Emperor's Children About "Perfection?!"

[JoeChaos]

I don't know where these crazy ideas come from...new drugs provided to Slaanesh's chosen, I guess. Wherever did this idea about about "becoming the perfect warrior/killer" come from?

 

Slaanesh is, was, and always has been about decadence and debauchery. Sex, drugs, and rock n' roll. Where do you think the idea for "noise marines" came from?

 

Slaanesh was first introduced in Slaves to Darkness (1988):

 

"Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Power of Chaos dedicated to the pursuit of hedonistic pleasures and the overthrow of all codes of decent behavior. He reigns in a vast and luxuriously appointed palace in the void, where favoured followers litter the floors, indulging themselves in all forms of perverse pleasures of the flesh."

 

That's the first two sentences describing Slaanesh. You'd think his followers (daemon princes, chaos lords) would be seeking to emulate their lord and master. Creating "heaven" on Earth, so to speak.

 

Regarding worship, the original description states:

 

"Slaanesh is not a god of warriors...the worship of Slaanesh takes the form of great orgies involving every vice and perversity, and the highest member of his/her cults have altars and shrines concealed in their homes...." Folks, this is the daemon god of the bedroom. <_<

 

Specific to the Emperor's Children, here's the description of the EC's participation in the Terran Invasion:

 

"As one of the Traitor Legions, the Emperor's Children invaded Earth, but took little part in the fighting around the Imperial Palace. Simple pleasures had given way to complex debaucheries. While their allies fought and died the Emperor's Children slaughtered more than a million people and rendered them down to create endless varieties of drugs and stimulants. Countless thousands more died to give the Legionnaires more direct, if cruder, enjoyment."

 

There's a reason why EC models get tricked out as "sex-crazed psychopathic monsters" (as one poster states)...because they ARE sex-crazed, psychopathic monsters! Fact of the matter is that none of the Chaos legions are very nice...they're all rotten and corrupt to the core, utterly devoid of redeeming qualities like, say "martial pride." Khârn kills people, not because of a quest to be the perfect warrior, but because he is filled with an unholy rage and a lust for blood and skulls...even those of his own battle brothers. Lucius is a near-immortal sado-masochist. Maybe once upon a time these guys were concerned about honing their battle skills and becoming "perfect warriors" but no more. Now they live only to serve the whims of their daemonic masters.

 

Each Chaos God has their particular "niche market," and Slaanesh's is sexual perversion. If that's more distasteful to you than bloodletting and carnage...well, personally I think that says something about societal values (and not something good!).

 

My opinion: if you want to play Slaanesh then get over it, and accept that your army is (like all the other Chaos legions) disgusting and exemplary of some of the worst traits in human nature. Break out the pink latex and whips, but forget all about "safe words;" Chaos marines aren't about saying please or playing nice with others. If you want to hone your combat skills, you should probably be playing Ultramarines or something. Chaos is the short, quick road to power...Chaos relies on the "gifts" of our gods to give us the power and skills we desire.

 

The only cost is our souls... :wub:

[Messanger of Death]

You have presented a well supported arguement JoeChaos. Your argument holds some truth, especially since the word perfection doesnt appear in any of the gamesworkshop english based websites when describing slannesh. But I think you need to read refuse's description of how slannesh seek "perfection" in one of the recent threads. I think what he is saying is that slannesh troops are continuously trying to achieve even greater sensations and this "lust" for more has become describe as seeking "perfection". His cotton ball metaphor is very effective in explaining this.

 

"The Emperor’s Children pursue ultimate pleasure in the horror of battle, joining with other corrupted Space Marines devoted to Slaanesh in vile crusades. Most became Noise Marines, twisted creatures addicted to fury and tempest, only satisfied by the roar of explosions and the screams of the dying. Only the most extreme sensations can provoke a reaction from these jaded veterans, causing them to decorate their armour in dazzling, clashing colours, and adorn it with shimmering silks and golden chains.

 

Despite their insanity, they remain vicious, savage warriors, delighting in the destruction they cause in battle, willing to serve any master in return for fresh slaves upon which to practice their devotion to Slaanesh. Some even rise to become warlords in their own right, striving to recreate the days millennia ago when their Primarch, Fulgrim, led his Legion across countless worlds in an orgy of pain and death. These creatures are even more terrifying than the maniacs who serve them: from beyond pleasure-fuelled insanity they survey the galaxy with savage glee; never content to rest, always striving to surpass their latest indulgence with new, even more decadent experiences".

 

That text was taken from the UK web site and if you read the last sentence of the last paragraph what refuse is getting at is explained there.

 

Messanger

[flintlocklaser]

Messanger, to me that whole block quote, and especially that last line, just seem to reinforce JoeChaos' point. If anything, saying they are "always striving to surpass their latest indulgence with new, even more decadent experiences" means that if they are trying to "perfect" anything, it's their own perversions. Granted, the theme of the old, pre-heresy ECs was the perfection of the art of war - but Slaanesh is about sensual pleasure. You can (successfully) argue that the current, corrupted ECs find that sensual pleasure in war itself, and you can argue as to how much of their old institutional bias towards perfection remains as their prime motivator. But to me the official fluff seems to state that the current ECs are in line with Slaaneshi pursuit of indulgence, and that any trend towards perfection is just a gloss on their true motives, a remnant of their pre-heresy days. People are of course free to represent their armies differently - after all, this is just a hobby, and at the end of the day it's your army, not GW's and not mine. But if you entirely lose sight of the fact that a follower of Slaanesh is a follower of pleasure, you're jettisoning what makes an army Slaaneshi rather than just followers of Chaos as a whole.

[Drakelet]

I assume this is in reply to my thread :P

 

How I see it is yes, Slaanesh is completely about excess and pleasure. Doesn't give a <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> about perfection. BUT, Emperor's Children are NOT Slaanesh. Slaanesh =/= Emperor's Children. Whilst Slaanesh may be all about pleasure, doesn't mean EC are completely. The non-EC Slaanesh followers are likely to be about excess, as they have nothing at all to do with perfection. Pre-heresy, Children lived for perfection.

 

I just don't see how, at a press of a button, Children completely forgot their perfection lust. Sure, they still follow Slaanesh, experiencing excess and pleasure, but IMO they would still want to be perfection, if not only in war. Perfection is pleasure - How do you feel if you achieve a really difficult goal? You feel great! I'm not saying they don't mass murder or pillage or beat, just I think they have other things in their lives than that.

 

I do know exactly where you're coming from, and agree Slaanesh is ALL about excess. I just don't want EC to just become WE - I want them to have more depth rather than just "kill4fun". I still couldn't see Children just finding some weak enemy just so they can kill them (and feed Khorne more than Slaanesh) when they can find a hard, difficult enemy, to perfect their skills...And kill and enjoy. Khorne followers seem to enjoy blood rather than killing, whereas killing lots of weak, easy things isn't fun, it's boring and annoying.

[JoeChaos]

Drakelet: your posting was one of the posts I was responding to, but certainly not the only one.

 

“Pre-Heresy Children lived for perfection.” Frankly, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Everything I’ve read shows the EC were compared to decadent fops even before they turned traitor (granted this is in comparison to a regular, stoic Astartes, like the Death Guard…see Flight of the Eisenstein). I understand the BL books aren’t necessarily canonical, but I’ve seen nothing anywhere to suggest these guys are patterned after Sun Tzu. Hell, they were the fourth Legion to turn traitor (following on the heels of the psycho-implant World Eaters!). Clearly, EC was already living on the edge.

 

Anyway, I’m not talking pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, I’d expect folks would use the standard space marine codex, and outfit EC fairly normal (if perhaps a bit extravagant). I’m talking post-Heresy, post-Traitor…and I have to disagree with you strongly on this point: post-Heresy, the Emperor’s Children very much = Slaanesh.

 

Chaos marines are not simply heretics in need of a good torture session with the Inquisition; they have been thoroughly corrupted by the Ruinous Powers. As such, they have sold their souls for power, and now live only to fulfill the whims of their Chaos patron. Those that won’t act as a vessel for the will of their gods are cast aside and trodden on by those that will. Chaos marines no longer have anything resembling “free will;” they are the devoted servants of their dark gods. Treating them otherwise is misunderstanding the nature of the beast, in my opinion.

 

Somewhere back in the past (I don’t have the reference in front of me), the GW fluff explained greater daemons are personifications or avatars of their respective gods. That an EC unit can be possessed by a Whisperer of Secrets indicates that these marines are one & the same with their master…or at least one with their master’s will.

 

Did EC simply turn off their “perfectionist tendencies?” Yeah, I think so…basically, they’ve crossed a line and can’t go back. And why would they want to, when the pleasures and rewards offered by their dark god is so much more than anything the false Emperor ever gave them? What is the point of practicing sword play or drilling target practice when you can instead indulge in the hedonistic pleasures that are pleasing worship to Slaanesh…and then be rewarded with daemonic weapons that fight for you with fantastic skill!

 

Get inside the head of your army…you have sold your soul to Slaanesh for the gifts Slaanesh has to offer. And what can Slaanesh offer? Pleasure beyond your wildest imaginings. C’mon, folks…what images come to mind when you hear the phrase “lash of submission,” anyway?

 

I think part of the problem is with GW trying to find “balance” to make EC a competitive army…they’ve sacrificed some of the fluff and given not-so-great justifications for the stat boosts. In the old days, there was no “increase in Initiative.” Instead, followers of Slaanesh had their Leadership boosted to show how jaded they’d become. But when you start making ALL cult troops fearless, high Leadership isn’t really an advantage. Tzeentch’d already cornered the market on magic. “Noise weapons” and high Initiative is just throwing a bone to an army that fluff-wise wouldn’t necessarily hold up to other armies on the field of battle.

 

Why do you think Khorne (traditionally) hates Slaanesh more than any other chaos god…including Tzeentch, patron of sorcerers? Khorne lives for battle and blood. Slaanesh is the antithesis of Khorne…s/he’s a “lover,” not a fighter!

 

For folks who love sleazy fluff, Slaanesh (and EC) is fantastic…just like World Eaters are for folks who really, really like close combat, Thousand Sons for magic/psykers, and Death Guard for un-killable mollusks. The people I know who’ve field EC and have a ton of fun are those who revel in what the EC is all about and lavishly pervert the heck out of their models…and when they’re doing that, questions like whether or not lash of submission is over-powered become moot…it’s not cheesy or munchkiny, it’s just playing to your army’s fluff (seducing and corrupting your opponent with the pleasures of Slaanesh!)! :P

[Drakelet]

That's a very good point JoeChaos, and TBH I'd never really seen it from the perspective. But it does make a lot of sense. Although you have nearly made me want to turn to Khorne haha!

 

What I'm trying to get my head around know is, well, a few things. Why do Children fight? What do they fight for? I have no idea how I would write any fluff concerning them, as they do seem mindless zombies, in a bad way. How would their mutations help them experience pleasure, or does Slaanesh just like the look of f***ed up faces? :lol:

 

I hope you see where I'm coming from. I just feel as though I'm going into a big grey area, trying not to get lost.

[Desikratis]

I think you are over-looking a quite crucial part in your arguments here JoeChaos.

 

Sure you have collected a lot of fluff that doesn't state that the EC are seeking perfection in all its forms, but this peice:

 

"Slaanesh whispers to Man in many different voices, each whispr attuned to the most secret desires of the listener. Many desires perfection, whether in the intellect, the body or in ability, and Slaanesh will grant these individuals the power and drive to hone their desires to the utmost excellense. Artists will produce works beyond human comprehension and the warrior develope such abbileties that a casual gesture might decapitate the mighties of foes".

 

..... clearly states that Slaanesh is all about Perfection, or at least the human vanity of thinking that we are (or will be). There is no fluff saying that the EC are not opssesed with perfection, or that they don't think they are perfect.

 

Thats 1 peice of fluff agianst 0, is it not ;) .

 

I can't find a single peice of fluff that states Slaanesh would be some kind of Drug/Sex-God, or that the Emperors Children are a bunch of druged sex-maniacs :lol: .

Remember (I'm not trying to correct you or anything, but anyway...) that the only thing Astartes realy know is War, they were built and breed for this. The only thing Slaanesh can offer a Space Marine that he will take interes in, is to dominate the battlefield, to be the perfect killing-machine.

But howerver, i'm not saying that the EC are not a bunch of cruel perverts that takes joy in destruction, just look at the Noice Marines. It says "Addicted to the roar of explosions and the sceams of the dying" in their fluff for a reason. If think that Refus's theory fits realy good when your talking about Noice Marines.

 

The Noice Marines are another example of the Astartes opssesion with War, its the only thing they understand, and the only thing they take real, passionat joy in (even loyalists).

 

If i had to deside, I would pick these words to describe the Emperors Children Post- and Pre- Heresy:

 

Before the heresy the EC where opssesed with attaining perfection in all its forms, they wanted to be like their father, the Emperor. For he was the only person worth the praise of the Space Marines, he was the ultimate Warrior. But, the Childrens strive for perfection were replaced by narcissism, they thought that they already were perfect, they didn't need anyone else, they were superior to anything and anyone (even the Emperor).

Its not hard to rebell against some one you do not belive you need or someone you do not respect or adore. But, they did adore Horus, he had replaced the Emperor when it came to war, he was the equall (or at least, almost the equall) of Fulgrim in his perfection, they had no problem siding with him.

After the heresy the EC still think themself perfect, it was not their fault the heresy had failed, it was that fool Horus and his lackeys who had draged the Emperors Children down, without them they would have won! Perfect as they are.............

 

 

But, this is only my view of the Emperors Children. Nobody's wrong any nobody's right.

 

Cheers!

 

-Desikratis

[refuse]

Drakelet: your posting was one of the posts I was responding to, but certainly not the only one.

 

“Pre-Heresy Children lived for perfection.” Frankly, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Everything I’ve read shows the EC were compared to decadent fops even before they turned traitor (granted this is in comparison to a regular, stoic Astartes, like the Death Guard…see Flight of the Eisenstein). I understand the BL books aren’t necessarily canonical, but I’ve seen nothing anywhere to suggest these guys are patterned after Sun Tzu. Hell, they were the fourth Legion to turn traitor (following on the heels of the psycho-implant World Eaters!). Clearly, EC was already living on the edge.

Look here:

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...or%27s_Children

 

The 3rd edition (3.0) version of the Chaos Codex states:

Once a Legion dedicated to perfection in all its pusuits, the Emperor's Children succumbed to the call of forbidden knowledge. Their drive for perfection was perverted to an obsession with excess, and the members of the legion will stop at nothing to gratify their basest desires. Chaos Space Marines of the Emperor's Children make war into an art form; a riot of sounds and sights and sensations. Doom sirens wail and implements of torture slash as these followers of Slaanesh are driven to further extremes in order to stimulate their overloaded senses.

 

Anyway, I’m not talking pre-Heresy. Pre-Heresy, I’d expect folks would use the standard space marine codex, and outfit EC fairly normal (if perhaps a bit extravagant). I’m talking post-Heresy, post-Traitor…and I have to disagree with you strongly on this point: post-Heresy, the Emperor’s Children very much = Slaanesh.

 

Chaos marines are not simply heretics in need of a good torture session with the Inquisition; they have been thoroughly corrupted by the Ruinous Powers. As such, they have sold their souls for power, and now live only to fulfill the whims of their Chaos patron. Those that won’t act as a vessel for the will of their gods are cast aside and trodden on by those that will. Chaos marines no longer have anything resembling “free will;” they are the devoted servants of their dark gods. Treating them otherwise is misunderstanding the nature of the beast, in my opinion.

 

Somewhere back in the past (I don’t have the reference in front of me), the GW fluff explained greater daemons are personifications or avatars of their respective gods. That an EC unit can be possessed by a Whisperer of Secrets indicates that these marines are one & the same with their master…or at least one with their master’s will.

Keeper of Secrets but yes, 100%

 

From Slaves to Darkness:

All are welcome in the cults of Slaanesh. The only requirements are an unswerving dedication to the pursuit of pleasure and a willingness to explore every possible vice and perversion to this end. This must be done regardless of any conventional codes of decent behavior or any law. It is only possible to incure the displeasure of this god by showing some remaining trace of moral scruples.

 

If anything, I think the EC would do alot of things, the young minds here rather not think about. Remove all those naked females from your models, that is mundane and boring. Replace 1/2 of them with male models. Yes, the worshipers of Slaanesh wouldn't just stop at heterosexual sex. Heck, add in some beasties to get a better flavor.

 

Did EC simply turn off their “perfectionist tendencies?” Yeah, I think so…basically, they’ve crossed a line and can’t go back. And why would they want to, when the pleasures and rewards offered by their dark god is so much more than anything the false Emperor ever gave them? What is the point of practicing sword play or drilling target practice when you can instead indulge in the hedonistic pleasures that are pleasing worship to Slaanesh…and then be rewarded with daemonic weapons that fight for you with fantastic skill!

 

Get inside the head of your army…you have sold your soul to Slaanesh for the gifts Slaanesh has to offer. And what can Slaanesh offer? Pleasure beyond your wildest imaginings. C’mon, folks…what images come to mind when you hear the phrase “lash of submission,” anyway?

Slaanesh doesn't offer pleasure. No where in the books does it mention she does. You are not pleasured beyond anything. You seek those, and subject yourself to those. Slaanesh offers you the "allusion" of pleasure. While the daemonette rips you apart your body feels elated, but your mind is horrified. You walk to your doom, happily but full of revulsion.

 

Slaanesh is debasement, the breaking of morals and sanity.

The hearts of mortals harbour the darkest of desires, and it is in Slaanesh that these desires find expression. Every culture imposes limits and standards on its people: Slaanesh is the manifestation of the desire to stretch these limits to breaking point, to exceed them, and to wallow in the act of violating every more of civilized society.

 

Slaanesh is violation. And not your subjects, yours. You strip away all the morals, and restraints, giving yourself to every pleasure (yours and theirs). You bathe in sin.

 

I think part of the problem is with GW trying to find “balance” to make EC a competitive army…they’ve sacrificed some of the fluff and given not-so-great justifications for the stat boosts. In the old days, there was no “increase in Initiative.” Instead, followers of Slaanesh had their Leadership boosted to show how jaded they’d become. But when you start making ALL cult troops fearless, high Leadership isn’t really an advantage. Tzeentch’d already cornered the market on magic. “Noise weapons” and high Initiative is just throwing a bone to an army that fluff-wise wouldn’t necessarily hold up to other armies on the field of battle.

100%

Exactly. Slaanesh wasn't fearless, they were enraptured by the experience. To run was to avoid the experience, the debasement, the seeking of pleasure.

 

Noise Marines were introduced around WD 144 (pre-2nd edition) and with 2nd edition, chaos changed from the Horror of RT to the commedy of 2nd edition. So Noise Marines became the archetype of Slaanesh, while the mark for marines still made them fearless.

 

With 3rd, that was carried forward. But with the IA article (see the link above) Emperor's Children became noise marines. Then with the 3.5 version it wasn't to bad (except Slaanesh was fearless, and caused their enemies to become slower (scared!). With 4.0 it is a simple increase to the initative.

 

Why do you think Khorne (traditionally) hates Slaanesh more than any other chaos god…including Tzeentch, patron of sorcerers? Khorne lives for battle and blood. Slaanesh is the antithesis of Khorne…s/he’s a “lover,” not a fighter! ;)

 

For folks who love sleazy fluff, Slaanesh (and EC) is fantastic…just like World Eaters are for folks who really, really like close combat, Thousand Sons for magic/psykers, and Death Guard for un-killable mollusks. The people I know who’ve field EC and have a ton of fun are those who revel in what the EC is all about and lavishly pervert the heck out of their models…and when they’re doing that, questions like whether or not lash of submission is over-powered become moot…it’s not cheesy or munchkiny, it’s just playing to your army’s fluff (seducing and corrupting your opponent with the pleasures of Slaanesh!)! :lol:

I think if you read Libera Chaotica Slaanesh, you will find some great stories in there. That really set the tone you are trying to get across.

 

If you followed Slaanesh, you would do the things that you would hate, that society would hate. You would perform acts that would make your mother scream (and probably on your mother too!)

There is nothing redeeming about Slaanesh (or any of the Chaos powers).

 

 

The dead Eldar, however, were not gone. Their spirits had merged with the warp and merged in a horrifying manner. Their death-shout became a howl of joy and release. Slaanesh, the Lord of Pleasure, master of unbridled depravity, was born from the dark side of the Eldar nature.

[JoeChaos]

Refuse: I’m not sure if you’re supporting my thread or disagreeing with me. Or both. What are you, a Libra? Pick a side already! :P

 

I find the bulk of your link to be far more informative and descriptive of both EC and Slaanesh than the two sentences about perfection under the 3rd Edition Codex heading. As I said earlier, this appears to be a weak attempt at justifying some boosts to make EC more combat effective.

 

Refuse wrote:

Slaanesh doesn't offer pleasure. No where in the books does it mention she does. You are not pleasured beyond anything. You seek those, and subject yourself to those. Slaanesh offers you the "allusion" of pleasure.

 

Did you read the rest of the information in your link? Especially regarding the corruption of the EC and how they were “pleasured beyond endurance?” More than that, check the description of Slaanesh in the current CSM Codex, pg. 10. To me, it doesn’t sound like Slaanesh is offering illusion…only that the pleasure and power he gifts his followers with grow stale with time (i.e. they become jaded and must seek even greater decadence).

 

Ha! Just noted that EC was the first legion to defect to the Warmaster…even before the World Eaters, in other words! :lol:

 

Desikratis: I have no idea where your quote is from. Is this your own fluff or is this some canon source? If so, please cite your source so I can check it out. As far as not finding any fluff to support my point of view…um, haven’t you been reading this post? Check the link posted by Refuse, then get back to me.

 

Desikratis wrote:

…, it was not their fault the heresy had failed, it was that fool Horus and his lackeys who had draged the Emperors Children down, without them they would have won!

 

Just talking GW canon here, EC “took little part in the fighting around the Imperial Palace” spending more time collecting slaves and doing horrible, perverted things to them. Who knows, the Heresy might have succeeded if the EC hadn’t been distracted by their orgiastic depravity.

 

Drakelet:

 

Not a good idea to profess an affection for Khorne on a Slaanesh forum, pal! ;)

 

Seriously, though, I don’t think being a soulless abomination is the same as being mindless (EC isn’t the Thousand Sons after all). Check the Chaos fluff on pg. 45 of the new CSM codex from the point of view of an EC aspiring champ. The line:

 

“Adrastus whispered gleefully into his comm, unable to keep the excitement from his voice.”

 

I find to be especially descriptive. Consider some of the more “playful” villains from recent horror films; I’m thinking of Rob Zombie movies here…try Otis and Baby from The Devil’s Rejects. And, of course, Captain Spaulding from House o 1K Corpses. Are they completely irredeemable evil? Absolutely. Do they treat human beings like their personal playthings? Absolutely. Totally demented and violent? Absolutely.

 

But they are NOT mindless. Yeah, they’re f’d in the head. Yeah, they carve peoples’ faces off and wear them as jokes. Yes, they appear to be suicidally fearless. Pretty much how I’d describe the Emperor’s Children. B)

 

Imagine if the Firefly family (from the aforementioned movies) did what they did because they worshipped a dark god that promised them power and immortality in exchange for their souls and the indulgence of their sick fantasies. That’s the EC.

 

Unfortunately for the rest of the galaxy, the EC are more than just a tight-knit family turned evil; they also happen to be some of the finest warriors ever seen. They have centuries of battle knowledge under their belts, as well as the bio-engineered might to back it up. And yet all that’s an after-thought compared to serving their lord Slaanesh. Truly scary folks if you ask me!

 

I caught part of the new American Gladiators on TV last night. This guy called “The Wolf” said to one of the contestants: “I smell blood, I smell fear…I’m gonna' eat you.” Paint THAT on your land raider, EC fans! B)

 

Drakelet asked:

How would their mutations help them experience pleasure

 

Personally, I’d guess it’s the lucky EC who has a mutation that actually helps him experience pleasure. The mutations are a sign of the taint of chaos…but after 10,000 years the average EC is creative enough to figure out ways of deriving pleasure from whatever gifts Slaanesh chooses to bestow! ;)

[TheSovereign]

"There is nothing redeeming about Slaanesh (or any of the Chaos powers)."

 

Would have to disagree, also I would disagree more generally with the thread. There are some redeeming factors about the Chaos Gods -- e.g. Nurgle as a symbol of life and hope as well as disease.

 

As far as Slaanesh goes, I think it is mostly a god of wanton sensation and experience. I think saying Slaanesh is dedicated to sexual pleasure is a little too specific. Besides, if it were, then why would we have Slaanesh warriors anyway? Wouldn't they be too busy with other things? I think this supports the Slaanesh as the god of sensations theory.

 

I don't know, I'm torn. I do agree that Chaos isn't and shouldn't be all nicey-nice, but then, 99% of 40k isn't. However, I also don't think that Chaos armies should be locked into very specific archetypes, otherwise we'd have a lack of new fluff and army ideas.

 

For example, yes, Khorne is all about the killing. However, I think there can be variations on this. I recall reading in one novel about Khornate warriors cursing ranged weapons as dishonourable and partaking in ritualistic duels with captives, killing them if they refused to fight. Maybe that author just didn't know what he was talking about, but I think it makes things more interesting if we can have varied interpretations of the Chaos gods rather than single monolithic types.

[JoeChaos]

Nurgle as a symbol of life and hope? What the f--?!! :P

 

Sovereign, you’re welcome to disagree with my statement that Chaos has no redeeming qualities, but that’s kind of like disagreeing with the statement Tau are all about the Greater Good. In other words, you sound nuttier than a fruitcake.

 

I’m not saying Slaanesh isn’t about sensations in general. I’m not saying Slaasnesh is soley dedicated to “sexual pleasure.” I said hedonism, debauchery, decadence…these things include sex, drugs, gluttony, loud music with adult lyrics. It includes the finest silk fabrics and sheerest latex, the gaudiest color palettes, and the richest of delicacies…up to and including human flesh, no doubt! :lol:

 

There are no “good guys” in a game about war because, let’s face facts: war pretty much sucks for everyone involved. But in this fantasy war game called 40K, Chaos is the undisputed main bad guy. Tyranid, Necrons…sure they’re mean, but they’re Xenos…that’s just the way they are. Chaos forces were once human and have fallen into the abyss of human depredation; there’s no redemption for them only a swift cleansing with fire and bullets.

 

I don’t think there’s any danger of running out of new fluff for any of the armies (well, maybe Necrons) but ESPECIALLY not Chaos…even those devoted to a single particular Chaos god. Just like you can always create a new Space Marine chapter, you can always create a new renegade Chapter that has turned to the depraved pleasures of Slaanesh…or whichever dark lord tickles your fancy! B)

[Messanger of Death]

JoeChaos i think you need to realise that most people that have presented their views in this thread share a very similar idea of what Slannesh and EC are about, the exception to this is the view that Slannesh is a god that seeks not only pleasures of all forms (as you agree) including sexual acts and the "ultimate pleasure in the horror of battle" but also that Slannesh is a god of perfection (which you disagree with).

 

And my point of including that chunk from the UK games workshop website was to provide a summary of what EC are all about. That last line of the last paragraph suggests (to me) that the EC seek perfection in all forms of pleasure. How else can you describe their "never [ending] content to rest...to surpass their latest indulgence with new, even more decadent experiences" other than by describing it as a "lust" for perfection in all "experiences"?

 

May i suggest that this thread or a new thread get created with the intent of exploring what Slannesh and the EC stand for (lost for a better word to use).

 

Messanger

[TheSovereign]

JoeChaos,

 

The bit about Nurgle and hope comes from the last Chaos codex, I believe. Hope and rebirth, that is. Could be wrong but have definitely read it in official fluff. Don't have mine on this continent but if someone could check I'd appreciate it.

 

Let me clarify: I'm more for the picture of Chaos Space Marines as cold-hearted, sadistic, insane, and twisted than as misunderstood bitter sore losers.

 

However, I think there's enough room for multiple interpretations of the army. E.G. there is room for honour and pride in Khorne (that's how he gets you, anyway), pursuit of perfection of a particular ability in Slaanesh, life and evolution in Tzeentch, etc.

 

I was considering starting a Slaanesh force based around sonic weaponry and a sorceror as a "grand conductor" with Lash representing his abilities. I don't want a writhing army of drug-laden lunatics, I want a quite-mad "symphony" of destruction, taking pride in their wargear and the hellish sounds they bring with them to war.

 

I think this is an interesting army idea, and it fits Slaanesh better than anything (with maybe Tzeentch a close second, but the Lash ability for a "conductor" is just too much of a good fit). Is it okay?

[refuse]

Refuse: I’m not sure if you’re supporting my thread or disagreeing with me. Or both. What are you, a Libra? Pick a side already! :rolleyes:

 

I find the bulk of your link to be far more informative and descriptive of both EC and Slaanesh than the two sentences about perfection under the 3rd Edition Codex heading. As I said earlier, this appears to be a weak attempt at justifying some boosts to make EC more combat effective.

 

Refuse wrote:

Slaanesh doesn't offer pleasure. No where in the books does it mention she does. You are not pleasured beyond anything. You seek those, and subject yourself to those. Slaanesh offers you the "allusion" of pleasure.

 

Did you read the rest of the information in your link? Especially regarding the corruption of the EC and how they were “pleasured beyond endurance?” More than that, check the description of Slaanesh in the current CSM Codex, pg. 10. To me, it doesn’t sound like Slaanesh is offering illusion…only that the pleasure and power he gifts his followers with grow stale with time (i.e. they become jaded and must seek even greater decadence).

 

Ha! Just noted that EC was the first legion to defect to the Warmaster…even before the World Eaters, in other words! :lol:

 

They were pleasured beyond belief (in the old fluff) not by Slaanesh, but by Horus to get them to worship Slaanesh.

 

Slaanesh doesn't reward you, Slaanesh demands you Debase yourself.

Slaanesh gives you heightened sensitivity to speed you down the path.

 

 

Did I read the rest of the information in my link? You mean on my site? Emperorschildren.net in the wiki I created? Yeah, I did.

During a parley, the Chapter Master and his highest officers were corrupted by the decadent pastimes that Horus and his Chaos-worshippers offered. Drugged, pleasured beyond endurance, and finally broken, they agreed to keep the Chapter neutral.

I don't see in that where Slaanesh pleasured them, I see where Horus and his Chaos-worhsippers.

Also, they didn't join Horus, they were neutral in the up coming battles. So did the defect (by turning their back on the Emperor, sure).

[JoeChaos]

Sovereign:

I think your idea of a mad orchestra is a perfect fit for a Slaanesh force, and an especially excellent use of the whole “Noise Marine” theme. Reminds me of a scene from Moorecock’s Elric of Melnibone...the albino sorcerer is being serenaded by an unholy choir of slaves, each slave having been surgically altered to sing but one pure note, and then all made to sing in coordination like some mad, human pipe organ. :D

 

Always did think Melniboneans would be a good fit with Slaanesh. Truly decadent. B)

 

Anyway...dug out my 3.5 codex and found the reference to Nurgle embodying “the notion of the eternal cycle of life.” Thankfully, the rest of the section strips away any trappings of decency from the Chaos god, including a caveat that any “rebirth” will “take a form loathsome to man,” if Father Nurgle has his way.

 

Also found Desikratis’s first quote in the Slaanesh section. Truly its been awhile since I’ve read the fluff in this codex! There’s even a mention of that dread word “perfection,” though it is in reference to how the followers of Slaanesh “often exhibit the utmost physical perfection to the naked eye.”

 

Oh...and indeed there is a specific quote about the Emperor’s Children once being “a Legion dedicated to perfection in all its pursuits.” Shoot...I stand corrected regarding the whole topic of my thread! :D

 

Full Disclosure Time: I don’t play Slaanesh; never have and (Khorne willing) probably never will. I’ve been a straight up World Eaters player for years, and the bitterest of my (very few) losses came to an accursed EC army. I have a great appreciation for the folks that play EC and they have some of the coolest armies ever painted.

 

More than anything, I’m a sucker for fluff, and I’ve been following Chaos fluff since the very beginning. And the stuff about being “perfect warriors” in the 3.5 Codex is a departure from the 2nd and 3rd codexes...heck, even from the original Slaves to Darkness or Dark Millennia. Thankfully, they seem to have left it out of the new codex...the old decadence was a lot cooler to model, in my opinion.

 

The 2nd edition Codex has the most extensive Chaos fluff; here’s a blurb from the EC specific that I would call incompatible with the 3.5 interpretation; I also like this explanation of noise marine weapons:

 

“While corrupt beyond human comprehension, the Emperor’s Children are a savage fighting force. Like many of Slaanesh’s followers they have become what are known as Noise Marines. These crazed followers of the Lord of Pleasure have become depraved and totally decadent warriors who seek and find perverse enjoyment in battle. The danger of combat is a rediscovered thrill and aphrodisiac, allowing them to reach new extremes of debauchery. The louder and more discordant the noise, the more extreme the emotional reaction provoked, until only the din of battle and terrified screams of the enemy can stir them. To further enhance their enjoyment Noise Marines carry outlandish weapons that produce deafening loud and pyrotechnically explosive attacks.”

 

Nothing in there about the pursuit of perfection as far as I can tell. Just crazy nut-jobs. But again, this was before their only benefit became a +1 Initiative. :mellow:

 

I hope I’ve at least helped stir some thought on the subject! ;) Cheers, folks!

[Desikratis]

Edit'ed: Wooops! Looks like I didn't read your last Post as clearly as I should have........... :mellow: doh!

 

(How do you delete this things!)

 

-Desikratis

[Drakelet]

OK, I'm confused. Looks like I'm going to have to re-read this thread tonight! :P

[Drakelet]

Damn, this thing is waaaay too long to read again! :P Any chance of people summarising their arguments? :)

[JoeChaos]

No more argument to summarize…according to fluff in CSM Codex 3.5, the Emperor’s Children are in fact all about “perfection.” This contradicts the army description in earlier sources (especially Slaves to Darkness and CSM Codex 2), and is not mentioned in the latest CSM 4. It appears to be a bone thrown by GW to make EC more playable, popular, and/or “battle-worthy;” kind of like the “Lucius” special character (don’t get me started).

 

Bottom line is: people who have been playing EC or Slaanesh forces for a long time are probably going to have their armies sculpted more in the old style (sexed up and debauched, in other words). Players who started EC more recently, or are more squeamish about the subject matter may go the “perfect warrior” route, though I’d contend it’s a bit of a stretch to get there, not to mention…well, a bit contradictory (why does gaudy colored armor = perfectionist extremism? It doesn’t really, though it does = chaotic sensory over-load).

 

ANYWAY, either way of playing is perfectly acceptable fluff-wise…though from what I’ve been reading on this Slaanesh board, most EC players seem less concerned with “fluff” and more concerned with the double lash technique. ;) Knock yourselves out kids…I’m heading back to my safe little World Eaters forum…nothing’s changed about THEIR fluff over the years!

:tu:

[MarinesoftheRisingSun]

Messanger, to me that whole block quote, and especially that last line, just seem to reinforce JoeChaos' point. If anything, saying they are "always striving to surpass their latest indulgence with new, even more decadent experiences" means that if they are trying to "perfect" anything, it's their own perversions. Granted, the theme of the old, pre-heresy ECs was the perfection of the art of war - but Slaanesh is about sensual pleasure. You can (successfully) argue that the current, corrupted ECs find that sensual pleasure in war itself, and you can argue as to how much of their old institutional bias towards perfection remains as their prime motivator. But to me the official fluff seems to state that the current ECs are in line with Slaaneshi pursuit of indulgence, and that any trend towards perfection is just a gloss on their true motives, a remnant of their pre-heresy days. People are of course free to represent their armies differently - after all, this is just a hobby, and at the end of the day it's your army, not GW's and not mine. But if you entirely lose sight of the fact that a follower of Slaanesh is a follower of pleasure, you're jettisoning what makes an army Slaaneshi rather than just followers of Chaos as a whole.

 

disagree, Khorne is the warrior's orgasm, Slaanesh just covers the rest

[flintlocklaser]

Messanger, to me that whole block quote, and especially that last line, just seem to reinforce JoeChaos' point. If anything, saying they are "always striving to surpass their latest indulgence with new, even more decadent experiences" means that if they are trying to "perfect" anything, it's their own perversions. Granted, the theme of the old, pre-heresy ECs was the perfection of the art of war - but Slaanesh is about sensual pleasure. You can (successfully) argue that the current, corrupted ECs find that sensual pleasure in war itself, and you can argue as to how much of their old institutional bias towards perfection remains as their prime motivator. But to me the official fluff seems to state that the current ECs are in line with Slaaneshi pursuit of indulgence, and that any trend towards perfection is just a gloss on their true motives, a remnant of their pre-heresy days. People are of course free to represent their armies differently - after all, this is just a hobby, and at the end of the day it's your army, not GW's and not mine. But if you entirely lose sight of the fact that a follower of Slaanesh is a follower of pleasure, you're jettisoning what makes an army Slaaneshi rather than just followers of Chaos as a whole.

 

disagree, Khorne is the warrior's orgasm, Slaanesh just covers the rest

 

So I'm wondering why you wrote "disagree," since that's pretty much what the passage you quoted was saying?

[MarinesoftheRisingSun]

...oh, sorry, happens sometimes :wink:

[flintlocklaser]

Hehe, no worries!

[Foehammer888]

I think what many may be missing (it may be mentioned above, I skimmed it rather quickly), is that the EC continuously striving for perfection didn't drive them to the worship of slaanesh, but rather allowed for their fall to the worship of slaanesh.

 

The legion was built upon its marines striving for perfection, and the Emperor and Fulgrim were the ultimate representations of that perfection. Each lower rank within the legions organization strove to be more like their supperiors. The lord commanders strove to be exactly like Fulgrim. The company captains strove to be exactly like the Lord Commanders. The Squad sergeants strove to be exactly like the captains. This form of "hero worship", and the belief that your superiors could do no wrong, meant that when Fulgrim and his higher commanders became corrupted by slaanesh, the rest of the EC legion willingly followed.

 

The "foppish" nature of the EC came from the fact that, unlike most SM legions, they were not solely concerned with warfare. Not only were their battle tactics and combat skills honed to perfection, but their armor and weapons were expertly artificed and meticulously cared far. Their company banners were beautifully created works of art. The halls of their ships were decorated with flowing banners, paintings and statues. Their warriors were encoraged to learn music, poetry, and art. To read literature. They strove for perfection in ALL things.

 

You could obviously see why this could be seen as "foppish and decadent" by more practical SM legions/primarchs, like Mortarion or Angron.

 

Additionally, if you take the Black Library books as cannon, this push for perfection is what helped accelerate Fulgrim's downfall. While he was a primarch, he wasn't the best at everything. He wasn't perfect. At one point he tries his had at sculpture, and is mentally anguished at the fact that the works he creates, while apparently perfect representations of thier subject, lack the same feeling of life seen in the works of a human scupltor. How could he, a primarch, not be the equal of a lowly human.

 

As others have mentioned, this push for perfection later transformed into their continual search for the perfect/greater sensations as servants of slaanesh. What they don't fully explore is that the so-called "noise marines" are only one facet of this quest for perfection, representing those who wish for heightened audbile sensations. I would expect other EC to be equally enraptured with touch, sight, taste, etc.

 

Foehammer

[Drakelet]

That's made me think of something - Would post-heresy Children still read and paint and sing etc? It doesn't sound very Chaosy, although it would make sense IMO.