Codex: Lords of Oblivion Project

harveydent · June 22, 2008

some ideas:

no chaplains. these marines never went to the council of nicea and don't care about the chaplain edict (or whatever it's called). they get masters and librarians, and maybe create another character type. instead of a chaplain, perhaps there should be a inquisitor-type character that watches over the librarium and makes sure nothing gets out of hand (kind of like a less militant hardline SM version of a commissar).

the master is a chief librarian (1 per army) with bigger stats like the chapter master from the B&C SM Redux project (4 wounds, 4 attacks, all that jazz).

the librarian remains the same (like the BA librarian)

sergeants would be as follows:

same as current sgt, but drop LD to 8 (the fluff being that they have spent more time developing their powers than developing their leadership capabilities). they are still included in a squad's profile, but with a more limited wargear selection. all veterans gain the 'psyker' trait. powers are extra. every veteran could buy one of these abilities/powers. this would also allow units of veterans to buy multiple abilities (like the command or company veterans squads).

powers list:

#1: unit counts as having done +2 wounds in each round of close combat. +20 points

#2: the unit may add +2 to any roll made for difficult terrain tests, run moves, fallback moves, or consolidation moves (maximum of 6 for a roll, or 12 for falling back). +25 points

#3: the unit adds +2 to its leadership (maximum of 10). +25 points

#4: the unit adds +2 to its ballistic skill. +55 points

#5: when rolling for reserves, add +2 to your roll to bring this unit into play. +15 points

#6: when making armor or cover saves, the psyker adds +2 to his roll (a roll of 1 will always fail). +20 points.

the character librarians could have the typical 2 or 3 powers for a SM codex, but they could also buy these lesser psychic abilities (master epistolary gets up to 2, librarian gets up to 1).

this takes things to a different level. no huge number of psychic tests. LD is in-line with what you suggested earlier (testing at -1 incorporated as LD8). fluffyness is incorporated. usefulness is much, much greater. customization is paramount here, and i think it looks very appealing. costs may need to be readjusted.

what do you think?

Allerka · June 22, 2008

conceptually speaking, the imperial psykers we know and love fall into 4 categories:
1) inquisitors - for the most part, they're either leading a retinue of henchmen and an army of IG or GK marines, or they're operating on the orders of their ordo as an independent agent seconded to a strikeforce. they are loners whose wargear is utilized by other armies.

Yeah, like Librarians, they're ICs, and make better support characters than front-line leaders.

2) librarians - their job is pretty much to provide a fighting HQ for a marine force, and to hunt down some of the more powerful, multi-wound units that normal marines can't handle with their powerfists. he doesn't really play the role of an HQ, instead focusing on being an assassin of sorts, or on just being an overall close combat badass. they're also chosen for a specific psychic power, but this is something that will eventually go away as a SM army standard... or will it?

I honestly have no idea what we'll see for powers in the new codex. But I'm pretty happy with how the Librarians are set up right now in C:LoO.

3) sanctioned psykers - i have no idea what people use these for because they pretty much suck. they are good at ... nothing. they're pretty much available as a way of adding flavor to an IG force, and there's always the possibility that they could get an honorifica imperialis and turn into a hand-to-hand butcher (or at the very least, a model that can have a chance of killing a character with his force weapon).

Yeah, rolling a D6 to pick a power is kinda...blah.

4) grey knights - noone really uses their psychic powers with the exception of unique instances when they want to use sanctuary against daemons... but holocaust seems to be the standby power. really, the only capacity in which a GK psyker is utilized is the grand master with his S6 force weapon. great.

I forgot about GKs. Though technically all GKs are psykers, this is represented for them in their Nemesis Force Weapons. GK Terminator Brother-Captains (the squad leaders) can take the Holocaust power (it's their only option, hence why you see it so much). Justicars can take Psychic Hoods, but no actual powers.

so the imperial psyker summary just barely defines the role of a psyker. psykers are a very extremely fluffy type of model, and their gameplay purpose is ambiguous at best, varying in design intent (if it's present at all!) from army to army.

we need to solidify what the intent behind including a whole bunch of psykers in a space marine army.

We definitely need to figure that out. Doesn't help when the bulk of our reference material is random and inconsistent at best. :ermm:

some priorities for marine psyker sergeants:

1) stay alive despite the wound allocation rules in 5th

2) do extraordinary things that a sergeant usually can't do

3) enhance squad abilities

4) stay somewhere between sergeant and independent character in power level

5) use/exploit new 5th edition rules

i may have said this already, but i think the CSM thousand sons are a great example of how to do a lot of these things (with the exception of staying alive).

so let's try and address some of these priorities by staying within the established space marine parameters.

That's one way to do it. But the 1K Sons Sorcerers are more mini-Librarians that semi-psykers.

1) stay alive despite the wound allocation rules in 5th: in 5th edition, a ten man squad size is about all you're going to get in the way of protection for a squad leader... or maybe an apothecary, but it sounds like you can already get both of those with this list.

This is partly why I want to keep the costs down. Because of the increased vulnerability of the Sergeants, players may not want to even bother with powers because they might just die in turn 1 anyway. Also, Apothecaries are only one per Command Squad, and their ability only applies to models within 6" of them (assuming the Apothecary himself isn't in combat). Rumor is the new codex will change it to he makes his squad have Feel No Pain. So, Apothecaries aren't going to be a reliable means of protection.

2) do extraordinary things that a sergeant usually can't do: this means that the psyker sgt has to be able to be better at shooting or at close combat than a typical sgt... or have better LD or better tactical leadership than a regular sgt. this is such a broad topic that it's hard to zone in on specifics. essentially there has to be a shooting power that is unique and powerful, and a close combat ability that is similarly above par.

Well, the only shooting power I've made available is Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, which still strikes me as decently powerful without being over the top. The other shooting power CSMs have is Doombolt (18" S4 AP3 Assault 3), and Bolt of Change (24" S8 AP1 Assault 1). We could come up with something similar, say something that's maybe 18" S4 AP4 Assault 3? I.E. something a little stronger than a bolter or storm bolter, without being necessarily as strong as the special or heavy weapons, plus the SGT would just roll off of his BS instead of taking a psychic test (just like the Warlock shooting powers).

As for Assault Powers, there's not much point in giving them something that works the same as the special weapons. Though, maybe we could do a power that lets a PF strike in I order?

3) enhance squad abilities: SM squad specific strengths obviously depend on the squad. usually the overall SM strength is their buff stat line. then they have some other simple special ability, or one stat that has been given a simple bonus.

Well, most/all of the powers I gave above are designed along this line. Enhance the shooting power for shooty squads, and buff the CC squads in CC.

4) stay somewhere between sergeant and independent character in power level: this is pretty obvious. we don't need 10 codiciers running around the table, slaughtering squads at will.

Yep. Even though Force Weapons are near useless nowadays (everything's either immune to instant death, i.e. Tyranids and daemons, or can't be hurt by S4, i.e. Wraitlords), having a half-dozen of them on the board would probably still elicit a few cries of cheese.

5) use/exploit new 5th edition rules: another obvious one, but not as much as you might think. we're used to thinking in the scope of 4th edition, and 5th is almost an entirely new game. what was powerful in 4th is probably wayyyyy overpowered in 5th, and what is weak in 4th is really strong in 5th. the changes of power level are all over the place. we also need to consider that there are tactical and strategic considerations to the way armies play now, and due to the differences in army pre-game setup, lots of units are going to play differently.

You're right, the game dynamics have undergone some nearly radical shifts. I should probably try to get some more games in (can't right now because I'm in the process of moving, but I can probably start playing again by next weekend), so I can better understand the metagame.

to keep things really simple and in-line with pre-existing SM standards, i think it might be worth considering some of the following things:

A) keep the 'warlock' layout (psychic powers are 'on' all the time) for squad leaders

:P give bonuses for being a psyker that are all in the scope of '+1 to X, Y or Z'

C) make sure that there is a difference between being a psyker and a regular veteran

I think the layout I've proposed is pretty solid, though I'm gonna think about a few of them, and maybe tweak them (such as the Captain's second ability). I think maybe I'll tweak it so that both powers for a given squad are the same cost, but only one can be taken (and make both powers useful, so the player would have to choose between how he wants to improve a given squad). This'll make the costs a little lower, but still help avoid "no-brainer" choices.

Allerka · July 2, 2008

some ideas:

Ok, sorry, I JUST noticed this post. Didn't really see it before since it was posted while I was typing my last one. See below.

no chaplains. these marines never went to the council of nicea and don't care about the chaplain edict (or whatever it's called). they get masters and librarians, and maybe create another character type. instead of a chaplain, perhaps there should be a inquisitor-type character that watches over the librarium and makes sure nothing gets out of hand (kind of like a less militant hardline SM version of a commissar).

This one I'm gonna have to say no to. I don't see much of a reason for a Loyalist Chapter to not have them (I can't think of any Chapters off-hand, either, that DON'T have them, not even as some variant, like Iron Fathers). Fluff-wise, that angle is technically already covered by the presence of Inquisitor Elliot, of the Ordo Malleus, who serves both as an envoy of the Ordo, and to keep an eye on them.

the master is a chief librarian (1 per army) with bigger stats like the chapter master from the B&C SM Redux project (4 wounds, 4 attacks, all that jazz).

I've already got the Chapter Master covered, specifically with Abaddon's rules (kind of a long story behind that one). In fact, I'm working on the model right now, which you can check out here.

the librarian remains the same (like the BA librarian)

Yeah, I think they're fine as-is.

sergeants would be as follows:

same as current sgt, but drop LD to 8 (the fluff being that they have spent more time developing their powers than developing their leadership capabilities). they are still included in a squad's profile, but with a more limited wargear selection. all veterans gain the 'psyker' trait. powers are extra. every veteran could buy one of these abilities/powers. this would also allow units of veterans to buy multiple abilities (like the command or company veterans squads).

powers list:

#1: unit counts as having done +2 wounds in each round of close combat. +20 points

#2: the unit may add +2 to any roll made for difficult terrain tests, run moves, fallback moves, or consolidation moves (maximum of 6 for a roll, or 12 for falling back). +25 points

#3: the unit adds +2 to its leadership (maximum of 10). +25 points

#4: the unit adds +2 to its ballistic skill. +55 points

#5: when rolling for reserves, add +2 to your roll to bring this unit into play. +15 points

#6: when making armor or cover saves, the psyker adds +2 to his roll (a roll of 1 will always fail). +20 points.

Hmm... that's rather interesting, and a pretty different way to do it. It'd certainly improve the total list of options, without totally bogging it down with every squad having different options. I think I'd wanna expand this list to include maybe 2-3 more powers, and tweak these a bit.

the character librarians could have the typical 2 or 3 powers for a SM codex, but they could also buy these lesser psychic abilities (master epistolary gets up to 2, librarian gets up to 1).

That could be something, too, would certainly help increase the level of tailoring a Librarian could get.

this takes things to a different level. no huge number of psychic tests. LD is in-line with what you suggested earlier (testing at -1 incorporated as LD8). fluffyness is incorporated. usefulness is much, much greater. customization is paramount here, and i think it looks very appealing. costs may need to be readjusted.

This definitely simplifies things. I'm not too sure on making Vet SGT's LD 8 (that penalty I suggested was to off-balance them having psychic tests they could take, and not being as powerful as full-fledged Librarians), though. It definitely boosts the customizability of them. I'll think about it and give my ideas for tweaking them, 55 points for a power is a bit staggering, especially if they're still vulnerable to wounds in 5th.

Another thing to consider is Combat Squads. How do we want to incorporate those in? Do we allow the Sergeant's powers to affect the other team, too?

Allerka · July 5, 2008

Alright, thought about it a bit while I'm on an out-of-town trip, here's what I'm thinking for the powers.

#1: unit counts as having done +1 wound in each round of close combat. +10 points

#2: the unit may add +2 to any roll made for difficult terrain tests, run moves, fall-back moves, or consolidation moves (maximum of 6 for a roll, or 12 for falling back). +20 points

#3: the unit adds +1 to its leadership (maximum of 10). +10 points

#4: the unit adds +1 to its ballistic skill. +30 points

#5: the unit adds +1 to its weapon skill. +20 points

#6: when rolling for reserves, add +2 to your roll to bring this unit into play. +15 points

#7: when making armor or cover saves, the psyker adds +1 to his roll (a roll of 1 will always fail). +10 points.

#8: enemy units must roll as if fighting under Night Fight when targeting the psyker's unit. +20 points.

Also, I'm thinking adding for Librarians, "May also take psychic powers from the master list (or whatever we call it) at half their listed costs (rounded up)." 'Cause Librarians are already gonna be bloody expensive as is, and this'll help mitigate the cost a little, and giving good incentive to further tailor them as desired. Though mebbe make #3 not an option for them...

harveydent · July 5, 2008

Alright, thought about it a bit while I'm on an out-of-town trip, here's what I'm thinking for the powers.

#1: unit counts as having done +1 wound in each round of close combat. +10 points

#2: the unit may add +2 to any roll made for difficult terrain tests, run moves, fall-back moves, or consolidation moves (maximum of 6 for a roll, or 12 for falling back). +20 points

#3: the unit adds +1 to its leadership (maximum of 10). +10 points

#4: the unit adds +1 to its ballistic skill. +30 points

#5: the unit adds +1 to its weapon skill. +20 points

#6: when rolling for reserves, add +2 to your roll to bring this unit into play. +15 points

#7: when making armor or cover saves, the psyker adds +1 to his roll (a roll of 1 will always fail). +10 points.

#8: enemy units must roll as if fighting under Night Fight when targeting the psyker's unit. +20 points.

Also, I'm thinking adding for Librarians, "May also take psychic powers from the master list (or whatever we call it) at half their listed costs (rounded up)." 'Cause Librarians are already gonna be bloody expensive as is, and this'll help mitigate the cost a little, and giving good incentive to further tailor them as desired. Though mebbe make #3 not an option for them...

a major thing that came to mind while writing up these powers:

the unit gets +1 toughness.

the unit gets +1 attack.

the unit gets +1 initiative.

the unit gets +1 to its invulnerable save.

if this sounds at all familiar, then you get what i'm trying to say. i went for the same +2 modifier for all the powers to make sure they're not that hard to remember. but the biggest reason i went for +2 is because C:CSM goes for +1 modifiers to stats and i think this should look almost completely different. in fact i tried to stray away from stat bonuses for the majority of the abilities, with the exception of a couple that were very appealing.

also, if you wanted the +2 LD power changed, you would be better off writing it as follows:

The unit adds +2 to its leadership when taking morale tests.

here are the reasons i chose to write each of the powers i did. this may shed some light on a few things and perhaps clarify my intentions. first, however, i want to say that this list of powers should not encourage a list with a bunch of different squads (4 or more) that have different powers. it should encourage as much conformity and focus within a LoO list as possible. costs and bonuses should later be adjusted appropriately so that the 'memory factor' is minimal - you don't want any opponent going "so what does THIS unit have? ...and what does THIS unit have? ...and is this OTHER unit equipped like..waht?" there's a lot of potential for confusion with all the variety going on here.

#1: unit counts as having done +2 wounds in each round of close combat. +20 points

the goal of fighting in a close combat is to kill an opposing unit. as a player, it is up to you to figure out how to get around this, but the rules themselves should encourage a decisive victory.

#2: the unit may add +2 to any roll made for difficult terrain tests, run moves, fallback moves, or consolidation moves (maximum of 6 for a roll, or 12 for falling back). +25 points

units with good HtH capability will need this before and after combat. they'll get there faster, run away slower, and after winning they'll get into a more favorable position faster.

#3: the unit adds +2 to its leadership (maximum of 10). +25 points

since the LoO have vet. sgts. with low LD, they need some kind of compensation. the cost seemed appropriate since it allows you to completely bypass the negative of being a squad-leading psyker. as stated above, the quick fix for this would be to only allow its use for morale tests.

#4: the unit adds +2 to its ballistic skill. +55 points

not only is an increase in BS exciting, but a significant increase like this allows you to actually utilize the BS6+ rules in 5th edition. the cost may not be appropriate, but i took a stab at it and i think it's close.

#5: when rolling for reserves, add +2 to your roll to bring this unit into play. +15 points

this is for units that you absolutely must have on turn 2. this isn't something that marines traditionally have (usually an IG thing). it's probably way too cheap.

#6: when making armor or cover saves, the psyker adds +2 to his roll (a roll of 1 will always fail). +20 points.

this is simply a boost in protection for the psyker leading a squad - it becomes really useful when you have a small squad and your psyker is forced to have a couple wounds allocated to him.

next, i think your two newer ideas have a lot of merit - the +1 WS is good, but it looks too much like a chaos mark. i think the +2 to wounds inflicted is also far better because it cuts directly to the combat resolution score and bypasses the blanket modifier to multiple models. perhaps there is something else we can do with this.

the nightfighting thing is good, but it doesn't fit into the 'cycle' of adding +2 to something. maybe there's something we can do involving range that isn't too terribly specific and doesn't complicate things. maybe "the ranges of all weaponry fired by this unit are increased by 2 inches" or something more along those lines.

Allerka · July 5, 2008

a major thing that came to mind while writing up these powers:

the unit gets +1 toughness.

the unit gets +1 attack.

the unit gets +1 initiative.

the unit gets +1 to its invulnerable save.

if this sounds at all familiar, then you get what i'm trying to say. i went for the same +2 modifier for all the powers to make sure they're not that hard to remember. but the biggest reason i went for +2 is because C:CSM goes for +1 modifiers to stats and i think this should look almost completely different. in fact i tried to stray away from stat bonuses for the majority of the abilities, with the exception of a couple that were very appealing.

Hmm, I guess it makes them kinda like the Chaos marks in the +1 regard, but all the possible boosts affect things that can't be buffed by marks. Though +2 definitely makes it easier to remember, it felt like to me buffing certain things (like BS) would be a little too far. A squad of BS 6 Devs... that's pretty lethal. Though 55 points is just too staggering, even for an upgrade like that. Plus, other than WS/BS and LD, there's no actual physical stat boosts (which I would qualify all the mark powers as).

also, if you wanted the +2 LD power changed, you would be better off writing it as follows:

The unit adds +2 to its leadership when taking morale tests.

Ahh, yeah. Perfect. ^_^

here are the reasons i chose to write each of the powers i did. this may shed some light on a few things and perhaps clarify my intentions. first, however, i want to say that this list of powers should not encourage a list with a bunch of different squads (4 or more) that have different powers. it should encourage as much conformity and focus within a LoO list as possible. costs and bonuses should later be adjusted appropriately so that the 'memory factor' is minimal - you don't want any opponent going "so what does THIS unit have? ...and what does THIS unit have? ...and is this OTHER unit equipped like..waht?" there's a lot of potential for confusion with all the variety going on here.

True, avoiding confusion would definitely be a good thing. In my Eldar army, all my Warlocks have Conceal, and that's it. Nice and straight-forward. :) I think we can safely say most squads will pick the same powers to enhance their rolls (BS boost for Devs, WS boost for Assault Squads), with the only possible real variance we'd see being in Tactical Squads, since they can be tailored for different roles.

A theme of "+2's" could work, my concern is just maintaining a fair balance between the powers and costs. I really want to keep the cost of the powers down, so that a player isn't sinking 75 points or so in every Veteran Sergeant. However, +2 to things, particularly BS, for 30 points tops, might cause some to claim over-poweredness. Well, maybe, I dunno.

the nightfighting thing is good, but it doesn't fit into the 'cycle' of adding +2 to something. maybe there's something we can do involving range that isn't too terribly specific and doesn't complicate things. maybe "the ranges of all weaponry fired by this unit are increased by 2 inches" or something more along those lines.

Yeah, the idea was to give them a defense against shooting. I don't think +2 inches to weapon ranges would help much, though, not most of the time, anyway. Reducing enemy weapon ranges by 2 inches wouldn't make much difference usually, anyway. I can't really think of much else that'd make a squad harder to shoot at, other than a decrease to enemy BS, though a -2 would mean most armies would only hit on 6's, and Orks wouldn't hit at all. :lol:

Actually...

harveydent · July 6, 2008

a major thing that came to mind while writing up these powers:

the unit gets +1 toughness.

the unit gets +1 attack.

the unit gets +1 initiative.

the unit gets +1 to its invulnerable save.

if this sounds at all familiar, then you get what i'm trying to say. i went for the same +2 modifier for all the powers to make sure they're not that hard to remember. but the biggest reason i went for +2 is because C:CSM goes for +1 modifiers to stats and i think this should look almost completely different. in fact i tried to stray away from stat bonuses for the majority of the abilities, with the exception of a couple that were very appealing.

Hmm, I guess it makes them kinda like the Chaos marks in the +1 regard, but all the possible boosts affect things that can't be buffed by marks. Though +2 definitely makes it easier to remember, it felt like to me buffing certain things (like BS) would be a little too far. A squad of BS 6 Devs... that's pretty lethal. Though 55 points is just too staggering, even for an upgrade like that. Plus, other than WS/BS and LD, there's no actual physical stat boosts (which I would qualify all the mark powers as).

also, if you wanted the +2 LD power changed, you would be better off writing it as follows:

The unit adds +2 to its leadership when taking morale tests.

Ahh, yeah. Perfect. ^_^

here are the reasons i chose to write each of the powers i did. this may shed some light on a few things and perhaps clarify my intentions. first, however, i want to say that this list of powers should not encourage a list with a bunch of different squads (4 or more) that have different powers. it should encourage as much conformity and focus within a LoO list as possible. costs and bonuses should later be adjusted appropriately so that the 'memory factor' is minimal - you don't want any opponent going "so what does THIS unit have? ...and what does THIS unit have? ...and is this OTHER unit equipped like..waht?" there's a lot of potential for confusion with all the variety going on here.

True, avoiding confusion would definitely be a good thing. In my Eldar army, all my Warlocks have Conceal, and that's it. Nice and straight-forward. :) I think we can safely say most squads will pick the same powers to enhance their rolls (BS boost for Devs, WS boost for Assault Squads), with the only possible real variance we'd see being in Tactical Squads, since they can be tailored for different roles.

A theme of "+2's" could work, my concern is just maintaining a fair balance between the powers and costs. I really want to keep the cost of the powers down, so that a player isn't sinking 75 points or so in every Veteran Sergeant. However, +2 to things, particularly BS, for 30 points tops, might cause some to claim over-poweredness. Well, maybe, I dunno.

the nightfighting thing is good, but it doesn't fit into the 'cycle' of adding +2 to something. maybe there's something we can do involving range that isn't too terribly specific and doesn't complicate things. maybe "the ranges of all weaponry fired by this unit are increased by 2 inches" or something more along those lines.

Yeah, the idea was to give them a defense against shooting. I don't think +2 inches to weapon ranges would help much, though, not most of the time, anyway. Reducing enemy weapon ranges by 2 inches wouldn't make much difference usually, anyway. I can't really think of much else that'd make a squad harder to shoot at, other than a decrease to enemy BS, though a -2 would mean most armies would only hit on 6's, and Orks wouldn't hit at all. :D

Actually...

adjusting costs so that they're appropriate is part of the testing process, but putting an initial value on them to start with is important.

i figured that since the BS of the unit went up by 16.6% (up to 5, since 6 is just a formality), i would just use a flat 33% increase in cost. if that isn't an adequate increase in cost for that power, then an actual drawback is needed. obviously the best type of unit to put this on would be a devastator squad (or any marine unit that puts out more than just one or two AP1 or AP2 shots per turn). the key is finding the balance between cost and effectiveness... which is totally possible :)

as for the night fighting thing, i'm not sure how i would treat that. it's very difficult to make a cycle of '+2' effects and turn it into a drawback for the opponent (+ = bonus, - = drawback). you would have to apply the +2 to enemy dice rolls like morale, or fallback distance, or something like that.

here are some ideas for other powers that would work along those lines:

dice rolls for morale checks taken by enemy units in close combat with the psyker's unit are +2

damage rolls on enemy vehicles resulting from hits incurred by the psyker's unit are +2

scatter dice rolls for blast weapons targeting the psyker's unit are +2

enemy psykers roll +2 dice when taking psychic tests

Night Stalker · July 7, 2008

bs 6 is wonder if counting templates [like plasma cannons] :>

just a sidenote

Allerka · July 7, 2008

adjusting costs so that they're appropriate is part of the testing process, but putting an initial value on them to start with is important.

i figured that since the BS of the unit went up by 16.6% (up to 5, since 6 is just a formality), i would just use a flat 33% increase in cost. if that isn't an adequate increase in cost for that power, then an actual drawback is needed. obviously the best type of unit to put this on would be a devastator squad (or any marine unit that puts out more than just one or two AP1 or AP2 shots per turn). the key is finding the balance between cost and effectiveness... which is totally possible ^_^

I agree. It slipped my mind, though, that the increase from BS 5 to 6 isn't nearly as big an advantage as the boost from 4 to 5 is, so, now that I think about it, BS 6 isn't so bad. I still think +55 points is a bit steep, maybe somewhere in the 35-45 range would be better, in my opinion. I really wish I knew how much that new Sergeant Telion fellow is going to cost, as he'd make a good reference point (he's the Scout Sergeant that can make another guy in the squad BS 6).

as for the night fighting thing, i'm not sure how i would treat that. it's very difficult to make a cycle of '+2' effects and turn it into a drawback for the opponent (+ = bonus, - = drawback). you would have to apply the +2 to enemy dice rolls like morale, or fallback distance, or something like that.

here are some ideas for other powers that would work along those lines:

dice rolls for morale checks taken by enemy units in close combat with the psyker's unit are +2

damage rolls on enemy vehicles resulting from hits incurred by the psyker's unit are +2

scatter dice rolls for blast weapons targeting the psyker's unit are +2

enemy psykers roll +2 dice when taking psychic tests

The only one of those that really pops out at me is the scatter distance one. I'm thinking maybe we should just forget about an anti-shooting power, since we've having so much trouble coming up with something appropriate. We've still got plenty of other great powers to choose from, so I don't think the list would suffer too much without it.

bs 6 is wonder if counting templates [like plasma cannons] :>

just a sidenote

That's also true, and I hadn't really thought about it. Those extra two inches will also make PCs a delicious choice, and it still keeps all the weapons on equal footing with each other (as they all would get buffed in some way).

If I have some time tomorrow or the day after, I'll see if I can edit the PDF to incorporate the baseline of these powers.

harveydent · July 7, 2008

I agree. It slipped my mind, though, that the increase from BS 5 to 6 isn't nearly as big an advantage as the boost from 4 to 5 is, so, now that I think about it, BS 6 isn't so bad. I still think +55 points is a bit steep, maybe somewhere in the 35-45 range would be better, in my opinion. I really wish I knew how much that new Sergeant Telion fellow is going to cost, as he'd make a good reference point (he's the Scout Sergeant that can make another guy in the squad BS 6).

i think it's a good starting point, considering the boost it gives to plasma cannons. i was trying to remember why exactly i made the cost +55, and Night Stalker remembered for me!

damage rolls on enemy vehicles resulting from hits incurred by the psyker's unit are +2

The only one of those that really pops out at me is the scatter distance one. I'm thinking maybe we should just forget about an anti-shooting power, since we've having so much trouble coming up with something appropriate. We've still got plenty of other great powers to choose from, so I don't think the list would suffer too much without it.

i'm okay with that. however, i am partial to the 'penetrating glancing hit' built into the other one...

If I have some time tomorrow or the day after, I'll see if I can edit the PDF to incorporate the baseline of these powers.

sounds good. are we going to be okay with 6 powers then?

also, should we be brainstorming for some more standard librarian powers for the HQ characters?

Allerka · July 7, 2008

i think it's a good starting point, considering the boost it gives to plasma cannons. i was trying to remember why exactly i made the cost +55, and Night Stalker remembered for me!

It's a huge benefit, especially for plasma cannons and frag missiles, but I'm just not sure who'd want to pay that much for a single upgrade. I'll ask some friends of mine, see what they think.

i'm okay with that. however, i am partial to the 'penetrating glancing hit' built into the other one...

That means the squad would never get anything worse than a "weapon destroyed" result, and is destroying vehicles on 3+, unless they glance. That'd be pretty nasty, if you ask me.

sounds good. are we going to be okay with 6 powers then?

also, should we be brainstorming for some more standard librarian powers for the HQ characters?

Seven powers, actually (including the WS boost). As for the HQs, the Chaplains are good with MoH and HWBD, though I'll have to think of something for the Captains.

harveydent · July 7, 2008

i think it's a good starting point, considering the boost it gives to plasma cannons. i was trying to remember why exactly i made the cost +55, and Night Stalker remembered for me!

It's a huge benefit, especially for plasma cannons and frag missiles, but I'm just not sure who'd want to pay that much for a single upgrade. I'll ask some friends of mine, see what they think.

i'm okay with that. however, i am partial to the 'penetrating glancing hit' built into the other one...

That means the squad would never get anything worse than a "weapon destroyed" result, and is destroying vehicles on 3+, unless they glance. That'd be pretty nasty, if you ask me.

sounds good. are we going to be okay with 6 powers then?

also, should we be brainstorming for some more standard librarian powers for the HQ characters?

Seven powers, actually (including the WS boost). As for the HQs, the Chaplains are good with MoH and HWBD, though I'll have to think of something for the Captains.

ooohhh, yeah, you're right. the wording would have to be completely reworked on that one because i just wanted to help out glancing hits.

let's just stick with the six powers for now, and we can work on the independent character powers for a bit.

Allerka · July 9, 2008

ooohhh, yeah, you're right. the wording would have to be completely reworked on that one because i just wanted to help out glancing hits.
let's just stick with the six powers for now, and we can work on the independent character powers for a bit.

Right. Well, Librarians and Chaplains are fine, I think. Though, like I said above, I really don't know what to give Captains. Maybe Fear of the Darkness and Purgatus, those are the only ones that are LD-related.

Perhaps we should just allow Captains and Chaplains to take powers from the "armory"?

harveydent · July 15, 2008

*waiting patiently for an update* :D

i was giving all this a fair amount of thought, and i am really psyked about this codex (pun intended...but not really).

at this point we have an awesome army of psykers... which are really cool in fluff and getting more and more integrated with the new rules set. i think what i'm looking for at this point is some kind of really stunning, shockingly good unit or new mechanic that causes people to have some really bad knee-jerk reaction (those are usually the most popular units), but is really balanced in the end.

but i digress. i've been thinking about the army on a unit-by-unit basis and i have a few points to make and questions to ask:

the special character librarian - not sure how far you want to go with this guy, but if he is the head psyker in an army of psykers, then he is probably going to be a total badass. it may be worth considering giving him a couple special pieces of wargear that are traditionally 'psyker-only.' these special wargear selections should make him cost upwards of 200 points. some ideas:

- familiar that gives +1 initiative and +1 to his psychic hood rolls.

- force weapon that causes 1 additional wound instead of causing instant death.

- psychic armor that counts its armor save as invulnerable.

- psycannon bolts for his boltgun (personally i think he should have a storm bolter instead).

the company captain and chapter master should probably have the Rites of Battle ability removed for a couple of reasons: 1) the new SM codex won't have it (or at least that is the current rumor that is generally accepted as being the new standard) and 2) rites of battle eliminates the squad drawback of the psyker veteran sgts having LD8.

without going further into the HQ section, i hope there can be a few changes here that reflect what it would truly mean to be the leaders of an army of psychics. i think it may be worth looking into an alternate armory that includes some fringe equipment that might be desirable for a psyker.

one last comment, however, on the command squad:

i think this is a great opportunity to make a ballsy attempt at obtaining that 'wow factor' knee-jerk reaction that i mentioned earlier. the typical command squad allows for all sorts of nifty weapons upgrades and veteran models (apothecary, champion, etc.). it might be worth modifying some of these to allow for psyker upgrades. it's also worth mentioning that there should be some decision making when it comes to building a LoO army. it shouldn't be a no-brainer to take 2 librarians, or a master and librarian. there should be a specific reason to utilize specific characters. however, i think the command squad should be a way to say 'i have a psychic presence in my HQ choices, even though i didn't take a librarian character. here are some ideas -

(first i have to say that i don't really recall the rank of librarian titles, so i will assume that the epistolary is the LD10 special character, and that the regular 'librarian' is the LD9 HQ choice)

- all veterans in the command squad will be LD8

- codicier: replaces company champ, can get a psychic hood instead of the combat shield.

- lexicanum: replaces apothecary, can get an HQ psychic power.

- psyker adept: this is the typical command squad veteran, before buying upgrades, and each should be able to buy a veteran sgt psychic power (WOW factor! give your unit BS10!)

- penitent: this is a LoO veteran sgt who has committed a questionable psychic act and is trying to atone for his ridiculous behavior - should have a rule involving wound allocation, or a rule saying that if someone takes perils of the warp, he takes it instead.

- familiar: you might want to allow the command squad to take an attachment of 5 of these (one for each marine), that give the entire squad +1 initiative and soak up wounds - make 'em 10 points each with the stats of a cenobyte servitor. you could even go as far as calling them psychic servitors or something like that.

final note on command squads - i don't recall all the fluff for the LoO, but if any of this is contradictory to it, it can always be streamlined to fit in.

- units with 0-1/0-2 restrictions -

you can lift these restrictions because they usually all apply to Elite/FA/HS and those are no longer scoring units. the natural flow of 5th edition is contradictory to the 'elite army' and any fluff considerations can be compensated for by the inclusion/exclusion of weapon/upgrade choices. also, if you want to say something like 'this army only has like 10 suits of terminator armor' then we could just cut the terminators from the FOC completely. then we make them a 'unique' unit that functions much in the same way as a special character, but with fluff that makes them less unique.

- dreadnoughts -

if the LoO have been around long enough to have venerable dreads, then they will probably have PSYCHIC venerable dreads! i know this has been mentioned before, but if it's something you don't want to explore, that's fine. it just sounds really, really attractive and something that players would jump ALL over. some ideas -

- upgrades work similar to the venerable death company furioso dreadnought from the BA dex.

- emanates a psychic aura with an area-of-effect ability (acts like a shooting attack that you can trigger once per turn).

- could have either HQ psychic powers or veteran powers.

- might go crazy from being such an old psyker? might make every other psyker around him go crazy? is this within the LoO fluff?

- scouts -

do you want scouts to really be a troop selection? if you do, you probably don't want them to count towards the minimum requirement of the FOC. this was the reason that the newer books moved them to elites - players were taking 2 units of 5 scouts as their troops. 5th remedies that specific problem by requiring lots of Troops selections, but it doesn't remedy the 'entirely infiltrating army' problem. this problem may remedy itself when the new SM dex releases, so it's not terribly pressing at the moment.

- fast attack/heavy support -

with the exception of bikers, devastators and assault squads, these units are widely unaffected by the army's special traits. in fact, they almost seem contradictory to the army's fluff. i am not sure we need to do anything about it, but i look at the infantry units that have psykers... and then i see these completely extraneous FA and HS choices that don't feel like they're very integrated with the rest of the army.

i'm not a fluff interpreter by any means, but i am familiar with it. i don't believe that the mechanicus necessarily uses any sort of psychics. but i know that they do create machines that focus psychic power, or channel it, and they do maintain the golden throne so they kinda have a grasp on what makes psychic 'gear tick.

however, i'm not sure if psykers and machine spirits get along. the only reason i mentioned the psyker dreadnought is because i never consider that type of unit to have a machine spirit; an undead marine controls it...

so is it worth writing some fluff that reconciles the use of machine spirits in a LoO army, or does that fluff already exist? if it's possible to utilize psychic stuff on vehicles, then we may want to translate some of the existing traits of the army into vehicle wargear so that the vehicles feel more like they fit in.

we may want to ask Bannus if he has any input on this because he's got that whole Iron Hands army with a librarian and his machine spirit psychic power... just an idea.

Allerka · July 15, 2008

Well, I can't sleep (clowns will eat me :P), so I guess I might as well do something here.

the special character librarian - not sure how far you want to go with this guy, but if he is the head psyker in an army of psykers, then he is probably going to be a total badass. it may be worth considering giving him a couple special pieces of wargear that are traditionally 'psyker-only.' these special wargear selections should make him cost upwards of 200 points. some ideas:

- familiar that gives +1 initiative and +1 to his psychic hood rolls.

- force weapon that causes 1 additional wound instead of causing instant death.

- psychic armor that counts its armor save as invulnerable.

- psycannon bolts for his boltgun (personally i think he should have a storm bolter instead).

I like the Familiar option, I don't see any reason we couldn't throw it in. Also the Invulnerable save armor thing (kinda makes him like a Farseer). Beyond that, I don't think we need to do much else, he's already got a wide range of powers (more-so than any other Librarian in the game), plus the Steeled Resolve rule already.

the company captain and chapter master should probably have the Rites of Battle ability removed for a couple of reasons: 1) the new SM codex won't have it (or at least that is the current rumor that is generally accepted as being the new standard) and 2) rites of battle eliminates the squad drawback of the psyker veteran sgts having LD8.

Hmm... I guess there's that. I'm not 100% on removing it before we're able to replace it with Combat Tactics, but ok. I think I'll allow Captain Tiburin to keep it, to help emphasis his special nature.

without going further into the HQ section, i hope there can be a few changes here that reflect what it would truly mean to be the leaders of an army of psychics. i think it may be worth looking into an alternate armory that includes some fringe equipment that might be desirable for a psyker.

Such as?

one last comment, however, on the command squad:

i think this is a great opportunity to make a ballsy attempt at obtaining that 'wow factor' knee-jerk reaction that i mentioned earlier. the typical command squad allows for all sorts of nifty weapons upgrades and veteran models (apothecary, champion, etc.). it might be worth modifying some of these to allow for psyker upgrades. it's also worth mentioning that there should be some decision making when it comes to building a LoO army. it shouldn't be a no-brainer to take 2 librarians, or a master and librarian. there should be a specific reason to utilize specific characters. however, i think the command squad should be a way to say 'i have a psychic presence in my HQ choices, even though i didn't take a librarian character. here are some ideas -

Believe it or not, I still usually wind up taking a Chaplain when I play games. :P But you're right, the Command Squad gives us a rather special opportunity for something totally awesome.

(first i have to say that i don't really recall the rank of librarian titles, so i will assume that the epistolary is the LD10 special character, and that the regular 'librarian' is the LD9 HQ choice)

Lexicaniums (like myself :P) are the "novice" Librarians, and would only be one-wound, and thus aren't even represented in the rules any more. Codiciers are the two-wound Librarians found in C:DA/BA, as well as here, and Epistolaries are the senior, three-wound Librarians.

- all veterans in the command squad will be LD8

I guess that'd be in keeping with the other squads, so only Veterans/Terminators would be LD 9.

- codicier: replaces company champ, can get a psychic hood instead of the combat shield.

A "Lexicanium Champion"... that's pretty hot. I'd say give him a Force Weapon instead of Psychic Hood.

- lexicanum: replaces apothecary, can get an HQ psychic power.

Not too sure on that one, Apothecaries are still pretty vital to a Chapter's functioning, psykers or no.

- psyker adept: this is the typical command squad veteran, before buying upgrades, and each should be able to buy a veteran sgt psychic power (WOW factor! give your unit BS10!)

Sweet Emperor... that would definitely bring in the "Wow" factor, though I can't imagine a unit like that would be cheap. B) (I usually only use a Command Squad in Apocalypse, though, anyway)

- penitent: this is a LoO veteran sgt who has committed a questionable psychic act and is trying to atone for his ridiculous behavior - should have a rule involving wound allocation, or a rule saying that if someone takes perils of the warp, he takes it instead.

Meh. The intense discipline the LoO go through (not to mention their Iron Hands gene-seed) would make the odds of this extensively low, I think.

- familiar: you might want to allow the command squad to take an attachment of 5 of these (one for each marine), that give the entire squad +1 initiative and soak up wounds - make 'em 10 points each with the stats of a cenobyte servitor. you could even go as far as calling them psychic servitors or something like that.

That's another nice option. That could rack up to an extra +100 points, though, depending on the size of the squad (or we just keep it a straight "pack of five" for +50 points, and the squad gets +1 I as long as one's left). The Cenobyte stats would work, though, make them slightly less fragile. Dunno what models I could use, I've spent the last four years trying to find a good Familiar model for my regular Librarian, let alone enough for a whole squad! :P

final note on command squads - i don't recall all the fluff for the LoO, but if any of this is contradictory to it, it can always be streamlined to fit in.

I haven't said much on Command Squads. High Paladin Allerka is accompanied by a Terminator Command Squad known as the Chosen of Allerka, they're all veterans with Tabards of Fortitude, though I never really specified how exactly they fight, only that they're really nasty (as befitting a Chapter command squad). Also, the only fluff I have regarding a regular Command Squad is Captain Tiburin's squad in my Hunt for Veck story I was working on last Fall. I don't entirely remember what I wrote about, but I know I didn't say a whole lot about the squad. Plus, I'm planning on going back and re-writing parts of the story anyway, and actually finishing it, so I can tweak the part about them.

- units with 0-1/0-2 restrictions -
you can lift these restrictions because they usually all apply to Elite/FA/HS and those are no longer scoring units. the natural flow of 5th edition is contradictory to the 'elite army' and any fluff considerations can be compensated for by the inclusion/exclusion of weapon/upgrade choices. also, if you want to say something like 'this army only has like 10 suits of terminator armor' then we could just cut the terminators from the FOC completely. then we make them a 'unique' unit that functions much in the same way as a special character, but with fluff that makes them less unique.

Yeah, I suppose so. There's enough other drawbacks in place. The LoO have a normal number of suits of Termie armor, the 0-2 restriction on them was part of the whole "still rebuilding from almost being wiped out" aspect.

- dreadnoughts -
if the LoO have been around long enough to have venerable dreads, then they will probably have PSYCHIC venerable dreads! i know this has been mentioned before, but if it's something you don't want to explore, that's fine. it just sounds really, really attractive and something that players would jump ALL over. some ideas -

It seems like a natural choice. However, when I was also discussing this codex with my friends at my GW store, to get their feedback and suggestions, psyker dreads was the one thing they were VEHEMENTLY opposed to, along the lines of it would screw with the dread's intended function way too much. So, like Tech-Marines, I refrained from giving them powers. However... I think it can still be done, especially with the new changes we're implementing. BUT, we have to be extra careful here with what we allow the dread to be able to do.

- upgrades work similar to the venerable death company furioso dreadnought from the BA dex.

You mean the Bloody Frenzy thing? Meh.

- emanates a psychic aura with an area-of-effect ability (acts like a shooting attack that you can trigger once per turn).

Sounds like Fear of the Darkness would be simplest for that.

- could have either HQ psychic powers or veteran powers.

I think this might be the most straightforward approach, and would probably work best. I would probably go for just Veteran Powers, though.

- might go crazy from being such an old psyker? might make every other psyker around him go crazy? is this within the LoO fluff?

Ehh... the whole thing about the LoO is that they spend their whole lives training to NOT go crazy or give in to corruption, so I dunno how well that would work. I honestly have virtually no fluff on Dreadnoughts, beyond a snippet that one of the Dreadnoughts in the 3rd Company is the last Captain of it before Captain Tiburin took over (because the previous Captain, Nicholai Malphaus, was interred).

- scouts -
do you want scouts to really be a troop selection? if you do, you probably don't want them to count towards the minimum requirement of the FOC. this was the reason that the newer books moved them to elites - players were taking 2 units of 5 scouts as their troops. 5th remedies that specific problem by requiring lots of Troops selections, but it doesn't remedy the 'entirely infiltrating army' problem. this problem may remedy itself when the new SM dex releases, so it's not terribly pressing at the moment.

Well, the new vanilla 'dex is going to have them as Troops, plus, again, "rebuilding" aspect. Besides, with 5th edition, two 5-man squads of Scouts seems like a sure way to lose. As for "all infiltrating", it'd hardly be the only army capable of doing so (Tyranids, Ravenwing, Tau, etc.), so I don't really see a problem. It's not like Scouts are THAT awesome, anyway (not ruleswise, anyway, though I love the fluff and models).

- fast attack/heavy support -
with the exception of bikers, devastators and assault squads, these units are widely unaffected by the army's special traits. in fact, they almost seem contradictory to the army's fluff. i am not sure we need to do anything about it, but i look at the infantry units that have psykers... and then i see these completely extraneous FA and HS choices that don't feel like they're very integrated with the rest of the army.

True, the tanks and speeders don't really fit with the "army of psykers" theme, but they're still essential parts of how the Space Marines fight in general.

i'm not a fluff interpreter by any means, but i am familiar with it. i don't believe that the mechanicus necessarily uses any sort of psychics. but i know that they do create machines that focus psychic power, or channel it, and they do maintain the golden throne so they kinda have a grasp on what makes psychic 'gear tick.

They really don't. In fact, I just read Scourge the Heretic, and it mentions this psyker being accepted into the Cult Mechanicus, and then having the part of his brain that gave him psychic powers removed so he wasn't a psyker any more. But that was a sort-of drug deal to get the psyker's family out of being prosecuted for "harboring a psyker", and I'm pretty sure such an operation is rare. However, yes, they do make equipment that works with psychic energy.

however, i'm not sure if psykers and machine spirits get along. the only reason i mentioned the psyker dreadnought is because i never consider that type of unit to have a machine spirit; an undead marine controls it...

I've never read anything that says psykers and machine spirits can't mix. Though I do know machine spirits, like anything else, can be corrupted by Chaos. Dreadnoughts might have machine spirits, but probably more rudimentary ones meant to just run the life-support systems, while all major controls are still left to the pilot.

so is it worth writing some fluff that reconciles the use of machine spirits in a LoO army, or does that fluff already exist? if it's possible to utilize psychic stuff on vehicles, then we may want to translate some of the existing traits of the army into vehicle wargear so that the vehicles feel more like they fit in.

No, I haven't really written anything about the machine spirits of their wargear and vehicles. I've honestly never thought about it. :P Though the idea of vehicle wargear beyond the standard upgrades intrigues me.

we may want to ask Bannus if he has any input on this because he's got that whole Iron Hands army with a librarian and his machine spirit psychic power... just an idea.

Indeed. I'm honestly somewhat surprised he's never commented on anything in here (whether due to being busy, not noticing the project, or whatever).

harveydent · July 15, 2008

ALLERKA - READ THE PREVIOUS POST FIRST!

here's a quick write-up of how i envisioned the command squad. it's wide open for customization, since you can do whatever you want with the psychic powers. lots of desirability, and lots of testing required. it's definitely different than the standard, run-of-the-mill command squad, but it goes by a similar template and packs a huge punch just like the previous versions.

Command Squad_________________________________________ 100 points

The Command Squad does not use up any Force Organization Chart selections but is otherwise treated as a separate HQ unit.

Profile: As DA Company Veterans, but with LD8

Unit Composition:

5 Adepts

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolt Pistol

Frag grenades

Krak Grenades

Bolter or Chainsword

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Transport:

Command Squads may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

* Up to two Adepts may replace their chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points per model or a power fist for +25 points per model.

* Each Adept may take a single psychic power from the Adept Powers or Librarian Powers lists.

* One Adept may be upgraded to a Codicier equipped with a psychic hood for +10 points.

* One Adept may be upgraded to an Lexicanum equipped with a Force Weapon for +20 points.

* One Adept may be upgraded to a Penitent for +15 points.

* For every Librarian in the army, one Command Squad may be upgraded to include five familiars for + 25 points.

Penitent

Any time a member of the Penitent's Command Squad loses its last wound, the Penitent loses its last wound instead.

Familiar stats as in C:DH

Each member of a squad that includes a Familiar has +1 Initiative. No model may benefit from more than one Familiar at a time.

Edited July 15, 2008 by harveydent

Allerka · July 15, 2008

Alright, couple things with that would have to change. Base cost should be 105, and equipment should be bolter/BP/CCW, to match the rest of the army. I'm assuming the standard Champion/Standard Bearer/Apothecary options will still be there. I think we can safely ditch the Tech-Adept option, I don't think many people would take it. I'd also limit their psychic access to the Adept/Veteran List, a squad of five mini-Librarians might be going a little too far.

The codicier upgrade seems kinda cheap. +10 points for a second wound and a psychic hood? He'd have a force weapon, too. I think consolidating those two options into a single "Lexicanium Champion" who gets a FW instead of PW would work just fine. Unless we wanna make it an option to attach a regular Librarian as part of the squad, giving a possible 3 of them on the field.

I still don't like the Penitent idea, either. It just doesn't jive with the fluff.

As for Familiars, you wanna switch to the C:DH ones? Makes them a bit weaker, but can justify a drop in points.

I'm thinking maybe we can also toss out the Terminator Armor option the squad currently has, that just gets too insane with the prices. Plus, adding these other options will make the entry even bigger, and it's already taking up over half a page in the codex.

harveydent · July 15, 2008

I like the Familiar option, I don't see any reason we couldn't throw it in. Also the Invulnerable save armor thing (kinda makes him like a Farseer). Beyond that, I don't think we need to do much else, he's already got a wide range of powers (more-so than any other Librarian in the game), plus the Steeled Resolve rule already.

i just tried to think of just about everything that an imperial (or sometimes xenos) psyker might have for wargear... or something that i would like to see with the new edition and put it in there.

Hmm... I guess there's that. I'm not 100% on removing it before we're able to replace it with Combat Tactics, but ok. I think I'll allow Captain Tiburin to keep it, to help emphasis his special nature.

that's probably a good idea - keep it in the special characters. maybe raise his cost to reflect it.

Such as?

i'll come up with a list. probably will include psycannon bolts, familiars, some equipment that allows the avoidance of perils of the warp, something that allows the use of an additional power... stuff like that.

Lexicaniums (like myself :P) are the "novice" Librarians, and would only be one-wound, and thus aren't even represented in the rules any more. Codiciers are the two-wound Librarians found in C:DA/BA, as well as here, and Epistolaries are the senior, three-wound Librarians.

well, whatever you want to call the mini/sub-characters in the command squad is fine :)

I guess that'd be in keeping with the other squads, so only Veterans/Terminators would be LD 9.

yeah, pretty much... and the regular librarian.

A "Lexicanium Champion"... that's pretty hot. I'd say give him a Force Weapon instead of Psychic Hood.

see my next post - which you already did, and i will comment on next.

Not too sure on that one, Apothecaries are still pretty vital to a Chapter's functioning, psykers or no.

hmm... we could actually have 2 different types of command squads - 1 regular, 1 librarium. then we could still have the LD9 command squad with all the regular squad upgrade guys.

Sweet Emperor... that would definitely bring in the "Wow" factor, though I can't imagine a unit like that would be cheap. :) (I usually only use a Command Squad in Apocalypse, though, anyway)

with 5th edition, there is no unit that is off-limits when it comes to ramping up power level - unless of course the unit is completely invulnerable to shooting. i use command squads in my dark angels all the time (well i did for 4th ed), but to compensate for their small size i included the familiars.

Meh. The intense discipline the LoO go through (not to mention their Iron Hands gene-seed) would make the odds of this extensively low, I think.

i can live without a penitent. i just wanted to explore the possibilities.

That's another nice option. That could rack up to an extra +100 points, though, depending on the size of the squad (or we just keep it a straight "pack of five" for +50 points, and the squad gets +1 I as long as one's left). The Cenobyte stats would work, though, make them slightly less fragile. Dunno what models I could use, I've spent the last four years trying to find a good Familiar model for my regular Librarian, let alone enough for a whole squad! :)

i don't think it really matters which stat line we use. but they have to be cheap so i picked the DH book versions ... i think i priced five of them for 25 points total (they die fast, but they'll die less with cover saves).

I haven't said much on Command Squads. High Paladin Allerka is accompanied by a Terminator Command Squad known as the Chosen of Allerka, they're all veterans with Tabards of Fortitude, though I never really specified how exactly they fight, only that they're really nasty (as befitting a Chapter command squad). Also, the only fluff I have regarding a regular Command Squad is Captain Tiburin's squad in my Hunt for Veck story I was working on last Fall. I don't entirely remember what I wrote about, but I know I didn't say a whole lot about the squad. Plus, I'm planning on going back and re-writing parts of the story anyway, and actually finishing it, so I can tweak the part about them.

that all sounds really cool. tabards of fortitude! awesome!

It seems like a natural choice. However, when I was also discussing this codex with my friends at my GW store, to get their feedback and suggestions, psyker dreads was the one thing they were VEHEMENTLY opposed to, along the lines of it would screw with the dread's intended function way too much. So, like Tech-Marines, I refrained from giving them powers. However... I think it can still be done, especially with the new changes we're implementing. BUT, we have to be extra careful here with what we allow the dread to be able to do.

agreed. i'll think about it and let you know if i come up with anything usable... or whatever.

You mean the Bloody Frenzy thing? Meh.

i just meant the points structure.

e.g. 105 (furioso) + 20 (venerable) + 20 (death company) + 15 (extra armor).

OR

125 (dread) + 20 (venerable) + 20 (psychic) + X (psychic gear) + X (etc)

- emanates a psychic aura with an area-of-effect ability (acts like a shooting attack that you can trigger once per turn).
Sounds like Fear of the Darkness would be simplest for that.

i'm beginning to think that those C:SM powers are just old hat at this poing :( new, fresh, flashy... that's what i like!

- could have either HQ psychic powers or veteran powers.

I think this might be the most straightforward approach, and would probably work best. I would probably go for just Veteran Powers, though.

this is all contingent on the actual existence of a psychic dreadnought. lol. crazy.

True, the tanks and speeders don't really fit with the "army of psykers" theme, but they're still essential parts of how the Space Marines fight in general.

yup. definitely right about that. i don't want to remove them from the list - just tie them in better.

No, I haven't really written anything about the machine spirits of their wargear and vehicles. I've honestly never thought about it. :P Though the idea of vehicle wargear beyond the standard upgrades intrigues me.

just something else i'll ponder for a few days ;)

harveydent · July 15, 2008

Alright, couple things with that would have to change. Base cost should be 105, and equipment should be bolter/BP/CCW, to match the rest of the army. I'm assuming the standard Champion/Standard Bearer/Apothecary options will still be there. I think we can safely ditch the Tech-Adept option, I don't think many people would take it. I'd also limit their psychic access to the Adept/Veteran List, a squad of five mini-Librarians might be going a little too far.

well, i guess removing options like the tech adept/standard etc. depends on whether or not you want two different squads. i'm guessing no, but i still like the idea of a librarium command squad.

the only reason i could justify the unit of psykers with HQ psychic powers is their LD8... which was one of the reasons i included the penitent. but he is a wash, so i would use some new wargear to replace him. HOWEVER, i am getting off track on this. i agree they should probably just have the veteran powers.

The codicier upgrade seems kinda cheap. +10 points for a second wound and a psychic hood? He'd have a force weapon, too. I think consolidating those two options into a single "Lexicanium Champion" who gets a FW instead of PW would work just fine. Unless we wanna make it an option to attach a regular Librarian as part of the squad, giving a possible 3 of them on the field.

i just thought it would be neat to have one guy being the 'defensive psyker in training' and the other guy being the 'offensive psyker in training.' in fact, all the upgrades were supposed to reflect some aspect of a librarian, with the whole squad coming together to act as one whole.

also, i intentionally limited the weapon options so that the squad was all about using powers. they got a small range of equipment to use, but i figured at some point i would throw out some psychic wargear ideas that would be more appropriate to their psyker status.

I still don't like the Penitent idea, either. It just doesn't jive with the fluff.

it's cool. i'll try and incorporate it into some wargear.

As for Familiars, you wanna switch to the C:DH ones? Makes them a bit weaker, but can justify a drop in points.

definitely. also, it's best if the +1 initiative is a permanent bonus, just like for inquisitors - if you have it at the start of the game, you get it no matter what happens to the familiars.

I'm thinking maybe we can also toss out the Terminator Armor option the squad currently has, that just gets too insane with the prices. Plus, adding these other options will make the entry even bigger, and it's already taking up over half a page in the codex.

i'm all for that. no terminator/psyker/veterans. talk about a big hairy mess.

cool. i'm all giddy... but that's because i'm not sleeping much either (and it has nothing to do with clowns).

i had to finish my article for firebase ;)

Allerka · July 15, 2008

Whew! Lotta progress being made today, looks like. Certainly fine with me. :)

For Filinus, I'll throw in the added wargear when I have a chance, and keep the RoB on Tiburin. Since I'm working on the "background", "army list", and "hobby" sections for the codex as well, I can keep all the descriptions of the special rules in the fluff/rules page, then just the names in the actual roster section, just like GW books.

I like the idea of both a regular Command Squad and a Librarium Command Squad. That actually would really, really fit, I think. Plus it lets us go crazy with both the standard upgrades and the new psyker powers, without having one squad of 5-10 guys that costs 600 points and still dies to a single salvo of Tau shooting. ;) B)

For Familiars, the DH ones are fine, I wouldn't expect them to really sway a battle anyway, except through the I boost. Allowing the whole squad to keep the I boost works for me, too.

Tabards of Fortitude are something I covered earlier in the thread, they're basically an award given for attaining Veteran status without ever requiring any bionic replacements due to injury, and are a pre-requisite for becoming one of the Chosen. I had originally thought of making it an actual piece of wargear, but we decided to keep it to fluff-only.

For the Dreads, I wouldn't go with HQ powers, only Veteran powers. Or, maybe allow the Dread access to vehicle wargear, once we come up with that? ;)

i just thought it would be neat to have one guy being the 'defensive psyker in training' and the other guy being the 'offensive psyker in training.' in fact, all the upgrades were supposed to reflect some aspect of a librarian, with the whole squad coming together to act as one whole.

also, i intentionally limited the weapon options so that the squad was all about using powers. they got a small range of equipment to use, but i figured at some point i would throw out some psychic wargear ideas that would be more appropriate to their psyker status.

If we go with a Librarium Command Squad, the limitations are fine. I don't see much need to allow a psychic hood upgrade for one, though, since the regular Librarian would already be there (and you can only use one hood to negate a power).

i'm all for that. no terminator/psyker/veterans. talk about a big hairy mess.

Oh, man, that'd be so insane... ;)

Unfortunately, all my original documents for the codex that I use to make changes are on my laptop harddrive which has become non-functional in the last couple weeks. So, until I can take it in to a data-recovery center and get my files back, there's not much I can do to actually update the codex properly, which is starting to irritate me, given the progress we're making (I had also updated the PDF a bit more, too, replacing True-Grit with Ultra-Grit and fixing some typos, but that version was only on the laptop drive, too >.<).

harveydent · July 15, 2008

I like the idea of both a regular Command Squad and a Librarium Command Squad. That actually would really, really fit, I think. Plus it lets us go crazy with both the standard upgrades and the new psyker powers, without having one squad of 5-10 guys that costs 600 points and still dies to a single salvo of Tau shooting. ;) B)

darn tau :)

For Familiars, the DH ones are fine, I wouldn't expect them to really sway a battle anyway, except through the I boost. Allowing the whole squad to keep the I boost works for me, too.

they're a good excuse to get some extra wounds in the squad without selling out to a completely altered rules set.

Tabards of Fortitude are something I covered earlier in the thread, they're basically an award given for attaining Veteran status without ever requiring any bionic replacements due to injury, and are a pre-requisite for becoming one of the Chosen. I had originally thought of making it an actual piece of wargear, but we decided to keep it to fluff-only.

hmm...gears turning.

For the Dreads, I wouldn't go with HQ powers, only Veteran powers. Or, maybe allow the Dread access to vehicle wargear, once we come up with that? ;)

i would be very much inclined to go with vehicle wargear.

If we go with a Librarium Command Squad, the limitations are fine. I don't see much need to allow a psychic hood upgrade for one, though, since the regular Librarian would already be there (and you can only use one hood to negate a power).

the reason for the hood in the command squad was to allow players to take a hood without having to use a librarian independent character.

Unfortunately, all my original documents for the codex that I use to make changes are on my laptop harddrive which has become non-functional in the last couple weeks. So, until I can take it in to a data-recovery center and get my files back, there's not much I can do to actually update the codex properly, which is starting to irritate me, given the progress we're making (I had also updated the PDF a bit more, too, replacing True-Grit with Ultra-Grit and fixing some typos, but that version was only on the laptop drive, too >.<).

hmm... looks like it's back to copy-pasting from a 'quote' post. that stinks. well, at the very worst we have a post-based 'dex until you complete the recovery process. good luck with that, btw. last time i had to do something similar i just bought a new hard drive and turned the old one into an external.

Allerka · July 15, 2008

the reason for the hood in the command squad was to allow players to take a hood without having to use a librarian independent character.

Oh, ok. I thought it said in there, somewhere the Librarium Command Squad could be taken if a Librarian was on the field. It makes sense to do it like that, anyway, though it could allow for added flexibility if it wasn't.

hmm... looks like it's back to copy-pasting from a 'quote' post. that stinks. well, at the very worst we have a post-based 'dex until you complete the recovery process. good luck with that, btw. last time i had to do something similar i just bought a new hard drive and turned the old one into an external.

Yeah, we can just go back to the B&C format we were originally using, if we have to. My laptop's only about six months old, so I called Lenovo about it, and they sent a replacement drive out right away, which I've got, and I've got 30 days to return the broken one without being charged. Hopefully the recovery center can do it by then. I tried plugging the old one right into my PC, but it can't be read at all. I have no idea what happened to it, it's working fine, I reset the system, suddenly it's all frakked. >.<

Allerka · July 19, 2008

Alrighty, well, while I try to get the data off my busted hard drive, let's summarize the changes here. First up is a re-write of the special rules section:

Special Rules

And They Shall Know No Fear

Combat Squads

Strength of Mind

The Lords of Oblivion place strength of mind above all other virtues, for the mightiest gun in the universe is useless if there is no one with the will or resolve to pull the trigger. For reasons unknown outside the Chapter, the Lords of Oblivion can call upon more Librarians than normal. Many officers within the Chapter are also psykers in their own regard, having decades of combat experience to refine their latent powers into something usable.

All Lords of Oblivion Independent Characters and Veteran Sergeants gain the "Psyker" special rule. Models with the Psyker special rule may, in addition to their normal wargear options, select one power from the Veteran Powers list, given below. Note that models with the Psyker rule do not gain access to force weapons or psychic hoods, unless specifically stated otherwise (i.e. only Librarians and Librarium Honor Guard).

(The LD will be represented in the basic profile for the units)

Devastated (I'm going to keep this one more for fluff reasons, but remove the other unit restrictions)

Psychic Powers

Major Powers

Storm of the Emperor's Wrath

Fury of the Ancients

Might of Heroes

Word of the Emperor

Veil of Time

Vortex of Doom

Fear of the Darkness

Holocaust

Purgatus

Veteran Powers (these are just the first names that came to mind, I'm sure we can come up with something better)

Intimidation: The unit counts as having done +2 wounds in each round of close combat. +10 points

Swiftness: The unit may add +2 to any roll made for difficult terrain tests, run moves, fall-back moves, or consolidation moves (maximum of 6 for a roll, or 12 for falling back). +20 points

Calculated: When rolling for reserves, add +2 to your roll to bring this unit into play. +15 points

Accuracy: The unit adds +2 to its ballistic skill. +30 points

Motivation: The unit adds +1 to its leadership (maximum of 10). +10 points

Deadly: The unit adds +1 to its weapon skill. +20 points

Obscured: When making armor or cover saves, the psyker adds +1 to his roll (a roll of 1 will always fail). +10 points.

New Units

Librarium Honor Guard_________________________________________ 105 points (I decided to change up the name to help distinguish them from regular Command Squads)

The Librarium Honor Guard does not use up any Force Organization Chart selections but is otherwise treated

as a separate HQ unit.

Profile: As DA Company Veterans, but with LD 8

Unit Composition:

5 Space Marine Adepts

Unit Type:

Infantry

Wargear:

Power armor

Bolter

Bolt Pistol

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

Chainsword

Special Rules:

ATSKNF

Psyker

Transport:

The Honor Guard may select a dedicated transport vehicle.

Options:

* Each Adept may take a single power from the Veteran Powers list at the cost given.

* Up to two Adepts may replace their chainsword with a power weapon for +15 points

per model or a power fist for +25 points per model.

* Up to two Adepts may replace their bolter with a flamer for +5 points per model,

a melta-gun for +10 points per model, or a plasma gun for +15 points per model.

* May upgrade one Adept to a Lexicanium Champion, by replacing his chainsword with a

force weapon and giving him a combat shield for +30 points.

* May upgrade one Adept to a Lexicanium Defender, and give him a psychic hood for +15 points.

* If the army includes at least one Librarian, the Honor Guard may take a pack of five Familiars for

+25 points.

Familiars (Stats as in C:DH): All members of the squad gain +1 I for the duration of the battle if this option is taken.

Colrouphobic · July 19, 2008

I like how this is shaping up there Allerka. Not much I can say about it since I am far from as accomplished as others on here (meaning: it looks great in my eyes :) )

Allerka · July 19, 2008

I like how this is shaping up there Allerka. Not much I can say about it since I am far from as accomplished as others on here (meaning: it looks great in my eyes ^_^ )

Thanks, Col. Feel free to download a copy of the codex once we're done (it's got your work in it, too!). Also, I just found out a couple days ago what your SN means. Awesome!

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