Devastator Help

[duttydave]

Hello All

 

Apologies if this question has been asked before.

 

I have decided to use Devastators in my army. This is after some bad experiences of having my Predators 'one shotted' and destroyed early in the game.

 

I want to have one squad with 4 Heavy Bolters to deal with infantry. I also want to have another unit capable of taking out heavy vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. Lascannons seem a bit pricey on points. Missile Launchers are cheaper but are only AP3. Maybe a mixture of the two would suffice.

 

How do you guys equip yours? Furthermore, do any of you bulk out the squad with extra marines in case of casualties? or do you just take the Sergeant and 4 Heavy Weapon Marines?

 

Regards and Best Wishes

 

duttydave

[Bannus]

I am not of the "specializing" units school and will not dedicate a Devistator Squad to pure anti-tank duty myself. If I were to field two Devistator Squads, I would give them one dedicated AT weapon, one dedicated AP weapon and one dual purpose weapon (missile launcher) to each squad. The final heavy weapon in these squads will either be another AP weapon or another missile launcher.

[Levett]

Anti Infantry (even vs power armour): 4x Heavy Bolters

 

Anti Tank: Missile Launchers (use Lascannons in tactical squads, as its cheaper)

 

Everything else is a waste of space :D

[vorkung]

2 missile launchers and 2 heavy bolters in each squad. Decent anti-tank and anti-infantry killing ability. Had so much success I got bored with them.

[minigun762]

I always worried that having only 1 Dev squad or completely specializing a particular squad might be a problem.

Example: You take the 4 Heavy Bolter Dev squad, now thats an awesome little group but what happens when a dreadnought or MC comes calling. You're heavy bolters are pretty damn useless at the moment. The same thing can happen if you take lascannons or missile launchers.

So it seems like you either have to have multiple dev squads or a variety of weapons in each dev squad.

[bystrom]

Some general advise is located here under Devastator Squads, which is more of the 'specialized' alignment.

 

If you want a second devastator squad that will take care of heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures, there is really just one weapon that can handle both of these: the lascannon. The plasma cannon can handle monstrous creatures (and heavy infantry) but not heavy vehicles while the missile launcher can handle both heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures (as long as they have a 3+ save) but the lascannon simply does it better. The problem, as you've already noted is the cost, so a mixture of lascannons and missile launchers are [theoretically] fine. I've only used smaller squads with lascannons, so I can't really comment on for example 10-man/8-man squad with 2 lascannons and 2 missile launchers, but it seems to fit what you're looking for.

 

So what can I say; firstly, that you're almost always going to need some extra marines in the squad. Usually that means a 2:1 ratio of marines to heavy weapons. Secondly, I think that a mixture of lascannons and missile launchers will work vs heavy vehicles, and probably alright vs monstrous creatures. But a suggestion, since I'm moving away from the more static marines, is that you don't have to have a full 4 heavy weapons in the squad. You could for example have 2 lascannon and 1 missile launcher or just 2 lascannons and then include other anti-tank weaponry in other squads to avoid sinking that many points into one unit, that could possibly be avoided.

[carnage]

With devestators, you ALWAYS specialise. If you have a squad with two lascannons and two heavy bolters, then when you shoot at a tank, the heavy bolters are wasted, and when you shoot at infantry, the lascannons can only kill one guy each half the time.

 

If you want anti-tank run 3 missile launchers and 1 lascannon, bulked out to 8 men with or without a veteran. the devs always attract a LOT of fire, so a meat shield is always handy. and if theyre an anti-infantry squad, then those bolters will actually help you out!

 

With the three missile launchers, you can krak open tanks (hahaha....), or eat power armour or mega-armour. with the extra lascannon you can make those shots count, making even a land raider easy to take out.

[Mycroft Holmes]

8 or 10 man squads:

you need to be able to take wounds with out removing your important models

Don't usually bother with a Vet. Sergeant. The extra Leadership is good priority tests, but when you're shooting at Large Targets this isn't usually a problem. Plus an 8 is generally good enough for most of the time anyways.

 

 

Don't Take:

Las and Plasma Cannons are way too expensive.

Multi-meltas don't have enough range to really take out vehicles.

Heavy bolters are great for taking out infantry, but worthless for anything with 12+ armor, and only an OK range of 36"

 

Take:

Rockets can take out the heaviest tanks in the game (with a little luck) and the combined fire of 4 rockets makes it excellent against vehicles that need to be stunned/shaken. (rhinos/predators/dreads or their equivalent)

Str8 and AP3 means you can kill MEQ units very well, including Instant Death for many commanders

Ability to use the blast template for shooting tightly packed units with a 5+, or worse, save. Don't expect this to be a major killer, it doesn't work as well as you would hope most of the time.

48" range for hitting things all over the table

 

Mycroft

[minigun762]

With devestators, you ALWAYS specialise. If you have a squad with two lascannons and two heavy bolters, then when you shoot at a tank, the heavy bolters are wasted, and when you shoot at infantry, the lascannons can only kill one guy each half the time.

 

Actually I did the math-hammer on that a while ago. Comparing the 4 Missile Lauchers vs 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters.

For the most part, the 2 squads performed almost the same, with the 2/2 squad doing alot better against AV14 and 2+ saves. I could post up the math again if anyone would like to see.

[Mycroft Holmes]

With devestators, you ALWAYS specialise. If you have a squad with two lascannons and two heavy bolters, then when you shoot at a tank, the heavy bolters are wasted, and when you shoot at infantry, the lascannons can only kill one guy each half the time.

 

Actually I did the math-hammer on that a while ago. Comparing the 4 Missile Lauchers vs 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters.

For the most part, the 2 squads performed almost the same, with the 2/2 squad doing alot better against AV14 and 2+ saves. I could post up the math again if anyone would like to see.

 

I totally confirm the numbers are close against a 14armor target

Probability of 2 lascannons doing at least a glancing hit against 14armor: 39.6%

Probability of 4 rockets doing at least a glancing hit against 14armor: 37.6%

 

But this is why I use rockets.

2 lascannons vs 13armor: 55.6

4 rockets vs 13armor: 63.5

 

2 lascannons vs 12armor: 69.2

4 rockets vs 12armor: 80.3

 

2 lascannons vs 11armor: 80.3

2 hvy bolters vs 11armor: 50.7

combined 90.3

4 rockets vs 11armor: 90.5

 

2 lascannons vs 10armor: 88.8

2 hvy bolters vs 10armor: 77.9

combined 97.6

4 rockets vs 10armor: 96.1

 

 

For my money the rocket is always the better choice against vehicles and while it's not quite as good against 2+ armor saves, I'd rather concentrate fire from Tac squads then use a very expensive devastator squad to kill a couple terminators when they can be taking shots against a tank somewhere.

 

Also, these are the likely hoods of a SINGLE glancing/pen hit. The curve is even more pronounced when you start to look at the probability of doing more glancing/pen hits.

 

 

Mycroft

 

PS. Oh yea. Also remember that the more shots you take the more 'average' the results will typically be. Example: 2 missed shots with 2 las cannons is disastrous, while 2 missed shots out of 4 rockets is less so.

[Bannus]

With devestators, you ALWAYS specialise.

I have never cared for this strategy as it depends on your opponent "cooperating" with your strategy. Devistators depend on remaining static to be effective. If they move, they can't shoot effectively. If my opponent has one squad dedicated to anti-infantry duty and another to anti-tank, then I will send a Predator other tank to kill the anti-infantry unit and send my Assault Marines against the anti-tank unit. In theory, you can set up your fields of fire to overlap for the Devs. The problem is a well set up board will allow for cover to be used over most of it. Consequently, the Devs can easiy be outclassed. This why I make my as universal as possible. They tend to lean more towards anti-infantry (because most armies are not tank-heavy), but are still balanced in their roles.

[Tfcdogbert]

Im personally a fan (or used to, i dont know if you can get em in the new rules) of the four plasma cannon devestators, they rip apart almost any infantry and their template means a hit on the rear or side armour almost allways, they will rip up 2+ saves and monstrous creatures and can also kill IC's in squad with clever template placement.

[Levett]

I guess it depends on your field of play.

 

Personally, I always specialize, and 99% of my lists are written for tournament play. Given that tournaments rarely see a field that crates set lanes of fire, having specialized squads is the way to go. I run a squad of 5 devs, with 3 missile launchers and tank hunters, they constantly earn their points back. If i was to add in a Heavy Bolter, i'd simply be wasting those points.

 

Also, its never worth the points in taking lascannons in a dev squad, as the points are too expensive, simply take them in Tactical Squads.

[Rob the lurker]

and can also kill IC's in squad with clever template placement.

 

How? You can always remove other models from the unit, not just the ones under the Blast - that was in place to stop this from happening. Unless I'm missing something here.....

 

3 missile launchers is enough for me, you can then add the points for tank hunter [well, in the last dex anyway.....] and get cheap lascannons against armour - 2+ saves are uncommon enough to not bother me for long range, chosen with power weapons and Icon of Slaanesh deal with them!

[Stella Cadente]

I always go 4 Missile, that way you can take out most armoured vehicles, and large numbers of infantry, AND its not too heavy on the pts compared to Plasma cannons which fulfill a similar role (except you might blow yourself up too)

[minigun762]

Devistators depend on remaining static to be effective. If they move, they can't shoot effectively. If my opponent has one squad dedicated to anti-infantry duty and another to anti-tank, then I will send a Predator other tank to kill the anti-infantry unit and send my Assault Marines against the anti-tank unit. In theory, you can set up your fields of fire to overlap for the Devs. The problem is a well set up board will allow for cover to be used over most of it. Consequently, the Devs can easiy be outclassed. This why I make my as universal as possible.

 

I'm the same way.

I'm always worried that if you over-specialize a squad, then the opponent will just ignore them and use those units against something weaker. This is especially true when we're talking about a unit that doesn't /can't move around the board and is subject to LOS restrictions.

[Tfcdogbert]

and can also kill IC's in squad with clever template placement.

 

How? You can always remove other models from the unit, not just the ones under the Blast - that was in place to stop this from happening. Unless I'm missing something here.....

 

3 missile launchers is enough for me, you can then add the points for tank hunter [well, in the last dex anyway.....] and get cheap lascannons against armour - 2+ saves are uncommon enough to not bother me for long range, chosen with power weapons and Icon of Slaanesh deal with them!

 

I was under the impression that you had to remove stuff under the template althoguh im highly possible im wrong as my record on remembering rules isnt exactly spotless :cuss.

 

Anyone know for certain?

[Zengar]

It's not under template, it's by wound. Thus you can't use heavy weapons to snipe.

 

It's not under template, it's by wound. Thus you can't use heavy weapons to snipe.

[Tfcdogbert]

Thanks, the reason i thought it was was that i could figure out a way that it made sense after someone told me it was the case, quickly going off topic does the same apply to ordanance?

[bystrom]

[Ordnance is also a template.]

 

On the topic, an all round, cheap but still quite powerful devastator squad is one equipped with 4 missile launchers as said before, since it's able to handle light infantry, 3+ infantry and most vehicles. This goes around having no real satisfying targets to shoot at, partly. But it also means that heavier weaponry to take out the really heavy tanks (like monoliths and land raiders) and 2+ infantry (termies, carnies etc.) falls on other units. So it depends on whether you really want to have a devastator squad that can handle 2+ monstrous creatures and heavy tanks or whether it suffices to have other units handle the really heavy stuff and let your devastators rip into practically everything else.

 

There was a thread about 4 lascannons in dev squads, if you're interested: 4 lascannon Devs/Havocks

[Captain Pugno]

this link may interest you, maybe you have heard it before but it enforces the rule that you pick squads depending on playing style

 

MULTI MELTA TACTICA

[Marshal Nebiros]

I am a big fan of the Multi Melta in specific and diversifying my dev squads in general. I don't pay a lot of attention to the cost of the squad. I try to pay more attention to putting the squad I want on the board. But this discussion brings up a question:

 

Also, its never worth the points in taking lascannons in a dev squad, as the points are too expensive, simply take them in Tactical Squads

 

Why put lascannons in a tac squad? To my way of thinking, the last heavy weapon to put in a tac squad is a lascannon simply because your tac squads are going to be shooting at units which shouldn't require a lascannon. I don't even take heavy weapons in my tac squads (due to mobility issues), but I can understand why you would. It just seems that a few more points is a small price to pay to put a weapon where it can perform at peak. Just my opinion, though.

[bystrom]

The problems with having lascannons in a devastator squad (to me) are:

1. If you put them in one single squad then it's easier to avoid, compared to when put in several squads. This can be avoided by fielding several smaller lascannon squads (or using Combat Squads rule)

2. If they're put in one single squad, then it's easier to kill off compared to several squads with a lot of marines to take as casualties. Again, can be avoided slightly by fielding several devastator squads.

3. A single squad is worth a lot of points, so it is usually worth your opponent trying to kill them anyways.

4. If you use several devastator squads with lascannons, you can't have much other heavy support (depends on what you're fielding) while with tactical squads, you're getting the 2 troops choices filled.

5. Lascannons are usually very good at destroying tanks, you want to fire one after the other, so that you can direct your other lascannons elsewhere after you've dealt with that particular vehicle. This can't be done with a single devastator squad. And when it comes to a 4 lascannon dev squad, it's usually overkill (I'm not sure about this one, it's more what people say).

 

That said, I field a 5-6 man devastator squad with 2 lascannons every now and then supporting my 8-10 man devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. Considering I usually have other units that are higher on the target priority (predator, rhinos fully laden with tactical squads, jump-packing chaplain etc.) these guys rarely get shot. Unfortunately I play against Eldar, so lascannons aren't the most effective choice; missile launchers usually do well enough, so I don't have a lot of reflective experience with them (except that they can shake a falcon, and when combined with 4 missile launchers could potentially destroy one within the time span of 4 turns if they can shoot at it all the time :o).

[Ultio]

For Codex: Space Marines the cost of a Lascannon is +X points. But I think the BA and DA have to have 10 man tac squads to have a heavy weapon. For BA (I don't have the DA codex) that is X points to take the 5 guys and then +X for the Lascannon (a bit more than the C:SM). Or I could take a Dev Squad and have up to 4. Yes in a Dev Squad I am paying a little less than twice as much for the weapon, I can have 4 of them in the squad. Even if I have a 10 man squad.

 

10 Man BA Tac Squad with Lascannon is 210 points. Points per Las: 210 points per.

10 Man BA Dev Squad with 4 Lascannons is 530 points. 132.5 points per.

5 Man BA Dev Squad with 4 Lascannons is 455 points. 113.75 points per.

 

I did read the Multi-Melta Tactica and I am convinced.

 

Given the Space Marines BS score of 4, the odds of dealing a wound with a Multi-Melta (based on target's toughness)

 

With the following Toughness scores, I derived the following.

4 or less: 5/9 (2/3 to hit * 5/6 to wound) with instant death

5 or 6: 5/9

7: 4/9 (2/3 * 2/3)

8: 1/3 (2/3 * 1/2)

9: 2/9 (2/3 * 1/3)

10: 1/9 (2/3 * 1/6)

 

FYI, every 1/th chance is 11.1~1% chance So those are 55.5~5%, 44.4~4%, 33.3%, 22.2%, and 11.1%

 

I personally plan to field 4 Missile Launchers, a 2 Las/2 Plasma, and either 4 Heavy Bolters or 4 Multi-Meltas. After reading the tactica, probably the latter as it will be good at shooting anything.

[Brother_Raphael]

For Codex: Space Marines the cost of a Lascannon is +X points. But I think the BA and DA have to have 10 man tac squads to have a heavy weapon. For BA (I don't have the DA codex) that is X points to take the 5 guys and then +X for the Lascannon (a bit more than the C:SM). Or I could take a Dev Squad and have up to 4. Yes in a Dev Squad I am paying a little less than twice as much for the weapon, I can have 4 of them in the squad. Even if I have a 10 man squad.

 

10 Man BA Tac Squad with Lascannon is 210 points. Points per Las: 210 points per.

10 Man BA Dev Squad with 4 Lascannons is 530 points. 132.5 points per.

5 Man BA Dev Squad with 4 Lascannons is 455 points. 113.75 points per.

 

Also, take it or leave it, but both us Angels of Death can have Combat Squads, which is a pretty awesome deal for Devastators. Many people talk about how fun it is to land a template on a 10-man 530 pt. Squad. It's a lot harder when there's two of them. (Not to mention double the squads, double the coverage...double-mint gum) The other SM will prolly get CS later too, but the Emperor in his infinite wisdom gave them to Team Sweetness first.

 

There's a reason BA and DA are awesome, and it's not just 'cause we make X-Mas colors together...

 

 

p.s. The math above is good, but Officio Assassinorium and moonlighting Eldar players with Mindwar might point out the folly in storing even 114 pts. in a single, one wound model...