Codex: Lords of Oblivion Project

[Allerka]

Quick update, the data on my broken hard drive was successfully recovered, and I'll be getting it back tomorrow, so I should have a fully-updated copy of the codex this weekend!

[Allerka]

Ok, I've overhauled the codex a bit. A vastly updated version can now be downloaded from the link my signature. Here's a run-down of what I've changed.

 

Universal: Completely eliminated True-Grit, and replaced with Ultra-Grit (i.e. all units have bolters, BPs, and CCWs as standard).

Special rules: Adjusted ATSKNF to remove the reference to Last Man Standing tests, as they don't exist any more. Added Combat Tactics. Also tweaked Combat Squads so that squads can split whenever the unit arrives on the board if they wish(i.e. when squads Drop Pod in). Changed Strong in Mind to say all ICs and Veteran Sergeants gain the Psyker special rule, and models with that rule may purchase one power from the Veteran Powers list at the given costs. No change to Devastated.

 

Psychic Powers: Replaced all Librarian powers with the new C:SM powers. Added Veteran Powers list, consisting of Intimidation, Swiftness, Calculated, Accuracy, Motivation, Deadly, Obscured. If anyone has any better names, feel free to suggest them.

Special characters: Captain Tiburin - raised WS to 6, no other changes. Master Chaplain Walker - raised WS to 6, no other changes. Chief Librarian Filinus - Has access to all Librarian powers, and may use three per turn.

 

Added High Paladin Allerka entry - Has WS of 7, W 4, A 4, Incipio Ferrum - Terminator Armor with 4+ Inv save, Might of Manus - AP 4 Storm Bolter with no Inv. saves allowed, Dremori - counts as S6 power weapon and every unsaved wound dealt allows Allerka to take a psychic test with each successful test dealing a second wound with no saves of any kind allowed, Allerka also has Eternal Warrior, Stubborn, and Chapter Tactics makes all Veteran Powers 5 points cheaper (may increase this to 10 points cheaper).

 

Added Chosen of Allerka entry - Basically the Honor Guard selection, may only be taken if Allerka is also taken. Essentially a Terminator Squad with WS 5, LD 10, Stubborn, and FNP. Has regular Terminator Squad options.

 

 

HQ entries:

 

Reduced cost of all ICs by 10 points. Captain - Added bolter to standard gear, raised WS to 6, increased wargear options to include relic blade, gained Psyker rule. Librarian - reduced BS to 4, raised LD to 10, changed psychic powers to allow up to two from the list to be taken, also ability to use two powers per turn is built in. Chaplain - reduced BS to 4, raised LD to 10, gained Psyker rule, no other changes.

 

Command Squad: Streamlined entry slightly, removed Tech-Adept, altered wargear options to reflect upcoming C:SM changes (all Veterans can take special weapons), added Storm Shields and Bikes as options, retained Veteran Sergeant (both for Psyker rule and because having a Command Sergeant just makes sense from a military standpoint).

 

Added Librarium Honor Guard entry, consists of five Librarium Adepts. Up to two may take CC weapons or special weapons, one may be upgraded to a Lexicanium Champion and receive a force weapon and combat shield for +30 points, one may upgraded to a Lexicanium Defender and receive a psychic hood and LD 9 for +15 points. All models are Psykers, and, if a Librarian is in the army, a pack of five familiars may be purchased for +25 points, which give the squad a permanent +1 bonus. Overall, a very powerful unit, but can get horribly expensive very easily.

 

 

Elites:

 

Techmarine: Added "Fortification" rule (+1 cover save to one piece of terrain), no other changes.

 

Veteran Squad: Added Combat Tactics. No other changes at this time (want to wait until new codex is out so I know exactly how the Sternguard and Vanguard are structured).

 

Terminator Squad: Added Combat Tactics, no other changes.

 

Dreadnought: No changes (we still need to come up with vehicle wargear), but will alter entry for Venerable Dreadnought in the full-rules section (the part of the codex with the full rules for everything, which is still in the works) to reflect new changes.

 

 

Troops:

 

Tactical Squad: Reduced cost, reduced Veteran Sergeant LD to 8, changed entry to reflect "free" weapon upgrades in new C:SM, added Combat Tactics, increased weapon options for Veteran Sergeant.

 

Scouts: Retained as Troops choice, also retained current cost until we figure out what the new cost will be. Reduced BS to 3, but kept WS at 4 as that's more fluffy for the LoO. Scout Sergeant retains BS 4, and has LD of 8. Added Combat Tactics and Scout rules, as well as option for Camo Cloaks, and I'll adjust the full-size entry to reflect the special ammo option for the heavy bolter.

 

 

Fast Attack:

 

Assault Squad: Added Combat Tactics, reduced Veteran Sergeant LD to 8, added option for flamers, reduced cost to reflect upcoming changes, increased Veteran Sergeant weapon options to include relic blade and a pair of LCs.

 

Bike Squadron: Reduced Veteran Sergeant LD to 8, added Combat Tactics, increased number of additional bikes that can be purchased to five. Will adjust full-size entry to allow for Combat Squads if an attack bike is taken.

 

Attack Bike Squad: No changes.

 

Land Speeder Squadron: No changes until we figure out the full details of how they're changed.

 

 

Heavy Support:

 

Devastator Squad: Added Combat Tactics, reduced Veteran Sergeant LD to 8, added weapon options for Veteran Sergeant. According to the battle report in the new rulebook, the weapons are somehow cheaper in a Dev Squad, but I'm not sure how exactly, so I just reduced the cost of everything by 5 points (unless it turns out the base cost of the unit itself is somehow cheaper, but I doubt that, given their being identical to Tactical Squads when "naked"). I also refrained from adding the signum option for the Veteran Sergeant, as that conflicts with the Accurate psychic power, which is way better anyway.

 

Land Raider: Added option for pintle-mounted multi-melta at +15 points. Increased transport capacity to 12 (as per new standard).

 

Land Raider Crusader: Removed pintle-mounted multi-melta from wargear and placed in options section.

 

Predator: Reduced points cost by 10 points (taking the battle report into account again).

 

Whirlwind: No changes.

 

Vindicator: Removed Dozer Blade option and added Siege Shield to standard wargear.

 

Rhino: No change.

 

Razorback: No change until more details on new options are available.

 

Drop Pod: Reduced cost to 35 points, increased capacity to 12. Also increased BS to 3 based on statements that "the Machine Spirit is more accurate".

 

 

And that should be the bulk of the changes. I'm basically refraining from adding any of the new stuff until I have more thorough and concrete details on them, I don't want to screw up their entries. I'm also considering whether or not to even allow some of the new things as options, to maybe restrict the list a little to help balance out the advantages gained in other areas.

 

I wanna give it a whirl in an actual game, see how it does. I kinda feel like the codex is in a "half-built" stage right now, though, while we wait for the new C:SM to come out. Maybe if I finish up the background/rules sections of the codex, I'll feel a bit better about it, as that'll let me expound on some of the details, and flesh out what feel like huge gaping holes to me right now.

[Allerka]

For additional reference, here's a sample 1750 list I threw together using the current incarnation. Uses some of the new stuff, like a Librarium Honor Guard squad, and almost everyone that can take a psychic power has one.

 

EDIT: Removed list since it's pretty much not valid any more.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Allerka

[harveydent]

ok, i've seen the new SM book, and there is a LOT of stuff that is different. we need to pick which format we want to go with:

 

DA/BA or new SM

 

...or we could go for a happy medium between the two. i'll have a lot more in the way of comments in the next couple of days.

Edited September 5, 2008 by harveydent

[Allerka]

Honestly, I'd rather lean more towards the new C:SM, as the LoO are supposed to be more or less Codex, as opposed to a variant of the DA's or BA's. If there's anything I got drastically wrong, let me know. I wanna make sure I've got all my costs properly adjusted ASAP, so I can start playing games with it again.

[harveydent]

the reason i mentioned it is because the version we've got right now is so much more like the BA/DA books than the new SM book.

 

once i get a chance to look through the new book a bit more i can begin to compare costs, but at the moment i don't remember them too well.

[Allerka]

Yeah, I just got to look through it myself a little while ago (My first reaction upon seeing it on the shelf was basically "OhmyGodOhmyGodOhmyGodOhmyGodOhmyGodOhmyGodOhmyGod!!!" :lol: ).

 

I can see I've got a LOT of formatting changes to make, as well as minor tweaks to points costs. Nothing too terribly severe, at least, but now I've got a much better idea of where everything should be at.

 

Some things I could see needing changes:

 

-Captain Tiburin should probably go up a few points (maybe 10).

-Master Chaplain Walker should probably go down a few.

-Chief Librarian Filinus should definitely go up a bit (maybe up by 30).

 

-All ICs should go back up to where they were before, with the Librarian possibly going even higher than before.

-Should change wargear costs to reflect their prices in C:SM, as well as alter the formatting of options to match.

-Should add some of the new units (Sternguard, Vanguard, and Thunderfire. I'm debating about whether or not to include the MotF and Redeemer, to impose at least a little restriction for using an alternate ruleset).

 

Gimme a couple more days to work over it and bring it more in line with things. I'm probably going to be living at my game store while I cross-check everything. :lol:

[Allerka]

Ok, got a bunch of the unit entries updated. I'll go over the full details in the morning, I need to get to bed. :o

 

EDIT: The updates have been posted to the link in my signature.

 

EDIT AGAIN: Ok, good morning. Here's the changes.

 

SPECIAL RULES

 

Updated Combat Squads to match what it actually says in the codex, tweaked Devastated to state many units will have the "Unique" rule added to their Unit Composition, thereby eliminating the need for 0-1 notations in unit entries.

 

Units which are (or will be) marked as Unique:

 

-All special characters

-Company Captains

-Chaplains

-Sternguard Veteran Squad

-Vanguard Veteran Squad

 

UNIT LISTINGS

 

Many units have been updated to have their formatting and options accurately matched. These include:

 

-All HQ units

-Techmarines

-Sternguard Veterans

-Terminator Squads

-Both Troops choices

-Assault Squads

-Attack Bike Squads

-Devastator Squads

 

The rest of the unit entries still need to be updated.

 

PLANNED DEVIATIONS

 

There's a few parts where I'm specifically deviating away from C:SM.

 

-Terminator Squad sizes, this ties into the "lack of resources", so I'm keeping them at 5-man squads only. I also kept the two squads as one consolidated entry, instead of separate entries for regular and assault variants, since I like it the way it is.

-Sergeant options in some squads, they're a little different from C:SM, this is to account for the fact that most of the Sergeants come with ultra-grit built in, as opposed to just a bolter and BP.

-Scouts have WS 4 to reflect the uber-martial lifestyle they followed on Firien before even becoming SMs. BS remains at 3. I raised their cost slightly to reflect this.

-Librarians have gone drastically up in cost, but this price seems balanced, relative to a C:SM Librarian with the Epistolary upgrade. In fact, LoO Libbies are going to come out on top, because they also get Stubborn and a better Psychic Hood for the same cost.

-Made Captains and Chaplains cost 5 points higher to account for ultra-grit and Psyker rule. Also left out a few options for the Captain to represent reduced resources.

-Sternguard costs 20 points more at 10-man size to account for Stubborn and ultra-grit.

 

OTHER THOUGHTS

 

-I think we can forget about vehicle wargear, it just doesn't really fit in, I think. Perhaps we can add the Psyker rule for venerable dreads? Obviously a couple of the powers wouldn't work, but most would still be applicable.

-Need to pay special attention to the Summary section, I think some of the numbers in there are off, but I'm having a little trouble cross-checking.

-I realized giving Accuracy to a Scout Sergeant in a squad full of snipers suddenly makes them useful again. Score!

-I'll try to get the rest of the entries updated today.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Allerka

[Allerka]

Quick update again, I've finished switching over all unit entries to the new format. Also added the Vanguard and Redeemer units (decided to go ahead and throw it in anyway, I think there's enough restrictions as-is, plus the list makes up for the added powers with points cost). Feel free to check out the current edition. There's some blank spaces, I still need to add the MotF, Storm, and Thunderfire, which I'll get to next.

[Allerka]

It is finished! I'm proud to announce, Codex: Lords of Oblivion v2.0 is now complete! The switch-over to the new C:SM format is complete, all new units have been added, final cost adjustments have been made, and I think we're ready for some games! Once again, thank you to everyone for your assistance over the last nine months in helping me realize this dream of mine, I definitely couldn't have done it without your help (especially Harveydent's).

 

Of course, the project will still continue to fine-tune units and make additional tweaks based on play-testing, but, for now, I'm considering it published! I'm off to the game store!

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the next stage will be creating the rest of the codex, as in the Background, Forces, and Hobby sections. Especially the Forces section, so I'll have full wargear descriptions there to help avoid inconsistencies, not to mention make things easier so one doesn't have to use two codexes for the same army.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Allerka

[harveydent]

ok, here are some comments, suggestions, etc.

 

strong in mind -

there is a lot of extraneous text in here, and you can probably get away with completely eliminating this rule sub-section. i know that there is the part about a unit NOT being able to gain more than one benefit from a veteran power, but i highly recommend removing this for a couple reasons: 1) it incentivizes putting psychic characters in units, which is something that 5E puts emphasis on and 2) either the costing of the veteran powers are appropriate, or they have a built-in limit. i think we should at least test the army w/out this rule and apply it later if need be.

 

IF you want to keep the rule (because it's a really cool sounding trait), i would suggest coming up with another special rule for the army :)

 

psychic powers -

Avenger is S5 (and there are a lot of little bits of text in the psychic powers that must be added, because a lot of them say "at start of librarian's X phase" and stuff like that).

 

veteran powers -

calculated - add sub-text "a roll of 1 always fails" (and needs to say "when rolling for reserves, you may add +2 to your roll to bring this unit (or the transport it's embarked in) into play")

motivation - i think the rule of "max 10 on any stat" is still around, so you remove the 'max 10' text.

deadly - i personally think we should remove this power because it's too 'chaos' for me... but whatever.

i'm going to beat a dead horse here and say that all the powers should be a uniform +2.

 

allerka -

he probably needs to go up in cost. having a 2+/3+ and being immune to instant death is really, really powerful, and his weapon gets around all the stuff that is immune to instant death - he is basically a hive tyrant that can't be killed as easily. maybe 275 would be more appropriate.

 

dremori -

you can say "counts as a relic blade, but in addition..." or something like that. of course this would require the addition of the relic blade to the LoO armory, but why not.

 

chosen of allerka -

you should probably put their entire entry as a sub-entry for allerka, since it's the only way they can be fielded (as his personal retinue). you included the text 'must be joined by allerka' which is kind of odd since it leaves a lot of room for interpretation.... which is the reason i made the sub-entry suggestion. you won't need the extra rules for him joining the unit, or the rule that says he loses character status because the 5E book covers this in the section about characters w/retinues. the FNP rule is pretty darn powerful, and 220 is too cheap for this unit. the dark angels can't even get this (they're stuck with a pre-5E narthecium). i would increase the cost to at least 235 (and maybe more if needed later on).

 

characters/sergeants -

for the sake of consistency, the psyker keyword should be added to all these. also, the ability to choose a veteran power should be added to all of them as well. (also, this will help eliminate possible questions like "can allerka get a veteran power?")

 

sternguard -

should be "buy up to 5 additional for 25 points each" (unless you intended to make them different??) is this price change to accommodate the inclusion of the CCW?

 

venerable dread -

get rid of this entry, and instead add a section to the regular dreadnought (see next comment)

 

dreadnought -

allow the dread to be upgraded to a 'psyker' for +20 points and allow the purchase of up to 2 veteran powers. this will give players the ability to basically take a venerable dread, but with a few different options. modifications will have to be made to one or two of the veteran powers (in the form of parenthetical clauses), but nothing serious.

 

tac/scout squads -

i guess you just wanted to go with the 5/10 model for unit sizes - i'm cool with this, but why deviate from the 5E C:SM if you don't need to?

also - i'm not 100% sure, but 5E C:SM scout troopers are BS and WS3 - just something to check up on

they're also different costs - base 75 and +13/scout (+65) - so i'm just curious why the base is 80 and not 85, following the precedent of +10 for psyker sgt.

also - are you going to include the options for the new special grenade launchers?

 

assault squad/bike squad/scout bikes -

same questions as before regarding costs

 

vehicle wargear -

i have a few ideas for this stuff, but i don't have time to post them atm.

[Allerka]

ok, here are some comments, suggestions, etc.

 

strong in mind -

there is a lot of extraneous text in here, and you can probably get away with completely eliminating this rule sub-section. i know that there is the part about a unit NOT being able to gain more than one benefit from a veteran power, but i highly recommend removing this for a couple reasons: 1) it incentivizes putting psychic characters in units, which is something that 5E puts emphasis on and 2) either the costing of the veteran powers are appropriate, or they have a built-in limit. i think we should at least test the army w/out this rule and apply it later if need be.

 

IF you want to keep the rule (because it's a really cool sounding trait), i would suggest coming up with another special rule for the army :D

You can certainly add Psyker ICs to a unit, and separate powers can still make the unit really tough (for example, a Chaplain with a jump pack and Intimidation attached to an Assault Squad with Deadly, giving the squad WS 5 and +2 wounds for combat resolution). I'll see if I can clean up the wording a little, though. One of the reason I didn't want the powers to be stackable (aside from the fact that no other army can do that in 40K) was that I didn't want to make it possible for the Honor Guard to gain LD 10, which would make the Lexicanium Champion and Defender just as good as regular Librarians.

 

 

psychic powers -

Avenger is S5 (and there are a lot of little bits of text in the psychic powers that must be added, because a lot of them say "at start of librarian's X phase" and stuff like that).

Yeah, I need to go back and fix those up, now that I can see what the actual powers say, instead of just the one-line previews we had.

 

 

veteran powers -

calculated - add sub-text "a roll of 1 always fails" (and needs to say "when rolling for reserves, you may add +2 to your roll to bring this unit (or the transport it's embarked in) into play")

motivation - i think the rule of "max 10 on any stat" is still around, so you remove the 'max 10' text.

deadly - i personally think we should remove this power because it's too 'chaos' for me... but whatever.

i'm going to beat a dead horse here and say that all the powers should be a uniform +2.

Calculated: I can fix that up. Motivation: I guess I can take that out, I just wanted to make sure people didn't try to claim they had LD 11 models or something. Deadly: I don't see how it's too Chaosy. As for the +2, BS 6 with Accuracy is alright, but I think allowing Deadly to buff guys to WS 6 might be a bit much. WS 6 on a Vanguard Squad with Stubborn would make for some pretty hard-core fighters. I think the army's got enough CC punch as it is.

 

allerka -

he probably needs to go up in cost. having a 2+/3+ and being immune to instant death is really, really powerful, and his weapon gets around all the stuff that is immune to instant death - he is basically a hive tyrant that can't be killed as easily. maybe 275 would be more appropriate.

Yeah, a cost increase might do. I wouldn't put him on par with a Tyrant, he's still T 4. Basically the armor is Termie armor with a storm shield built into it.

 

 

dremori -

you can say "counts as a relic blade, but in addition..." or something like that. of course this would require the addition of the relic blade to the LoO armory, but why not.

Relic blades are going to be in there. But I didn't say Dremori would count as one because C:SM doesn't allow for characters in Termie armor to take any.

 

 

chosen of allerka -

you should probably put their entire entry as a sub-entry for allerka, since it's the only way they can be fielded (as his personal retinue). you included the text 'must be joined by allerka' which is kind of odd since it leaves a lot of room for interpretation.... which is the reason i made the sub-entry suggestion. you won't need the extra rules for him joining the unit, or the rule that says he loses character status because the 5E book covers this in the section about characters w/retinues. the FNP rule is pretty darn powerful, and 220 is too cheap for this unit. the dark angels can't even get this (they're stuck with a pre-5E narthecium). i would increase the cost to at least 235 (and maybe more if needed later on).

Good idea, that'd simplify it a bit. I was thinking 220 was a little cheap, too. I'll bump it to 235.

 

 

characters/sergeants -

for the sake of consistency, the psyker keyword should be added to all these. also, the ability to choose a veteran power should be added to all of them as well. (also, this will help eliminate possible questions like "can allerka get a veteran power?")

Well, the core rule states "All Captains, Chaplains, and Veteran Sergeants", and I think one thing in the front would be a lot less cluttered than every entry having a line for "The Sergeant may also take a Veteran power...". I wonder if maybe I should throw in a FAQ page at the end to help make sure it's all consistent...

 

 

sternguard -

should be "buy up to 5 additional for 25 points each" (unless you intended to make them different??) is this price change to accommodate the inclusion of the CCW?

Honestly, I wanted to stick with more rigid squad sizes. C:SM is supposed to be extra flexible to account for the hundreds of different Chapters it's supposed to represent. As this codex is only reflecting one Chapter, I think the options should be a little more rigid. As for the points cost, the cost is increased to account for the addition of the CCW and Stubborn (basically two points per model).

 

 

venerable dread -

get rid of this entry, and instead add a section to the regular dreadnought (see next comment)

 

dreadnought -

allow the dread to be upgraded to a 'psyker' for +20 points and allow the purchase of up to 2 veteran powers. this will give players the ability to basically take a venerable dread, but with a few different options. modifications will have to be made to one or two of the veteran powers (in the form of parenthetical clauses), but nothing serious.

Oh, baby, that is hot. I'm so throwing that in. :tu:

 

 

tac/scout squads -

i guess you just wanted to go with the 5/10 model for unit sizes - i'm cool with this, but why deviate from the 5E C:SM if you don't need to?

also - i'm not 100% sure, but 5E C:SM scout troopers are BS and WS3 - just something to check up on

they're also different costs - base 75 and +13/scout (+65) - so i'm just curious why the base is 80 and not 85, following the precedent of +10 for psyker sgt.

also - are you going to include the options for the new special grenade launchers?

The LoO's homeworld of Firien is a highly martial culture with a borderline obsession with fighting, particularly in melee combat. To represent this warrior culture, pretty much everyone has Ultra-Grit, and Scouts are WS 4 instead (If the Guardsmen from Firien are WS 4, any Space Marines darn well better be, too! :P). As such, the cost is again raised.

 

I actually haven't increased the costs for anything for Psyker (the higher costs is all for the Ultra-Grit and/or Stubborn). That extra rule is more or less free, since it doesn't do anything by itself (and, if anything, leaves those models slightly more vulnerable to anti-psyker wargear some armies have, like BT's and DE).

 

As for Grenade Launchers, they're on the bikes, but that's going to be about it for them. Again, I wanted to limit IC options a little to represent the reduced resources they have.

 

 

assault squad/bike squad/scout bikes -

same questions as before regarding costs

Actually, the Assault Squad and Scout Bike costs were just a mistake on my part, though the Scout Bikers should still be slightly higher than normal for the WS4. I need to fix those. Bike Squads are the appropriate costs.

 

vehicle wargear -

i have a few ideas for this stuff, but i don't have time to post them atm.

'Mkay. 'Bout all I can think of is stuff similar to the Veteran Powers (+1 to BS, +1 to Cover saves, ignore Shaken results on 4+). There's not quite as much that we can do here. Though, if we do it more in the context of powers the crew has to improve their performance, as opposed to actual modifications to the vehicles themselves, that might give us some room to work with...

[harveydent]

strong in mind -

 

You can certainly add Psyker ICs to a unit, and separate powers can still make the unit really tough (for example, a Chaplain with a jump pack and Intimidation attached to an Assault Squad with Deadly, giving the squad WS 5 and +2 wounds for combat resolution). I'll see if I can clean up the wording a little, though. One of the reason I didn't want the powers to be stackable (aside from the fact that no other army can do that in 40K) was that I didn't want to make it possible for the Honor Guard to gain LD 10, which would make the Lexicanium Champion and Defender just as good as regular Librarians.

 

ahh, but it's not how good you are at close combat; it's about what you do after you win :P i mean, if you want to put a chaplain w/assault squad and give them those two powers, that's going to cost around 400 points. i think i'm ok with 1/4 of your army being in one non-scoring unit. as far as giving multiple 'buffers' to a unit, on a 'theory' level, IG have been able to do it for a long, long time. 4E C:SM could do it. BT can do it. new 5E SM can do it. SoB can do it. DE can do it. the entire range of tyranids do it. i don't want to list all the specifics. but if there's one super trick that this codex has, it's the ability to mix and match your psychic veteran skills.

 

...and just wait until someone faces my WS10 honor guard :tu: of course they only have T4 W1 Sv 3+, but noone is hitting them on 3+ EVER (except those damned space wolves), and most will hit them on 5+.

 

veteran powers -

As for the +2, BS 6 with Accuracy is alright, but I think allowing Deadly to buff guys to WS 6 might be a bit much. WS 6 on a Vanguard Squad with Stubborn would make for some pretty hard-core fighters. I think the army's got enough CC punch as it is.

 

let's at least try it. i think if we get the correct costs on all of it (with +2 for all of them), it will be mega-cool.

 

dremori -

Relic blades are going to be in there. But I didn't say Dremori would count as one because C:SM doesn't allow for characters in Termie armor to take any.

 

ahh, well, you can pretty much do anything you want with special characters. look at logan grimnar!

 

characters/sergeants -

Well, the core rule states "All Captains, Chaplains, and Veteran Sergeants", and I think one thing in the front would be a lot less cluttered than every entry having a line for "The Sergeant may also take a Veteran power...". I wonder if maybe I should throw in a FAQ page at the end to help make sure it's all consistent...

 

it's much better to clutter things up a little by applying keywords where necessary than to have people flipping back and forth in rulebooks looking for this and that. they already do it with the rest of the keywords for units (ATSKNF, combat tactics, etc).

 

 

vehicle wargear -

'Mkay. 'Bout all I can think of is stuff similar to the Veteran Powers (+1 to BS, +1 to Cover saves, ignore Shaken results on 4+). There's not quite as much that we can do here. Though, if we do it more in the context of powers the crew has to improve their performance, as opposed to actual modifications to the vehicles themselves, that might give us some room to work with...

 

oh believe me, there is some cool stuff that can be done with this :D just gimme a bit and i'll throw a few things your way.

[Allerka]

ahh, but it's not how good you are at close combat; it's about what you do after you win ;) i mean, if you want to put a chaplain w/assault squad and give them those two powers, that's going to cost around 400 points. i think i'm ok with 1/4 of your army being in one non-scoring unit. as far as giving multiple 'buffers' to a unit, on a 'theory' level, IG have been able to do it for a long, long time. 4E C:SM could do it. BT can do it. new 5E SM can do it. SoB can do it. DE can do it. the entire range of tyranids do it. i don't want to list all the specifics. but if there's one super trick that this codex has, it's the ability to mix and match your psychic veteran skills.

 

...and just wait until someone faces my WS10 honor guard :) of course they only have T4 W1 Sv 3+, but noone is hitting them on 3+ EVER (except those damned space wolves), and most will hit them on 5+.

Well, I was just giving that as an example. :P As for buffers, I wasn't aware stuff like bio-morphs could stack. I know Eldar Warlock powers don't stack, which was the main inspiration for these. You can still get a great amount of variety with everyone taking different powers. Plus, with stacking, you have things like an IC with Accuracy attached to a Dev Squad with Accuracy too, meaning you've got a Dev Squad now shooting at BS 8. I think that might be a bit OTT, even if it'd be expensive.

 

Though a WS 10 Honor Guard squad might be fun... :P

 

veteran powers -

As for the +2, BS 6 with Accuracy is alright, but I think allowing Deadly to buff guys to WS 6 might be a bit much. WS 6 on a Vanguard Squad with Stubborn would make for some pretty hard-core fighters. I think the army's got enough CC punch as it is.

 

let's at least try it. i think if we get the correct costs on all of it (with +2 for all of them), it will be mega-cool.

I guess so. I don't see much point to make Obscured +2, though. Motivation at +2 would, again, make the Honor Guard just as powerful as Librarians, if not moreso because the FW and Hood are hidden within the squad (kinda).

 

 

dremori -

Relic blades are going to be in there. But I didn't say Dremori would count as one because C:SM doesn't allow for characters in Termie armor to take any.

 

ahh, well, you can pretty much do anything you want with special characters. look at logan grimnar!

Heh, true. I think it's fine as-is, though.

 

 

it's much better to clutter things up a little by applying keywords where necessary than to have people flipping back and forth in rulebooks looking for this and that. they already do it with the rest of the keywords for units (ATSKNF, combat tactics, etc).

Hmm, I guess so Guess I can just throw in another line underneath the melta-bombs entry, "a Veteran Power", though the cost next to it would be, "cost listed"?

 

 

oh believe me, there is some cool stuff that can be done with this :) just gimme a bit and i'll throw a few things your way.

Heh, alright, then. :D

[Allerka]

Alright, made some changes. Unfortunately, I've been told the codex is somehow getting a little too close to the official one, so I've had to remove any direct links to it. However, it's still being hosted and updated at the same place it's been at, so you can still get it from there.

 

Anyway, here's the latest batch of changes:

 

-Strong In Mind: Changed the wording up a little, hopefully it's not quite so cumbersome now.

-Changed Deadly to +2 WS, and increased the cost.

-Increased the cost of Allerka and the Chosen, and fixed up the Chosen entry so they're a retinue option for Allerka.

-Added an entry under special rules of "Psyker (Sergeant only)" in all applicable units, as well as a new option "The Sergeant may take a Veteran power.....cost listed". Fairly straightforward, makes the entries slightly bulkier, but not by much, fortunately.

-Kept the Venerable Dreadnought entry, but removed the Venerable rule, made it WS/BS 4, and added Psyker, along with the option "May take TWO Veteran powers". I figured that'd be an easier way to list the option instead of cram it all into the regular Dread entry.

-Fixed erroneous points costs in several areas.

 

Think that's about it for now.

[harveydent]

Alright, made some changes. Unfortunately, I've been told the codex is somehow getting a little too close to the official one, so I've had to remove any direct links to it. However, it's still being hosted and updated at the same place it's been at, so you can still get it from there.

 

can you send me a link to it?

 

-Added an entry under special rules of "Psyker (Sergeant only)" in all applicable units, as well as a new option "The Sergeant may take a Veteran power.....cost listed". Fairly straightforward, makes the entries slightly bulkier, but not by much, fortunately.

 

i think it's for the best.

 

-Kept the Venerable Dreadnought entry, but removed the Venerable rule, made it WS/BS 4, and added Psyker, along with the option "May take TWO Veteran powers". I figured that'd be an easier way to list the option instead of cram it all into the regular Dread entry.

 

hmm... so the psyker dread has regular dread stats, but has the psyker trait, and costs 165 base? can you just pick two powers for it, or do you have to pay for them?

 

the reason i ask is because without the WS/BS5 and the venerable 're-roll damage' ability, it's not worth anywhere near 165.

 

if you were to add the psyker trait to the regular dread and allow it to purchase two vet abilities, its base cost should only be 120.

 

hmm...

 

as far as vehicle wargear, here are a few ideas i've been working on. I like the cycles (icons and seals) alot, and some of the other ones are neat, but mostly fluffy. The final one is meant to be a 'chapter bonus' icon (oblivion). let me know what you think.

 

Psycannon Bolts (as DH).

10 points

 

Warp Apex - Subtract 2 from any psychic test taken within 6" of this vehicle (natural 12 will not cause perils of the warp, but a modified roll of 2 or less will).

10 points

 

Warp Polarization - If a psyker is tank shocked by, or loses a combat involving this vehicle, it suffers perils of the warp.

10 points

 

Psychic Emanation - Any unit within 6" of this vehicle including one or more psykers counts as having done 1 additional wound in close combat.

15 points

 

Empyrean Shock - Counts as a S4 shooting attack. Each model within 6" of this vehicle takes a S4 hit. Models in units that include a psyker ignore this.

25 points

 

Psychic Beacon - Units which include a psyker may deep strike or teleport within 6" of this vehicle without scattering (transports containing a psyker do not benefit from this rule).

15 points

 

Seals of Cleansing - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Preferred Enemy special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

25 points.

 

Seals of Command - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Stubborn special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

20 points.

 

Seals of Resistance - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Counter-Attack special rule if charged by a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

15 points.

 

Seals of Fortitude - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Feel No Pain special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

25 points.

 

Icon of Doom - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it is open-topped. If the psyker disembarks, this effect continues until the end of the turn.

20 points.

 

Icon of Fate - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it gains a 4+ invulnerable save. If the psyker disembarks, this effect continues until the end of the turn.

50 points.

 

Icon of Destiny - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it ignores any damage result of 'immobilized.'

30 points.

 

Icon of Oblivion - This vehicle has BS 10.

50 points.

[Allerka]

can you send me a link to it?

Done.

 

 

i think it's for the best.

Indeed. It just looks slightly awkward, I think, because there's no cost listed.

 

 

hmm... so the psyker dread has regular dread stats, but has the psyker trait, and costs 165 base? can you just pick two powers for it, or do you have to pay for them?

 

the reason i ask is because without the WS/BS5 and the venerable 're-roll damage' ability, it's not worth anywhere near 165.

 

if you were to add the psyker trait to the regular dread and allow it to purchase two vet abilities, its base cost should only be 120.

 

hmm...

No, I reduced the cost to 125. With two powers, it'll still run around 165. Possibly more, depending on the options you give (Accuracy and Obscured with two long-range weapons would make for a nice fire-support unit that'll be hard to kill).

 

 

as far as vehicle wargear, here are a few ideas i've been working on. I like the cycles (icons and seals) alot, and some of the other ones are neat, but mostly fluffy. The final one is meant to be a 'chapter bonus' icon (oblivion). let me know what you think.

Whoa. That's some nice stuff! Lotta options, too.

 

 

Psycannon Bolts (as DH).

10 points

I like. Nice and simple. In.

 

 

Warp Apex - Subtract 2 from any psychic test taken within 6" of this vehicle (natural 12 will not cause perils of the warp, but a modified roll of 2 or less will).

10 points

I like. Dunno how often a vehicle would be within 6" of a psyker and either of them would still be standing (maybe having tank-shocked the psyker's unit or something)... In.

 

 

Warp Polarization - If a psyker is tank shocked by, or loses a combat involving this vehicle, it suffers perils of the warp.

10 points

Heh, gives more incentive to go crazy when I've got nothing better to do with my Rhinos. In.

 

 

Psychic Emanation - Any unit within 6" of this vehicle including one or more psykers counts as having done 1 additional wound in close combat.

15 points

Stackable with Intimidation, kinda. Maybe.

 

 

Empyrean Shock - Counts as a S4 shooting attack. Each model within 6" of this vehicle takes a S4 hit. Models in units that include a psyker ignore this.

25 points

It's like a mini-Gauss Arc. ;) In.

 

 

Psychic Beacon - Units which include a psyker may deep strike or teleport within 6" of this vehicle without scattering (transports containing a psyker do not benefit from this rule).

15 points

Portable homers! In!

 

 

Seals of Cleansing - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Preferred Enemy special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

25 points.

 

Seals of Command - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Stubborn special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

20 points.

 

Seals of Resistance - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Counter-Attack special rule if charged by a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

15 points.

 

Seals of Fortitude - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Feel No Pain special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

25 points.

Ha ha, now you're giving me flashbacks to my days as a paladin on WoW. ^_^ Not too sure about "with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save", I mean the Chapter is psyker-heavy, but we're not Daemonhunters. I think we'd need to tweak these a little first.

 

 

Icon of Doom - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it is open-topped. If the psyker disembarks, this effect continues until the end of the turn.

20 points.

 

Icon of Fate - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it gains a 4+ invulnerable save. If the psyker disembarks, this effect continues until the end of the turn.

50 points.

 

Icon of Destiny - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it ignores any damage result of 'immobilized.'

30 points.

 

Icon of Oblivion - This vehicle has BS 10.

50 points.

Mmmm, icons. :P So, I could have Icon of Doom on a Rhino, and the entire squad inside could open up, instead of just two guys. That might be something. Fate should be changed to a 4+ Cover save, it'd be just like the vehicle's obscured. Destiny's alright. And sweet mambo on Oblivion! SGT Chronus is more expensive than 50 points and he only gives the vehicle BS 5. BS 10 is like twin-linked BS 5, you're basically guaranteed to hit. We'll prolly need to drop that a bit.

 

Also, I'm wondering if we can re-name the icons to "Icon of" one of the elements of Oblivion (Fire, Shock, Frost, and Poison), help tie it all in a little more thematically.

[harveydent]

Whoa. That's some nice stuff! Lotta options, too.

 

couldn't sleep last night and i figured i would spew out some stuff - plenty of different options

 

Warp Apex

I like. Dunno how often a vehicle would be within 6" of a psyker and either of them would still be standing (maybe having tank-shocked the psyker's unit or something)... In.

 

here's a quick internal dialogue i was having when writing some of these:

 

psykers using the warp against the enemy

the enemy is chaos, so they use the warp

warp vs. warp?

good for me, bad for you

affect psychic test rolls ('cause we don't use 'em much)

cause perils? sure

keep these in check because they're not witchhunters

the psychic vehicle gear can be dangerous to use sometimes

that's what's keeping them in check - the abilities can backfire

psychics that stray too close to corruption when fighting corruption - sounds about right.

 

 

Warp Polarization

Heh, gives more incentive to go crazy when I've got nothing better to do with my Rhinos. In.

 

that was just a quickie-cheapo piece of gear - figured it would be good on a dread fighting a character or something.

 

Psychic Emanation

Stackable with Intimidation, kinda. Maybe.

 

i can live without it.

 

Empyrean ShockIt's like a mini-Gauss Arc. :P In.

 

but it's dangerous!! careful you don't lose a psyker and get smashed by it.

 

 

Psychic Beacon

15 points

Portable homers! In!

 

i didn't think there was anything else available for them (couldn't remember what the new C:SM has for this). it works for everything but pods. it probably shouldn't work for speeders either. can they deep strike now?

 

 

Seals of Cleansing - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Preferred Enemy special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

25 points.

 

Seals of Command - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Stubborn special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

20 points.

 

Seals of Resistance - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Counter-Attack special rule if charged by a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

15 points.

 

Seals of Fortitude - Units within 6" of this vehicle benefit from the Feel No Pain special rule while locked in combat with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save.

25 points.

Ha ha, now you're giving me flashbacks to my days as a paladin on WoW. :tu: Not too sure about "with a unit containing a model with an invulnerable save", I mean the Chapter is psyker-heavy, but we're not Daemonhunters. I think we'd need to tweak these a little first.

 

agreed. however, i don't know if you saw this or not, but it affects ANY unit. so if you have a sgt. with a combat shield or a retinue or an IC, they're getting hurt by these... which makes me think it needs to be changed even more.

 

howabout these:

 

Seals of Frost - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass morale tests caused by taking 25% casualties from shooting. (we're cool as cucumbers)

10 points.

 

Seals of Fire - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle may re-roll a single failed armor save each shooting phase. (i'll just shrug off all that fire)

20 points.

 

Seals of Shock - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass morale checks caused by tank shock, and this vehicle ignores ramming attacks. (nothing shocks us... literally)

15 points.

 

Seals of Poison - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass pinning checks, and no additional dice can be added to an armor penetration roll against this vehicle. (damned snipers with your silly poison darts - can't touch this... and you can't sniper our pimpin' ride either)

30 points.

 

they use the names you were talking about for the 'icons' (felt they were more appropriate thematically), and these new abilities seemed to fit better than adding a USR to multiple units.

 

 

Icon of Doom - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it is open-topped. If the psyker disembarks, this effect continues until the end of the turn.

20 points.

 

Icon of Fate - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it gains a 4+ invulnerable save. If the psyker disembarks, this effect continues until the end of the turn.

50 points.

 

Icon of Destiny - While a psyker is embarked in this vehicle (or the vehicle is a psyker), it ignores any damage result of 'immobilized.'

30 points.

 

Icon of Oblivion - This vehicle has BS 10.

50 points.

 

Mmmm, icons. :P So, I could have Icon of Doom on a Rhino, and the entire squad inside could open up, instead of just two guys. That might be something. Fate should be changed to a 4+ Cover save, it'd be just like the vehicle's obscured. Destiny's alright. And sweet mambo on Oblivion! SGT Chronus is more expensive than 50 points and he only gives the vehicle BS 5. BS 10 is like twin-linked BS 5, you're basically guaranteed to hit. We'll prolly need to drop that a bit.

 

yeah, the whole squad of guys could fire...but they could just as easily get out and fire as well. it's really all about assaulting out of a tank. FATE is supposed to be an invulnerable save because it's supposed to be fated/lucky/charmed - it works against barrage weapons that fire indirect :) Destiny is pretty darned awesome. you can't immobilize my land raider! glancing hits only cause weapon destroyed results at the most.

 

...as far as oblivion, what are you going to put it on? a predator annihilator is your best bet, but that's like 215 total (and the turret las is already twin-linked). maybe a destructor? actually that's pretty good. hmmm - howabout a vindicator that only deviates on an 11 or 12 :) it's no good on a land raider either because all that stuff is twin-linked as well. maybe a whirlwind that doesn't deviate? i think the shock value of the number 10 for a stat is just too good to pass up on this one, considering it's not that big of a power boost. and i think the reason chronus costs more is because he becomes a character after the tank dies.

Edited September 15, 2008 by harveydent

[Allerka]

couldn't sleep last night and i figured i would spew out some stuff - plenty of different options

Heh, yeah, had a few nights like that (even had one recently where I was working on my codex for like three hours from like 1-4 AM).

 

 

here's a quick internal dialogue i was having when writing some of these:

 

psykers using the warp against the enemy

the enemy is chaos, so they use the warp

warp vs. warp?

good for me, bad for you

affect psychic test rolls ('cause we don't use 'em much)

cause perils? sure

keep these in check because they're not witchhunters

the psychic vehicle gear can be dangerous to use sometimes

that's what's keeping them in check - the abilities can backfire

psychics that stray too close to corruption when fighting corruption - sounds about right.

Hmm, I wasn't even thinking about backlashes against my own guys. Yeah, that does add a bit of risk to it, definitely.

 

 

that was just a quickie-cheapo piece of gear - figured it would be good on a dread fighting a character or something.

Well, if a Dread's fighting a character, he'll probably squish the character no problem, anyway (Dreads tend to have that effect ;)).

 

 

but it's dangerous!! careful you don't lose a psyker and get smashed by it.

Oh, shoot, yeah, I didn't think it would affect my own guys too, but I see it would. Again, gives me something extra to do with a Rhino after it drops off its troops (charge the enemy and detonate, hee hee hee).

 

 

i didn't think there was anything else available for them (couldn't remember what the new C:SM has for this). it works for everything but pods. it probably shouldn't work for speeders either. can they deep strike now?

Locator Beacons are still pretty prolific. Tactical, Scout, and Scout Biker Sergeants, as well as Drop Pods, can take them. I would suggest lowering this power to +10 points, as regular beacons (that work for everything) range from +10 to +25 depending on who's taking them. And Land Speeders have always been able to Deep Strike.

 

 

agreed. however, i don't know if you saw this or not, but it affects ANY unit. so if you have a sgt. with a combat shield or a retinue or an IC, they're getting hurt by these... which makes me think it needs to be changed even more.

Yeah, I'm not too keen on stuff that'd buff the enemy. Stuff that might hurt me, maybe.

 

 

howabout these:

 

Seals of Frost - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass morale tests caused by taking 25% casualties from shooting. (we're cool as cucumbers)

10 points.

 

Seals of Fire - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle may re-roll a single failed armor save each shooting phase. (i'll just shrug off all that fire)

20 points.

 

Seals of Shock - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass morale checks caused by tank shock, and this vehicle ignores ramming attacks. (nothing shocks us... literally)

15 points.

 

Seals of Poison - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass pinning checks, and no additional dice can be added to an armor penetration roll against this vehicle. (damned snipers with your silly poison darts - can't touch this... and you can't sniper our pimpin' ride either)

30 points.

 

they use the names you were talking about for the 'icons' (felt they were more appropriate thematically), and these new abilities seemed to fit better than adding a USR to multiple units.

Those are pretty nice. I'd probably throw in "May only take one type of Seal", as the elements of Oblivion are technically supposed to be opposed to each other (kinda like the natural elements).

 

 

yeah, the whole squad of guys could fire...but they could just as easily get out and fire as well. it's really all about assaulting out of a tank. FATE is supposed to be an invulnerable save because it's supposed to be fated/lucky/charmed - it works against barrage weapons that fire indirect <_< Destiny is pretty darned awesome. you can't immobilize my land raider! glancing hits only cause weapon destroyed results at the most.

 

...as far as oblivion, what are you going to put it on? a predator annihilator is your best bet, but that's like 215 total (and the turret las is already twin-linked). maybe a destructor? actually that's pretty good. hmmm - howabout a vindicator that only deviates on an 11 or 12 :) it's no good on a land raider either because all that stuff is twin-linked as well. maybe a whirlwind that doesn't deviate? i think the shock value of the number 10 for a stat is just too good to pass up on this one, considering it's not that big of a power boost. and i think the reason chronus costs more is because he becomes a character after the tank dies.

Oh, man, an open-topped Rhino for assaulting... it'd pretty much be the Rhino Rush all over again. I dunno how many people would keen on that.

 

To be honest, I think maybe we should have either Seals or Icons, not both. That sort of overwhelms the options available. With one type, we have a total of seven options available, which seems like plenty to me. We should probably adjust the points a little for individual vehicle types, too, as obviously some would be better on others.

 

As for Chronus, he also allows the vehicle to ignore shaken and stunned, so that's also probably why he's more expensive.

[harveydent]

Hmm, I wasn't even thinking about backlashes against my own guys. Yeah, that does add a bit of risk to it, definitely.

 

yeah, i thought it would be interesting. it's just an alternate way of giving something a cost, but it definitely adds a bit of flavor.

 

Well, if a Dread's fighting a character, he'll probably squish the character no problem, anyway (Dreads tend to have that effect ;)).

 

ahhh, but if the character is part of a retinue he can't be singled out. also, if the character is on the far end of the squad he's with, he may not get into combat if the unit is charged. (think - thousand sons squad OR daemonhunters inquisitor lord w/retinue)

 

 

Locator Beacons are still pretty prolific. Tactical, Scout, and Scout Biker Sergeants, as well as Drop Pods, can take them. I would suggest lowering this power to +10 points, as regular beacons (that work for everything) range from +10 to +25 depending on who's taking them. And Land Speeders have always been able to Deep Strike.

 

hmm. since rhinos don't have the ability to get teleport homers, i think it's a unique bonus for this army. as long as it only allows deep-striking units including a psyker (and not in a transport) to avoid deviating.

 

Yeah, I'm not too keen on stuff that'd buff the enemy. Stuff that might hurt me, maybe.

 

yeah, that's why i re-wrote them :D

 

 

howabout these:

 

Seals of Frost - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass morale tests caused by taking 25% casualties from shooting. (we're cool as cucumbers)

10 points.

 

Seals of Fire - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle may re-roll a single failed armor save each shooting phase. (i'll just shrug off all that fire)

20 points.

 

Seals of Shock - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass morale checks caused by tank shock, and this vehicle ignores ramming attacks. (nothing shocks us... literally)

15 points.

 

Seals of Poison - Friendly units within 6" of this vehicle automatically pass pinning checks, and no additional dice can be added to an armor penetration roll against this vehicle. (damned snipers with your silly poison darts - can't touch this... and you can't sniper our pimpin' ride either)

30 points.

 

Those are pretty nice. I'd probably throw in "May only take one type of Seal", as the elements of Oblivion are technically supposed to be opposed to each other (kinda like the natural elements).

 

that's totally do-able. just put it in various vehicle entries as "may take one of the following upgrades" and you're good to go.

 

Oh, man, an open-topped Rhino for assaulting... it'd pretty much be the Rhino Rush all over again. I dunno how many people would keen on that.

 

To be honest, I think maybe we should have either Seals or Icons, not both. That sort of overwhelms the options available. With one type, we have a total of seven options available, which seems like plenty to me. We should probably adjust the points a little for individual vehicle types, too, as obviously some would be better on others.

 

As for Chronus, he also allows the vehicle to ignore shaken and stunned, so that's also probably why he's more expensive.

 

i think i have an idea. we can have a 'chapter relics' section for the icons, and maybe another couple of nifty pieces of gear (if we choose to include them), so that no matter what, you can only get 1 icon per army.

 

the seals can still be one per vehicle, but buying lots of them would be extremely prohibitive anyways, as long as their costs are correct.

 

i think they're all at least worth testing... maybe we can narrow down the choices later on.

[Allerka]

Ok, I have a battle report (I'll give more thoughts on vehicle wargear later)! It was 2000 points, against a tournament-level Daemons army (I'd never faced them at all, let alone one built to turn other players into weeping balls of shame). He had the usual tricks, Fateweaver, a Bloodthirster, a few Bloodcrushers, and three DPs. I took Captain Tiburin, a Librarium Honor Guard with two PWs, a Champion and Defender (neither of whom were really worth taking, given the enemy army, but I had built the list in advance as an all-comers) in a Razorback, four Tactical Squads with a mix of weapons and powers (two meltas, one plasma, one flamer, plus two missiles, one heavy bolter, and one multi-melta, finally two PFs and two PWs, and three SGTs with Obscured or Intimidation), all in Rhinos, an Assault Squad with 2 plasmas, a PF, and Intimidation, two Predators with TL-LCs and HB sponsons, and a stock Dreadnought. The mission was Capture and Control (two objectives) in a Pitched Battle.

 

Overall, the game was very back and forth. This was my first game against Daemons, my first game with the codex, and my first game really using Combat Squads heavily. Combat Tactics proved surprisingly useful, and it even won me the game at the end. The psychic powers were pretty spiffy without being too crazy, Intimidation actually worked out fairly well against the daemons, since their being Fearless meant they took two extra wounds if they lost, and it allowed me to win one round against the Bloodthirster. I probably would have had a far greater margin of victory were it not for all the blasted re-rolls Fateweaver gave the army. I also got lucky in that one of his DPs scattered and died upon teleport at the start.

 

Captain Tiburin was pretty vicious, he pretty much ate the remaining two Bloodcrushers my opponent had, then spent the rest of the game in combat against a large unit of Horrors (who were nigh unkillable because of their blasted re-rolls!). Then Fateweaver turned him into a spawn at the end of the last turn. :cry:

 

Meanwhile, in the very back corner, where he had placed his objective, he had a unit of Plaguebearers sitting on it. I charged two Rhinos with two Combat Squads towards them, and they managed to tear up most of the Plaguebearers before a massive unit of Bloodletters showed up (I had managed to keep the 'letters bottled up in a traffic jam for most of the game, amazing how effective Rhinos can be even as just roadblocks!). Luckily, one of the Rhinos was still kicking, and managed to contest his objective. Meanwhile, I had one of my remaining Combat Squads heading for my objective (I had forgotten until turn 5 that my Predator couldn't claim objectives any more, and I was down to three of my eight Combat Squads). However, they botched their Run move, and were just short. But then he fired at them with his sole remaining DP, killing a couple, and I voluntarily fell back the last guy with Combat Tactics, which gave me the remaining distance I needed, and so, I won the game with a single Tactical Marine!

 

Overall pretty intense, but it went pretty well, and the other guy didn't have any issues with imbalances, he thought it was all pretty cool (though he wasn't too keen on Intimidation losing him a few extra minions :P). A couple people were watching the game, and also had mostly positive things to say about the list. I showed Captain Tiburin's entry to one of the guys, and he thought it was pretty awesome (especially the fluff bit about Tiburin taking on a Dragon Lord named Nef'arien :wink:).

 

So, I'm feeling pretty happy about that. :D I'll be getting another game in on Wednesday, against another SM player, so let's see how that goes.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Allerka

[harveydent]

yeah, tiburin is going to come pretty close to being the most powerful character (for his cost) that a space marine army can take. he's slightly better than shrike (more attacks, better save, higher strength), and cheaper.

 

glad you had some good responses to the list. i think it's good that you're testing the vet powers in moderation. personally, i would take a lot of units with Accuracy and some vanguard veterans with Calculated... speaking of which, aren't they supposed to have that 'intervention' rule in here somewhere?

[Allerka]

Well, conversely, Shrike has a Jump Pack and gives everything Fleet, which, to me, lends itself more to abuse (I've already seen people point out technically even Bikes and Termies can Fleet in an army with him). Tiburin's just a CC monster with good LD (albiet a very, very hardcore one that is just too awesome for words half the time ^_^). Speaking of which, his Stubborn and Rites of Battle definitely helped, too.

 

And you're right, Heroic Intervention should be in there for the Vanguard entry, I'll have to fix that with the next round of revisions. Another thing I need to fix is Word mysteriously inserting random bullets into the document when I save it as a PDF.

 

I'm going to use the same list on Wednesday, then I'll try some other things with the next game after that.

 

 

As for the vehicle stuff...

 

ahhh, but if the character is part of a retinue he can't be singled out. also, if the character is on the far end of the squad he's with, he may not get into combat if the unit is charged. (think - thousand sons squad OR daemonhunters inquisitor lord w/retinue)

You're right, I always forget about the retinues. ;)

 

 

hmm. since rhinos don't have the ability to get teleport homers, i think it's a unique bonus for this army. as long as it only allows deep-striking units including a psyker (and not in a transport) to avoid deviating.

Yep, it can help (and just about everything in the army has at least one psyker in it, though most of them would come in via Drop Pod).

 

 

i think i have an idea. we can have a 'chapter relics' section for the icons, and maybe another couple of nifty pieces of gear (if we choose to include them), so that no matter what, you can only get 1 icon per army.

 

the seals can still be one per vehicle, but buying lots of them would be extremely prohibitive anyways, as long as their costs are correct.

 

i think they're all at least worth testing... maybe we can narrow down the choices later on.

Hmm... not sure about that, as that pretty much puts us back towards having an armory. Unless I want to make an ancillary entry towards the back that's one of those extra boxes and says "One vehicle in the army may take..." kinda like Chronus' entry, I guess...

[harveydent]

wow it's been almost two weeks since the last post! i was going to make a list to play with from the current version, but i honestly don't know if the last round of changes we'd been discussing had been implemented (or if any changes had been for that matter).

[Allerka]

I haven't added the vehicle options yet, otherwise everything's in. Been a bit tied up with school and stuff, I'll see if I can get to it this week.

 

I've done three games so far, two against Daemons (one win, one loss), and one against CSMs (win). The army works pretty well (Combat Squads and Tactics are surprisingly nice), nobody has so far complained about any uber-cheese options or anything, which is nice. Intimidation is surprisingly powerful against Fearless armies, and the guy with the Daemons I've faced twice so far is starting to hate me for it (in a good way). :)

 

That said, I'll try to get a few more games in and switch up the list a bit. There's an Apoc game coming up, I'll try busting out Allerka and the Chosen, see how they perform there.