Thousand sons VS Death Gaurd?

[AkiraCho]

however with death wing you are outnumbered by thousand sons who have spells that can sitll deal with you just the same.

[Artangel]

I haven't played with T/S, but I feel like the AP3 bolter is overrated.

 

AP3 bolts overated!!!! are you on drugs and if not why not:).

 

Both Death gaurd and 1k sons are great troop choices but vs Marine armies AP3 bolters win hands down imho I have lost count of how many times my 1k sons have just decimated standard Marine troops.

[Brother Nihm]

...leaving their sorcerer with Warp Time and a Force Weapon free to hit back and kill what my opponent thought would be the obvious victor with impunity.

 

It just shocks me to no end that, despite it being explicitly outlawed in the rules, people still base their judgement of Thousand Sons on the (alleged) ability of the Sorcerer to use Warp Time and his Force Weapon to reliably take down monstrous creatures and whatnot.

 

 

You cannot both use Warp Time and use your Force Weapon to instantly slay a model in the same turn. It isn't legal. Read the rules.

 

 

And yet the Chaos Lord's primer on this very forum endorses it. I digress tho, I'm not going to highjack this thread to revive an old debate.

FIY it no longer endorses it, after Cale pointed the mistake out to me,

 

Another thing, why in the nine hells are people getting riled up over it?

You can't fault Chaos players young or old for this (common) mistake. 40K players have always been told that new rules trump the old.

Yet for this case, the Force Weapon's restriction is still in place, something which depending on interpretation, is confusing to many.

 

It's the unstoppable force vs the immovable object all over again - and let's face it, GW's forte has never been writing clear and concise rules, in context.

If only they had a reliable and updated FAQ system in place..

 

A rule shouldn't be open to interpretation, it should be an absolute.

 

 

As for the topic at hand, I prefer Deathguard over TSons any day, here's why.

I'm using them as objective takers and anchor units - to secure tablequarters, I think that they excel in that role. Takers - Something the Sons have trouble doing due to their slow movement (I always walk behind Rhinos). The Blight grenades, toughness and FNP is where the beauty is.

Weapons become more or less irrelevant when your DG refuse to die to standard attacks.

 

My 2 Kraks.

[Cale]

FIY it no longer endorses it, after Cale pointed the mistake out to me,

 

Another thing, why in the nine hells are people getting riled up over it?

You can't fault Chaos players young or old for this (common) mistake. 40K players have always been told that new rules trump the old.

Yet for this case, the Force Weapon's restriction is still in place, something which depending on interpretation, is confusing to many.

 

It's just me. I'm wierd like that. Sorry.

 

Thanks for changing it, anyway, though.

 

As for the DG vs. TS: I do ultimately agree that the DG are better. I just don't really think that the Thousand Sons are all that much worse. I don't really think they get the credit they deserve.

[the jeske]

Well on a tournament you either play with the best set up or with some black horse meta army. 1ksons arent good at both . Maybe against new players who dont know how to use terrain and build flexible lists with sm/csm , they good do realy ok . But then again such players can be beaten with pretty much any tournament army, so no fun in that.

[genotype]

To repeat my flogging my own dead horse, what, in general, would you all advise for TS vs PM in a game?

[Soulmage]

I haven't played with T/S, but I feel like the AP3 bolter is overrated.

 

AP3 bolts overated!!!! are you on drugs and if not why not:).

 

Both Death gaurd and 1k sons are great troop choices but vs Marine armies AP3 bolters win hands down imho I have lost count of how many times my 1k sons have just decimated standard Marine troops.

 

 

Don't get me wrong. . . I'm not saying that AP3 bolters aren't good. . . I'm just saying that for what you are paying vs. what you get for a T/S versus what you are paying versus what you get for a PM, PMs are the better deal.

 

It was once said that the primary job of any warship is to stay afloat. Similarly, the primary job of a marine is to stay alive so it can continue to influence the outcome of the battle. A PM with a bolter or plasma gun that is blasting away at your foes is INFINITELY more powerful than a dead T/S marine, who cost a lot of points. . . but is only marginally more survivable than a stock marine.

 

40k isn't necessarily about who can decimate the opponent's army. . . (although some people play it that way. . . these are the people who lose at tournaments). 40k is about who can achieve the scenario's objectives with the proper economy of force.

[Jayz]

well guys i must say I love TS love the model and love the magic and the Ap3 bolter's. But they have major down sides; the don't have any other heavy weapon options besides sorcerer upgradeand they are slow ass heel but put them in a building and no one will comenear you. But these sorcerer upgrade can be awesome. and combining wind of choas with warptime will make any unit think before they charge your ass.

 

I know DG or Plague marine's are awesome T 5 against moust weapons and the 50% life or die rule is amazing. But they can still be instakilled by any S8 eapon on the field and then the Inv save from TS comes in handy I would walk my guys across the table witha vindicator breathing down my neck anyday. doing the same with your nice plague marine's is asking to be killed out right. I must agree that in moust cases the T5 is a blessing that and feel no pain makes for amzing survability To be honoust I can't find the real down side of the plague marine besidethe low Innitiative which means you are a dead man when you are facing a khorn army or any high I army like Dark Eldar who have enough S and attacks to eat trhough the T5 anyday.

 

just my 2 pence in

 

btw my first post on the forum :lol:

[Primarch Naogedd]

I really, Really, REALLY hate that so many people think that FNP is just another 4+ save. When you are fighting a close-combat power unit (That damn DA 3-PW+Techmarine and IC command squad as well as our own 4-LC Chosen squads come to mind) the Death Guard die. By the dozen. If they try to gun at them, then they might get 1 turn of fire, of which the only things that will do anything are the plasma guns, then 1 turn of rapid fire, then death. The only saving grace against guys like that is the +1 toughness, but there are just too many PW attacks. In that case, the survivability of the DG gets reduced to almost the same as CSMs. When you have TS, you can gun at them while moving back, ignoring their saves, causing casualties, plus firing Doombolt of BoC if you have it. They will catch up eventually, 2, 3, turns if you get average rolls, but by that time you can thin their numbers and when they charge your 4+ invulnerable comes in real handy. They will die approximately half as fast as your average CSM, and your Sorcerer could hammer away with his force weapon until either they die or he dies.

 

Which one is better really depends on how tough your opponent is. If you are playing against Orks, Death Guard. If you are playing against marine or marine-equivalent, Thousand Sons.

 

Naogedd out.

[the jeske]

(That damn DA 3-PW+Techmarine and IC command squad as well as our own 4-LC Chosen squads come to mind

and how does that happen ? how do those single units even get in to HtH with the PM ? they jump out of the rhino/drop pod or god forbid foot slog and then what ? lash +9 oblits dead unit . or they run in to a counter unit of your own . or you line up your rhinos properly and snipe does power weapon guys with oblits . 1ksons are not as effective as the PM . sure they have an inv and ap 3 bolters [what is ok if they only have to shot at 4T units and somehow your opponent allows your 1ksons in to the rapid fire range and has no cover etc] .

 

In that case, the survivability of the DG gets reduced to almost the same as CSMs.

eee no . its not the same . do the math.

[Primarch Naogedd]

and then what ? lash +9 oblits dead unit

I dont know about you, but there is no way in the Nine Hells and the Infinite Layers of the Abyss and the Endless Wastes of the Warp that I can squeeze 9 OBLITERATORS in my army. 9 oblits means 675 points, and there is no way in hell I could use 9 of them. If you have that many points to spend you could, instead, field, I dunno, say, any two special characters and a full-sized, fully upgraded Terminator squad. Or maybe a full Terminator squad, a land raider, and a 4-LC chosen squad for assassination. Or, hell, a land raider phalanx.

 

In that case, the survivability of the DG gets reduced to almost the same as CSMs.

eee no . its not the same . do the math.

 

I did. Against anyone with a power weapon, the only difference between plague marines and normal CSM survival rate is that they have to roll a 5+ instead of 4+ for wounding. In case you did not read my previous post that you quoted, you do not get FNP when engaged by power weapons. And really, that extra toughness is going to do wonders against the (to me) more and more common powerfist.

[the jeske]

Or maybe a full Terminator squad, a land raider, and a 4-LC chosen squad for assassination.

that is slow and blows up fast and hth termis die to the other armies hth units[harlis , genestealers ,IC].

 

any two special characters

only the chaos specials kind of a suck , compering to a lash prince or a MoT DP with warp time.

 

9 oblits means 675 points, and there is no way in hell I could use 9 of them.

it fits in 1850. it fits so well that the list with PM , double lash prince and oblits cost the exact number of pts . Maybe the guys really did test it this time ,but knowing how Gav works I think I dont believe in that.

I did. Against anyone with a power weapon, the only difference between plague marines and normal CSM survival rate is that they have to roll a 5+ instead of 4+ for wounding. In case you did not read my previous post that you quoted, you do not get FNP when engaged by power weapons. And really, that extra toughness is going to do wonders against the (to me) more and more common powerfist.

hmm ok , I only care to ask this . where are your counter units ? why arent you using lash to move the uber HtH units back [and saturate them with oblit fire ] ? even without that wounding on +4 and on +5 is something totally different . I do agree with you that PM do have they suck moments [against rending units or generally against eldar] . but 1ksons are not better [i would even say worse] against those armies . Sure 1ksons dont die so easily against genestealers or harlis , only the real power of both eldar and nids are tons of mulit shot weapons and those are a true bane of the 1ksons . a pm squad may survive more then a turn or two of intense dakka fexing , the 1ksons dont .

[Primarch Naogedd]

Or maybe a full Terminator squad, a land raider, and a 4-LC chosen squad for assassination.

that is slow and blows up fast and hth termis die to the other armies hth units[harlis , genestealers ,IC].

 

any two special characters

only the chaos specials kind of a suck , compering to a lash prince or a MoT DP with warp time.

 

I am just saying, that for the points of 9 oblits, you can get a hell of a lot of other stuff, that might actually work just as well. For 9 oblits you could get 2 land raiders plus change, or 3 land raiders and owe some. That is 4 or 6 twin-linked lascannon shots, and 6 or 9 twin-linked heavy bolter shots, plus you could cut rhinos for your assault squads and stick them inside.

 

I only care to ask this: why arent you using lash to move the uber HtH units back [and saturate them with AP3 bolter fire] ? without that save or no save is something totally different . I do agree with you that TS do have they suck moments [against pierce-both, generally against necrons]. but PMs are not better [i would even say worse] against those units . Sure PMs dont die so easily against warriors, only the real power of both pariahs and lords are tons of double-pierce weapons and those are a true bane of the PMs. a TS squad may have chances to be able to counter the save and take a few down , the PMs dont.

 

Right back atcha, reworded and with different examples but in the same vein.