Emperor's Children About "Perfection?!"

[Foehammer888]

That's made me think of something - Would post-heresy Children still read and paint and sing etc? It doesn't sound very Chaosy, although it would make sense IMO.

It all depends on what you mean by "paint" and "sing"

 

By singing they would likely use mechanical devices/instruments and physical augmentations to create sounds at pitches/notes which would likely be painful to normal humans and hardly called "music". By painting they would create images using amazing garish colors (or even human body parts) which no normal person would think of as "art".

 

Basically, they have become so obsessed with extremes of sensation that images/sounds/tastes/tactile sensations which a normal person would enjoy or be emotionally affected by would basically be "white noise" to an EC. They need extremes. Extremely bright colors, extremely loud/high pitched noises.

 

Foehammer

[Falk]

Is mentioned anywhere what happens if even the deaths on the battlefield and all that fun doesn't give them much pleasure anymore ?

 

I guess most of them eventually die before they can reach that state, but anyway, would they start to mutilate themselves*, each others, or go crazy ? Or could they loose "faith" in Slaanesh and start worshipping another dark god ?

 

*Isn't it a unexploited part of the whole Slaanesh deal by the way ? It looks like they get much more pleasure by giving pain to others, than receiving pain, or it's just not much talked about as it's not very relevant to the game.

Or am I mixing the EC psyche with the Dark Eldar psyche too much ?

[Foehammer888]

Is mentioned anywhere what happens if even the deaths on the battlefield and all that fun doesn't give them much pleasure anymore ?

 

I guess most of them eventually die before they can reach that state, but anyway, would they start to mutilate themselves*, each others, or go crazy ? Or could they loose "faith" in Slaanesh and start worshipping another dark god ?

Luckily, in the warp-twisted reachs of the eye of terror, limits on these sensations don't really exist. Reality is twisted allowing things which are not normally possible. The chaos gods want to retain their servants, so if a particularly powerful EC reachs this point, Slaanesh dangles something new in front of them. Perhaps some greate quest (sacrifice 10,000,000 souls) or something similar to be gifted by slaanesh with some new level of pleasure/sensation. Perhaps elevation to daemonhood.

 

Then again, as with all chaos servants, there are only 3 ends to the path

- daemonhood

- death

- Spawn

 

*Isn't it a unexploited part of the whole Slaanesh deal by the way ? It looks like they get much more pleasure by giving pain to others, than receiving pain, or it's just not much talked about as it's not very relevant to the game.

Or am I mixing the EC psyche with the Dark Eldar psyche too much ?

Nope, sensations in all their forms. In previous rules if a character with the MoS suffered a wound in combat, them and the unit they are with automatically passed any required morale check. Similarly in Fantasy, there is a "pendant of slaanesh" item which grants bonus attacks to the wearer based on the wounds they take.

 

They are actually more about their own sensations than those of others. They torture others in attempts to amuse themselves.

 

Foehammer

[JoeChaos]

Would post-heresy Children still read and paint and sing etc? It doesn't sound very Chaosy, although it would make sense IMO.

 

Drakelet: are you SURE you want to be a soldier for the force of Chaos? ^_^

 

Do the EC read? Well, their sorcerers “read” the often confused and chaotic prophecies of the warp before every battle.

 

Do they paint? Yeah, their bolters paint a staccato of blood across the waste lands, their blades adding additional colors from eviscerated innards.

 

Do they sing? Surely they sing the praises of the Lord of Pleasure before, during, and after every battle they fight in the Lewd One’s Name.

 

Seriously, this is a Chaos legion we’re talking about. Everything about them has been warped and perverted by the Eye of Terror and the “blessings” of their master. Foppish dandies have become garish hedonists and perfectionist tendencies have become obsessive compulsive disorder on a grand scale.

 

Really folks…put your mind in the boots of your legion. Sometimes you just don’t seem…um…evil enough. :D

[Drakelet]

Haha, yeah, good point. I know what you're saying, don't know why I asked really.

 

I think my problem is those damn Horus Heresy books. They're all during the heresy, not giving any impression of post heresy.

[JoeChaos]

I think my problem is those damn Horus Heresy books. They're all during the heresy, not giving any impression of post heresy.

 

Hmmm...I see your point. Yeah, the HH books shows the traitor legions for what they were AT THE TIME...noble, loyal space marines (not counting a few bad apples). Sure, EC was all fancy-pants, but otherwise they're described as being just as upright as any other space marine chapter (I'm thinking Saul Tarvitz here, who receives nothing but praise from the otherwise sombre and no-nonsense Battle-Captain Garro of the DG).

 

You know Drakelet...you could always build up a small PRE-Heresy Emperor's Children army...kind of show a before and after picture, ya' know? That's what I'm doing with my beloved Death Guard...I just really dig those guys (both before and after the Heresy), so I decided to put together a 1000-1500 point DG force, just for fun.

 

Not with my World Eaters, though...they were always meant to wear the red and brass of Khorne.... :D

[Drakelet]

Nope, I want post-heresy. :) I don't want Tarvitz-style, definitely more Fulgrim/Lucius style. The books just annoy me, because they seem to... subjective. As in, everything the traitors did was for nothing, they were really selfish and that they were wrong - They don't show the other side of the argument, which annoys me. You know, the whole "the Emperor deserted us and treated us like <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>ty slaves" part.

[JoeChaos]

Well, Drakelet, I think there’s a reason they only show the…um…loyalist’s side of the story. And this goes back to some of your earlier questions about EC.

 

The fact of the matter is that when the traitor legions turned traitor, they were selling their souls and selling out the human race. There is NOTHING justifiable about their actions; fact is, they were corrupted by Chaos. I’m not saying the Emperor is some saintly guy (personally, I doubt Jesus would wage a war across the galaxy, regardless of what some might think), but turning to worship INHUMAN MONSTERS and TORTURE & ENSLAVE YOUR FELLOW BEINGS is flat out evil, by pretty much anyone’s definition.

 

We’ve already hashed out that there are different points of view of the nature of EC’s twistedness (to sum up: are they perverted perfectionists or are they perfect perverts?). But twisted is what they are: Lucius, Fulgrim…any EC still around and living in the Eye of Terror is a mutant Chaos-worshipping psychopath. He may have a cold serial killer demeanor, or he may be a raving nut-job…and they accepted this path themselves!

 

The traitor legions ARE selfish…the only thing to gain from falling to the dark side was a quick and/or easy road to power. And it was “for nothing,” as you put it: if you gain the world but lose your immortal soul have you really gained anything?

 

I suppose it’s a matter of personal philosophic perspective…like “is it better to be feared than loved?” Is it better to be known for all time as an infamous traitor (Horus, for example) or to die, un-sung in the service of humanity and the emperor (Joe space marine, for example).

 

Some “flamboyant” types (EC, anyone?) would certainly prefer to have glorious ignominy heaped upon their names rather than perishing in obscurity. ;)

 

Or perhaps you meant “it was all for nothing because Horus was defeated and the traitors beaten back.” Well, it wouldn’t have been much of a game if the traitors had won, would it? This way we get to keep the long war going. Certainly there’s more dramatic tension in the story of two equally matched rivals (like the Imperium and the Traitors) always trying to get a leg up on the other.

 

See? I’m not even saying Horus had to lose because he’s the “bad guy.” He had to lose in order to keep a decent backstory for the game 10K years later!

 

All that hooey about the Emperor deserting them, blah-blah-blah is just an attempt to humanize some pretty inhuman monsters. Space marines are pretty far removed from “normal” humans as it is…start sowing the taint of chaos and you’ve got something pretty hard to relate to (and REALLY hard to have sympathy for!).

:)

[Drakelet]

I understand why he lost, and I think it's good.

 

I still believe the Emperor deserted them though. They got pissed off and felt like being used, as they were fighting and dying for lies. Some God came along and said "hey, I can give you lots of power, let you do what you want, enjoy your life, do whatever you want, become perfect AND get back at that SOB Emperor of yours", and they agreed.

 

That's how I see it anyway. Just, then they did start getting more and more corrupt, and "evil". Although evil is subjective.

[Foehammer888]

I understand why he lost, and I think it's good.

 

I still believe the Emperor deserted them though. They got pissed off and felt like being used, as they were fighting and dying for lies. Some God came along and said "hey, I can give you lots of power, let you do what you want, enjoy your life, do whatever you want, become perfect AND get back at that SOB Emperor of yours", and they agreed.

 

That's how I see it anyway. Just, then they did start getting more and more corrupt, and "evil". Although evil is subjective.

I think the whole concept of what turned the "traitor legions" against the emperor is much simpler than who deserted/did not desert them, and who/who was not corrupted.

 

When it comes down to it, space marines were once human, and the primarchs are at least partially human. The problem being that they took "humans" and gave them a rather astronomical amount of power. As with all humans, when given that level of power, some of the primarch's / marines had the character to use it for what they thought was "the greater good" (not to use a Tau term), and other had extremely human character flaws which eventually resulted in them abusing that power.

 

When you closely examine those legions/primarchs which turned to chaos, you will see, at the most base level, things like greed, jealousy, lust for power, bitterness, and helplessness. All very human qualities. Its humanity that failed most of the traitor legions.

 

Mortarion and the deathguard- gave his legion to nurgle when, as a superhuman warrior who could overcome almost any opponent on the battlefield, was faced with a foe his combat prowess and constitution could not overcome...a virulent plauge.

 

Magnus and the Thousand Sons - greed and superiority, they were driven to acquire knowledge, of anything and everything, including sorcery. Their greed for this was so extreme that they continued to practice it dispite a direct edict from the Emperor. They thought they were superior, and they could master the forces of chaos without it corrupting them, like it corrupted others. This eventually led to them incuring the wrath of the emperor, and when faced with the prospect of losing all that acquired knowledge and power when prospero was attacked by the SW, they gave themselves to chaos to protect what they wanted.

 

Iron Warriors - bitterness and jealousy, they believed that other legions were getting the all the glory while they were doing to dirtywork. This flaw was constantly prodded by Horus.

 

Night Lords - were driven traitor by the inherent flaws in many of their recruits, who were, for the most part, criminals and crime lords.

 

Alpha Legion - once again, jealousy. They were the smallest and youngest legion, and thus basically had the "youngest sibbling" syndrome. They were driven to over achieve to competet with their older brother legions, and these overacheivements drove them to actually believe they were greater than everyone else.

 

 

On the specialist games website, there is an article for Inquisitor which describes how to run "chaos marine villans" in your inquisitor games, and it gives one of the best descriptions of what a chaos marine is like. Basically, a chaos/traitor marine is a marine who has gotten his "humanity" back. "Loyalist" marines in the current 40k universe are psycho and chemical conditioned and religiously indoctrinated to remove most semblances of humanity. They no-longer care about self-preservation, feel fear, greed, or any kind of physical attraction. These are feeling/attributes shared by almost any living creature, primal natural-programming which must be overwritten. Its when this conditioning breaks down that marines turn traitor.

 

Foehammer

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If you apply that same razor to the Loyalist Primarchs, you'll find they were all wanting in their own ways. It wasn't their humanity or their respective Inner Sins that dictated who stayed and who left; it was those who had the capability to doubt, and those who didn't hold to blind faith, who strayed.

[Foehammer888]

Well of course they are.

 

By "loyalist" we are talking about remaining faithful to an individual who is basically a xenophobic, gene-splicing, megalomaniac with aspirations of galactic domination and an obsession with humanity's manifest destiny of the stars. Basically the equivilent of almost any villian from any super hero comic, genetically engineered minions and all.

 

Foehammer

[CaptainLaevitacus]

I think the EC can be recorded in history in reference to the following song by alice cooper - Feed My Frankenstein

 

I think there are a few lines fro mthis song that describe things perfectly :rolleyes:

Well, I aint evil, Im just good lookin, Run my greasy fingers Up your greasy spine, Feed my frankenstein Meet my libido Hes a psycho Feed my frankenstein Hungry for love And its feeding time

 

In regards to the comment made by Foehammer888

By "loyalist" we are talking about remaining faithful to an individual who is basically a xenophobic, gene-splicing, megalomaniac with aspirations of galactic domination and an obsession with humanity's manifest destiny of the stars. Basically the equivilent of almost any villian from any super hero comic, genetically engineered minions and all.

 

You are correct depending on how you spin the stories there technically are no heroes no one is good and no one is evil cause everything can be spun in such a way that your army is doing the right things. Its the right thing by their point of view.

I mean take a look at the tau on one hand they are evil cause they brainwash others (vespids they stuck a helmet on one that didnt want to join and suddenly we have vespids running with tau) on the other hand their motives are for the greater good they seemingly want to live in peace and harmony.

The closest thing to good that I have been able to decipher in the world of 40k and it can still be spun in an evil way is the orks really they just want to party ...sure their version of party is bashing skulls and wrecking stuff but hey thats what they like doing.

 

My apologies I do believe i have gotten way off topic so in closing

Ill blow down your house

And then Im gonna eat ya

[Dammeron]

Slaanesh, like all of the Chaos Powers, is an extremely complex entity, composed of aspects that one might superficially regard as both "positive" and "negative" (both of which become utterly redundant concepts when dealing with the entities of the Warp). As REFUSE has quite aptly argued, Slaanesh at his/her/it's core is the conscious abandonment of all that is structured and considered "right" or "correct" in terms of both behaviour and consideration; he/she/it is the erring towards sinfulness and wanton self-indulgence, regardless of what justication one creates for oneself. Thus, those drawn into Slaanesh's worship may initially have aspirations that they consider as "high" or holy, artists, intellectuals, aesthetes and even spiritualists are all equally susceptible to the Prince of Chaos's wiles.

 

Those that truly embrace Slaanesh, however, forget or consciously abandon all notions they entertain of decency and "proper" behaviour; all experience, no matter how base, disgusting, absurd or bizarre, is equally welcome. Even those that do not consciously worship Slaanesh but take pleasure in any act, thought or experience serve to empower him/her/it, for Slaanesh is desire and the experience of gratification, so those that flagellate themselves in the name of the Emperor and take beatific joy in their self-abasement serve to fuel Slaanesh, as do those who enjoy a breath of sweet-scented air, the thrill of artistic creation or intellectual advancement.

 

Slaanesh's influence, however, like those of all the Chaos Powers, is essentially warping rather than corrosive; it serves to change or alter the perspectives of those that it infects, allowing them to consider and eventually even commit acts that they wouldn't have even dared imagine beforehand. Insofar as I'm concerned, anyone wanting to get a better handle on Slaanesh should probably read some of Clive Barker's stunning works of fiction. The short story The Age fo Desire in the collection The Books of Blood provides a detailed framework of what happens to any being whose sense of structure (mental, spiritual, moral, etc) is gradually broken down by irresistable desire, whilst the novella The Hell Bound Heart (later adapted into the film Hellraiser) is an examination of beings so lost to indulgence and extremes of sensation that they have taken to mutilating and re-working their own bodies in a manner that could make a very, very interesting basis for a Slaaneshi army, particularly from a modelling perspective.

 

The Emperor's Children, it seems, were initially drawn into Slaanesh's embrace as a result of the almost fetishistic satisfaction they took in their own self-improvement; the often painful extremes they went to in refining their stamina, strength and martial arts in comparison to the other legions finally giving way to more complex indulgences that one might regard as classically more "typical" of Slaanesh's worshippers. As a result they are now best regarded as beings that have no sense of restriction or parameters in their minds, actively seeking out experiences so extreme, so mind-numbingly perverse they exist beyond the bounds of most mortal's imaginations. To a member of the Emperor's Children, all things are essentially fodder; the universe (both material and immaterial) a vast circus or playground existing soleley for their experimentation and self-gratification.

[Aarhus]

JoeChaos: I love how you completely danced around Refuse and his well made points. Especially the part regarding HIS website and HIS article that you asked him if he read the whole thing...

 

Also, I couldn't tell through all the large amount of verbose posts here and there, but have you read the Liber Chaotica?

If you (collective, not individual you) want indepth Slaanesh (or Nurgle or Khorne or Tzeentch or Undivided...), read it cover to cover, then cover to cover again, then again after that. (I certainly have, and plan to again soon! <_<)

 

When I say this, please don't take this as offense, but as a true piece of advice:

Read what others have to say. Particularly those who disagree (or even have a differing view point, not necessarily disagreeing). It's amazing what you seem to have missed.

 

If I am wrong on all accounts, I'll graciously bow out.

(That being said, I urge all players to pick up the Liber Chaotica!!)

 

 

Cheers,

Lawrence.

[sahazel]

i think the connection between perfection and slaanesh people seem to be forgetting

is the repeated mentions of the mystic/philosopher/priest Blyake's (sp?) writings from Fuilgrim

(rather new fluff yes i know)

[sexiest_hero]

To each his own but i don't like how people have been slowly changing the ec's fluff over the years some of them were perfectionest in the hh books.. yet others were not. they were know for their beautiful ships, armor, and fighting style. Nobody said that ship is perfect at killing things they'd say that ship isthe perfect blend of art,beauty and battle, an ec in battle wasn't the ultimate killing machine. they were more like the angels of the battle field. turning every killing stroke into a work of art, yes it's perfection, but perfect as in the perfect blend of looks and skill. Even Lucious the poster boy of the ec was easly dispatched by a punch in the jaw from a death guard sm. (altough in his defence that perticular death guard could do just about anything.) Point is the perfect warrior that some craved is what led to thier downfall. they were not perfect, they were not the best and just like Lucious,

that fact is what drove them over the edge in the end.

 

But hey idk how you model your army, as long as you don't look down on those whos EC spend mmore of their time "assaulting" loyal space marines in a vile way, than honing thier bolter skills.

 

P.S. Also the fact that their demons are naked chicks and not super samari, shows what side of the fence they are kinda leaning to.

 

P.S.S Also I like when one shot somebodies IC with the "Bliss Giver" i can say. No he isn't dead, he just won a one way trip to the bed chambers.

[Rain]

I don't really understand why the pursuit of perfection is considered contradictory with decadence. As far as I understand, the EC are like the Dorian Gray of 40k yes they are charming, alluring, and refined, but at the same time they indulge in some of the most horrid actions imaginable, partially because their "perfection" makes them arrogant and leads them to think that they can do whatever it is they want, no matter the consequence.

[Gree]

The Emperor's Children Index Astares mentions perfection alot. Pherhaps JoeChaos you should read that?

[Slaaneshi Cultist]

going through my mountain of WD's

and reading alot of slaanesh fluff through the years, JC has summed up Slaaneshi forces (perfectly)

[Brother Plasticard]

Just in response to Drakelet's post meshing into general rambling...

 

Well, maybe the EC don't paint, sing, or dance, or whip, or w/e, but there are mortals who have changed to worship Slaanesh. And they might be artists that paint, sing, dance, whip, or w/e. In the cityfight codex (the one before cities of death) it states that cities dedicated to Slaanesh are hedonistic, and have monuments to pleasure and perfection at every corner (If I remember correctly...I have lost my cityfight dex, what a shame...). This would imply that there are mortals (who don't necessarily need to fight) who are very bad and naughty that do things that people don't discuss openly to very many people (or do other things such as paint, sing, dance), and in turn they seek perfection at every turn in order to get heightened senses and experiences. One of man's flaws and attributes is seeking perfection, so I can see why a facet of Slaanesh would be based on that. While they might be making very pretty music, paintings, etc. it may also be decadent to normal mortals, but pretty to them. So basically, mortals who worship Slaanesh are on a highway to hell, and they seem to be tripling the speed limit...

 

 

Aarhus, I will try to find a copy of Liber Chaotica, if I can't find one I will just buy one. Seems like a promising read ^_^

 

Cheers!

Brother P.

[sexiest_hero]

Their desire for perfection was

perverted to an obsession for ultimate bliss, and now the

members of the Legion will stop at nothing to gratify their

basest desires. Slannesh warband datasheet.

 

The end.

[Dammeron]

One of the problems with attempting to define the Emperors Children legion's ethos and its relationship with Slaanesh is that the established background has been changed quite dramatically in recent years. Whereas before they were always accoutned amongst the legions sent to pacify Horus at Istvaan V (and were subsequently corrupted to Slaanesh worship during a parley with the arch-heretic), now it seems they fell long before the Istvaan system battles were even on the radar, and that they were present on Istvaan V as one of the legions fighting ALONGSIDE Horus from the get go. There are also significant changes and "revelations" concerning Fulgrim's personal seduction to Slaanesh worship, which originally took place on Istvaan V under the direct orchestration of Horus. Now it seems that Fulgrim was possessed by a Slaaneshi daemon via a possessed daemon weapon that Horus gifted to him, and that the daemon eventually took over, all but obliterating the original Fulgrim from existence.

 

Until someone steps in and comes up with a definitive, concrete history for the legion, this sort of debate unfortunately becomes little more than a trading of semantics.

[Scadow]

Dammeron: One of the problems with attempting to define the Emperors Children legion's ethos and its relationship with Slaanesh is that the established background has been changed quite dramatically in recent years.

 

 

That it is difficult to lay down exactly when Fulgrim and Emperors Children first consulted Slaanesh, One can in Chaos Space marine codex read ” Fulgrim … first heerd the silky whispers of Slaanesh upon the world of Davin”, but in McNeill Novelen “Fulgrim” he in contact with Slaanesh through one xenos-manufactured sword recovered from a Laer temple. When the events that led to the Horus Heresy erupted, Fulgrim rushed to the Warmaster's side, attempting to reason with his old friend. Instead, Horus seduced him, playing upon his love of flawlessness to weaken Fulgrim's loyalty to the Emperor.

But the truth is it that the understanding about the event can be changed, new knowledge can show that one of their historical sources not where sow reliable as one earlier believed. It is that way history functions, one builds up an event with the material that exists, new material can give new insights in what happened.

[krispy the klown]

look people there sex crazed drug addled psychos as has alredy been stated more than ounce just go ahead and model them with dildos bongs and giutars :yes: