IA: Harvesters (Mk. II)

[Commissar Molotov]

This is the second version of this Chapter, and I'd welcome some thoughtful critique as part of my efforts to improve them. I'm not entirely satisfied with them, and in certain areas I think they're exceptionally lacking, but I'd like your viewpoints if I'm going to improve them further.

 

The Harvesters

 

’All manner of ravening beasts...’

- Inquisitor Karzac reporting on the Harvesters

 

Origins

C

hapters of the Adeptus Astartes are created utilising ancient processes that date back to before the Great Crusade. Each Chapter of Space Marines maintains its own Apothecaries, warrior-medics responsible for inducting aspirants and implanting them with the specially-designed organs necessary to become a Space Marine.

 

The degeneration of knowledge within the Imperium has led to these practices and procedures becoming ever more ritualised. In many Chapters, the implantation of organs is an almost mystical process, an apotheosis of sorts, accompanied by ritual, meditation, prayer and strict religious fasting; activities which ironically serve to endanger the success of the implantation and the purity of gene-seed. Each generation of Apothecaries pass on their knowledge to their apprentices, and mistakes almost inevitably occur.

 

The plight of the Reapers, a once-noble Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes, shows just how catastrophic these mistakes can be. The Reapers were created in the fourteenth founding from the Imperial Fists, and quickly set about their duties along the western fringes of the Galaxy. Under-strength after extensive campaigns against Ork infestations along the Segmentum Pacificus, the Chapter began to display a small but significant rate of genetic mutation. Zygotes implanted into new Aspirants were failing to develop properly, leading to Neophytes with terrible mental deformities. Many of the specialised organs implanted with the Astartes began to grow wildly out of control, the result of some slight hormonal imbalance.

 

As the Chapter was significantly depleted, these mutants were not immediately killed. Instead, specialised (and expendable) suicide-assault squads were formed, which were used to devastating effect against the Orks. So much so, that the Apothecaries began to secretly explore the possibilities of deliberately deforming zygotes to create such mutants.

 

Though originally given a degree of latitude by the Chapter Master, questions soon began to be asked by Chapter veterans as the Apothecaries became less and less stringent with regards to the selection and induction of aspirants. The Apothecaries maintained their own secretive cults within the Chapter, which prevented others from understanding their motives - or from taking steps to prevent their peculiar actions. It seemed that the Apothecaries were beginning to deliberately implant gene-seed into traditionally unfavourable candidates in an attempt to create superior (though disposable) fighters that existed only to kill before dying in a hormone-fuelled rage.

 

Inquisitors have theorised that the Changer of the Ways, the Chaos God Tzeentch (also known as Tchar, Shen and Shunch) had infiltrated the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers and had begun to influence their thinking, casually destroying millennia of tradition and debasing the precious gene-seed, created by the Emperor Himself.

 

Reconstructed reports show that, seeing something was terribly wrong, the Chapter Master attempted to bring a halt to the Apothecaries’ deranged experiments. By this time, the Apothecaries had managed to corrupt many of the Chapter, and quickly and calmly turned their deranged test-subjects upon the Chapter Master. A full-on war ignited throughout the fleet. The Apothecaries, taking the title of ‘Flesh-Smiths’, took the initiative, quickly attempting to eradicate the rest of the Chapter. They would brook no interference into their experiments.

 

The Imperial loyalists, under the banner of First Company Captain Emidio, held their ground as long as possible as fighting raged throughout the Chapter’s fleet. Enraged swarms of mutants angrily desecrated the vessels’ holy sanctuaries, slowly wearing down the defenders. Squads were hacked down by mutants, seemingly insensitive to pain and brandishing grotesque mutations. The taint of Chaos was disgustingly clear.

 

The battle lasted for three days at least; The last transmission the Imperium received was from Captain Emidio, reporting the Apothecaries’ betrayal and requesting that the Chapter be excommunicated and their deaths avenged. Since that fateful day, the Ordo Hereticus has hunted the Reapers – now dubbed ‘the Harvesters’ - for their monstrous genetic experiments. What remains of the Chapter is now ruled by the ‘Flesh-Smiths’, a cabal of Apothecaries gleefully exulting in the anarchic chaos they wreak.

 

Homeworld

H

istorically, the Reapers were fleet-based, recruiting from over twelve different worlds in three different sectors. Over half of these planets were hive-worlds. These worlds were choked with toxic waste, with atmospheres so polluted that they corroded the armoured walls of the hive cities, stretching over ten miles above the ground.

 

Hive worlds contain billions of inhabitants living beneath a steel sky. Hive gangers are tough and hardy fighters, and are often utilised as recruits for the Adeptus Astartes; the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda. Later, as the Chapter's more demented aspects took hold, the hive worlds offered rich pickings of a different kind. The hives also play host to the dregs of humanity, devolved and twisted monstrosities. Clothed in rags, caked in sores, blisters and buboes, the mutants scratch out a wretched existence, discriminated against by Imperial authorities. These unfortunate souls are mutated by their dreadful conditions, and possess a huge number of bizarre mutations - lashing tentacles, bony spikes, crab-like claws and other such natural weaponry abound.

 

In recent years, the Chapter's fleet-based nature has confounded Imperial efforts to wipe out the heretics. Fierce pogroms have been undertaken on all the worlds the Reapers recruited from in order to restore some measure of genetic purity to those godforsaken worlds. Inquisitorial reports suggest that over fourteen billion mutants were exterminated in a purge that lasted almost two years.

 

Beliefs

A

fanatical obsession drives the Flesh-Smiths in their orgy of destruction: an obsession to their Patron-God Tzeentch. They have no vaunted ambition, no desire other than to create debased creatures, hideous parodies of the Astartes, fusing the warping power of Chaos with their own despicable skills. Change is the very essence of Chaos itself, and the Apothecaries of the Astartes are the architects of that change. Their role is that of administering apotheosis, of elevating ordinary humans into ferocious demi-Gods, avatars of war.

 

Perhaps the greatest flaw of the Harvesters is the sin of curiosity. They believe that the magick of Chaos can aid them with their dark arts. The Apothecaries of the Chapter have been slowly and insidiously corrupted by the Changer of the Ways, swearing allegiance in an attempt to further their goals. Where once they were Guardians of Purity they now exist to tear down from within perhaps the Emperor’s greatest work – the Adeptus Astartes.

 

The Harvesters have become unalterably corrupted, their armour mutated by Tzeentch so that it bears almost no resemblance to the holy protection it once presented.

 

Although the Harvesters have been known to fight alongside other Chaos Warlords, their conceited attitudes and their scientific preoccupation have made them unpopular. It has been reported that the Harvesters have, on occasion, deserted their erstwhile allies if a particularly promising potential subject for their experiments presents itself.

 

Along with the experiments, the Harvesters seem to possess a sadistic streak that is never far below the surface. They exult in inflicting pain upon the enemy, whether physical or psychological.

 

They will mercilessly wipe out the populations of worlds in bizarre ‘tests’, unleashing howling packs of gibbering mutants upon unsuspecting civilian populations in an attempt to ‘weed out the weak’.

 

Organisation

N

ow, after fleeing to the Eye of Terror and pledging themselves eternally to the worship of Tzeentch, the Flesh-smiths of the Harvesters have applied their warping touch to the organisation of the Reapers. Though originally formed in accordance with the doctrines of the Codex Astartes, the Harvesters have been ravaged by their twisted experiments and now number approximately three companies.

 

The Chapter itself is broken into a number of roving warbands of varying size, each led by a debased Apothecary or a small cabal of Apothecaries. These ferocious warrior-surgeons have dubbed themselves ‘Flesh-Smiths’. The once-proud ranks of the Reapers have been all-but erased; now a small elite of Power-Armoured Troops remains. These veterans guard the Flesh-Smiths, and do so with fanatical devotion. The bulk of a Harvester force is comprised of the Flesh-Smiths’ latest experiments. Each Flesh-Smith has his own tastes and conducts his own experiments, resulting in a dazzlingly diverse array of surgically-enhanced mutants and other such abominations. Where once they lusted after the destruction of heretics, mutants and psykers, the Harvesters now welcome such loathsome creatures into their ranks. These depraved creatures are herded into battle by the Harvesters, funnelled into impossibly bloody battlefield conditions. The Flesh-Smiths have great latitude, leading their forces into battle as they wish.

 

The Flesh-Smiths maintain a small fleet; whilst not powerful, it enables the Flesh-Smiths to roam the Galaxy, looking for useful subjects for their experiments. Some of these vessels are from the Reapers’ original fleet; others are vessels captured by the rampaging hordes of the Harvesters.

 

Combat Doctrine

G

enerally, the Flesh-Smiths prefer to stand back whilst trusted Lieutenants of proven battlefield experience lead the assaults. The test subjects are almost always at the forefront of a Harvester battle-line. These debased creatures have but one desire left within what passes for their conscious minds; they exist to kill, to avenge a lifetime of suppression and brutality. Few of the test-subjects are capable of holding weaponry, instead they surge forward, intent on rending their foes with teeth and claw, if necessary.

 

Battles involving the Harvesters are without exception bloody; thousands may die on both sides, but the Flesh-Smiths care naught. Their curiosity will be sated—the next stage of their seemingly endless experiments can begin. The wretched few that survive are taken once more by the Flesh-Smiths, further altered, and set loose into battle once more.

 

The highest-ranked of the Flesh-Smiths have become mighty champions of Tzeentch. Alone among the Chapter they have been gifted with the insidious powers of magic. Able to warp the material plane and change the fundamental nature of reality, these Flesh-Smiths are able to alter their experiments with but a thought. When these mighty Sorceror-Surgeons take to the battlefield it is truly a grave day for the forces of the Imperium; these coldly rational,calculating warriors lead their armies with supreme confidence and awe-inspiring power.

 

Gene-seed

E

vents leading to the downfall of the Reapers have led the Inquisition and the Adeptus Mechanicus to question the purity of their gene-seed. It has been theorised that some inherent weakness or mutation may have been responsible for their fall. The Imperial Fists, the ancestor-legion of the Reapers, have reacted angrily to these whispered imprecations; such an insult cannot be taken lightly by any true Son of Dorn.

 

It is undeniable that Space Marines from the lineage of Rogal Dorn have always displayed a marked tendency towards self-mutilation and stubborn devotion. Since their excommunication, these traits seem to have been magnified a thousandfold. The Space Marines of the Harvesters are fanatical servants of the Changer of the Ways, and many among their number have been favoured with grotesque mutations.

 

Imperial Fists gene-seed is considered amongst the most stable of all those utilised by the Adeptus Astartes. Although the genome results in the loss of the Betcher’s Gland and the Sus-An Membrane, the lack of these organs has never hindered the Dorn’s progeny in the prosecution of their duty. The gene-seed of the Harvesters, however, appears to have been contaminated utterly, debased in the ravenous pursuit of change. Mutation seems to have become almost uncontrollable; indeed, almost all of the Flesh-Smiths actively encourage mutation, experimenting with implanting into hosts that are already mutated – a practice that would normally be unthinkable. It is difficult for the Imperial observer to discern between the hideous experiments of the Flesh-Smiths and the pernicious gifts of Chaos.

 

The Harvesters have now begun to look further afield for suitable fodder for their experiments. For countless millennia, Humanity has endagnered its genetic purity, exposing itself to all manner of carcinogens and toxins - even to the capricious power of the Immaterium. Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons have been unleashed upon whole planetary populations in a bid to impose galaxy-wide order. Such actions have had an almost inevitable effect; rates of mutation have increased exponentially among the Imperium's populace. On many worlds mutants now form an oppressed underclass, segregated and shunned, utilised as a slavecaste and interred within forced-labour camps, denied the rights afforded to - and enjoyed by - ordinary Imperial citizens. The Flesh-Smiths have gleefully taken these wretched creatures and implanted the once-holy gene-seed into them, turning them into ferocious parodies of the Astartes; their brute strength and natural mutations prove enticing, and their simple minds are easy to warp into the fanatical service of the Flesh-Smiths.

 

They prove all-too-willing to avenge their treatment at the hands of the Imperium...

[Severus6]

Well, I will be the first brave soul,...I like it. The reason I like it is simple; Flesh Smiths,...it just rolls off the tongue like blood on a spoon. Its delightfully evil; dark and twisted. A genetic twist on the Iron Hands,...the flesh is weak,...so make it stronger any way possible.

 

I like it Molotov,...I like it a great deal. The concept of tainted Apothocaries, the keeper of the Chapters future, is perfect in its simplicty. I can only hope that some of the non-tainted Chapter, The Reapers, escaped and continue to fight on,....their numbers dwindleing as their tainted brethren lose the remaining bits and pieces of their humanity, super human as it may be.

 

Severus6

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

I like it too. Nice work. It is very..."interestingly " evil, if you know what I mean, the concept of corrupted Apothecaries appeals very much. Keep up the good work.

[Tyrannicide]

You still write the best IA articles, even if unfinished, on the B&C Molotov. This one is no exception.

 

Origins

- You mentioned they were a founding chapter of the Imperial Fists. This probably could not work better, as I get the idea of the Harvesters being alike their primogenitor legion, which are known for a history of self punishment and chastisement. The Harvesters, particularly the "Flesh-Smiths", basically took this the wrong direction, and led to their degeneration of chaos.

 

- I like that they have been rumored to follow Tzeentch. To me it seems, that out of the four pantheon chaos gods, most people go for the other 3 (Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh). I almost never see any chapter, outside of the thousand sons, who serve the god Tzeentch.

 

Homeworld

- The capital letter under the home world banner, is and "H" when the sentence starts with "The".....that a small typo?

 

Beliefs

- Are the Flesh Smiths part sorcerer? Or just corrupted ex-apothecaries?

 

- On a side note......Before the Reapers committed themselves to chaos, they share many similarities with the Castigators, minus the zealots to the extreme part. Maybe they resemble each other to an excessive degree? Although I like what you've set up as their beliefs, so far.

 

Organization

- Do the Flesh Smiths share rivalries with one another? Will they unite if need be, or are they stubborn in their own agendas?

 

Combat Doctrine

- Are the only Harvesters not mutated to the fullest extent, Flesh Smiths and Lieutenants, or ex-captains? Basically I’m saying are all Harvesters mutated or only the experiments the ‘Smiths create?

 

Gene Seed

- Pretty usual for a corrupt one, but very nice job.

 

 

Future Notes

- Will there be a respective color scheme for the Harvesters? I see them in a sort of black or red, with chipped white all over, for an example of what I mean, here is a link of chronophague's IW apothecary.

 

- Is this article, going to branch out, and become a Librarium one, like the Castigators? With more detailed fluff on Flesh Smiths, their experiments, corrupted battle-captains, etc. I know its still a work in progress, just some thoughts.

 

That’s all,

Darth

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, I will be the first brave soul,...I like it. The reason I like it is simple; Flesh Smiths,...it just rolls off the tongue like blood on a spoon. Its delightfully evil; dark and twisted. A genetic twist on the Iron Hands,...the flesh is weak,...so make it stronger any way possible.

 

I like it Molotov,...I like it a great deal. The concept of tainted Apothocaries, the keeper of the Chapters future, is perfect in its simplicty. I can only hope that some of the non-tainted Chapter, The Reapers, escaped and continue to fight on,....their numbers dwindleing as their tainted brethren lose the remaining bits and pieces of their humanity, super human as it may be.

 

Severus6

 

Well, thanks. I think the core concept is a good one, although it needs work. I'm not happy with the article as is, and to my mind there's a couple of serious flaws running through it. I'm looking to substantially re-write the article until I'm happy with it.

 

I think the Flesh-Smiths are good; I've seen too many Chapters where the Librarians go insane and start killing people - I wanted something different, and I think that the Harvesters exemplify that difference. With regards to still-living remnants of the Reapers, it'd be nice, but I see it a little too much in renegade Chapters that there's a still loyal element. We see so many DIYs where people write about the half of the Chapter that went rogue and the surviving half that swear to hunt them down. I don't want to turn these guys into Dark Angels-lite, so I'm looking to try something different. I think the battle between the Apothecaries and the rest of the Chapter needs to have greater depth for it to have any significance or resonance to the reader, though.

 

I like it too. Nice work. It is very..."interestingly " evil, if you know what I mean, the concept of corrupted Apothecaries appeals very much. Keep up the good work.

 

I think the Apothecaries, with their rites, rituals and cabalistic tendencies, were always ripe to be chosen for a renegade DIY...

 

 

You still write the best IA articles, even if unfinished, on the B&C Molotov. This one is no exception.

 

Origins

- You mentioned they were a founding chapter of the Imperial Fists. This probably could not work better, as I get the idea of the Harvesters being alike their primogenitor legion, which are known for a history of self punishment and chastisement. The Harvesters, particularly the "Flesh-Smiths", basically took this the wrong direction, and led to their degeneration of chaos.

 

- I like that they have been rumored to follow Tzeentch. To me it seems, that out of the four pantheon chaos gods, most people go for the other 3 (Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh). I almost never see any chapter, outside of the thousand sons, who serve the god Tzeentch.

 

Homeworld

- The capital letter under the home world banner, is and "H" when the sentence starts with "The".....that a small typo?

 

Beliefs

- Are the Flesh Smiths part sorcerer? Or just corrupted ex-apothecaries?

 

- On a side note......Before the Reapers committed themselves to chaos, they share many similarities with the Castigators, minus the zealots to the extreme part. Maybe they resemble each other to an excessive degree? Although I like what you've set up as their beliefs, so far.

 

Organization

- Do the Flesh Smiths share rivalries with one another? Will they unite if need be, or are they stubborn in their own agendas?

 

Combat Doctrine

- Are the only Harvesters not mutated to the fullest extent, Flesh Smiths and Lieutenants, or ex-captains? Basically I’m saying are all Harvesters mutated or only the experiments the ‘Smiths create?

 

Gene Seed

- Pretty usual for a corrupt one, but very nice job.

 

 

Future Notes

- Will there be a respective color scheme for the Harvesters? I see them in a sort of black or red, with chipped white all over, for an example of what I mean, here is a link of chronophague's IW apothecary.

 

- Is this article, going to branch out, and become a Librarium one, like the Castigators? With more detailed fluff on Flesh Smiths, their experiments, corrupted battle-captains, etc. I know its still a work in progress, just some thoughts.

 

That’s all,

Darth

 

I agree that Tzeentch is certainly under-represented when looking at traitors. I think that on the whole, the other three Gods are the most easily accessible to writers. But Tzeentch seems a key candidate here - the Apothecaries are responsible for a great change, taking a man and turning them into a demi-God. Although I think that their descent to Chaos could do with being better explained, certainly. I think that a problem with many traitor IAs is that we're just told "They turned to Chaos" with no explanation. I think that because they're drawn from the Imperial Fists, there's a slight tendency towards activities that could very easily be warped.

 

With regards to the mistake I made with the 'H'... look at the dropped caps. ;)

 

The Flesh-Smiths are corrupted ex-apothecaries, but many of them have been gifted by Tzeentch. My understanding is that Tzeentch can gift magicks to those who weren't necessarily originally psykers. So some of them are sorcerors, but they were never psykers.

 

I'm interested to hear you say that the Reapers were like the Castigators, because there's actually very little information about the Reapers in this article. In truth, the Reapers were my first ever DIY, and utilising them here is... closure, in a sense. It's also an opportunity to recycle an old concept into a new, stronger, one. I'm going to detail the Reapers further, but I find it odd to hear you say that they're Castigatoresque. In a way, they are, as the Castigators, and many other Space Marine Chapters, aren't that far from those they condemn.

 

The Flesh-Smiths would have rivalries, and would unite if they saw the value of it. The only time conflicts will break out would be if their plans crossed, or, say, if two Flesh-Smiths were after a particular target for their (different) experiments.

 

I see the Harvesters as a small, power-armoured elite, the 'controllers', if you will, and then a large scrofulous tide of twisted creations. Some of the power-armoured have mutations and gifts from Tzeentch, but I think from a visual aesthetic, most of the really creepy stuff would be on the test subjects. ;)

 

There will be colour schemes for the Harvesters, yes. I've been discussing it with Scally, and I need to come up with ideas. I often see colourschemes as relatively superfluous - unless they contribute to the theme, they contribute nothing to the theme, and can be left until the end. Often you see people who focus on the colour scheme first, and have no background. Which is fine, I guess - it just shows that they're approaching the concept from another angle, but it's not one I favour. I'm looking for something suitable, I suppose.

[krieger haggoroth]

My first thought with this chapter is: "As soon as the chapter master got wind of something awry in his chapter, why didn't he beat down the door and investigate this cult of apothecaries?" If i was a chapter master, i would want to do my utmost to know everything happening in my chapter, regardless of tradition.

 

-Color scheme? Heraldry? The symbol for the reapers might not need to have been changed, as a reaper would suit this chapter just fine. As far as a colorscheme, i imagine something slapped together looking. The Flesh Smiths are more concerned with the flesh, not armor after all, and painting it at all might be something of an afterthought to them. Maybe something white, to link the chapter more closely with their Apothecary roots?

 

-

Now, after fleeing to the Eye of Terror and pledging themselves eternally to the worship of Tzeentch, the Flesh-smiths of the Harvesters have applied their warping touch to the organisation of the Reapers.

 

How did the chapter manage to get a world in the Eye of terror? From he available fluff, it seems like all of the Legions are constantly fighting over available worlds in the eye, and it seems as if a single, mauled chapter would be able to make few gains here.

 

generally, the Flesh-Smiths prefer to stand back whilst trusted Lieutenants of proven battlefield experience lead the assaults.

 

I dunno, it seems to me that the flesh smiths would be a bit paranoid about trusting command to others, especially after treason was what allowed them to gain power.

 

 

What about sorcerers? Do they exist in the chapter at all? If so, what role do they play, as the Flesh Smiths are obviously the main emissaries of the Changer of Ways.

[Commissar Molotov]

My first thought with this chapter is: "As soon as the chapter master got wind of something awry in his chapter, why didn't he beat down the door and investigate this cult of apothecaries?" If i was a chapter master, i would want to do my utmost to know everything happening in my chapter, regardless of tradition.

 

I attempted to show that the Chapter master did 'attempt to bring a halt to the Apothecaries' experiments'. I just can't see a Space Marine Chapter Master kicking down the door to the apothecarion, flamer in one hand, shotgun in the other, cigar in his mouth. The thing for me is that Krieger-as-Chapter Master and Chapter Master-as-Chapter Master are two different things. The Space Marines are bound by different things, I think, and they don't always do what we would do. He couldn't act without proof - and what would 'acting' mean? When Emidius called the Inquisition down on the Chapter, it was a last resort, and I could see most Chapters trying to deal with 'problems' internally.

 

Color scheme? Heraldry? The symbol for the reapers might not need to have been changed, as a reaper would suit this chapter just fine. As far as a colorscheme, i imagine something slapped together looking. The Flesh Smiths are more concerned with the flesh, not armor after all, and painting it at all might be something of an afterthought to them. Maybe something white, to link the chapter more closely with their Apothecary roots?

 

Well, the original reapers (by that I mean the Reapers back when they were my first DIY) were a dark grey, with green shoulder pad insets. In a way I'd like to maintain that scheme for them. Since their turn to Tzeentch, I'm not sure. I often regard colourschemes as irrelevant, but in this case it's just I haven't found anything for them that I like yet.

 

How did the chapter manage to get a world in the Eye of terror? From he available fluff, it seems like all of the Legions are constantly fighting over available worlds in the eye, and it seems as if a single, mauled chapter would be able to make few gains here.

 

I didn't say they had a world in the Eye of Terror. :o

 

I dunno, it seems to me that the flesh smiths would be a bit paranoid about trusting command to others, especially after treason was what allowed them to gain power.

 

Point, but I guess I was aiming for the idea that the only Reapers left are those that are loyal to their Flesh-Smiths.

 

What about sorcerers? Do they exist in the chapter at all? If so, what role do they play, as the Flesh Smiths are obviously the main emissaries of the Changer of Ways.

 

As I said earlier: The Flesh-Smiths are corrupted ex-apothecaries, but many of them have been gifted by Tzeentch. My understanding is that Tzeentch can gift magicks to those who weren't necessarily originally psykers. So some of them are sorcerors, but they were never psykers.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm looking to expand and detail the Harvesters far more now, especially with their expanded role in the Vocates.

 

I think what's most important is detailing them pre-fall, so as to get some context and feel the full scope of their tragedy.

 

I'd be interested in feedback on them, especially given the (frankly tepid) reaction they got when I first posted them.

[Lysimachus]

especially with their expanded role in the Vocates.

 

interesting you say that, i was just reading through and i'd seen the Reapers mentioned as being part of the Vocates project but no mention above

 

perhaps (and i dont know if it disagrees with any fluff in any of the other Vocates Chapters) you could make the Reapers a very central part of the formation of the Adeptus Vocates, maybe even make the whole thing the brainchild of the 1st Reapers Chapter Master, kind of make them the ones who the other Chapters looked up to, now complete turnaround they have to hunt them down? (just thought it might fit with them being your first DIY as well!)

 

also would like to agree with everyone else and say i really like the flesh-smiths bit too!!

[Commissar Molotov]

it might fit with them being your first DIY as well!

 

Uh...?

 

Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know how much you know about the Vocates, but it was the 'brainchild' of Baraquiel, the first Castigator. He was the driving force behind all of the eleven other Oathbrethren joining the pact.

 

That's not going to change.

 

This Chapter was also created without their role in the Vocates being confirmed - hence the lack of a mention. If you've been following the Vocates thread at all, you'll notice it was only recently agreed to make them Vocates, and as such the necessary changes haven't been made.

 

It seems stupid to me to make them super uber awesome Vocates brethren, because that seems to operate on that thinly-veiled "they were awesome and now they've not!" level. The Reapers need to be more than just a thin cardboard archetype, or the fall lacks any depth. Nobody would care.

[Lysimachus]

fair enough! admittedly, i'm pretty new to the Liber and my knowledge of the Vocates project is limited to having quickly read a few of the IAs and the 'clarion call' thread (i think you started recently?) which mentioned the Reapers so i didn't realize they were newly added, my bad! :P

 

same goes for Baraquiel!

 

as to your point:

 

It seems stupid to me to make them super uber awesome Vocates brethren, because that seems to operate on that thinly-veiled "they were awesome and now they've not!" level. The Reapers need to be more than just a thin cardboard archetype, or the fall lacks any depth. Nobody would care.

 

i couldn't agree more...thankfully that wasn't what i was suggesting, although i'm new at offering thoughts on peoples stuff so maybe it came across wrong!

what i was trying to say is that (IMHO) the Reapers are better if they were valued and respected equals as part of the Vocates group in the beginning, then it adds more dimension in the way the other chapters feel about them after they turn, kind of sorrow over the loss as well as hatred for their failure

 

thats perhaps especially true in that it wasn't all the chapter who fell and some of them even fought against those who turned traitor

 

(as a side point, when Captain Emidio calls the inquisition to ask that they be excommunicated, possibly now they are part of the Vocates he'd have called the rest of the group instead of, or at least as well as, the Inquisition - kind of a 'avenge us, brothers' type of thing?)

 

anyway, i'm probably rambling and having read some of your other work i'm sure you don't need my help but i was reading the 'future of the Liber' thread and figured i needed to be a bit more pro-active in taking part. feel free to ignore everything i've said if you disagree or it doesn't fit, as i said i'm a bit of a newbie to this whole offering comments lark! :D

[Commissar Molotov]

having read some of your other work i'm sure you don't need my help

 

Well, to begin with I can only point you towards what I said in the Future of the Liber thread:

 

Wherever possible, I like to hear responses. It doesn't matter if you can't name all thousand Chapters or you're not a 'fluff God'. Firstly, the fact that you respond is awesome. It means you've taken the time to read what I've written, which is always gratifying. Secondly, the fact that you're critiquing (in however limited a capacity) means that you're thinking about what I've written and you're taking the time to engage with it.

 

If someone says "that's wrong" - even if it's not, it means that I have to defend it. That entails thinking about it. Sometimes the best thing that can happen in the Chapter creation phase is that someone critiques you. They could be wrong, but if I take the time to say "Well, actually, that's not a mistake, because...." it means that I'm thinking more about my Chapter. It might mean that there's something lacking in my article, or I'm not expressing my thoughts well.

 

I think that sort of post is fantastic.

 

That said, you caused no small amount of hilarity on MSN about my 'first DIY'! - Oddly enough, though, my first DIY was called the Reapers. They were somewhat similar; Imperial Fists successors that drew from a hive world called Celtris III. They didn't get too far, though. My second Chapter were the Martyrs of Elysius, which grew into the Heralds of Rightenousness. Then there's the everpresent Castigators, the Redemptors, the Scions of Amalath, the Sons of Khamun, the Eagle Guard, the Crimson Guard, the Contemptors and the Bendictors. :P You can read about many of them in my blog.

 

Obviously my main love are the Castigators, but the Harvesters play an interesting role in the Vocates. (Part of the reason I chose the name 'Reapers' for the pre-fall Chapter was the idea that I was 'laying to rest' the ghost of my first DIY. I liked that. The whole Reaper/Harvester dichotomy is something that appeals to me too.)

 

 

The Vocates project's existed on and off since 2006, I believe. But the Reapers are about a month old, so there's quite a disparity. We're working on this new iteration of the Vocates in an attempt to finally tie together the project and make it cohesive. So stay tuned, and there might be interesting, exciting developments.

 

I think you do have a point in saying that the Reapers' fall has more poignancy if they were a key part of the Brotherhood. But one of the reasons I didn't assign them 'Purity of Faith' was because it seemed a little clumsy to tug at the reader's heartstrings in a very obvious "they were purity of faith and now they're traitors - see what I did there?" moment. But you're certainly right that making them part of that brotherhood is important.

 

In fact, ever since the fall of the Reapers, the Vocates have maintained an 'honour Company' made up of units from all the Chapters, dedicated to hunting down and eradicating their fallen Brothers. The rage, shame and grief of the Oathbrethren is something really key. And, of course, the fact that the Reapers fell is one of the key reasons why the 'zodiac' that Inquisitor Maltheus wrote is all the more tragic.

 

The point about Emidio calling the Oathbrethren down is a good one, and one I think I'm almost certainly going to implement.

 

So thank you for your input - I hope to hear more from you soon, in my various projects and topics. :D

[Tyrannicide]

I'll give a more constructive comment later.

 

I just had an idea of another story you can write up. It can involve the Honor Company hunting down a party of Harvesters. I think it would be mighty cool, indeed.

[Octavulg]

The Harvesters

 

On the one hand, this works. On the other hand, I think of pumpkin-headed scarecrows and combines. You are probably already aware of this. There are ominous overtones as well, of course, but I just can't shake the "straw-hat" imagery. Not that I expect you to change it, mind.

 

The plight of the Reapers,

 

Personally, I don't like one-word chapter names. They make all other chapters with that word in their name seem derivative of them, whether that is actually the case or not.

 

Squads were hacked down by mutants, seemingly insensitive to pain and brandishing grotesque mutations.

 

A) How do you brandish a mutation, exactly?

:devil: Mutants brandishing mutations feels redundant.

 

The battle lasted for three days at least;

 

Personally, I think "The battle lasted for at least three days" would sound better. (I nitpick the tiny things when there is nothing big to nitpick).

 

– now dubbed ‘the Harvesters’ -

 

Why rename them? If the Apothecaries did it, why Harvesters? If the Imperium did it, why? It's not like there's anyone to get them confused with.

 

now ruled by the ‘Flesh-Smiths’, a cabal of Apothecaries gleefully exulting in the anarchic chaos they wreak.

 

Since we now know who the Flesh-Smiths are, explaining that they are Apothecaries again feels a little redundant.

 

the Imperial Fists are known to recruit from Necromunda.

 

Not strictly necessary, IMO. Kinda breaks the flow, too.

 

As another aside - are Apothecaries in charge of aspirant selection? Certainly the Deathwing short story suggests they would not be in the Dark Angels, who would probably have similar recruiting methods.

 

Inquisitorial reports suggest that over fourteen billion mutants were exterminated in a purge that lasted almost two years.

 

That's actually not that many mutants, considering that your typical hive world has a population well over fifty billion. 6 or more five worlds is 300 billion - they could easily number a trillion without too much hassle.

 

an obsession to their Patron-God Tzeentch.

 

Can you have an obsession to something? I always thought obsessions were only *with* things.

 

the Apothecaries of the Astartes are the architects of that change.

 

This (to me) makes it sound kind of like the Apothecaries of the Salamanders et al are merely waiting for word from their brethren in the Harvesters to strike. :)

 

These ferocious warrior-surgeons have dubbed themselves ‘Flesh-Smiths’

 

We know. This is the third time you've mentioned it. ;) In fact, why not simply refer to them as Flesh-Smiths whenever talking about the post-corruption Apothecaries?

 

thousands may die on both sides,

 

I take it from this that mutants are not counted in the "three companies" mentioned earlier?

 

Damn good. Very vivid, and I like it muchly. Personally, I like me some color schemes with a chapter, but you have already mentioned that you do not.

 

I enjoyed reading it.

[Lysimachus]

That said, you caused no small amount of hilarity on MSN about my 'first DIY'! - Oddly enough, though, my first DIY was called the Reapers.

 

eh...?

 

i know, i was refering to what you said earlier:

 

Well, the original reapers (by that I mean the Reapers back when they were my first DIY)

 

ooooh, hang on. did someone think i was saying this incarnation of the Reapers/Harvesters was your 1st ever DIY? :) give me some credit lads, you'd have to be blind to of looked through the Liber forum and missed Mols stuff, Castigators in particular! :P

 

anyway, was thinking about if you've chosen a Purity for the Reapers yet? just wondering how you planning to have their fall affect that Purity - will they renounce the whole idea, or what might be cool is if they were to keep it but twist it in some way so that it fits with what they believe in now?

[Commissar Molotov]

ooooh, hang on. did someone think i was saying this incarnation of the Reapers/Harvesters was your 1st ever DIY?

 

Haha, yeah, hence my confusion:

 

Uh...?

 

Really?

 

Not my brightest moment, it seems. ;)

 

With regards to the Purities, we're still working on it. I'd suggested Purity of Focus, but Barret's keen to keep that. The one we have 'spare' at the moment is 'Purity of Purpose', but I'm not sold on it just yet. We'll see. It's important to remember that the Vocates Zodiac is the work of Inquisitor Maltheus. He's the one that put the descriptions to the Chapters. The Castigators didn't wake up one morning and say "Hey, let's be Purity of Flesh!" - rather, Inquisitor Maltheus attached that description to them. So there's the chance that some Chapters might be slightly embarassed by the descriptions they've received, or they might simply not recognise it.

 

So I don't necessarily want the Chapter to fix around their viewpoint of their former purity, but it would be nice if the pre- and post-fall personae of the Chapter were linked.

 

 

----

 

Octavulg:

 

I appreciate the nit-picking, actually. (Go nitpick the Castigators to your heart's content ;)) I won't reply to some of the grammatical issues, though I agree entirely with many of them.

 

On the whole I appreciate your point about Chapter names. I think you're right and wrong. I've made many one-word names - Castigators, Contemptors, Redemptors, Benedictors... And I think the one-word name can serve as a statement of intent. (Though there was a nasty phase in the Liber where people seemed to be taking any word and adding '-ors' to the end of it.) Think of the White Scars successors - Rampagers, Marauders, Destroyers. Those are awesome names.

 

I'm aware that 'Harvester' has elements and overtones of scarecrows and combine harvesters. But to me it conjures up other images. Organ Harvesters, for example. (There's elements there of the Vidiians, from Star Trek: Voyager). Scythes, creepiness. The idea that they effectively beat the Imperium's worlds repeatedly and wade around in humanity's gene-pool. Defying every single thing they once stood for.

 

With regards to the 'derivative' issue - I really think that's personal taste. (And I'm going to be stubborn and not change it.) - I really like the Reaper/Harvester dichotomy. Name-changes normally make me sick to my stomach (the Mark of Chaos Undecided) - but I like the way that the name is a subtle change that has a huge impact.

 

Brandish:

 

. to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle.

–noun

2. a flourish or waving, as of a weapon.

 

Admittedly, I was thinking of claws and the like, which I think can be brandished, rather than... googly eyes or the like.

Squads were hacked down by mutants, seemingly insensitive to pain and brandishing grotesque mutations.

 

Good point on the redundancy of it, though. That's something I'd overlooked. Admittedly, this IA was written from scratch in twenty-four hours, though. Though that's not intended as an excuse for sloppy writing, which I try to stamp out wherever possible.

 

Good call on the hive world. I put it in because it was a nicely random number, and I like fourteen (fourteenth founding, etc.) - Darrell and I have discussed in part that the 40k universe starts falling apart when you take numbers into account - that fifty billion people exist on every hive world, and yet the Imperial Guard defending Cadia were in one source mentioned to number 500 regiments - about two million soldiers.

 

I'm planning to upscale the carnage caused in the two-year purges. Now it's going to be undertaken by the loyalist Vocates Chapters, venting their shame, rage and grief against the scrofulous tide of filth.

 

the Apothecaries of the Astartes are the architects of that change.

 

This (to me) makes it sound kind of like the Apothecaries of the Salamanders et al are merely waiting for word from their brethren in the Harvesters to strike. :)

 

A good point. Upon re-examining it, I would prefer to say 'the Apothecaries of the Astartes are architects of change.' - the idea being that the apotheosis the Apothecaries instigate is not a million miles away from the warped experiments of the Flesh-Smiths.

 

You're also right that the mutants aren't counted in the three companies. My conception of the Harvesters was a real 'Lost and the Damned' force. You have the Flesh-Smith, his embittered and elite chosen bodyguards (those that were corrupted during the Chapter war) and then a seething, near-numberless tide of debased mutants.

 

 

I like me some color schemes with a chapter, but you have already mentioned that you do not.

 

You do me an injustice!

 

I like colour schemes. I dislike the idea that colour schemes make a Chapter, or that they're vital to the Chapter. I'm completely stuck for a post-fall colour scheme for these guys. I had conceptions of greys for the Chapter itself, as that's what my original Reapers were. But ultimately, the colour scheme isn't a vital part of their character, or the core themes of the Chapter. It's a key part in completing and fleshing out the Chapter, but it's not a keystone holding the Chapter up.

[Octavulg]

I appreciate the nit-picking, actually. (Go nitpick the Castigators to your heart's content msn-wink.gif) I won't reply to some of the grammatical issues, though I agree entirely with many of them.

 

I probably will. It keeps me busy. :D

 

I'm aware that 'Harvester' has elements and overtones of scarecrows and combine harvesters. But to me it conjures up other images. Organ Harvesters, for example.

 

Oh, indeed. It has those too. It actually creates a very interesting mixed image in my mind - weird and warped mutants driving combines, watched over by their evil masters. :P

 

With regards to the 'derivative' issue - I really think that's personal taste. (And I'm going to be stubborn and not change it.)

 

Hey, I can't force you. I was more feeling for the poor bugger who names his guys the Star Reapers and has everybody think of you the whole time.

 

- I really like the Reaper/Harvester dichotomy. Name-changes normally make me sick to my stomach (the Mark of Chaos Undecided) - but I like the way that the name is a subtle change that has a huge impact.

 

Fair enough. Though in that case, you might want to include a justification for the change. One of the reasons the change in the Mark of Undivided bothered everyone is that there was no reason (besides the fact that the new name wasn't nearly as cool).

 

Good point on the redundancy of it, though. That's something I'd overlooked. Admittedly, this IA was written from scratch in twenty-four hours, though. Though that's not intended as an excuse for sloppy writing, which I try to stamp out wherever possible.

 

I personally find redundancy THE hardest thing to avoid in my own writing. I have something of an affection for certain phrases, and the less conscious I am, the more likely I am to use them multiple times within seconds.

 

A good point. Upon re-examining it, I would prefer to say 'the Apothecaries of the Astartes are architects of change.' - the idea being that the apotheosis the Apothecaries instigate is not a million miles away from the warped experiments of the Flesh-Smiths.

 

I was fairly confident that was what you meant - that the Flesh-Smiths were merely taking existing tendencies to extremes, rather than being unusual.

 

You're also right that the mutants aren't counted in the three companies. My conception of the Harvesters was a real 'Lost and the Damned' force. You have the Flesh-Smith, his embittered and elite chosen bodyguards (those that were corrupted during the Chapter war) and then a seething, near-numberless tide of debased mutants.

 

Transport is an issue then. Perhaps the Chapter fleet should include all sorts of old and battered ships they use to haul their mutant swarms about? The upper limit for a Battle Barge is three companies, so I can't see them fitting a few thousand mutants (at least not easily).

 

I like colour schemes. I dislike the idea that colour schemes make a Chapter, or that they're vital to the Chapter. I'm completely stuck for a post-fall colour scheme for these guys. I had conceptions of greys for the Chapter itself, as that's what my original Reapers were. But ultimately, the colour scheme isn't a vital part of their character, or the core themes of the Chapter. It's a key part in completing and fleshing out the Chapter, but it's not a keystone holding the Chapter up.

 

Quite reasonable. As devotees of Tzeentch, you could make a strong argument for them not having a unified color scheme. I mean - unified color scheme =/= Chaos/Change very well.

 

Everything I didn't reply to I agree with without anything particularly interesting to add. :)

[Commissar Molotov]

A collection of thoughts culled from the Vocates thread:

 

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines. (Not that far-fetched, I guess. The 3rd Ed Codex: Space Marines has a note from a Silver Skulls apothecary remarking on a Marine whose biscopea grew too much, tearing his skeleton apart. The Apothecary writes '... a number of factors made it evident that, within a controlled framework, extraneous muscle growth could prove a worthwhile endeavour, in particular with a view to the creation of more effective assault warriors.')

 

Now, at some stage the Reapers' apothecary-cult was infected by Tzeentch. The idea seemed to fit with me - the initiation, etc - the way that the Apothecaries inculcate and pass their practices down to their unquestioning apprentices... plus, the idea is that the Apothecaries are architects of change - they turn 'mere' Humans into something akin to a God of War.

 

It seems Tzeentch would be attracted to that.

 

So, working out how the Reapers were infected could be useful. Or, it could be irrelevant. I can see it in both senses, in that sometimes you just have to accept the foundation, but I can see how people would want some depth in it. Either Tzeentch managed to corrupt an Apothecary, or the Chapter accidentally selected a Tzeentch-worshipper...? Eh. Thoughts on that welcome.

 

-

 

Anyway, at some stage it appeared the Apothecaries' experiments went too far. They were deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates. (Octavulg makes the point that typically Chaplains/Tenth Company Captains are depicted as 'selecting' recruits. In which case, perhaps the Apothecaries managed to corrupt these necessary figures to further their schemes.) Picking candidates they knew would react unfavourably to the gene-seed to create these bestial figures of war.

 

My feeling is that the Chapter Master tried to censure the Apothecaries. Whatever happened (input welcome) it erupted into bloodshed. A full-blown Chapter war between those loyal to the Chapter Master and those the Apothecaries had managed to corrupt. They quickly and calmy turned their test-subjects upon the loyalists, little caring who lived or died. The idea being that the Apothecaries would brook no interference into their 'vital' experiments.

 

The battle lasted (at least) three days before all the loyalists were over-run. Still, the loyalists would've taken great chunks out of the attackers. In that sense, the Reapers were 'purged' - by the Reapers. Before he died, the First Company Captain brought the wrath of the Imperium down upon them. I originally suggested he contacted the Inquisition, but it's also now more than likely he would've called the Oathbrethren to avenge their losses - their honour.

 

Okay.

 

So... next.

 

Barret has the Battle of Thermo-Pylon E. So, perhaps the Thousand Swords were the one Chapter able to encounter the Harvesters before they fled. (Something I read before suggested the Black Watch also fought on Shamash, Barret, so... perhaps the Black Watch encountered the Harvesters, too? You're welcome to input there.)

 

[The other available Oathbrethren would likely have tried to hunt down the Harvesters too, presumably with little luck.]

 

----

 

All I know next is that the Inquisition ordered purges of all the Hive Worlds the Reapers recruited from. Twelve, I think there were - the purges lasted two years and great swathes of those considered 'impure' (and that would be down to each Chapter's interpretations, I think - I can see the AoP killing a planetary governor for being weak-minded and therefore 'impure') as they sought to vent their rage, shame and grief.

 

Then there was the second swearing, where the eleven remaining Chapters sought to re-affirm their vows to one another. But as the bonds were being sworn, the Chapters were in the process of breaking away from each other. The Honour Company was set up, but at some point the Alpha Wolves decided to opt out of it, deciding they could hunt down the Harvesters themselves.

 

 

 

 

Okay, talking on MSN with Sigismund:

 

Sigismund Himself:

the way that the Apothecaries turn is difficult

Molotov:

Not overly. Primarchs were convinced to turn for less.

Sigismund Himself:

the tzeentch connection is hard to get without other noticing

Molotov:

What makes you say that, though? (Plus, part of the point is that people DID notice - hence the Chapter Master trying to stop them)

Sigismund Himself:

I just think it would have been noticed fairly early

Molotov:

But why?

Sigismund Himself:

as you say, chaplains are involved in the selection of recruits and I think that they would notice something. the Tenth Company Captain is less dificult to corrupt bu Chaplains?

Molotov:

*A* Chaplain is involved, and that's in a *standard* Chapter - as it is, we haven't detailed the Reapers enough to say either way. Plus, the Word Bearers were corrupted. Primarchs were corrupted. Disregarding the Grey Knights (and the Reapers certainly weren't GK) you can't say any Space Marine is incorruptible.

Molotov:

It just strikes me you seem to be saying "they'd be noticed outright" - but some Chaos worshippers keep it to themselves, especially if they've got "cunning plans" (like corrupting an entire Chapter? Or perhaps the Flesh-Smiths value their experiments more... hrm...) Plus, the Apothecaries are shrouded in ritual and misunderstanding, etc, etc. Especially in some Chapters, they could almost be considered blood-priests. Part of my reasoning was the way that most Marines wouldn't have much understanding of the Apothecary-Cult, so they wouldn't be able to say outright "Ah-hah! You're a Tzeentch worshipper!"

Sigismund Himself:

it's just the suspension of disbelief

Sigismund Himself:

why did they turn?

Sigismund Himself:

how did it spread throughout the rest of it?

Molotov:

Heh, everybody seems to be throwing "suspension of disbelief" at the moment in the Liber. We happily accept Horus, but not an Apothecary? (I'm kidding a little, but you hopefully get my point.) As for why they turned, my idea was partly it's scientific curiosity. If the Harvesters are based on anyone, it's Dr. Josef Mengele, one of the Nazi scientists at Auschwitz. He performed gruesome experiments just because he was curious.

Sigismund Himself:

ah, interesting concept

Molotov:

The power of Tzeentch, the power to warp and change flesh, allowed them to continue their experiments

Sigismund Himself:

would the Librarians of the chapter sense such power being used in their Fortress Monastery?

Molotov:

But they're somewhat different to Fabius Bile (who seems to be trying to recreate the Primarchs) - the Flesh-Smiths seem to be the kids that get a paint-set and mash their brushes and turn all the colours into the unsalvagable brown gloop.

Molotov:

The Librarians? Possible-ish. I mean, in the Iron Snakes book, there's a daemon in the Chapter House and nobody but Priad and Khiron know. Plus, I didn't see them as full-blown users of Tzeentchian power until the Chapter War. Until then I saw Tzeentch as whispering in their ears, informing their ideas, slowly working to undermine them. The Chapter Master declares war, and Tzeentch offers them

Molotov:

limitless power to continue their experiments, unchallenged, forever.

Sigismund Himself:

perhaps the alarm was raised by a loyal apothecary?

Sigismund Himself:

factions within the Apothecary cult

Molotov:

That's certainly a possibility. Although with the master/apprentice issue I raised before, I think the Flesh-Smiths would work wherever possible to eliminate troublesome elements. Friendly fire is a bitch like that.

Molotov:

That said, I haven't said (and don't know, as yet) how long the Change-cult festered away within the Apothecarion

Molotov:

I mean, I've intimated before the Chapter was too focused on other matters to care about the Apothecaries until too late. In the thread I've mentioned that Silver Skull Apothecary, talking about making better soldiers?

Molotov:

If the Apothecaries go "Chapter Master, we've got forty uber assault guys that'll kill stuff good." he might go "Huh? Neat." - it serves his purposes, doesn't seem to be doing anything bad to the Chapter...

Sigismund Himself:

maybe it happens over time until the marines taking to the field are literally beasts

Molotov:

Mhmm, my idea was that once the Chapter Master realises that the Apothecaries are selecting those that aren't pure to be implanted with the gene-seed, matters come to a head. I mean, from his point of view, if needed, he could wipe out all the Apothecaries. Unlike the Celestial Lions, he has allies within the Vocates who could help him

Sigismund Himself:

how did the Flesh Smiths win?

Molotov:

Well, my thoughts were that the Apothecaries might've been able to twist certain Marines within the Chapter. If a Marine has a serious injury, say, and gets sent to the Apothecarion... Plus, I think partly in the confusion of the Chapter War they might've been able to set some of the loyalists against each other "The Chapter Master's a traitor! Attack!" and so on. Perhaps dirty tricks, akin to the Crimson Fist fortress destruction. But also, lots of mutants. My idea was that the Apothecarion is almost a discrete element, somewhere that not everyone wonders through and examines - so there might be huge cell-blocks filled with 'experiments' and the like. I also think that the Apothecarion must have a number of Chapter Serfs and Servitors -medical assistants and the like - they would be fanatical to the Apothecary-cult, perhaps. (And certainly easier to turn)

Sigismund Himself:

so the remaining warriors are now totally loyal to the Flesh Smiths, not questioning that the Imperium is hunting them and that mutants are fighting by their side? perhaps there's a second purge by the Harvestors within their own ranks

Molotov:

Perhaps, although thinking about it...

Molotov:

the Apothecaries are responsible for psycho-indoctrinating new recruits: the tutelary engines that implant information deep within the minds of new neophytes...

Sigismund Himself:

a hidden trigger to unleash the minds of monsters?

 

 

Aye, I saw that after posting. I suppose my original intended question would be what was their intent? Did they mean to do something to the geneseed or were they unaware (unlikely)?

 

A good question. I think the phrase that best applies here is 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. They started out exploring the legitimate possibilities of producing better warriors, but their curiosity (and Tzeentch) got the best of them. I figure that Tzeentch can manipulate and twist the knife a little without the Apothecaries instantly sprouting horns and having eldritch lightning crackling around them. To my mind, the Apothecaries kept a very clean, calm exterior whilst their minds were in tumult. Like a true cult, they hid their intentions and they hid their identities, slowly subverting themselves and those around them. Curiosity got the better of them. And, I suppose, a certain degree of power. They had the power to change man into God. They were Astartes, enhanced to be superior. What could stop them?

 

When the Chapter Master did try to stop them, they reacted violently, angrily - how could someone interrupt their work?

 

So I'm certainly drawing a lot of inspiration from Mengele and Auschwitz, and the Nazi experiments on Human subjects. That sense that curiosity, the power of a God, and the complete inability of anyone to stop them gave them free rein to do whatever they wanted. As the Flesh-Smiths, infused with the magicks of Chaos, that's only continued.

[TheDarkApostle]

C

H

A

N

G

E

:)

 

Be back in a min after I've read it through :)

 

TDA

[Commissar Molotov]

:blush:

 

Some people see the lure of Chaos everywhere they look... ^_^

[Commissar Molotov]

In order to detail the Harvesters further, I'd like to examine their Flesh-Smiths. I mentioned the parallel with Josef Mengele to Barret yesterday. Whilst Fabius Bile has a concrete aim and does what he must in order to further that aim, the Flesh-Smiths just do whatever they want in order to satisfy their own curiosity.

 

If anyone has any ideas, I'd be glad to hear them! ;)

[Asmodeus' Swordhand]

The flesh smiths have no aim in their experiments, but they use those experiments for a purpose right? to get more test subjects of course. I know that they experiment on whim, but imagine if one of them caught wind of the tower of amareo. what a jackpot that would be eh?

it's just an idea but it would be pretty easy to slip that in, and it would give them a sense of purpose...

[Commissar Molotov]

That somewhat goes against the ideas that I had. Look at the experiments at Auschwitz. Stitching twins together, injecting dye into the eyes of children... so on and so forth. I mean, sure, a lot of it was done with racial science in mind, but to my mind much of it was done simply because it could be. It ties into the ideas in the 'Saw' films (among others) - that humanity and civilisation is a thin veneer, and that anyone can be reduced to a unthinking monster with the right pressure.

 

The Flesh-Smiths are servants of Tzeentch - the God of Change. Change without purpose - shifting, warping, twisting, change. It runs all the way through them (as TDA pointed out so vividly :)) - they were Apothecaries, responsible for taking ordinary boys and turning them into demi-Gods. Now they can destroy whole worlds and suffuse entire planetary populations with Tzeentchian magicks - just to sate their curiosity.

 

The idea is that the Harvesters have fragmented. Each Flesh-Smith has his own line of work, and carries out whatever twisted experiments he wants. Sometimes they might work together, sometimes they might fight over a particularly promising specimen or planet. Some of them might well be interested in utilising the Blood Angels trapped within the Tower of Amareo - but I think it would be counter to their purpose to twist all the Flesh-Smiths to such a purpose.

[Yogi]

Interesting concept, one I have not read before. The whole flesh-smiths cabal is most interesting. I can imagine, assuming there are several camps and rogue individuals within the greater group that is the flesh smiths. That the experiments are not just pure curiousity but also blatant competition between groups.

 

From what you've written to me their goal appears to be altering the subject as far as possible from it's original form, in a aggressive deadly direction.

 

An idea occurred to me of for example of perhaps one rogue Flesh smith who prefers subtly over the more obvious work of his contemptoraries, and takes pleasure form planting seeds of change among other military units he encounters friend and foe alike, giving perhaps a reason for infamy and grudges..

 

Anyway I'm sure Tzeentch has a plan.

[Commissar Molotov]

Interesting concept, one I have not read before. The whole flesh-smiths cabal is most interesting. I can imagine, assuming there are several camps and rogue individuals within the greater group that is the flesh smiths. That the experiments are not just pure curiousity but also blatant competition between groups.

 

From what you've written to me their goal appears to be altering the subject as far as possible from it's original form, in a aggressive deadly direction.

 

An idea occurred to me of for example of perhaps one rogue Flesh smith who prefers subtly over the more obvious work of his contemptoraries, and takes pleasure form planting seeds of change among other military units he encounters friend and foe alike, giving perhaps a reason for infamy and grudges..

 

Anyway I'm sure Tzeentch has a plan.

 

Thanks for the feedback, Yogi. Having not detailed the Flesh-Smiths extensively I can't give you a perfect answer, but I definitely think you have a point - that some Flesh-Smiths would compete against each other, just like in any academic community. They compete for Tzeentch's favour also, which is interesting to me. But also they would be trying to prove each other wrong - but whoever wins, that victory is measured in innocent souls.

 

I think you have a point that they would want change - but change for change's sake. I took a look over the IA and saw a reference to "weeding out the weak". I think you could definitely use Fabius Bile's rules to represent a Flesh-Smith. Perhaps a particularly desperate or ruthless ally might recruit a Flesh-Smith to 'enhance' his warriors. Although I've always had those forgeworld Ogryn Bersekers in mind...