Chaos: Pure Evil, or just different

[BigDaddyNurgle]

All in all, we Chaos Space Marines are not evil, merely widely misunderstood. To go back to the Star Wars comments and examples that were made, you can actually look at the Chaos Marines as the Jedi, or the Rebellion. And the Imperium Of Man, with their False Emperor, as the Galactic Empire.

 

They travelled the galaxies conquering planets and bringing entire civilizations into compliance with their lifestyle and ways of thinking. After a while, it was realized that this was the wrong thing to do, and the smart ones broke away from the Empire. Thus, the Rebellion/Jedis/Chaos Space Marines were born.

 

It is true that there are those CSM's out there who are completely mad, even sadistically so, The World Eaters for example. Then there are those who are out for their own means, like Ahriman and Fabius Bile. And then there are those who are out to get vengeance for being ridiculed by those around them, like Mortarion was by the majority of the other Primarchs.

 

I like to think of the CSM's as a melting pot of personalities. A group of warriors where you can find anything and everything that your looking for. A bit of evil, a bit of good, an abundance of pride and ego, and a ton of violence and hate fueled thoughts of vengeance. All In All.....

 

 

Let The Galaxy Burn

[Lady_Canoness]

On the subject of Good vs. Evil in the Imperium, I am tempted to turn to Plato's Republic for an answer. The Imperium seems to adhere to the concept of Order, Justice, and Brotherhood being the basis of "Good".

The Emperor, as those of you who are reading the Horus Heresy series will know (smashing good books they are) the Emperor's mission was to unify the realm of mankind against the ignorance and horrors of the galaxy. I don't believe his quest was one of personal greed, but rather one of illumination of his people. By all accounts, his original purpose (though it has been perverted over the ages) was certainly "good".

 

Thus with "Good" achieved, all else are in comparison to this one "Good".

[BigDaddyNurgle]

I am only a few pages shy of finishing Horus Rising, and already I have an entirely new outlook on the Great Crusade. While the Emperor, and the Imperium Of Man had only the best of intentions, it was chaos and discord that they actually spread through out the galaxies. Anytime you force a civilization of any kind into thinking the way you do, and living the way you live, you force them to hate you. Even if things are great on the surface, deep down, those thoughts and emotions of hatred, and discord are sown and they fester and boil over until suddenly it all explodes. This is pretty much what happened when Horus and the "Traitor Legions" turned on their brethren and assaulted Holy Terra. The greatest example of an Astartes being torn by two sides of the coin is in Garviel Loken. The mere fact that he questions everything, and manages to think for himself, makes his different from the other members of the Mournival, and even his Primarch, Warmaster Horus. It is best scene and noticed after the events in the Whisperheads when he is forced to kill the possessed Jubal.

 

The Emperor, while his intentions were good, was still out on a mission of his own accord. He was out to bring those who did not believe in what he believed, or thought what he thought, around to doing the things he did, and told them to do. He was out to spread a message that stated that religion of any kind, and belief in any higher power, other than him, was false and herectical. When in actuality, he was the true herectic for refusing to face the truth. For refusing to acknowledge the fact that there were, indeed, powers greater than he. The mere fact that The Emperor was raised to the level of Godhood by those who did not turn to the "Ruinous Powers", in and of itself, is hypocritical of everything that the Great Crusade was based upon.

[Kingin]

Yea BigdaddyNurgle is right, although the Emperor is a man like everyone but with a lot of power, when the cusades began, if you are on the Eldar side would you be happy or think the Emperor was doing good, when people of your kind are being killed? I think just because a couple of Chapters/Leigons do bad things, doesn't make everyone bad in that race or the Chaos Space Marines. I feel like the Emperor is a dictator and if you think of saying anything bad you would be killed. Is that really good? Also the freedom each and everyone has is the natural rights, and no one should be able to take that away. Also I hate how people are saying that Chaos gods and the Marines have no human traits, because they do. They might have more Human traits then the Imperium out there. The emotions we have makes us humans and the choices we make makes us humans. Some of the most common emotions Love, hate, happiness, and other emotions made the Chaos gods. Also some times people go to chaos is because of there love, someone might had a family and they died from the Imperials and he might want revenge on them because he loves them, and also would someone be wrong to save there loved one from dieing from a disease by doing anything they could, and I think that some Chaos Space Marines could love, just some of them don't and people think that they all don't love and I say thats just wrong.

 

If anyone here was put into the 40k world and all our rights, hopes, dreams, and beliefs were taken away, I would say most of us would probably would be called Chaos and Heretics. What human has the right to rule other people when he is doing wrongful things like killing innocent people? Are the other races like Tau, and Eldar have right at all? Or does the Emperor think that the Imperium has the right to go on a genocide and kill everyone that is not human. I feel that the Emperor is the real trouble maker here.

[refuse]

On the subject of Good vs. Evil in the Imperium, I am tempted to turn to Plato's Republic for an answer. The Imperium seems to adhere to the concept of Order, Justice, and Brotherhood being the basis of "Good".

The Emperor, as those of you who are reading the Horus Heresy series will know (smashing good books they are) the Emperor's mission was to unify the realm of mankind against the ignorance and horrors of the galaxy. I don't believe his quest was one of personal greed, but rather one of illumination of his people. By all accounts, his original purpose (though it has been perverted over the ages) was certainly "good".

 

Thus with "Good" achieved, all else are in comparison to this one "Good".

 

 

You have to go back to the Shaman.

 

 

Chaos:

As human numbers increased and human civilisation grew away from its natural roots the particular warp energies created by humans began to dominate the warp. Where the energies of nature were harmonious and benign, those of man were oftten disharmonious and dangerous. Power, ambition, greed, lust and a thousand other human feelings took root in the warp and began to grow.

.

.

.

Terrified for the future of their race, all the shamans of Earth gathered together in one place and began teh longest and most important debate in the history of humanity, lasting centuries and leading to the birth of the New Man.

After hundreds of years of debate and research the Shamans came to the conclusion that they were doomed, and that without them the whole race would soon fall prey to the psychic entities it had created in the warp. At the saem time the disruption of the natural rhythm of the warp would result in the inevitable decline of the whole planet. They divined a future when all of creation would be consumed by mankinds's greed and ambition.

Although their power was still strong the shamans realized that they could survive forn only one or two further incarnations. . . . They therefore decided to pool their own energies by reincarnating in a single body. In their thousands they swallowed poison, and in their thousands they died, and their kind was gone from the earth.

Within a year the man later to be known as the Emperor was born.

 

The Emperor was born to save man from his own folly. From his own ambition and greed. Mankind created it's own destruction, the chaos powers.

 

The New Man was aware of how the extreme sides of the human character was feeding the Chaos Powers. Despite his best efforts to promote peace and harmony, the instinctive values of martial honour, ambition, defiance and self-satisfaction could never be eradicated.

 

I think the Shaman, and then the Emperor were meant to save ourselves from ourselves.

[crossfit]

that is exactly the point I was also trying to make CuRoi.

 

It is very difficult to talk about what is evil without having something to compare it. However, it might just be that both "sides" are evil to some degree.

 

Personally, I don't think the emperor was good. While many xenos species are horrible, agressive creatures, there wasn't any discrimination within the empire. Anything not pure blood human, or serving them, is evil and should be exterminated.

 

Sounds a bit like Hitler to me.

[Lady_Canoness]

I think that refuse has hit a good point there in saying that the Emperor's design was to save mankind from itself, and that the salvation of mankind was Good. Of course there will be many who will disagree - there always will be - but the Emperor had the will and the means to make his vision a reality.

 

We must also accept that the earliest date we are talking about is 28 000 years from now, and if a lot can change in just a few thousand years since the birth of Philosophy, you can rest assured that the notions of Good and Evil will be significantly different. For that reason I believe that the argument of the Imperium being 'Evil' because of it's soci-economic structure is not relevant. Don't misunderstand me - I love democracy, and I think the freedoms of my country are pretty friggin great - but remember that until about 300 years ago, the concept of democracy was repulsive (though it has existed since ancient times). Therefore I don't think that we can label the Imperium as the bad guys and the Chaos Marines as Freedom Fighters.

 

Chaos Marines are and aren't human at the same time. They are a falliable as mortals, and are subject to the same emotions (other than fear of course). Their capacity for these emotions, however, greatly exceeds that of mortals. Their actions are almost beyond human understanding - I don't think anyone with your average human mindset could do what they do. To concieve and act out such terrible things is beyond reason and rationality!

 

Thanks to everyone for responding thus-far, especially those of you that present well constructed and heartfelt arguments!

[BigDaddyNurgle]

You must, however, all look at what transpired through out not only the Great Crusade, but the Horus Heresy as well. Lady Cannoness talked about human emotion, and how the CSM's are both human and non-human at the sametime. And their capacity to feel stronger emotions than those who remained loyal and faithful the Emperor. Here in lies the problem, however. You see, it is that feeling of emotions that actually makes them more human than the loyalist legions. By accepting the fact that they are indeed human, and that they are indeed fallible, they became more than just geneseed created by the Emperor. They became more than just Astartes, and automatons who were created and trained to look, walk, talk, think, act and feel just as the Emperor himself did. However, the Emperor was not perfect in his creation of his Primarchs, and their subsequent chapters of Space Marines. There were flaws in the gene codes. Flaws that allowed the Marines to rationalize things differently, and to think for themselves. As I stated before when speaking about Garviel Loken in "Horus Rising", it was this mistake on part of the Emperor himself that ultimately led to the Horus Heresy.

 

You see, after thousands of years of crusading for the Emperor, men like Loken started to question. After the events in the Whisperheads, Loken, as well as the Remembrancers who had travelled to the surface, started to question everything they had been told about the existance of daemons, and gods, and supernatural powers and beings. They came to realize that the Emperor had been lying to them, and hiding a great truth from them all of that time. When you get right down to it, the entire Horus Heresy was based upon those lies. Even the events that took place after the Horus Heresy prove that the Emperor, though dead, had a great power over his loyal subjects. They strapped into a life support chair, and started to worship him as a God. There were even those who worshipped him as a God long before that time. Even though he asked them not too. Basically, what I'm saying is this......

 

People look upon the Chaos Legions as the ultimate evil in the galaxy, and that may be true. Though, they are looked upon that way for the wrong reasons. They are not evil for their beliefs, or for their actions during the Horus Heresy. Because, though they were labled as Herectics, they were merely acting upon their own beliefs, and their own emotions. They were striking out at an Emperor, a man, who had lied to them, and mislead them. A man who had raised himself above all others. A man who claimed to be the salvation of mankind, and that he was the ultimate source of truth and power in the universe. However, as it turned out, this was not the truth. The Emperor was revealed for what he truly was, a man. A mere mortal who clung to his beliefs strongly, and who refused to acknowledge the existance of anything else. It proved his downfall. Just as that same passion and pride has proved to be the reasons why none of the Black Crusades have been successful enough to give Abaddon what he desires, and that is the downfall of Terra. The lesson here is not that one should not fall too deeply into the beliefs of good or evil, right or wrong, or even into the belief of any one religion. No, the lesson is that one should not hold too strongly to his pride and ego, lest they end up the same as the Imperium and the CSM's.

[CuRoi]

I think that refuse has hit a good point there in saying that the Emperor's design was to save mankind from itself, and that the salvation of mankind was Good. Of course there will be many who will disagree - there always will be - but the Emperor had the will and the means to make his vision a reality.

 

Hate and fear, with a sliver of hope. This is how a tyrant inspires his followers to conform to his vision. The Emperor certainly did espouse grand vision the reunification and enlightenment of mankind. Its not the vision I take issue with, its the steamroller way he went about trying to bring his vision to fruition.

 

We must also accept that the earliest date we are talking about is 28 000 years from now, and if a lot can change in just a few thousand years since the birth of Philosophy, you can rest assured that the notions of Good and Evil will be significantly different. For that reason I believe that the argument of the Imperium being 'Evil' because of it's soci-economic structure is not relevant.

 

That premise in mind: could it not also be said that we, here in prehistoric times, all ill-equipped to judge the motivations and actions of a group of genetically engineered superhuman warriors who choose to worship beings of energy residing in another dimension?

 

Ask a group of gamers in 41,001... bet you get a different answer. Right before =][= breaks the door down and carts them all away as heretics.

 

Only point I am trying to make here is that the entirety of our opinions on the subject are invariably based in the here-and-now. No getting around it. So everything is relevant, and so is none of it.

 

Ugh. I'm starting to sound like I am arguing for its own sake. Not my intent. This has been a fantastic thread. Many thanks for being inspired to start it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It seems to me that people are failing to realise the distinction between "Evil" and "Amoral". I'll bring up two quotes to help prove my point.

My point is that there are two different categories of Chaos Marines, the evil and the amoral, the amoral being divided into a sliding scale of grey.

 

The "Evil" Chaos Marines, such as the World Eaters and Emperors Children, are classified like this as they are purely consumed by their own desires. No other thought will enter their heads, apart from what they want, and the easiest way to get that. Nothing will stand in their way, except for the God(s) that they worship, and that is only because the source of their power is that God(s). As they say, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. I don't doubt that some Chaos Marines might not go Rogue from their God(s) once their power is achieved, just look at Be'Lakor for an example (Fantasy, I know, but it still proves a point). It is these Marines that, as with the previous example, will not hesitate to kill/maim/defile a person that is placed in front of them, no matter who that person is, or regardless of any other factor you can care to mention. This type of Chaos Marine is summed up by a quote from Nietzsche, from a book called "Beyond Good And Evil" (very fitting name, don't you think?):

Suppose, finally, we succeeded in explaining our entire instinctive life as the development and ramification of one basic form of the will--namely, of the will to power, as my proposition has it... then one would have gained the right to determine all efficient force univocally as--will to power. The world viewed from inside... it would be "will to power" and nothing else.

For the Evil Chaos Marines, their world has become viewed entirely as this "Will to Power", with others there to help achieve it. They are the true Socio/Psychopaths of the galaxy.

 

The "Amoral" Chaos Marines, on the other hand, are those Chaos Marines that still have a higher goal that guides their methods. This is where Chaos gets really interesting, as this is much more of a sliding scale of grey, none wholly evil, none wholly good. Yes, I did just say that these can be classified to some extent as "good". I'll give two examples of Legions for this, one as an example of the "Dark Grey" (more evil) of the Amoral Chaos, and another as the "Light Grey" (more good).

 

An example of the "Dark Grey" Legions, and I just noticed the coincidence here, is the Word Bearers. These are Chaos Marines that see themselves as the harbingers of a Golden Age of Chaos. To them, the Emperor is an evil being, entirely undeserving of the worship that he receives. Their self-appointed duty is to free the average person of the Imperium from the shackles of their corpse-god, and to enlighten them to the glory that is the Chaos Gods. As such, in their mind, what they are doing is entirely justified, and would seem justified to anyone that knew only the basics of what they are doing. They are "glorious liberators of the downtrodden man".

However, the reason that they worship Chaos is largely selfish, to gain personal power. Those that oppose them are crushed into the earth, or used as sacrifices for their blood-rituals. They are, and I don't want to cause a massive hate-fest here, true religious extremists. While I don't doubt that there are those that are "saved" by the Word Bearers, the majority end up dead, their souls devoured merely to bring favour to a single individual. So while they have their noble intentions, it is for an entirely selfish cause, brought about by horrific means. It should also be noted that these Legions are almost all those that were "pushed" into rebellion, rather than willfully joining.

 

On the other hand, an example of the "Light Grey" Legions, and note I'm not using entirely canon fluff, is the "Puritan" Night Lords. These are the Night Lords who stand true to the original teachings of the Night Haunter. If you want to know more, read Lord of the Night. Anyways, as with the Word Bearers, their is a goal that is being followed, that of the freedom of mankind from being enslaved to the Emperor. The Night Lords found out about the Emperors duplicity, and are seeking to spread that knowledge, that mankind is merely a race of pawns to be thrown away as soon as their usefulness has ended, as had happened with the Night Haunter. As again, they see themselves as bringers of vengeance, of justice, attempting to overthrow a tyrant who, while he may have begun with pure intentions, has become hungry for power, using others to either help him gain more, or maintain his current level of power.

Even so, it is my belief that many of the Chaos Marines fighting for these reasons are fighting for justice, not revenge. The difference being that those that fight for revenge will eventually fall into the "Will to Power" belief, that the injustice done to them far outweighs anything that they can do, and will eventually sink into blood-lust, even though it may be justified in their mind. This makes them even more dangerous that the standard Will to Power marines, as they have a goal to cling to, to give them focus amidst the blood, whereas another would become lost in the depravity. On the other hand, someone who fights for justice acknowledges that there is a limit to what can be done to repay something, or else they will become the "monster" that they sought to destroy. This is shown by the fact that in Lord of the Night, Sahaal admits that the Night Lords were "tame monsters" fighting for the Emperor. Even so, there are times when extreme measures are needed in order to further their goals, as a quote from Apocalypse Now shows:

In a war there are many moments for compassion and tender action. There are many moments for ruthless action - what is often called ruthless - what may in many circumstances be only clarity, seeing clearly what there is to be done and doing it, directly, quickly, awake, looking at it.

They admit that while fighting for a noble goal, there are times when only ignoble means will bring it about, as long as they are only the means to an end, not an end in itself. As such, these means are not truly evil, but only a tool. So they are evil in much the same way a bullet or sword is evil.

To sum up, these "Light Grey" Legions are those that fight for a pure goal, and while methods are used that may be called "Evil" by others, they have realised that these "evil" actions are an unfortunate necessity, as long as they are used to bring about the goal. It is also these Marines that walk a tightrope, for the smallest laxity in purpose can cause them to fit in more with the Will to Power marines, seeing their goal as worth any cost.

 

Hopefully, this has helped to clear up the distinction between what we call "evil", and what is merely "amoral". The thing is, is that there is no such thing as true evil, as evil is merely a point of view. As Lorgar states in Horus Rising, "the difference between Gods and Daemons depends largely on where one is standing at the time". As such, to be truly evil, that being would have to be able to be considered evil by anyone and anything, including itself, and this can never be the case, for the more "evil" one becomes to the wider population, the less "evil" one would become to oneself, a gradual slip into becoming a socio/psychopath. If one does label themselves as evil, then this is mostly either not truly believed by that person, or they are atoning for some past evil, at which point that have given up "true" evil, as it has been renounced. Remember, even the classical image of pure evil, Satan, believes himself to be in the right (as much as he can be described as male, but I'll do it here), that he is not evil, and that he should rule Heaven.

[CuRoi]

...so much good stuff, my eyes bled...

 

From my perspective, Lord_Caerolion wins this post.

 

Marvelously brilliant.

[Lady_Canoness]

Well said Lord_Caerolion, that was quite the post.

 

I would like, if I may, to slightly alter the focus of this discussion. Up until now we have largely been dealing with the relations of the Chaos Marines to the Imperium, and I am glad to see that so many have well constructed arguments upon which the focus. Now, however, I would like to bring up the topic of how they relate to one another.

Is the brotherly love, mutual respect and honour still relevant when discussing the Traitor Legions? Or they tolerate the presence of their brothers simply because it may prove advantageous to themselves? Or is it more likely that they have no singular opinion on the matter?

 

We know that Chaos Marines are far more adept to working alone or in small numbers compared to their imperial counter-parts, but we also know that remained in their respective companies for centuries on end.

 

What is it that would most likely drive a Chaos Marine on the individual level to do what he does? Is he bound by loyalty? Greed? Vengance? Or simply the Iron Fist of his master?

 

All questions for consideration...

[Lord_Caerolion]

Thanks for the comments, it's for precisely these reasons that I play Chaos, they really open up so many moral questions, on exactly why your army fights, when its such a clear-cut reason with every other army, really.

 

Now, I'll answer two questions in this post, one that I forgot to address in my last post, in what the true nature of the Chaos Gods are, and whether they are evil themselves, or whether they are merely "unguided", as others have suggested. The other question is that just raised by Lady_Canoness, on why the Chaos Marines fight in the position they are in, and why they fight in organised bodies, rather than individuals. I'll address the latter question first, as it will be the shorter of the two.

 

QUESTION 1

That of "why do Chaos Marines fight in Warbands, when they are portrayed so often as selfish, and not caring at all for others".

 

This question, as with my last post, and in my opinion, depends largely on which of the classifications the Marine belongs to. Those of the Will to Power variety, fight alongside each other mainly because of survival instinct, in my opinion, as well as a vague memory that those guys over there are the ones I fight with. It could also have to do with the old phrase, "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer".

 

A warband of Will to Power marines can be thought of as a powerful leader, who has managed to fight his way to supremacy, and a group of underlings, each rivals, who follow him. The Leader has managed to fight his way into the position where he can execute his Will to Power over others, and those under him are kept for two reasons, to keep him safe from rival Champions, acting as a meatshield and personal army, and also, if need be, to act as a ready supply of sacrifices, although this last option is risky, as it can prompt a coup. Those under him act mainly in the manner described in the codex, putting up with the demands of their overlord, mainly because they realise that by following him, and bringing him power, they will receive power themselves. As such, they can bide their time, plotting until they can claim such power for themselves, and could even act as a squad to stage such a coup, only to fall amongst themselves after the power is gained, or the squadmates become the Chosen of the new Champion, their greed sated by their new high standing, albeit lesser than what their comrade achieved. It would only be a matter of time before one amongst these Chosen finds his ambition stoked once more, and yet another coup is staged, setting the cycle going once more.

 

Amongst the "Dark Grey" Marines, each marine will probably feel contented with the position they hold, happy that they have a place amongst the designs of their lord. Of course, any sign of weakness by the Lord they follow, and underlings could begin to feel that they could serve their purpose more efficiently, and a potential Champion would gather their squad around them, swaying them with promises of power, and a coup would be held. All-in-all, these Warbands function a lot like Will to Power warbands, although they are much more stable, as their goals are more important than personal ambition.

 

The "Light Grey" Marines, on the other hand, are much more stable, functioning almost like a standard Chapter, but mostly on a smaller scale, due to lack of numbers. These will often be remnants of the old Legions or Renegade Chapters, often organised as a Company, rather than as the standard, rag-tag warband. The Company, or equivalent, is led by its old Captain, etc. If he dies, he is replaced by his second-in-command, or from amongst the Chosen, in a series of duels. The Company is incredibly stable, squads mainly staying the same since they went traitor, as their sense of purpose keeps any sense of ambition in check. The duty to the goal over-rides any sense of ambition. As such, a Light Grey warband, etc, will largely be incredibly similiar to a Loyalist Company, or in the case of a particularly large warband, a Chapter.

 

QUESTION 2

That of "Are the Chaos Gods truly evil, or are they merely entities that never experienced any controlling limit?"

 

To start with, I'll state plain and simple that the Chaos Gods are neither of these. To help explain this, we should at first define the Chaos Gods. Put simply, the Chaos Gods are collections of emotion within the Warp, the most basic of drives, Rage, Despair, Hope, and Pleasure. As such, these beings are formed of all emotions that can be classified as such as well. Khorne is not only Rage, he is also the Warrior Spirit, Martial Honour, as well as Animal Rage, Vengeance, and Bloodlust. Slaanesh is both the pleasure of knowing a lover, but also the sadomasochist torturing a puppy. The Chaos Gods are not only extremes, as they are so often (misguidedly) thought to be, they are everything that involves that concept, they are the concept, as well as the being. Now, this has shown that the beings themselves are not in themselves evil, but we are shown that those that worship such beings are largely classified as evil. We must ask ourselves, where does this malevolence come from? It certainly doesn't come from the God, so what is this mystery source?

To understand this properly, let me explain the basics of what is called Jung's Shadow Theory. Shadow Theory explains that every person has a Shadow, to balance their normal "light" side, what we show to the public. This dark side is uncaring of others, it is selfish, it is the side of us that follows the above-mentioned Will to Power. Now, as much as we may wish, this Shadow cannot be removed, it is an integral part of ourselves. As such, there are three things a person can do with their Shadow. I'll explain the examples later, for now I'll outline the theory.

On one hand, we can ignore our Shadow, but this is incredibly bad. We refuse to admit that we are capable of killing, of beat, of selfishness. In our mind, we become the epitome of good. As such, these "evil" urges get given an external source, they come from a devil not ourselves. Any who do such deeds are "inhuman", and are utterly evil. However, they can become biased, unable to see that in their hatred of such people, they are themselves submitting to their Shadow, their Shadow poisoning them, corrupting their views. This is what has happened with the Imperium.

We could, on the other hand, give in to our Shadow utterly. As again, this is bad. You fully submit yourself to your darkest drives, and the "light" side of you is drowned. As again, the Will to Power overcomes all other feelings, and you become self-obsessed, and, for want of a better word, "evil". This is what happens with Chaos worshippers.

Lastly, you can admit that the Shadow is a part of you, but not your entirety. In such a state, you admit that while you are a law-abiding citizen, you have within you the potential to become a murderer, a beater, capable of any evil. While you may not do it, the potential is there. Here, you realise that the murderer that killed that family is not to be reviled and hated, for not only is that person just someone who was not strong enough to resist the temptations of their Shadow, and should be pitied, but that person could have been you. It is this state that is hardest to reach, because many people don't have the ability to admit these things. This state was achieved by the Eldar.

 

Now, for what my examples mean, you need to understand that Chaos is merely a racial version of the Shadow Theory, the Macrocosm for the Microcosm of our minds Shadow.

The Eldar, as a race, were able to realise the darkness within their souls, but also realise that that same darkness did not have to over-power them. As such, their collective psyche was able to influence the Warp, and their gods took on a much more benign aspect, while still representing the drives that fuel the current Chaos Gods. Nurgle was at that time Morai-Heg, who was not only a Goddess of Death, but also represented the wisdom that age brings, and the naturalness of death, that it wasn't something to be feared. Tzeentch was at that time Lileath, who also represented dreams, the beauty of the new. Khaine, who became Khorne, represented not only hatred, but also the duty of the warrior, and honourable combat. When Slaanesh was born, these deities did not 'die' per se, nor were they consumed by Slaanesh. That is merely allegory for the fact that there were no longer enough Eldar to keep the Human Gods of Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch from dominating those powers. Khaine only managed to stay "alive" as the Eldar were now consumed, as much as they could be, with feelings of hatred for the beings usurping their galaxy, ruining their maiden worlds, and at themselves for allowing such a thing to come to pass.

Humanity, on the other hand, has never been able to see Rage, Despair and Change as truly part of ourselves. We have never been able to admit that we are all capable of murder, of apathy, that we could relish in causing pain to others. As such, the Gods we subconsciously created were made to be inhuman, to be alien from ourselves. For if no person should be capable of murder, or sink into self-hatred, how could a god that represented that same thing be human as well? Again, subconsciously, we shaped our gods into enemies, that stood for what we hate. While they also stand for things we see as beneficial, all up we refused to humanize them.

So with the Shadow Theory, when a cultist worships Chaos, they also give themselves over entirely to their Shadow, because we have made the Chaos Gods our Shadows in our minds, even though in reality they can be beneficial. This is the source of the malevolence of Chaos worshippers. It is not the Gods that hate us, it is the humans that follow them, indeed all humans, interpreting them that way.

 

I haven't really explained this concept as well as I would have liked, but I hope you get my point.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

"Good. . .bad. . ."*shrugs* "I'm the guy with the gun." :P

[Brother_Soulrot]

The other way of looking at 40K is in a purely Darwinian way - that each of the different races is equally justified in the methods it uses, as the ultimate aim is survival. Therefore 'good' is anything which aids that goal, and 'evil' is anything which benefits your enemies...

[cryptomancer]

To add a perspective, I will raise the question of whether CSMs feel justified. Well? Do they?

 

Justification is so very human. It is an extension of our moral perception. To have a concept of justice, one must recognise the acts/thoughts that need to be justified as being in some way objectionable (i.e. amoral). Justice stems from the decision that the objectionable act is in some way right, that the positives outweigh the negatives. Consider (small scale), Capital Punishment (he said, opening a can of worms, in a pit of snakes, which was on fire). This is a societal decision that killing sombody (i.e. the offender) is preferable to letting them live (whether incarcerated, released, lobotomised, whatever). If you want a larger scale, consider war. War is a societal decision that mass murder (which is normally abhorrent to most societies) is acceptable, whether to prevent greater murder, economic exploitation, enslavement, etc.

 

So, my question remains; do Chaos Space Marines feel justified in their actions? If they do, it points to their minds working in a similar manner to our own thought processes. They see their actions as horrific, but rationalize them based upon context of the time, place, opposition, whatever. I believe Abaddon is a figure influenced this way. He feels betrayed by the Imperium, seeks revenge for past wrongs. He sees his strugle as justified. Ahriman (see, "Rubric of") falls into this category. He sees great acts of destruction as "necessary evils" (a term that really encapsulates what I'm trying to say about justice) if the outcome is in keeping with his goals. The early (Hours Heresy-era) Word Bearers could be said to be a symptom of this thinking as well: corrupting the Legions, inciting a vast civil war, and killing the Emperor (i.e. the "bad" things) are justified since a) the Emperor rejected them as worshipers, and so he must be a false God, :D Chaos is innevitable anyway, c) all the usual spiel. Justification doesn't have to make sense, either. For example, the Chaos Lord who eats the hearts of a thousand baby girls to become an immortal Daemon Prince could "justify" it by saying: "Hey, I'd rather eat the baby hearts than die." If he knows he's doing wrong, has some sense of right and wrong, he's still operating on a very human scale of good/evil.

 

Conversely, if Chaos Space Marines do not feel justified, it can mean several things...

1) They feel the pull of morality, and don't care about justification. These revel in their own evil and corruption. Typhon personifies this fairly well, I think. He's perfectly aware of the corruption he spreads, and doesn't need a justification. There is none. There is only death and sickness and destruction.

2) They have no concept of morality at all, becuase it is totally alien to them (numbed, removed, detached, posessed...). Fabius & Khârn seem good examples. There is no morality to them. For Fabius, there are only goals. Methods do not need to be justified, because everything is relative (I call this the Academia Complex ;) ) and all will view his work in a different way. Khârn is barely in touch with reality, let alone complex concepts of right and wrong. There is only blood. That is the constant in his life, which he perpetuates. He is violent for the sake of violence. That is what he is.

3) They see all they do as good. If they do not see anything they do as evil, then they do not violate any moral code when they perform those acts. Lucius might fill this archetype. He fights because it is the greatest pleasure in his life. He violates and desecrates because it feels right. He betrays and posesses because it is right and good to him. Cherubael is another good example of this (though not a Marine). Everything he can do freely is for himself, for his ideal of absolute freedom.

 

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that Chaos Space Marines (and cultists, and Daemons, and so on) either have a perception of morality that we can understand (and so could be said to be truly "Evil", or possibly just misguided), or simply operate with a moral compass we would not even recognise, and so must be somthing altogether different, somthing alien.

 

Thoughts?

[Lady_Canoness]

hmmmm.... a very good question, to which there is no simple answer.

 

I would assume that most Chaos Marines do not believe that they need to justify their answers to anyone, whether or not they need to justify it to themselves is another thing to consider.

 

During the time of the Heresy I would argue that the Traitor Marines would justify there actions by numerous injustices, dishonours, and so-forth derected against their Legion. As we saw in False Gods (**SPOILER ALERT!! SPOILER ALERT!!**) Horus himself felt as if he was being displaced by the Imperial bureaucracy, and all that he had fought for would be handed over to be ruled by those who did not deserve it. Abaddon felt as if the Emperor had deserted them in the midst of the mess of the crusade to pursue his own agenda, leaving them to fight his war. (**SPOILER ALERT TERMINATED**)

 

As they say "the road to damnation is paved with good intentions"

 

In the 41st millenium however, I believe that Chaos Marines are beyond morallity, and that any regrets they may have felt have been washed away by centuries of brutality and war with no one but themselves for company.

Spend 10 000 years with a bunch of murderous, spiteful, and hate-driven brutes and I don't think you'll walk out of the Eye of Terror and hug the first puppy you find...

[cryptomancer]

Unless they hug it to death!!! :)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

hmmmm.... a very good question, to which there is no simple answer.

 

I would assume that most Chaos Marines do not believe that they need to justify their answers to anyone, whether or not they need to justify it to themselves is another thing to consider.

 

In the 41st millenium however, I believe that Chaos Marines are beyond morallity, and that any regrets they may have felt have been washed away by centuries of brutality and war with no one but themselves for company.

 

Good points. Shades of Nietzsche in there, going from would-be ubermensch to full-blown nihilists. One must also consider that by the end of it, Horus had most of the Traitor Legions believing that they were the natural next step in evolution and successors to homo sapiens, so your point about them not having to justify their actions seems spot-on. Remember what happened when Horus was wounded and the Luna Wolves killed all those civilians? All the hue and cry about "punishing" the Astartes for their actions and the subsequent brushing off of the incident? They had already reached the point where they felt no need to justify or apologize for their actions to any "lesser" human, any more than they would justify themselves to their pets.

[Roultox]

(I vote to have this thread stickied)

 

 

 

Well I can add two things to this very high driven topic.

 

First, they're Marines. We have to keep in mind they kill and always kill. They're soldiers, and to that point earlier of quoting a marine killing, what is the difference to him who he kills. As to my signature, it also has a part to play in this topic. I found that the middle ground answer, is that when we stop acting human or 'Humane' is the day we stop being human. So generally aliens can be human, or a artificial intelligence can be human, and that it does not directly relate to flesh and bone. Marines are marines, so long as they exist, they will find a goal and shoot to obtain it. They're all monsters, and will eventually be exterminated because of what they are. As long as we keep that in mind we're not talking about humans in any sense, more like we're talking about machines built for war. Give them an enhancement or a driving goal to their actions they will become subject to it. (A repeat of some previous points in a different sense)

 

Secondly, evil is in the eye of the beholder, explained in many ways so far. One mentioned to survival, another for ultimate goals, and several others share that there is no good and evil. Evil only exists because there are people who can view things as evil. Is it evil that say, we were created only to die of old age or worse? (IF it is to say that we were created)

 

 

We also have to look at each gathering of chaos separately. Who is to say they are all cruel and unjust? They are what the fans make them. My take on all of chaos is easy. Its a fun concept, and they can easily fill any role you want them to play. Good guys, bad guys, inbetween. Evil that happens to destroy a tyranid invasion to test a new weapon, or good guy chaos that kills thousands of defenseless tau citizens. I like them because they can be anything, and that there is no true definition of evil. Just what is considered moral and immoral to the people at that day and age. (Example, females couldnt vote in the USA a hundred years ago, now they can) Things change as people change. Chaos is a fun example of that.

[Brother_Soulrot]

We also have to look at each gathering of chaos separately. Who is to say they are all cruel and unjust? They are what the fans make them. My take on all of chaos is easy. Its a fun concept, and they can easily fill any role you want them to play. Good guys, bad guys, inbetween.

This is true, but we have to bear in mind that the first dozen pages of the CSM Codex make it very clear that they are predominantly evil and atavistic; their main aim is the destruction of the human race (whereas the Loyal Space Marines' goal is to ensure that humanity survives). There aren't any 'good' CSMs, just a very few who, in their mind's eye, believe they are still fighting for a greater good rather than a quest for power and vengeance. Maybe they were but again, the Codex clearly lets us know in no uncertain terms that they've become the pawns of the Chaos Gods.

 

It's natural in debates like this to lean towards a kind of moral equivalence, where the bad guys' actions become slightly less 'evil' for whatever reason and the good guys' motives seem less justified. The key point to bear in mind is that although the Space Marines and Chaos Marines aren't always so very different, one faction is (ostensibly at least) fighting to protect those weaker than themselves, whilst the other is striving towards the complete opposite.

[cryptomancer]

What if we start with a basic construct of what "Evil" means in this context? For example:

 

Causing pain to other living things to give one's self a sense of pleasure is the basis of every Evil.

 

If we build from there (if you're a math buff, think of it like a set of restrictions on the equation), we can decide if the actions of a particular Chaos faction are Evil, or just misguided, or totally justified, or whatever.

 

Maybe we can focus a bit more:

 

Placing the needs of the self above the needs of the many is Evil.

 

Very Tau in perspective :) , but a valid starting point. If we decide where to base our relativism, we can come up with a working model of whether or not a given Chaos cultist/marine/daemon/god is Evil, how Evil they are, and (most importantly) how we're rating them.

[Lady_Canoness]

I agree with cryptomancer in that we have to focus on 1 definition by which we can describe evil (a monumental task if I have ever seen one)

 

However I do not think that "Placing the needs of the self above the needs of the many is Evil." is the definition that should be used (if that were true almost all of us would be 'evil')

 

I think that putting yourself before others is neutral/indifferent. Going out of your way to help others without thought to one's own safety could be considered good. Going out of one's way to inflict harm on others for your own selfish reasons can be considered evil.

 

Evil is a means, thus there must be a goal (usually one of power, or glory).

[Lord_Caerolion]

I have to disagree with you, Brother_Soulrot. Very few Chaos Marines seek to wipe out humanity, for if they did so their God would be severely weakened. Most Chaos Marines, in their eyes, seek to liberate the human race from the corrupt and evil Emperor, not to wipe them all out.

As for a definition of "Evil", thats going to be really, really difficult to do. That is a question that philosophers have struggled with throughout the ages. In other words, lets go for it!

[Roultox]

Thus is linked the never ending chain link circle.

 

At this point I think it would be hard to add anything new, but you guys keep surprising me so I'll keep checking back. Never thought other fellas saw chaos as I did, but this is cool, and a good reference to point to when someone asks me what is chaos.

 

Here is my take on 'Evil'.

 

There is always one constant when it comes to all civilisations. The right and wrong way, or correct and incorrect way. Its wrong to use a phillips screw driver for a flathead screwdriver's job. On a larger scale, it is incorrect to use a gun to kill a small bug, where it is correct to kill a larger creature. The right and wrong are severely linked to correct and incorrect things. When it becomes moral, the moral 'laws' of one's mind set comes into play, thus the argument over personal opinion versus the natural way of things.

 

So here is my middle ground (Note I said *my*, not everyones, I know better!). What is incorrect is to go against the greater scheme of things that are for our best interests. In this column, everyone is both evil and good to some degree. How much so falls down to each individual but as many gray areas there are in this kind of mind set, there are clear definitions of black and white. For example, killing someone for no good reason is not constructive in any way. Killing a person to conserve food, and to be merciful in a dire situation is correct, no matter the morals and emotions involved, the logical way is the best way. Applying this logic style to most things may make it simple but just like the rulebook there are many conflicting situations to this side.

 

So ultimately, applying this method of right and wrong, not based on personal beliefs, experiences and emotion, rather a logical almost 'robotic' sort of conclusion here is how I apply it in the 41st mil. The eldar are altruistic to their own kind, and horribly ignorant of any other species well being. In a respect they are looking out for their own, and all that could be born and taken care of, while any "required good deeds" they do are just a bonus. While a seemingly honorable pirate captain only stealing from orks and marauders/other pirates could be seen as a good guy, but he kills many if not everyone, leaving no survivors in his wake. He is performing evil deeds to stop what another faction could do to who he considers a distant target he must protect. He blindly protects others without knowing the outcome, performing ultimately evil deeds and pillaging as his means.

 

Then it falls deeper, the intent of a person and their actions. If the said pirate captain enjoys the pillage and slaughter, using the excuse "They're just as bad as us" then he would be evil in all means, no gray area. But, if he, perhaps remorseful of his own past deeds attacking other pirates, perhaps trying to allow convoys of weapons and ammo help fend off a hive world using the means to obtain power to protect them as being a pirate. He would definately without a doubt fall into the 'good' category. Note I dont use black or white to describe good or bad, as I've been reamed in the past when people took it as a racial comment. Just to merely describe there are two opposite sides. (As a warning too for anyone who didnt think of it as well)

 

So first comes the good intent, and then the good deed, and then the end results. If it went bad and they failed, then the ends didnt justify the means. Even though it was probably not the fault of the do-er of the deeds, that person fully by terms of logic falls under the bad side. So Eldar are perhaps the only ones possible that can perform ultimate good without fail. Its just they are too concerned about their own kind to do so, or they dont give a ****. They have the means, just not the intent, not that they have to go out of their way, in many cases it wouldnt hurt them if they hinted or pointed the way to a better future by using their gift to warn others. In that way, they are ultimately evil, because they have the means, they allow, perhaps even force things to happen the bad way. (I hate eldar for this reason =p)

 

So with many bland spots we'll have to agree to disagree and (for the second time today) pull out the saying: The end result is as different as Apples and oranges in a debate "whats a round fruit".