Chaos: Pure Evil, or just different

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem with your argument, Roultox, is that you are assuming that there is a "universally correct" way to do something. One example you gave was that a person who killed someone to conserve food, or in "a dire situation", is the "right" thing to do. This argument is obviously flawed, just have a look at the massive debates raging over whether euthanasia is morally right. So, while it may seem to you, at least, that killing someone in that situation is the "good" thing to do, others could hold the sanctity of life in much higher esteem, and think that killing someone to preserve food, or even put them out of pain, is a monstrous thing to even consider.

This is the biggest problem with defining evil as, as I said in my first post here, for something to be truly evil, it has to be considered evil by everyone, even those involved. If it is seen as "right" by even one person, there is obviously a (even miniscule) part of that act that can be seen as good. Think of any war, any genocide ever committed, any at all. I can guarantee to you that, as monstrous as we picture those acts to be now, the people that committed them thought that they were the absolute right thing to do. The dropping of the Atom Bomb, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the 9/11 Bombings, each were carried out by people that believed that if that act wasn't carried out, it would be for the worst.

 

Yes, I know I've probably just opened the biggest can of worms the universe has ever seen. No, I don't intend to start a massive debate over those things. Also, I definately do not mean to show the Holocaust or 9/11 as a good thing, or mean to imply that the victims deserved their fate. Far from it. I condone such activities, and anyone who promotes such activities. If anyone does feel offended by my usage of those examples, please PM me, I'll gladly apologise for any offense dealt. Seriously, I don't want to think I've offended anyone. If anyone really wants me to, I'll even take the offending reference out.

I merely wish to view this topic completely free of bias, or as close to that as it can be.

But this is what I mean, that there can be no actual, universal, evil. You may think that this is a cop-out answer, but I'll explain my rationale.

 

We all admit that people can have different forms of view. What is right for one person might not be right for another. As I gave as an example in my reply to Roultox, euthanasia is a good example. This issue has caused a raging debate, each side labelling the other as inhumane. There are valid points to both sides. (As above, I have no intention to cause a debate on the arguments behind both sides here. There are PMs for that.) One side allows for human beings to be killed when there is a possibility that they could recover, the other keeps them alive, no matter the pain they may be experiencing. Both sides could, in their view, have the right to label the other as "evil". Of course, each side views itself as "right", and that their answer is the only one a normal, kind, caring person could even be able to consider, and that to do otherwise is morally wrong. So, with "Right" and "Wrong" shown to be a completely relative concept, let us move on to the next step, "Good" and "Evil".

 

Even "Good", that all-so-often used word, cannot be properly explained as for what is truly good. Lets take for example here, the common, if not ultimate, image of "good", the Super-Hero. Now even here, where you think that it would be so easy to get a universal definition, we cannot. Even superheros, the ultimate good guys, are so varied that we cannot come up with a universal stereotype. The one thing that is common to all of them is that they "fight the bad guys." Of course, what do you do when fighting the bad guys? How far is too far? Where is that line between when you're just fighting the bad guys, and when you become one yourself? Is killing going too far, and only something an evil person would do?

Superheros such as Superman, Spiderman, the Fantastic Four, and Green Lantern would never kill an enemy, even if they had to. Even with those listed, there are many more to whom killing isn't seen as evil, such as Batman, the Punisher, Wolverine and Ghost Rider. To them, killing is seen as an unfortunate necessity when dealing with the ever-ambigous "evil", even though doing so would be considered unthinkable by other superheros. Even within the ranks of these epitome's of good, we find attributes that some would describe as "evil", no matter how necessary the act may have been at the time.

Seeing as how we are finding it hard to find an embodiment of "universal good", which a superhero is supposed to embody, how can we even begin to try to find a "universal evil", since the most common explanation for what evil is, is the opposite of good.

 

Even so, a "universal evil" must be relatively easy to find, you might think, we already have an example of a universal evil, Satan. And that's where you're wrong. Even Satan himself, the being so often described as evil incarnate, is not evil in the eyes of the fallen angels, and in his own opinion. Don't believe me? Just go read Paradise Lost, by Milton. And with this icon of evil taken away from us, the only things left to us to show ultimate evil are supervillains. With these though, they are so utterly varied, and so often have completely opposing goals and ambitions, I'm not even going to touch those, as there is once more no common element to show a universal evil. Some fight for their own personal benefit, so the costs involved (for others) are seen as inconsequential. Others fight for a better world, in their eyes. Once again, justified to them, and obviously to some others as well.

And even in those other supervillains, such as Hannibal Lecter, and the Joker, they again cannot be an example of universal evil, as their insanity means that they either have no choice acting in that way, or cannot see why they shouldn't act in that way. As such, the choice to be "evil" was not made by them consciously, and to be truly evil, it must be a conscious choice to act in that way, knowingly turning away from the proper path.

 

As this hopefully shows, it is impossible for someone to be 'truly' evil, or for such a thing to exist. For if something is to be truly evil, it has to have made a conscious decision to turn from what is right, not have the choice forced upon them by circumstance or insanity. And it must be something that is unjustified to others, and that is the easy part. However, it must be seen as unjustifiable to all others, including ones-self. This is where it becomes impossible. For obviously if it can be justified to others, or ones-self, there either exists some small amount of "good" in that deed, if viewed from a particular perspective, or the individual is insane, at which point it isn't truly their own choice, but a choice made as a result of their condition.

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly, I too vouch for this topic to be Stickied! Come on, Mods!

[Brother_Soulrot]

I have to disagree with you, Brother_Soulrot. Very few Chaos Marines seek to wipe out humanity, for if they did so their God would be severely weakened. Most Chaos Marines, in their eyes, seek to liberate the human race from the corrupt and evil Emperor, not to wipe them all out.

I don't think it would actually occur to them not to diminish their God's power by keeping humans alive, as the examples in Dark Apostle and Storm of Iron show, even the most devoted human soldiers fighting for the Chaos Marines generally get treated with contempt (one of the Word Bearers kills a handful of devoted cultists simply for looking at him in the first novel!) And in a later sequence in Storm of Iron, Forrix ponders why his human soldiers are assisting in the destruction of their own race (a pretty much exact quote from the book).

 

There is the exception of Honsou who has a paragraph from his point of view in which he believes Chaos is the only way that humanity can survive against orks, tyranids etc, but then in the following novel he descends into the same nihilism as the others, sacrificing plenty of his own human soldiers and Iron Warriors without any regret. Hatred of the Imperium is more the motivation for CSMs than 'liberation', as they would probably consider humanity liberated if it was wiped out apart from CSMs and a handful of cultists. The cultists probably wouldn't last that long either, they would get squashed for being weak or sacrificed to the Gods. The remaining CSMs would either become Daemons, Spawn or die in the battles against whichever alien species becomes dominant in humanity's absence (and becomes the main target for Chaos) :P

[Lady_Canoness]

I, Lady_Canoness, would also like to have this topic stickied (not because I started it, but because I believe that there is much to be said on this topic.)

 

Lord_Caerolion is right; defining evil itself may be too difficult a task and will never give a satisfactory answer.

 

Thus I would suggest that we creat, for the purpose of this argument, a good and an evil, however we should substitute them for Light and Dark so that we might not be led astray by the grandeur of the words themselves.

 

As we have concluded, Light and Dark are but a means through which an end is achieved and that the end in itself cannot be wholly Light or Dark. For example: Galactic Domination in and of itself is not Light or Dark, only the means through which it is achieved and maintained is Light or Dark. So what means/actions can be attributed as either Light or Dark?

 

For the purpose of argument I will now attempt to attribute certain actions to either Light or Dark.

 

Light:

-Upholding Justice at ANY cost, so long as the cost does not make the act of upholding justice injust.

-Being faithful to your contracts.

-Charity

-Respectful of others

-Generous

-Empathy

 

Of course that is but scratching the surface of Light/Good, but if we can build an idea of what actions we precieve as good, we can then reverse them into what actions must be precieved as evil (since the only true definition of evil is the opposite of good).

 

btw, I am reading Paradise Lost.

[Lord_Caerolion]

This new idea of substituting Light/Dark for Good/Evil might help us out a lot. Good thinking. The problem is though, that to define Good/Evil, we must also include the intentions, and that is a much harder thing to do than to categorise the acts themselves.

 

Also, good work on reading Paradise Lost, if you like that try the Divine Comedy. Along similiar lines, as it deals with Hell, Purgatory and Heaven, although from a humans point of view, rather than an abstract, impersonal narrator-being.

[Maddog176]

Well I figured I might just add my pathetic $0.02. Now the way I really see it is neither the imperialum nor chaos is good/evil but rather Lawful/Chaotic. If anyone has played or read D&D, and considering most of us are "nerds" I think most of us have. In it, as someone has mentioned, they divide in its simplest forms to :

 

Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Chaotic Good

Lawful Neutral, Neutral, Chaotic Neutral

Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil

 

Now with that in mind I feel that the Imperials are all of the Lawful column and Chaos is all of the Chaotic Column with the odd one from each falling in the middle. I feel that if you look at it this way it makes it rather easy to understand more what each of the 2 opposing forces are, it isn't really a battle of good vs evil but more of Lawful vs Chaotic. I feel if you wanted a good vs evil in 40k you can look at Eldar vs Dark Eldar, or the Imperialum vs Nids.

 

So basically both the Imperialum and Chaos have good/evil people in its ranks so thats not what the key difference/conflict is, but rather one is Lawful vs Chaotic. Mind you this is in the simplest form I feel

 

Btw for those of you who haven't read how D&D stands and what each of the categories mean properly I can quote what each stands for when I get home and have the D&D book on hand.

 

Maddog out.

[Lord Humongous]

I feel if you wanted a good vs evil in 40k you can look at Eldar vs Dark Eldar, or the Imperialum vs Nids.

 

Are you saying the Nids are evil and the Imperium is not? Sure, they consume everything that isn't tyranid (with the possible exception of necrons) but the imperium does essentially the same thing (elimnating all xenos within its borders). In terms of treatment of members of its own culture, the tyranids may in fact be more charitable than the imperium is, if only because each nid is potentially a part of one mind, and thus abuse of them would effectively be self harm for the hive mind.

 

They tyranid race is just a beast seeking food. In you D&D analogy, beasts (even powerful ones that hunt man for food) are (or should be) considered plain neutral, neither good nor evil, lawful nor chaotic.

[Maddog176]

Yeah you are right Lord Humongous, I was just trying to look for a evil to humanity and nids popped into my head first, but really there isn't and can't be a evil against them as they are evil and good at the same time. Really when I think about it the Imperialum vs Imperialum is the good vs evil, from the Imperial point of view, at least I think thats what it would be. Because as it stands the imperialum isn't really too much bothered in the "good" or "evil" just that there is order and law, over disorder, chaos and freedom.

[Lady_Canoness]

I think that in our heart of hearts we all think that Chaos is blatantly evil. However, as I have said we cannot attempt to paint either the Imperium or Chaos as good or evil - it simply is too large a task.

 

What I have suggested is that we have Light and Dark to replace them. I think that we should firstly try and attribute actions and intents as 'Light', because unlike what is evil (or Dark) it is easier for us to agree on what actions might be considered good (see previous posts for examles). Then we simply invert the Light to get a better picture of the Dark. From there we could see what type of action/intent/mean best suits our subjects - in this case the Imperium and Chaos - then we can proceed with our investigation as to whether the forces of Chaos are truly evil.

[Brother_Soulrot]

I think that in our heart of hearts we all think that Chaos is blatantly evil. However, as I have said we cannot attempt to paint either the Imperium or Chaos as good or evil - it simply is too large a task.

 

What I have suggested is that we have Light and Dark to replace them. I think that we should firstly try and attribute actions and intents as 'Light', because unlike what is evil (or Dark) it is easier for us to agree on what actions might be considered good (see previous posts for examles). Then we simply invert the Light to get a better picture of the Dark. From there we could see what type of action/intent/mean best suits our subjects - in this case the Imperium and Chaos - then we can proceed with our investigation as to whether the forces of Chaos are truly evil.

Going back to CSMs, it's been mentioned several times that they have various grievances about how they were treated by the Emperor, how humanity turned its' back on them, etc, which you could think of as justifying their actions. But this leaves out the fact that everyone from M31 is dead - apart from the Emperor and possibly a couple of missing Primarchs. And this huge horde of superhuman, supernaturally augmented guys in horned helmets with immortal allies, 10,000 years of experience, a collective chip on their shoulder as big as a Necron Monolith and the patronage of awesomely powerful gods, trying their utmost to destroy anyone unfortunate enough to be one of the False Emperor's minions. If some of those minions see the light and choose to worship the gods, excellent, but they're still pathetic dogs unworthy of the glory of the gods for which they fight, etc... because they don't wear power armour and didn't shake their fists at the Imperial Palace, 10,000 years ago, etc. Pah! Useless scum ;) CSMs are fighting a war of vengeance largely for things that happened 10,000 years ago, whereas most of their victims know nothing of the Heresy. Again it depends how you view the situation but I'd say that on the whole it is actually a simple case of good vs. evil, with a few exceptions here and there.

 

It's slightly different with the Tau and the Eldar (and to a certain extent the Orks) but I think GW have always intended Chaos, the Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar to be the 'greater evil' - CSMs and Dark Eldar through intelligent choice to commit evil, Necrons and Tyranids because although most of them are mindless, they are ultimately driven by vast, intelligent cosmic forces that aim to devour life in order to increase their power.

[Kingin]

Well I know we talked about how CSM's could be evil and that stuff and the Chaos gods are somewhat evil, but if everyone stopped thinking they were evil and bad then the Chaos gods might go back to the gods the Eldar worshiped from the post some other guy made (sorry i cant remember who said that) but I really think that people mis-understood CSM's. If one group of a race or group does something bad like it could be just one guy did something, people always say that, that group or race is bad because this ONE GUY (not the group) did this bad act. I feel like that some Chaos could be bad and sometime evil, but some of them just want to be left alone or just to live there lives not under the Imperium. Whats so bad about that? Also some people might do things that they just had to do to survive, or make a deal with a chaos god. Like if someone is sick with a really bad illness and that theres no cure for he could make a deal with Nurgle and Nurgle saved that person, but the person has to do what Nurgle says. I think each Space Marine or Imperial citizen made a choice to survive a Chaos god because it seemed like the right thing to do, although it was for themselves or even for someone they loved. I think they know love but because some Chaos gods (Khorne) makes them forget what it is, but what makes a Human an Human is that, that person always has a choice and that person could always make a choice.

[Roultox]

The point I was setting in my previous post is take one set of virtues that everyone (to some extent) agrees on. Use that set of virtues and apply rules to them. Then use those rules ruthlessly to pick apart the borders of good and evil. The commonality of Logic overrides emotion on the basis of good and evil in its most primal aspects. Emotion will always make us want to eat more and get fatter, while logic goes against it. Our emotion tells us not to put the half-dead dog to sleep, yet logic tells us to help the pooch to stop suffering. Logic is the answer.

 

If emotion were to define good and evil, then the neighbor you hate so much is the most evil thing in this world. If emotion decided what is pure and good, then your spouse/favorite thing to do is the most pure and good thing on this planet. Everyone will have a good and bad, and multiple of both sides.

 

Morals are based on general emotion on a subject or situation, on whats 'right' or 'wrong'. While being correct is the best way, good and evil didnt exist before there were people to make a 'good' or 'bad' side to things. Billions of years of hunter killing prey has always been there. Some people with opposable thumbs and a mouth to speak say its wrong to hunt another human being. However, if logic were the law over emotion then the rules of nature would apply to most given situations. Hunt what is harmful to you, do not harm your own, have a leader to lead the way while everyone else follows. (In most packs of animals there is an alpha)

 

Troubleshooting "what is evil":

1: Decide to yourself what is more important, survival of yourself and those you care about, (not including people you dont know), or survival of everyone including aliens, bugs, micro organisms, any humans you dont know.

-The reason you cant just pick the human race, is that your either an altruistic wisher or a selfish wisher. Altruistic wishers cannot be defined by picking just the human race, that is a gray area.

 

2: After finding what kind of wisher you are, (no shame in being a selfish wisher, trust me, I'm a selfish wisher) you can then apply what you would do in another persons shoes. If you chose a selfish outcome, and your an altruistic wisher then you cannot apply your logic to all things because the main form of viewing what is good and evil starts from the very fundamental and baseline what comes first question. Number 1 above decides what comes first to you as an individual. If you go against that, then your logic changes from what you are originally and your take on what is good and evil is flawed. (Not in a bad way, its just that you base things on personal experience rather then full consideration of the subject)

 

3: This troubleshooting 'What is evil" is a work in progress, dont take it too seriously. Its an experiment. Any comments welcome, and further troubleshootings to have a third person perspective on things as we type could help. As I always say, "Find the value at the akward angle"-personal saying.

[Lady_Canoness]

Just to throw in a comment that may help us with the whole Good/Evil Light/Dark definition, I would like to point out this obvious fact:

 

Good and Evil are constructions of the human mind; it is unnatural. Good and evil do not exist in nature, because nature has no concept of morallity (feel free to argue this one if you feel that you must. Outside of the human mindset there are no inherently good or evil things. However, even though Good and Evil do not exist in nature, there are certain acts that are "unnatural"; that is to say that even in nature where the concept good and evil do not exist, there are acts that are repungent to nature itself that almost no intelligent species commit. These actions may represent the ultimate Evil or Taboo (feel free to disagree, this is just a conjecture.) Most of these actions are characterised by animals acting with extreme discomfort around the act: eating the dead flesh of one's own specie for example is generally avoided. Note that killing is not abhorent to nature as it is to us - thus killing itself cannot be considered an unnatural act.

 

Take that for what you will.

[sjon]

Well let put it this way, it is indeed just a matter of perspective, but and this is a big but! If a faction forces its beliefs and/or religion upon another culture or whatever society that is just plain wrong, you are good when you help people no matter what they believe. So this makes in general all factions in the 40K universe not good, to say the least.. So how do we find the most bad @ss faction.. ergo, the biggest opposition of the Imperium, who is the ruling force, so should be considdered "the good guys"

 

Necrons, Orks, Tyranids.. Just all the same they have some objective and just kill the enemy and do not do really freaky stuff with you (well necrons maybe a little, but not real torture)

 

Eldar and Tau.. Eldar is just like the Imperium, but just in a bad possition.. They would treat all other races with the same intolerance as the Imperium would if the could.. Tau are maybe the closest thing that comes to a good guy, but still they are still conquering worlds and if you do not embrace their believes they will kill you.. With the Tau as alien you have a chance to live, the Imperium will just kill any xeno species they come across.. So these 2 are also not really evil..

 

Well Dark Eldar!! Now we are getting somewhere, slaves to torture, to take their sould and do the most gruesome things to them.. but the fallen eldar still need these souls so it is still more a matter of survival.. Nevertheless they are really nasty, but are more an annoyance to the Imperium than a dire threat.

 

Now we have come to chaos.. Several factions, but still can be organized once in a while to form a serieus threat and they are also they greatest threat within, because anyone can be turned! This is the strength of chaos, rebellion from within and offcourse the massive legions of the traitors.

Well when facing these guys as an imperial soldier it is not nice at all, these warriors of chaos are coming to destroy everything you believe in! If you are lucky you will get killed by a clean bolt shot or another big gun, but being ripped to pieces by a chainsword/axe is not a pleasant thing to look forward to.. being ripped apart by daaemons, not only your body, but also your soul.. And if you get captured you will likely be sacrificed in some gruesome ritual after you have been tortured, just for whorshipping the emperor. Or you get enslaved to build some infernal construct, something that will help to fight against your beloved emperor! And you have to, otherwise eternal damnation awaits, so you help.. you'd like to imagine what slaves of chaos get to eat, not nothing for they will have to work.. but no chaos worshipper is goin to cook for these slaves so they will be fed the remains of other slaves, and forced to drink the blood of your comrades.. You will slowly go insane, suicide might be the solutuion but you are likely closely watched and chained to other slaves so running is quite impossible.. And if help arrives you likely will have changed in appearance so much and gotten so insane your saviours will likely kill you on sight as you will look like just another cultist..

 

That is a fate far worse than death I can imagine.. There is a lot of evil but Chaos and Dark Eldar (being connected to Slaanesh so also chaos actually) are just insanely evil, they laugh at slaughter, they enjoy suffering of their enemies, they really hate you with all their hearts.. just malevolent hatred and you will hate them back and enjoy it when you kill one of these accursed traitors.. but these emotions will only fuel the gods you hate even more.

 

That is why I think chaos is really evil ;)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Oh, if you suggested that the Dark Eldar are Chaos Eldar on other forums, you'd be torn apart where you stood. Not that I'm going to do that, its just that memories of it happening to others made me cringe when I saw your comment.

 

What you need to remember though, is that a Chaos Marine, in most cases, doesn't hate you, he hates what you stand for. There's nothing personal about it at all. Also, as stated earlier by me, Chaos Itself isn't evil, as it embodies both normal and abhorrent feelings at the same time, and is just the embodiment of different concepts.

 

Even so, the forcing of a set of beliefs onto another, while it can be seen as "dark", to use the new terminology this topic is taking, those doing it obviously see it as being an improvement on the lives of the converted, otherwise they wouldn't bother, and wouldn't follow those beliefs themselves. For example, what if the belief that is being forced upon others is that the world is round, as opposed to flat? That for nearly any medical problem you can think of, applying leeches won't treat the problem? Trying to replace a religion that heavily endorses human sacrifices? Surely that is a "Light", even "Good", act?

 

Yes, there are many Chaos Marines that would gladly slaughter anybody that was in front of them, but that isn't a truly conscious choice. It is a choice influenced by a psychosis after being heavily exposed to the Warp. Put simply, those Chaos Marines are the closest we can get to any sort of "True Evil", as any semblance to sane behaviour has been lost, they will kill anything/anywhere/anytime if they believe that it will further their own agenda, increasing their power. Even so, they never purposefully made the choice to commit those actions, they merely started themselves down that road. After which, the only option was to fully give in to the desires of their god, disregarding their own intentions, or achieve Spawndom. To use legal speak, the decisions are made largely under duress, and the person isn't really all that sane at the time either.

[Lay]

Chaos fits the description that evil lies in the eye of the beholder:

- Nurgle: What you consider bad can be considered good by others.

- Tzeench: We are the sum of our actions. You can sacrifice thousands for a greater goal and still be evil, regardless of your intentions. Not to mention that Tzeench is supposed to be the embodiment of hope.

- Khorne: Kill + Maim + Burn = Evil.

etc.

 

No matter what your description of evil is there is always one facet will fit the bill.

 

Also, as stated earlier by me, Chaos Itself isn't evil, as it embodies both normal and abhorrent feelings at the same time, and is just the embodiment of different concepts.

I think it embodies the most intense feelings of that "grim and dark" future - "grim and dark" feelings.

[Roultox]

I think the thread is going in the right direction comparing the Warp with the laws of nature. It is not a system based on a way of life mortals force on others (morality). It is a natural way of things, and the deities are subject to it as well. To become a chaos follower, your following ancient feral ways for very old gods created from that substance. (Except slaanesh, of course)

 

On the dark e-dar.

Dark Eldar are fleeing from "She who thirsts" (Slaanesh) to a place in the immaterium (not the warp) that it is hard for slaanesh to pluck their souls. They raid because they take. They dont abandon their old ways (that created slaanesh), they just continue their life long murdering and self pleasuring. They dont affiliate themselves with chaos at all. Thus why people get piffy about 'Chaos Eldar' comments.

 

 

The warp is subject to what it consists of. If there were intelligent enough creatures to use it all to their advantage in a fully scientific way, then it would be more positive. Eldar constantly do so, with psychic powers+fully safe warp travel, and very little chance of possession.

 

On the case of the Tau, here is their dillema.

 

They have what they call Etherials. When any of them get close to an etherial, they get a unnatural high. THus they are easy to push around for an Etherial. Their so called greater good, is the greater good of the Tau over the greater good of the commoner that would be alien. They perform genocide in a very unnatural way. They prevent breeding, entire populations of billions of humans, they prevent breeding thus forcing a planet wide extermination by old age. Then replace them with their own people. Doesnt matter if they fully support the Tau Empire. They force extinct those not used for combat, and make sure they are only on one planet so they can take the rest for themselves.

 

The reason there are none questioning why Tau get all high and light headded around their Etherial leaders, is because none of them are allowed to do so. Think of it like the movie Matrix (I could refer better less popular movies for this) where the Etherials keep close watch over their puppets. Force extinct those not of their race, and call it the greater good to top it all off. Kill all of them I say. They need recuing from themselves just like any other race. (Perhaps Eldar can do it)

 

On the other hand, they were supposed to be exterminated when they were swinging clubs and swords, but the ship that was supposed to do it was lost in the warp. Allowing them to flourish, to be the thorn in the side of the Human Imperium, that struggles to keep their borders. Perhaps good that they stave off many Tyranids on one side, and combat orks on another, but their third side is way open to Imperial space. Tau are just as Xenocidal as any other race.

 

 

I hate to say it, but if you want a race that would ensure all other species are around till the end of time. Its orks, Orks take people as slaves and keep them, even to a low quality of life, they stay alive.

[sjon]

No of course it is not really evil, wanting to slaughter and torture just because you can and loving it while doing it is just another point of view ;)

[Roultox]

Yeah but not every chaos marine falls under that category. The marines are just the extended hand of the warp. The emotions stemmed from the warp influence the marines, driving them to the feral state. (Example, their state is not a civil or moral state, thus feral when linked to the warp) So they are just animals that talk at that point.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Uhh... Roultox, where did you get your info on the Tau? Nothing whatsoever states that the Tau exterminate through eugenics the other races subsumed into their Empire. Seriously, are there any examples of that? And don't quote the ending of DoW: Dark Crusade, that ending is so un-Tau-like it isn't funny. Also, I'll give you several canon examples of the Tau not killing their partner-races. Kroot. Nicassar. Demiurg. Vespid. Gue'La. All of those races have been fully integrated into the Empire, and aren't subject to any eugenics programs, or wiped out in any other way. Really, go re-read your Tau fluff.

Also, the only thing ever suggesting that the Tau get an "unnatural high" around the Ethereals is the Xenology book, and that can't be trusted for crud, with their stupid as hell "pheromone" theory. They give Tau toes, when they have hooves, and make up conspiricy theories for pretty much all the races. They also gave the pure-strain Kroot a human-like nose. The reason it seems the Tau follow the Ethereals is because they have been told since birth to follow the Greater Good. And also, the Ethereals aren't actually the ones making the commands, they oversee councils of all the other Castes combined, merely making sure that the decided course in in keeping with the Greater Good.

 

But still, back on topic: To answer Sjons last post, I'm assuming you're talking about the Dark Eldar here. In that case, is it really evil to be doing the only thing you have ever known to do, without anyone ever telling you its wrong? They grew up learning "might makes right", and that other races are below them. I mean, I'm sure that if cows were sentient, they'd think that we were evil. Same thing, pretty much. And if you are talking about Chaos Marines, then go back to my "Shadow" post, they have given in entirely to their God, for much less "evil" reasons, and had to devolve from there, or face Spawndom.

[Mammon]

The Traitor Legions made a conscious choice to defy the Emperor and seek to remake the Empire in their own image. Though this choice eventually led them into damnation and servitude of the Chaos lords it was their decision and one made while they were still sane. Each subsequent choice was influenced by their first choice, and their fates were set, at this point they believed only damnation to look forward to so in a way their behavior then became excusable in their minds. They thought themselves already beyond redemption and figured only one path remained open. This theory was a lie the gods and daemons of the warp used to convince the fallen marines to continue down the wide road. Regardless it still remained in their power to change their fate, they could have turned their backs on the will of the Chaos gods and sought atonement. Think of the Fallen Angels of the Dark Angels - sure some continued to rebel but some saw the foolishness of their decision and sequestered themselves throughout the Imperium seeking to serve the people in an effort to pay for their sins. The Mantis Warriors had originally sided with Huron Blakcheart but after their defeat and seeing the heresy Huron was guilty of their began a penitant crusade. Soul Drinkers are another good example of those who fell from grace realizing their error and choosing to change.

 

There is always a choice, though past events may seem to direct an individual towards certain choices they can change at any time. A killer and always change. Even a Fallen marine who has burned worlds and dedicated his life to serving the forces of Chaos can change. Chaos influences and to a degree controls but a choice to defy them to seek absolution always remains - they only have to see it, and set aside their selfish agenda in order to make it a reality.

[sjon]

Exactly :tu: .. But mainly the thing is with this discussion it is just an opinion thing.. There are no real theories about the warp.. it is just chaos and I think everybody should decide for himself if his chaos marines are evil or just misunderstood emo-kids.. I like mine to be zealous and having a twisted form of faith and wanting to built a huge cult around the gods (that is why I play word bearers.. evil knights templar.. how cool can it get, but that is what I think :P) So people be nice, there is no right and wrong basically in non existing WH40k fluff, all that is, is that the warp is fickle, treacherous and thirsting for souls *GROAWRLAGHHABLAAHWWW...*

 

edit: spelling

[Lord_Caerolion]

The point is, Mammon, that the now-Chaos Marines didn't just decide one day "Screw it, I'm betraying the Emperor. Lets go break some heads!" They all went traitor because they saw the Emperor as the evil one, that he had betrayed them. Just read the Horus Heresy series. In other words, the original choice was made with entirely good intentions. It was only after that when they began to demonstrate the more "evil" traits.

Also, the Mantis Warriors never worshipped Chaos, they just thought that the Imperium was too willing to turn on its own. So the comparison there is kinda flawed. Also, the Fallen never fully turned to the Chaos Gods, some of them probably didn't even begin. They were just in the middle of the galaxy's largest ever tantrum, having been left behind.

 

And don't try to tell me that there aren't any existing theories on the Warp, just go read the Liber Chaotica and the Realms of Chaos books. Both go into high detail about how the Gods work, and what happens when you turn to their worship. For example, there is the story of the Brothers von Gottlieb, which details the path of the Chaos Champion, and the possible endings of that path. Basically, and this is the part I was talking about before, is that the only way to stay on the path is to unquestioningly follow the orders of your God. One brother, who worships Khorne, does this. He starts off with innocent intentions, but these get washed away by the years of blood-shed, slowly devolving into an animal, pretty much. He becomes a Daemon Prince. The other brother, who worships Slaanesh, once again starts with innocent intentions, but his sanity stays with him as he progresses. This leads him to question whether what he's doing is right, and he almost immediately gets turned into a Spawn.

If you pledge your soul to the Chaos Gods, the concepts of right and wrong cannot enter your mind in relation to your Gods demands, or you'll lose it, along with the rest of your body and soul.

 

All this isn't to say though, Sjon, that you can't have your evil Word Bearers. As I stated before, what the Word Bearers do is incredibly amoral, and in a sense very, very "evil", they just don't embody a pure, "Universal Evil", which is what I think we are trying to define here. We aren't trying to stop anyone from having their Chaos Marines how they want them, and we have never labelled anyones ideas of how their Chaos Marines operate and what they want as wrong or right. I'm sorry if you've gotten that impression, but none of us have said anything along those lines in this topic. Alls I've said is that Chaos Marines that follow the Chaos Gods generally aren't all that right in the head, something that GW canon backs up.

[Mammon]

On my part I could have worded my post better , however, I did not question their intentions at the onset of their heresy , Caerolion, but the notion that once they began down the road to Chaos that they no longer had the conscious choice to change or seek redemption. The references to the Mantis Warriors and Fallen Angels is accurate in, as you said, they had yet to fall into Chaos, but their decisions to stand against the Imperium would lead them down that path (As it did with the Traitor Legions and the majority of Renegade Marines), yet they abandoned their folly and sought to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor and the Imperium. The Traitor Legions fall began with their decision to stand against the Emperor, regardless of their reasons, they eventually found themselves under the influence of Chaos; but, they could have changed at any time, it was within their power to deny the whispers of Chaos and seek a different path. All of this is to say that the Traitor Marines cannot hide behind the excuse of "Insanity" for their malicious deeds 10,000 years later because it was by their choice they came to their current state.

 

Incidently, I would say that the Chaos Space Marines who are deeply is not absolutely "Insane" (To the point of eating Grass and claiming his undergarments speak to him), but his logic has been warped by the denizens of the Warp so his conclusions and desires coincide with their own. So they aren't insane but their logic attacks the facts from an oblique angle.

 

- Like that was phrased any better...such is life.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, the definition you gave (kinda) is pretty much my definition of insanity. It doesn't mean that you'll think that the little green men will come for you when you sleep, but merely that their choices, for one reason or another, would not be the choices of a regular person. Even those fully consumed by their worship don't follow the method of insanity you first describe, but are either fully in apathy (Nurgle), a psychopathic psychosis (try saying that fast ten times!)(some Slaanesh, all Khorne).

 

Also, there are indications that the "point of no return", as it were, when dealing with the Chaos Gods, may come much sooner than you think. After all, in Galaxy In Flames, Khârn turns into a raging maniac, incapable of rational thought in battle and, according to him, unable to turn off his path, as "The only way now is forwards", or something along those lines. This was only a few months after Loken had spoken with him, having a civilised conversation with him. It's my belief that the only reason the Fallen were, in some cases, able to repent, is that they hadn't actually started worshipping Chaos, and following my definition of a "Universal Evil", were unable to rationalise it to themselves, so they had to turn back. In the case of the Chaos Legions, most were either corrupted beyond the point of return as Khârn was, or were so embittered and sure of their beliefs that they were capable of justifying their actions to themselves.

 

So no, I don't believe that the Chaos Marines can actually turn back now, really. This is part of their tragedy, and part of what makes them so appealing. The only option for the actual Chaos-worshiping Marines now is to continue falling down the spiral, so as not to fall off it completely.

[sjon]

I'm only saying there is no absolute truth in general, so everybody should respect each other's choices, as long it is not retarded B) . But this topic could continue on and on of people thinking they know the truth and as long the believe it is for them. So, if people are stubborn enough this topic will not end and we will not come to a joined conclusion :P.

I think we should have someone who has all chaos related books (fantasy and 40k) from rogue trader till now, I only have edition 3 and 4 and 5th edition till bow fantasy chaos books and all extra thingies.. I've read some novels and what I can make up so far is that the rulebooks of chaos are a lot friendlier than the BL stories :) (think it has to do with kids and their parents) So chaos might look like another kind of nature or whatever you want to call it, but it is reallyy nasty! But how can it be anything else as it's 4 great powers are constructs of men's worst qualities?