Thousand sons VS Death Gaurd?

[Battle Captin Torodin]

there has been a lot of rivalry between the new rules and chaos gods, some people preffer the 4+

invun and AP3 bolters of the thousands sons, others like the T5 and feel no pain of the Death Gaurd

 

what about you?

 

personally i like the deathgaurd

[TheWarsmith]

This is not easy. Recently I tried two units of 1k Sons and one unit of Plague marines in a 1750 game. The sons where still with me in my next game of 2000 points. I must admit that the possibility of moving 12" with rhino, jump out and fire 9/18 AP3 shots (plus the scorceror) at 12/24" due to the sons being stationary is a dream come true. Suddenly I was able to shoot down lots of annoying warp spiders in my last game against eldar. The same goes for SM/CSM killing

 

I am in the starting phase of modelling/painting two squads of each though. The T5/Feel no pain combo is really solid. The problem is that both units lack CC abilities (in a way - they are still 3+/4+ or T5/FNP) with the sons' slow movement and only one attack and the plague marines' I3 (but handy blight grenades). And because of the FNP taking plasmaguns isn't that risky either. ;)

 

IMO especially Plague marines are rock hard objective holders. They are also really difficult to kill both by shooting and in CC, especially with normal weapons. The Sons are of course easy to kill with lots of bolters, but by moving them right, and making use of the rhino as cover, they will be able to take out entire squads of SM/CSM and other 3+... Tempting...

 

Good luck!

[davidren2401]

My 2 kraks: depends on the situation. Plauge marines are solid line holders for the reasons mentioned above (un-risky plasma guns and blight grenades) but the 1k sons in a rhino are your go getters. I have to disagree with what TheWarsmith said about 1k sons in close combat. As Rocky's own coach said "it's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how much you can take and keep moving forward." Many a time has a player sent Lucius the Eternal or an Uber-Carnifex against my 1k sons underestimating their abilities. Where a squad of say Dark Reapers would fall like corn before the proverbeal scythe, 1k sons tend to absorb the damage with their invunerable saves leaving their sorcerer with Warp Time and a Force Weapon free to hit back and kill what my opponent thought would be the obvious victor with impunity.

[TheWarsmith]

Many a time has a player sent Lucius the Eternal or an Uber-Carnifex against my 1k sons underestimating their abilities. Where a squad of say Dark Reapers would fall like corn before the proverbeal scythe, 1k sons tend to absorb the damage with their invunerable saves leaving their sorcerer with Warp Time and a Force Weapon free to hit back and kill what my opponent thought would be the obvious victor with impunity.

 

Sounds like a highligh of our beloved game. I can really see your point, and will consider taking warptime for the rerolls when it's really essential to do as much harm as possible...

TW

[AkiraCho]

death guard, i love being able to get back up..

[JoeChaos]

I have a great love of Death Guard. But my preference is really just personal. Both are excellent troop choices and far surpass their cowardly Imperial counter-parts.

:)

[Vanger]

As I play have Necrons and SWs in addition to my Chaos army, so I prefer to use the PMs. They can take a lot of flak still keep going, are good at shooting and good at assault too.

 

Modelswise I love the Thousand Sons. My very first box of miniatures was a TS box.

[Artangel]

I love them both and field them both 9 times out of 10 in my armies. I would geuss there is no clear winner on "who is best" but I do find vs Marine armies or armour sv3 troops the 1K sons are just mass murdering sons of guns but as holding objectives being a meat wall the Death gaurd are the best.

[Battle Captin Torodin]

i like the PM purly for the typhus model, i love that model, i wab paint it over and over and over again lol

[genotype]

I thought this was going to be a thread about TSs fighting PMs. My buddy plays an all PM army vs. my mostly TS and the FNP and T5 win it for him every time. He also goes infantry-heavy. Which forces me to go infantry-heavier. Which is too bad b/c I like my toys :)

[Dràyhèn]

I'd recommend Thousand Sons then. If PM's are cool just because Typhus is cool, then buy and paint Typhus and treat him as showcase model or whatever you want, why not even as a different type of Chaos Lord for example. Though Thousand Sons have better looking figs and pretty equally good stats. Not even the playing-style is that different.

 

Of course Plague Marines are more tournament-wise choice, if it's effectiveness and tabletop performing you're looking for.

 

However I'd say that choose the one whom fluff you like the most. They're not that different from each other in playing-style nor stats. Both are tough in their own ways, both shoot almost equally good and both are pretty much equally effective in close combat. ;)

[sjon]

Death guard are way more resilient againts most weapons, especialy quantities of fire ower.. because their high toughness and the basically have 2 saves, TS still only 1. Also the fact DG have bp+ccw makes them have 1 more attack in CC. So even with a lower innitiaive they are still better, also I prefer a power fist over a force weapon anytime. More death guard plusses :D: Because deathguard can take 2 special weapons they are able to take on more kinds of targets, with 2 plasma guns and bolters you can take out almost as much MEQ's as TS bolters. And the fact it is higher strength you can hurt bigger things like dreads or monstrous creatures. Also a pro over the TS. TS are general better against MEQ but in general deathguard are IMHO way beter.

 

Cheers :)

[davidren2401]

And the fact it is higher strength you can hurt bigger things like dreads or monstrous creatures. Also a pro over the TS. TS are general better against MEQ but in general deathguard are IMHO way beter.

 

Cheers :)

 

Good point about Dreads there. If you are going for 1kSons this is their main weakness. A dread will make mincemeat of their transport and if it locks them in close-combat you're pretty doomed. Packing a back up psycic power like Bolt of Change is a precaution against this but it's wasteful of points IMO. I prefer using support units like deep striking termies and oblits early in the battle to eliminate these threats.

[Soulmage]

I haven't played with T/S, but I feel like the AP3 bolter is overrated.

 

Plaguemarines on the other hand. . .

 

I use PM stats to represent my Bionically Enhanced Iron Warriors. I just dominated a tournament with them yesterday. My last two games I lost 4 or less marines total out of four squads. PMs are nigh-on invulnerable!

 

Marines that stick around to shoot plasma and melta guns turn after turn are IMO much better than expensive marines that are good against PA troops and a few others, but die just the same as any other marine.

 

Anyway. . . took Best General at the tournament yesterday. Actually tied on BPs with the guy who won overall. Not sure what they broke the tie on.

[AkiraCho]

the fluff for the death guard isnt bad either, im a huge fan of their HH book.

 

im also a huge fan of their current fluff, even tho it comes in bits and bits.. no solid stories for these guys :P

[Cale]

...leaving their sorcerer with Warp Time and a Force Weapon free to hit back and kill what my opponent thought would be the obvious victor with impunity.

 

It just shocks me to no end that, despite it being explicitly outlawed in the rules, people still base their judgement of Thousand Sons on the (alleged) ability of the Sorcerer to use Warp Time and his Force Weapon to reliably take down monstrous creatures and whatnot.

 

 

You cannot both use Warp Time and use your Force Weapon to instantly slay a model in the same turn. It isn't legal. Read the rules.

 

 

That being said, I do still like T-Sons. A squad of T-Sons is going to win a firefight against a squad of Plague Marines in the majority of instances.

 

Each shot from a Plague Marine bolter is exactly as likely to kill a Rubric Marine as a shot from a Rubric Marine is to kill a Plague Marine. On top of this, Rubric Marines get the first shot, basically every time (thanks to the ability to move and shoot), and they get Bolt of Change (which ignores both the Plague Marine's armour and Feel No Pain). While the Plague Marines get plasma guns, the Tzeentch Marines' invulnerable saves significantly reduce their effectiveness.

[davidren2401]

...leaving their sorcerer with Warp Time and a Force Weapon free to hit back and kill what my opponent thought would be the obvious victor with impunity.

 

It just shocks me to no end that, despite it being explicitly outlawed in the rules, people still base their judgement of Thousand Sons on the (alleged) ability of the Sorcerer to use Warp Time and his Force Weapon to reliably take down monstrous creatures and whatnot.

 

 

You cannot both use Warp Time and use your Force Weapon to instantly slay a model in the same turn. It isn't legal. Read the rules.

 

 

And yet the Chaos Lord's primer on this very forum endorses it. I digress tho, I'm not going to highjack this thread to revive an old debate.

[AkiraCho]

i think over all the death guard have more survivability against other armies, and even against TS, the FNP rule is just too good to pass up, the inv save thousand sons have can be supplimented by cover, the bolters dont matter against most armies, but T does.

[Cale]

I still don't think people give the T-Sons enough credit for the ability to move and shoot.

 

Ultimately, Plague Marines need Rhinos. They're too expensive to just stand and shoot at 24", and they lose shots while they spend time advancing.

 

Thousand sons, though? They don't need Rhinos. Rhinos can be good for them, but they move every turn and never lose shots. Rhinos aren't even necessary.

 

Sure, they may not be moving as fast, but moving every turn more than makes up for not moving fast. They get where they're going as reliably if not more than regular marines and they deal damage while doing it.

 

I certainly do like Plague Marines, but to say, T:5 and FNP are better than a 4+ invulnerable (duh) and AP:3 bolters don't quite make up the difference (perhaps) is missing a big part of the deal.

 

I mean, people bring up Blight Grenades all the time, yet hardly anyone mentions Slow and Purposeful. Blight Grenades are kinda neat, but S&P is awesome. It seriously increases the effectiveness of Thousand Sons.

 

Regardless of which is ultimately the better choice, any comparison which fails to take S&P into account is basically not worth noting.

[the jeske]

no rhinos ?? but they would get owned by all skimer armies . they would just stay out of 26/30" range at shot with scater lasers/rockets etc? 1ksons would never reach them . also in a world where most sm armies are full of sniping minimax , the 1ksons drop to 1d6move very fast and then SaP is no longer so awsome. the hvy bolter devi hurt them a lot too . their good side is that they dont have to fear small rending units or single kamikaze IC . but thats not enough . if oblits get downed fast or are in a deep strike . a 1ksons list may have huge problems with mech/skimer lists.

 

to put it simple . DG are a all comers , always good unit . 1ksons are ok , great against meq , if they get in to range . but while few things can be done with feel no pain and t5[save the normal las/RL stuff] , the 1ksons die like normal marines and for units that cost so many pts . Its not good enough.

[Cale]

What are you talking about, Jeske?

 

Sure, any unit on foot is going to have trouble dealing with Skimmers which can move and fire on them from out of their range.

 

But are Plague Marines any better at dealing with Skimmers than Tzeentch marines? No. Just the opposite, in fact.

 

Thousand Sons have a 24" assault anti-tank weapon. They are far better equipped to engage and deal with skimmers than Death Guard, who have nothing that hits beyond 24 inches--and who can't ride a Rhino up, dismebark, and then fire anything beyond 12". If you're looking at units who have trouble dealing with skimmer armies--or anything else that moves and shoots well enough to kite effectively--Plague Marines should just about top your list. They can't respond to that sort of thing at all--but Thousand Sons can.

 

Sorry, Jeske--that argument falls right on its face.

[Leethal]

While the 1k have their lovely little 4+ and their bolters, they can be a nice little meat shield in some cases. DG are probably better suited at being meat shields, but still. I field a Deathwing army, so AP3 bolters don't really faze me, 4+? I don't really care anything that peirces Marine armor, besides the rending guns, and lascannons are much better suited at shooting da big ones. Deathguard on the other hand, I had Deathwing terminators stay locked in combat with these freaks for 2 to 3 turns on average. 10 power weapon attacks can only do so much against the Plague Marines.

 

PM is every Chaos players dream. They can slow down Terminators, they can even hold up a horde army, they can take lots of punishment and keep on going. The PM are the best things Chaos can buy.

[Soulmage]

I agree. . . I also play Deathwing and I would LOVE the opportunity to go up against TS! All those AP3 bolters they paid so many points for would be absolutely useless against me!

[Battle Captin Torodin]

the death wing do seem to be the main weakness of the 1ksons, you've got AP3 bolt guns, so what im a walking tank

 

mwah ha ha har

[the jeske]

What are you talking about, Jeske?

 

Sure, any unit on foot is going to have trouble dealing with Skimmers which can move and fire on them from out of their range.

 

But are Plague Marines any better at dealing with Skimmers than Tzeentch marines? No. Just the opposite, in fact.

 

Thousand Sons have a 24" assault anti-tank weapon. They are far better equipped to engage and deal with skimmers than Death Guard, who have nothing that hits beyond 24 inches--and who can't ride a Rhino up, dismebark, and then fire anything beyond 12". If you're looking at units who have trouble dealing with skimmer armies--or anything else that moves and shoots well enough to kite effectively--Plague Marines should just about top your list. They can't respond to that sort of thing at all--but Thousand Sons can.

 

Sorry, Jeske--that argument falls right on its face.

well maybe because am thinking about army builds . If you use 1ksons without rhinos skimers can always stay out of range . now with DG rhinos are a must , this generaly means that you 24" of movement before they get poped and turn in terrain , so the effective range for DG is 36" . this means that a)small skimers have problems with geting out of the range unless they boost [but no shoting so its a win/win situation for the DG build]. ;) unless one plays with circus eldar , anti minimax squads [dakka preds/devis with hvy bolters /sobs with hvy bolters etc] can be engaged with fewer loses also thanks to 2 specials per unit you dont have to fear the your opponent is just going to block line of sight with rhinos . c) the anti tank weapon of 1ksons is a psychic power . this means it can be stoped with psychic hood , one can fail at casting it . also its only one shot . this means you can always count on it to shake a tank .

 

 

1ksons cost more pts then DG. this means a DG build is full of units build to cope with skimers ant tanks. min termis squads and oblits etc .Sure 1ksons can have it [or else would be as playable as in the last dex], but they have fewer of those . Also DG units can be smaller and still effective 7 man or even 6 is still ok . now the 1ksons need 8 or more to be effective . For they may be ap3 , but still hit and wound like normal bolters .also enemy in cover screws 1ksons realy bad . they are great on lave boards and high ways of death , I give you that.

 

As others said , you can also face a Wing type army in the first/second turn of a tournament and bam . Auto lose . Death korps of krieg . again the same . chased out of the board with hellfire shells.