are squad leaders, and all possess a unique power that is rare within their given army list - you only get one, and if you're lucky two.

the trademark trait of most psykers is 'unique' or 'special' which allows them to have special abilities that don't exist elsewhere. in rare cases, this restriction is lifted (inquisition, eldar and tyranid codexes all allow upwards of 4 psykers in an army).

so here we are, working on an army that is FULL of uniqueness... which is like opening a store called "one-of-a-kind collectibles" that only sells one product.

our dilemma here is to break through the barrier of 'lots of unique guys being unique as a group.'

unique individuals would seem to all have their own special function, but they should also be able to work together for a common goal.

with this in mind, it may be worth coming up with a few specific goals for what you want people to be able to do with this army. what kind of interesting gameplay situations would you like the army to be able to get through easier? what kind of rule would you like them to bypass? what kind of roadblocks would you like to set up to stifle over-efficiency?

anyhow, just a few things to think about. my gears are turning.

Allerka · June 22, 2008

well, i think you've fleshed out a lot of possibilities here. i spent some time thinking about where to go with a lot of these abilities, and the thought dawned on me that while they were neat, i wanted more.

...and then i had a massive realization that might be considered good or bad, depending on how you look at it: the idea for this army is at odds with itself.

Indeed. Part of the issue is, any new abilities we give them would have their own points cost, which obviously raises the cost of the army more. If we overdo it, then we drastically hamper our army numbers, leaving it vulnerable to being easily annihilated (something I've consistently had a problem with).

when you think about all the psykers from previous army books, you think of librarians, farseers, sorcerers, inquisitors, wierdboyz, daemons, sanctioned psykers and tyranid monstrosities. if you look at the organization of all these types of units, you see that most of them are HQ characters, some are squad leaders, and all possess a unique power that is rare within their given army list - you only get one, and if you're lucky two.

the trademark trait of most psykers is 'unique' or 'special' which allows them to have special abilities that don't exist elsewhere. in rare cases, this restriction is lifted (inquisition, eldar and tyranid codexes all allow upwards of 4 psykers in an army).

Well, in Eldar armies, you can attach Warlocks to Guardian squads, meaning you could really have up to eight psykers in an army. The Exarch powers, while not psychic powers in the strictest sense, do make me think there's at least some latent psyker ability involved in them. Those powers are about the same cost as the psychic powers here, too.

so here we are, working on an army that is FULL of uniqueness... which is like opening a store called "one-of-a-kind collectibles" that only sells one product.

our dilemma here is to break through the barrier of 'lots of unique guys being unique as a group.'

unique individuals would seem to all have their own special function, but they should also be able to work together for a common goal.

with this in mind, it may be worth coming up with a few specific goals for what you want people to be able to do with this army. what kind of interesting gameplay situations would you like the army to be able to get through easier? what kind of rule would you like them to bypass? what kind of roadblocks would you like to set up to stifle over-efficiency?

anyhow, just a few things to think about. my gears are turning.

Indeed. How do we give each squad a unique ability, and they all wind up working together towards a common goal of smashing the enemy? Luckily, we already have defined roles for all of the squads, so it seems most logical to give them abilities that might enhance them in those roles (make Dev Squads better shooters, make Assault Squads better in CC, etc.).

In terms of gameplay situations, a big one that comes to mind for me is CC. After playing with my CSMs a lot, I liked having squads that could do decent amounts of shooting, and then still hold their own in CC. Plus SMs are already pretty decent as shooting (baring my frequently bad rolling, anyway :P), so augmenting their abilities in the other part of combat, CC, seems a good way to go. Movement (the third part) got enough universal buffs for 5th that I don't see much need to worry about it.

As for restrictions, we've already got semi-extensive unit restrictions in place, in regards to certain vehicles and units. Plus we still have the increased unit costs, which'll reduce the overall total army count. Those seem like adequate drawbacks to me (especially the reduced body count).

harveydent · June 22, 2008

conceptually speaking, the imperial psykers we know and love fall into 4 categories:

1) inquisitors - for the most part, they're either leading a retinue of henchmen and an army of IG or GK marines, or they're operating on the orders of their ordo as an independent agent seconded to a strikeforce. they are loners whose wargear is utilized by other armies.

2) librarians - their job is pretty much to provide a fighting HQ for a marine force, and to hunt down some of the more powerful, multi-wound units that normal marines can't handle with their powerfists. he doesn't really play the role of an HQ, instead focusing on being an assassin of sorts, or on just being an overall close combat badass. they're also chosen for a specific psychic power, but this is something that will eventually go away as a SM army standard... or will it?

3) sanctioned psykers - i have no idea what people use these for because they pretty much suck. they are good at ... nothing. they're pretty much available as a way of adding flavor to an IG force, and there's always the possibility that they could get an honorifica imperialis and turn into a hand-to-hand butcher (or at the very least, a model that can have a chance of killing a character with his force weapon).

4) grey knights - noone really uses their psychic powers with the exception of unique instances when they want to use sanctuary against daemons... but holocaust seems to be the standby power. really, the only capacity in which a GK psyker is utilized is the grand master with his S6 force weapon. great.

so the imperial psyker summary just barely defines the role of a psyker. psykers are a very extremely fluffy type of model, and their gameplay purpose is ambiguous at best, varying in design intent (if it's present at all!) from army to army.

we need to solidify what the intent behind including a whole bunch of psykers in a space marine army.

some priorities for marine psyker sergeants:

1) stay alive despite the wound allocation rules in 5th

2) do extraordinary things that a sergeant usually can't do

3) enhance squad abilities

4) stay somewhere between sergeant and independent character in power level

5) use/exploit new 5th edition rules

i may have said this already, but i think the CSM thousand sons are a great example of how to do a lot of these things (with the exception of staying alive).

so let's try and address some of these priorities by staying within the established space marine parameters.

1) stay alive despite the wound allocation rules in 5th: in 5th edition, a ten man squad size is about all you're going to get in the way of protection for a squad leader... or maybe an apothecary, but it sounds like you can already get both of those with this list.

2) do extraordinary things that a sergeant usually can't do: this means that the psyker sgt has to be able to be better at shooting or at close combat than a typical sgt... or have better LD or better tactical leadership than a regular sgt. this is such a broad topic that it's hard to zone in on specifics. essentially there has to be a shooting power that is unique and powerful, and a close combat ability that is similarly above par.

3) enhance squad abilities: SM squad specific strengths obviously depend on the squad. usually the overall SM strength is their buff stat line. then they have some other simple special ability, or one stat that has been given a simple bonus.

4) stay somewhere between sergeant and independent character in power level: this is pretty obvious. we don't need 10 codiciers running around the table, slaughtering squads at will.

5) use/exploit new 5th edition rules: another obvious one, but not as much as you might think. we're used to thinking in the scope of 4th edition, and 5th is almost an entirely new game. what was powerful in 4th is probably wayyyyy overpowered in 5th, and what is weak in 4th is really strong in 5th. the changes of power level are all over the place. we also need to consider that there are tactical and strategic considerations to the way armies play now, and due to the differences in army pre-game setup, lots of units are going to play differently.

to keep things really simple and in-line with pre-existing SM standards, i think it might be worth considering some of the following things:

A) keep the 'warlock' layout (psychic powers are 'on' all the time) for squad leaders

:P give bonuses for being a psyker that are all in the scope of '+1 to X, Y or Z'

C) make sure that there is a difference between being a psyker and a regular veteran

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