IA: Dark Claws

[Commissar Molotov]

Dedicated to Utilityzero: :tu:

 

 

 

 

The Dark Claws

 

 

Origins

The Dark Claws Chapter of Space Marines were created during the fifteenth founding of the Legionnes Astartes from the gene-seed of the White Scars. The Chapter has inherited the same savagery and similar methods of rapid warfare, harrying their foes and withdrawing before the enemy can respond.

 

Terrifying and sinister, swathed in arcane totems and ju-jus and swearing allegiance to the dead heroes of years past, the Dark Claws can be found wherever the fighting is thickest, rejoicing in the slaughter and offering swift death to all those who oppose the will of the Emperor.

 

Homeworld

The Deathworld of Kal Tunivor is the fourth planet in its system. Small and wet, large tracts of the planet are over-taken by fast-growing forests which grow quickly within the slow-moving waters. These giant swamps characterise most of Kal Tunivor; The air is heavy with moisture and the planet plays host to a large and diverse ecosystem. Muddy, coastal areas are dominated by the forests. Other portions of the swamp are fresh-water, and some vegetation can be grown or harvested.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/TAND.jpg

Chapter Symbol

It was, in part, this ecosystem which brought the Imperium to Kal Tunivor, in the hope of finding worthwhile sources of food for nearby worlds. This dream quickly collapsed when it was discovered how difficult it is to live in a world of swamps. The dominant tribe on Kal Tunivor are known as the Makoro. Living in stilted villages within the trees and travelling by boat, the Makoro have colonised much of the planet and live in small, semi-nomadic tribes, surviving mainly through agriculture and fishing.

 

Large lizard-like creatures, known as the Asmat, also inhabit the swamp. It is easy for these large creatures to overturn the canoes of the Makoro and feast upon the tribesmen. As a result, the Makoro carry wide assortments of knives, spears and harpoons in an attempt to fend off the Asmat. Many different species of insect also thrive in the swamps of Kal Tunivor, and all but a few carry dangerous diseases capable of killing a man in hours. For the people of Kal Tunivor, merely the act of living a few years is a remarkable feat. Great respect and tribute is paid to the deceased, who are said to watch over and guide the living.

 

Beliefs

The Dark Claws have a complex belief system; It is immediately apparent that they adhere to many of the beliefs propogated by the White Scars. However, the native population of Kal Tunivor have long engaged in complex practices of ancestor-worship, and these practices have been also been absorbed into the Chapter Cult of the Dark Claws.

 

Numerous accounts of the Dark Claws have been filed by members of the Inquisition. These tales almost invariably describe the warriors as dour and serious, which could perhaps be a legacy derived from their gene-parents in the White Scars. Such a reputation is doubtlessly perpetuated due to the grim and forbidding appearance of the typical Dark Claw battle-brother. Their armour is typically adorned with many amulets, charms and totems. Their faces are criss-crossed by labyrinthine patterns of self-inflicted scars, and each Brother carries terrible weapons.

 

It would, however, be a grave injustice to dismiss the Dark Claws as ‘primitive’. The Chapter is certainly intensely faithful, and this intricate system of belief pervades every single thing that they do. The cult of the Dark Claws believes the Emperor to be a distant deity, concerned solely with great battles against the Chaos Gods which rage across the multi-faceted planes of existence within the twisted realms of the immaterium. In order to gain His attention, spirits must be coerced into intervening on behalf of the living.

 

Every Marine is said to be accompanied by his own spirit, who is almost invariably the Marine whose gene-seed provided him with the organs that were implanted during his initiation. A Marine has a special, symbiotic relationship with that particular spirit; indeed, every Marine carries a small cloth pouch containing ground bone, taken from the bones of his spirit-brother. The Chapter lore tells that it is important for a Marine to honour and respect the wishes of his spirit, and where possible to provide him with aid in the afterlife.

 

The ancestor’s positive disposition towards the living is important; indeed, the Dark Claws believe that keeping their spirit-brothers appeased will ensure good luck in battle, encouraging the spirits to intercede on their behalf. On occasion, a Marine will ask his ancestor for special favours or for assistance in battle. Trophy-taking is a tradition that enjoys great support within the Chapter. The swamps surrounding the Chapter’s fortress-monastery are littered with offerings to the spirits, which are ritually broken and then thrown into the murky waters. These offerings range from weapons to entire armoured vehicles, their broken metal skeletons slowly corroding.

 

 

The Chapter observes the Feast of the Emperor’s Ascension with great solemnity. It is believed that on this day each year, all Marines are able to openly commune with their ancestor-spirits. Every Brother builds his own private altar and makes offerings to his spirit-brother. The intent of this ceremony is to ceremonially strengthen the bond between the living and the dead. It is said that on this day, the ancestors return to visit their living brothers, listening to the prayers and the stories of the living.

 

The armoured pauldrons of the Dark Claws are adorned with a snarling, atavistic face which brings terror to their enemies. This bestial visage adorns many of the Chapter’s transports. Quite what role this creature plays in the belief system of the Dark Claws is a question that Imperial scholars have never been able to answer.

 

Organisation

The fighting forces of the Dark Claws are organised into ten Brotherhoods, a legacy taken from the White Scars. Each Brotherhood is responsible for its own recruitment. The Librarians, Chaplains and Apothecaries spend great amounts of time ensuring that recruits are suitable; a potential aspirant may show every indication of becoming a promising neophyte but may be abruptly rejected if the spirits do not give their approval. These ten brotherhoods are roughly equivalent to a Company within a more orthodox Chapter, and are typically based around a core of well-equipped Tactical Squads mounted in Rhinos or Razorbacks.

 

The Chapter’s Librarians maintain the traditional title of ‘Stormseer’. Within the Chapter, Stormseers are afforded great respect as they are said to be able to commune with the spirits at all times, thereby guiding the Chapter in an appropriate course. Few decisions are made without consulting the spirits for omen, and Captains often turn to the Seers when they require guidance.

 

The Chapter’s Librariam is an old, immense structure, housed within the depths of Kal Tunivor’s swamps and sited upon ancient lines of power which are said to be conducive to the spirits. The Librarium houses the knowledge that the Chapter has acquired over its millennia of service. Unlike many Chapters, however, the majority of these tales are kept alive as part of an oral tradition. The Stormseers often embark upon meditative trances where they seek to commune with the spirits, thereby keeping the tales of old alive.

 

Upon the battlefield, the mastery of the Librarians is both fearsome and awe-inspiring. Calling upon the spirits to aid them, these psychic warriors are capable of manipulating the energy of the warp and tearing through the Chapter’s enemies. The Librarians often advance into battle, wreathed in a corona of unnatural warpfire, followed loyally by the arrayed forces of the Dark Claws, determined not to dishonour the ancestor-spirits.

 

Combat Doctrine

The Chapter has maintained the White Scars’ propensity for vicious, lightning-fast raids, although these assaults are typically conducted with the use of assault squads rather than bike-mounted troops. The Chapter typically attacks without warning, penetrating deep into enemy lines before launching a vicious and crippling close-range assault. The greatest honour within the Chapter is to be inducted into one of the elite Assault Squads; all among the Dark Claws dream of dropping from the sky upon an unsuspecting enemy, rending them limb-from-limb and gaining much honour for the Chapter. The Chapter displays an affinity for short-ranged flame weapons and power axes.

The Chapter fights with a primal ferocity that has gifted the Imperium with countless hard-fought victories throughout the Imperium. Trophy-taking is an encouraged practice, and it is not uncommon for the severed hands of an enemy or other such fetishes to adorn the armour of a Marine.

 

Gene-seed

The Dark Claws are drawn from the geneseed of the White Scars, and this gene-legacy is evident. It has been intimated by members of the Ordo Hereticus that Chapters descended from White Scars gene-stock are consumed by a barbaric ferocity and a callous disregard for due authority. Such seemingly outlandish claims have never been verified. It is clear, however, that the Dark Claws have inherited a ferocious propensity for combat, and a notable willingness to prove themselves upon the crucible of battle.

 

It is fitting that, for a Chapter consumed by ancestor-worship, that the Dark Claws maintain close relationships with their gene-parents in the White Scars. Jaghatai Khan is revered as the ‘great ancestor’ and the two Chapters have, on occasion, campaigned together, bringing their Primarch great honour.

[Brother Barkus]

So,k they inquisition is unaware of their religious practices?

[Sigismund Himself]

It was, in part, this ecosystem which brought the Imperium to Kal Tunivor, in the hope of finding worthwhile sources of food for nearby worlds. This dream quickly collapsed when it was discovered how difficult it is to live in a world of swamps.

Are there any colonists still left or did all the natives kill them? Also, the planet seems to be another all one terrain world. Maybe have some different parts like mentioning tribes living on polar regions or on islands out at sea?

 

Their faces are criss-crossed by labyrinthine patterns of self-inflicted scars, and each Brother carries terrible weapons.

Would the scars also be represented on helmets as honour marks etc.

 

And what could be more terrible then the simple bolter? Some kind of ritual weapon?

 

A Marine has a special, symbiotic relationship with that particular spirit; indeed, every Marine carries a small cloth pouch containing ground bone, taken from the bones of his spirit-brother.

Does he carry it with him everywhere? Where does he keep it?

 

Trophy-taking is a tradition that enjoys great support within the Chapter.

Why? It appears on the surface to be close to ancestor worship but it seems a little odd when you think about it to me. Wouldn't you be having all the enemy's spirits hanging around you?

 

The Librarians, Chaplains and Apothecaries spend great amounts of time ensuring that recruits are suitable; a potential aspirant may show every indication of becoming a promising neophyte but may be abruptly rejected if the spirits do not give their approval.

What are their rate of recruits? If it's a remarkable feat to live a number of years, it would seem that the person has already been blessed by the spirits to get this far.

 

The Chapter’s Librarians maintain the traditional title of ‘Stormseer’. Within the Chapter, Stormseers are afforded great respect as they are said to be able to commune with the spirits at all times, thereby guiding the Chapter in an appropriate course. Few decisions are made without consulting the spirits for omen, and Captains often turn to the Seers when they require guidance.

 

The Chapter’s Librariam is an old, immense structure, housed within the depths of Kal Tunivor’s swamps and sited upon ancient lines of power which are said to be conducive to the spirits. The Librarium houses the knowledge that the Chapter has acquired over its millennia of service. Unlike many Chapters, however, the majority of these tales are kept alive as part of an oral tradition. The Stormseers often embark upon meditative trances where they seek to commune with the spirits, thereby keeping the tales of old alive.

 

Upon the battlefield, the mastery of the Librarians is both fearsome and awe-inspiring. Calling upon the spirits to aid them, these psychic warriors are capable of manipulating the energy of the warp and tearing through the Chapter’s enemies. The Librarians often advance into battle, wreathed in a corona of unnatural warpfire, followed loyally by the arrayed forces of the Dark Claws, determined not to dishonour the ancestor-spirits.

What role do the Chaplains (and apothecaries) play in the spirit business? It seems all the Librarians are getting all the respect which is a refreshing change.

 

It sounds like the Librarium is separate from the rest of the Fortress Monastery. More on where these guys live? Sidebar?

 

Interesting concept as always Mol ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

So,k they inquisition is unaware of their religious practices?

 

What is there for the Inquistion to be aware of? Nothing they're doing is heretical. They respect spirits? Well, that's not so odd. It's akin to the Ecclesiarchal saints, after all.

 

Sigismund:

 

The hatred of one-terrain worlds was something I mentioned a while ago, but then it died out. Utilityzero has brought it back in recent times, though. Well, fair enough. I believe that certain worlds within the Imperium could and would have one terrain. Some worlds that the Imperium terraformed, for example. Polar regions would exist, but they're irrelevant to the article. Around the equator you'd have hot swamps. In temperate regions, you'd have slightly cooler swamps. For this world, the one terrain works, and I'm sticking to it.

 

The colonists are the natives.

 

The scarring on the helmets is something the White Scars have, and I suppose it could be. It's quite a trend at the moment, though, with the painted tattoos in Krieger's Storm Falcons.

 

I wouldn't say Bolters are terrible. They're fearsome. You're perhaps thinking that the effects they have upon enemies are terrible. And yes, they are. I wouldn't want a bolt in me. But I was talking more about the appearance of the weapon. The pouch of bone is carried with him everywhere, yes - and would be attached to the armour in some fashion. The trophy-taking wouldn't mean having the enemy's spirits hanging on you - but if it did that's not such a problem in a "look at me, look what I've killed." sense.

 

You're a little myopic if you're focusing on their 'rate of recruits'. It's not something that's ever been codified even for the Ultramarines, so you're not going to get me saying "They take three recruits every three years, except on a leap year." because it's one of those areas in an IA where it pays to be fuzzy. :D Plus, if every person on the planet was 'blessed by the spirits', then nobody would stand out, right? :D

 

Chaplains and Apothecaries? Well, Chaplains would lead the Marines in prayer, and would ensure the Marines are observing the spirits - because to offend the spirits could end up in bad luck for the entire company, something no Captain would wish to happen. Apothecaries wouldn't be involved so much - aside from the implantation of the organs and the collection of the progenoids, which would have a greater significance in this Chapter.

 

I did envisage the Librarium as being distinct, actually. If you've watched Pirates of the Caribbean II, then the latter part, where they visit Tia Dalma - that's part of my inspiration for Kal Tunivor. That sense of gloom, danger, but a sense of religious quiet - a cathedral of twisting trees, a swamp where the spirits roam. Check this if you get the chance. I'm not sure about the sidebar, though. People seem to have a major-league sidebar fetish, these days. I only really like sidebars if they really contribute, and I'm not convinced I could use the sidebar in any way that I couldn't use the existing article.

[Sigismund Himself]

The hatred of one-terrain worlds was something I mentioned a while ago, but then it died out. Utilityzero has brought it back in recent times, though. Well, fair enough. I believe that certain worlds within the Imperium could and would have one terrain. Some worlds that the Imperium terraformed, for example.

Guess I'm still stuck disliking one terrain worlds then. Just reading it, I didn't get that the Imperium had started terraforming.

 

I just thought maybe mentioning a tribe that lives in the polar regions would add the difference. BUt you're right, it isn't needed. Maybe just saying that the Makoro inhabit most of the temperate zone of the planet or some such, to give that feeling of difference.

 

The colonists are the natives.

Ok, didn't quite get that from reading it.

 

I wouldn't say Bolters are terrible. They're fearsome. You're perhaps thinking that the effects they have upon enemies are terrible. And yes, they are. I wouldn't want a bolt in me. But I was talking more about the appearance of the weapon.

I was just trying to understand the use of the work terrible. It made it sound like they were carrying something different from the standard bolter like some kind of ritual weapon.

 

You're a little myopic if you're focusing on their 'rate of recruits'. It's not something that's ever been codified even for the Ultramarines, so you're not going to get me saying "They take three recruits every three years, except on a leap year." because it's one of those areas in an IA where it pays to be fuzzy. :(

I don't mean you have to spell it out but you could hint or say something about how many they have to draw from. By saying that they reject neophytes if the spirits don't agree gives the impression that they get a lot of recruits.

 

Plus, if every person on the planet was 'blessed by the spirits', then nobody would stand out, right? ;)

I think the fact of living until you're about 14 and then having been able to prove yourself enough to get notice from the chapter at that age would mean being particularly blessed by the spirits.

 

People seem to have a major-league sidebar fetish, these days.

Guilty as charged :)

[Commissar Molotov]

Guess I'm still stuck disliking one terrain worlds then. Just reading it, I didn't get that the Imperium had started terraforming.

 

I just thought maybe mentioning a tribe that lives in the polar regions would add the difference. BUt you're right, it isn't needed. Maybe just saying that the Makoro inhabit most of the temperate zone of the planet or some such, to give that feeling of difference.

 

Well, no, I dislike one-terrain worlds if they display a startling lack of originality. Sometimes they're useful, though. And it's a trait of 40k. Sometimes we just have to enjoy the hallmarks of our flawed universe, hrm? I'll see if I can alter the verbage slightly to appease you, though. Still, it's detrimental to the article as a whole if I spend most of it saying "and on this continent there's this tribe, and there's polar tribes here, and this continent..." - ultimately this is IA: Dark Claws, and not IA: Kal Tunivor. I could write thirty thousand words on the planet if I wanted, but it wouldn't benefit anybody.

 

The colonists are the natives.

Ok, didn't quite get that from reading it.

 

It wasn't really a major issue, but I'll see if I can alter it.

 

I was just trying to understand the use of the work terrible. It made it sound like they were carrying something different from the standard bolter like some kind of ritual weapon.

 

1. distressing; severe: a terrible winter.

2. extremely bad; horrible: terrible coffee; a terrible movie.

3. exciting terror, awe, or great fear; dreadful; awful.

4. formidably great: a terrible responsibility.

 

And yes, I can see them carrying close combat weapons and the like sometimes, I suppose. Although the Bolter itself could be considered 'terrible', especially if it were adorned with fetishes or marked out in some sort of way.

 

You're a little myopic if you're focusing on their 'rate of recruits'. It's not something that's ever been codified even for the Ultramarines, so you're not going to get me saying "They take three recruits every three years, except on a leap year." because it's one of those areas in an IA where it pays to be fuzzy. :lol:

I don't mean you have to spell it out but you could hint or say something about how many they have to draw from. By saying that they reject neophytes if the spirits don't agree gives the impression that they get a lot of recruits.

 

Well, not really. I think this is a Chapter that'd rather reject a recruit than invite the disapproval of the spirits. It's meant more to show just how seriously they take this spirit business.

 

Plus, if every person on the planet was 'blessed by the spirits', then nobody would stand out, right? :o

I think the fact of living until you're about 14 and then having been able to prove yourself enough to get notice from the chapter at that age would mean being particularly blessed by the spirits.

 

Ah, particularly blessed. Well that's a whole different story entirely... :D

[Dazzo]

For the people of Kal Tunivor, merely the act of living a few years is a remarkable feat.

It has been shown that in such an enviroment the immune system of humans can go into overdrive to ensure that they survive childhood, however in later life it causes alot of problems, I believe its called inflamatory immune response, and can cause early death. So maybe its more than the harsh enviroment that causes premature death but a survival response that allows them to survive at all could also be a problem.

 

Other than that its hard to comment much as its so well done theres not much to say other than err nice one B)

[Tyrannicide]

Well I like the spiritual aspects of the chapter. They come across as a bunch of brood warriors. I like the sound of their homeworld, and the totems that they tote around. Overall nicely written and a breath of fresh air.

[Octavulg]

My own thoughts.

 

The Dark Claws Chapter of Space Marines were created during the fifteenth founding of the Legionnes Astartes

 

Technically, aren't they now the Adeptus Astartes? IIRC, the Legiones is the technical term for the Legions proper.

 

And even if I'm wrong, it's Legiones. B)

 

Terrifying and sinister, swathed in arcane totems and ju-jus

 

Now I'm going to hear the entire IA in the voice of Boss Nass.

 

I hope you're happy. :)

 

It might be best to consider a word other than ju-ju. It's just so silly. And it makes me think of jube-jubes.

 

The Deathworld of Kal Tunivor is the fourth planet in its system. Small and wet, large tracts of the planet are over-taken by fast-growing forests which grow quickly within the slow-moving waters.

 

Fast-growing + quickly = redundant.

 

Other portions of the swamp are fresh-water, and some vegetation can be grown or harvested.

 

Might want to mention why it's a death world, since right now it sounds kind of nice (if perhaps a bit prone to mosquitoes).

 

It was, in part, this ecosystem which brought the Imperium to Kal Tunivor, in the hope of finding worthwhile sources of food for nearby worlds. This dream quickly collapsed when it was discovered how difficult it is to live in a world of swamps. The dominant tribe on Kal Tunivor are known as the Makoro. Living in stilted villages within the trees and travelling by boat, the Makoro have colonised much of the planet and live in small, semi-nomadic tribes, surviving mainly through agriculture and fishing.

 

You should explain that the tribes are descendants of the original colonists. This could be done incredibly easily by adding two words as follows: This dream quickly collapsed into barbarism when the colonists discovered...

 

Every Marine is said to be accompanied by his own spirit, who is almost invariably the Marine whose gene-seed provided him with the organs that were implanted during his initiation. A Marine has a special, symbiotic relationship with that particular spirit; indeed, every Marine carries a small cloth pouch containing ground bone, taken from the bones of his spirit-brother. The Chapter lore tells that it is important for a Marine to honour and respect the wishes of his spirit, and where possible to provide him with aid in the afterlife.

 

What about the geneseed tithed to the Mechanicus? Would they send along part of the brothers in question? Would it offend the spirits to be confined thus (or what have you)?

 

Might be an interesting point, just to see how the beliefs interact with the Imperium in this situation.

 

Also, Imperium isn't in the spellcheck dictionary for the forum. Nor is spellcheck. Heh...

 

These offerings range from weapons to entire armoured vehicles, their broken metal skeletons slowly corroding.

 

How do you ritually break an armored vehicle?

 

The Chapter fights with a primal ferocity that has gifted the Imperium with countless hard-fought victories throughout the Imperium.

 

The Imperium has victories throughout itself? How recursive. ;)

 

Trophy-taking is an encouraged practice, and it is not uncommon for the severed hands of an enemy or other such fetishes to adorn the armour of a Marine.

 

Already mentioned the popularity of trophy-taking, IIRC.

 

* * *

 

Neat. A voodoo chapter (sort of, anyway).

 

That said, there's a few general points of issue. Firstly, the writings not really up to your usual standard. Secondly, there's no real history to them, which robs them of their context in many ways. A little bit more of their history would make them more relatable.

 

Also, grey? An interesting, exciting chapter with mystery and such and you paint them grey. Have a heart, man.

[Commissar Molotov]

Hrm.

 

In the main your critique is well-reasoned, though I find your sarcasm a little inappropriate.

 

Many of the tautologies in the text will get removed.

 

Beyond that, I'll likely redefine the planet as a feral swamp-world rather than a deathworld. The planet isn't actively inimical to human life; it's simply difficult to live on.

 

Very good point regarding the gene-seed tithes. Perhaps the Chapter will cultivate a seperate line of gene-seed through vat-grown bodies or the like so as to keep the spirits "in-house".

 

These offerings range from weapons to entire armoured vehicles, their broken metal skeletons slowly corroding.

 

How do you ritually break an armored vehicle?

 

That seems like a silly question to me. Given that these vehicles would be enemy ones, they're already likely to be pretty broken. But beyond that it's very easy to ritually smash it with a hammer or the like. In that case, I imagine ritual would come before damage inflicted.

 

The Imperium has victories throughout itself? How recursive.

 

Well, you can talk about the Imperium as a political entity or as an area of space. The Imperium does have victories throughout its own space. But yes, it's a mistake and I'll edit it.

[Koremu]

Cultivating a false gene-seed line to decieve the AdMech is a big no-no. If they get caught at it, the presumption will be that they are hiding some dark secret of their real gene-seed.

 

Plenty of ancient cultures ritually destroyed items. Places all over Northern Europe have turned up swords ritually broken and bent. In the case of a marine chapter, ritually breaking a machine like that would surely involve driving out the machine spirit that inhabited it.

 

Which brings up another matter - the Techmarines are going to have some interesting beliefs.

 

That could be a solution to the gene-seed matter though. As long as the Chapter were convinced enough that Mars is a suitable resting place for a portion of the spirits of their battle brothers (or that the spirits were performing some vital service by going to Mars), they could possibly accept the neccessity.

[Ferrus Manus]

Cultivating a false gene-seed line to decieve the AdMech is a big no-no. If they get caught at it, the presumption will be that they are hising some dark secret of their real gene-seed.

 

Technically it's not a false geneseed line. The Chapter are just creating more geneseed as they normally would, but they send the newer seed to the Admech, that way they don't lose any spirits.

 

In the case of a marine chapter, ritually breaking a machine like that would surely involve driving out the machine spirit that inhabited it.

 

Which brings up another matter - the Techmarines are going to have some interesting beliefs.

 

I think Mol stated that the broken vehicles would be enemy machinery, so it would have already been destroyed in battle, and that way the Techmarines wouldn't have a problem.

[Commissar Molotov]

Cultivating a false gene-seed line to decieve the AdMech is a big no-no. If they get caught at it, the presumption will be that they are hiding some dark secret of their real gene-seed.

 

Plenty of ancient cultures ritually destroyed items. Places all over Northern Europe have turned up swords ritually broken and bent. In the case of a marine chapter, ritually breaking a machine like that would surely involve driving out the machine spirit that inhabited it.

 

Which brings up another matter - the Techmarines are going to have some interesting beliefs.

 

That could be a solution to the gene-seed matter though. As long as the Chapter were convinced enough that Mars is a suitable resting place for a portion of the spirits of their battle brothers (or that the spirits were performing some vital service by going to Mars), they could possibly accept the neccessity.

 

Just because something is a bad idea and you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that they can't do it. Equally, the Black Templars having 6,000 Marines is a big no-no. The Relictors collecting daemonweapons is a big no-no. The Black Dragons cultivating (and encouraging) mutation is a big no-no (note, they also send false gene-seed to the Mechanicus.) So on and so forth. And technically it's not a false gene-line.

 

Also, my knowledge of Mechanicus theology suggests that alien machines don't have machine spirits in the truest sense.

 

Good feedback with regards to Mars, and it's possible. But I'm not sure.

[Koremu]

Cultivating a false gene-seed line to decieve the AdMech is a big no-no. If they get caught at it, the presumption will be that they are hising some dark secret of their real gene-seed.

 

Technically it's not a false geneseed line. The Chapter are just creating more geneseed as they normally would, but they send the newer seed to the Admech, that way they don't lose any spirits.

 

I'm not convinced. More importantly, I'm not convinced that the AdMech and the Inquisition will be convinced.

 

One of the purposes of the tithes to Mars is to allow the AdMech to monitor the health and quality of the gene-seed in use by the battle brothers. If they wanted vat-clone grown gene-seed, they could do it themselves.

 

In the case of a marine chapter, ritually breaking a machine like that would surely involve driving out the machine spirit that inhabited it.

 

Which brings up another matter - the Techmarines are going to have some interesting beliefs.

 

I think Mol stated that the broken vehicles would be enemy machinery, so it would have already been destroyed in battle, and that way the Techmarines wouldn't have a problem.

 

I didn't say they would have a problem, just that they would have interesting beliefs. There's certainly nothing heretical (from an AdMech/Omnissiah POV) about other races vehicles having spirits.

 

It's even true in the case of the Eldar.

 

The scene of a Techmarine and a Librarian struggling to exorcise an Eldar tank would be interesting, if dangerous...

[Koremu]

Cultivating a false gene-seed line to decieve the AdMech is a big no-no. If they get caught at it, the presumption will be that they are hiding some dark secret of their real gene-seed.

 

Plenty of ancient cultures ritually destroyed items. Places all over Northern Europe have turned up swords ritually broken and bent. In the case of a marine chapter, ritually breaking a machine like that would surely involve driving out the machine spirit that inhabited it.

 

Which brings up another matter - the Techmarines are going to have some interesting beliefs.

 

That could be a solution to the gene-seed matter though. As long as the Chapter were convinced enough that Mars is a suitable resting place for a portion of the spirits of their battle brothers (or that the spirits were performing some vital service by going to Mars), they could possibly accept the neccessity.

 

Just because something is a bad idea and you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that they can't do it. Equally, the Black Templars having 6,000 Marines is a big no-no. The Relictors collecting daemonweapons is a big no-no. The Black Dragons cultivating (and encouraging) mutation is a big no-no (note, they also send false gene-seed to the Mechanicus.) So on and so forth. And technically it's not a false gene-line.

 

Also, my knowledge of Mechanicus theology suggests that alien machines don't have machine spirits in the truest sense.

 

Good feedback with regards to Mars, and it's possible. But I'm not sure.

 

I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying they shouldn't...

[flintlocklaser]

I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying they shouldn't...

 

If you mean 'they shouldn't' in game-universe terms, you could be right. But there's GW precedent for such deception (Black Dragons, as the Commissar mentioned), and plus doing something borderline dangerous like that makes for a good fluff hook for the chapter. I like the notion, personally.

[Apothete]

Just because something is a bad idea and you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that they can't do it. Equally, the Black Templars having 6,000 Marines is a big no-no. The Relictors collecting daemonweapons is a big no-no. The Black Dragons cultivating (and encouraging) mutation is a big no-no (note, they also send false gene-seed to the Mechanicus.) So on and so forth. And technically it's not a false gene-line.

 

To be fair, the one of those three that has been discovered at their games is Excommunicate Traitorus. It's a dangerous game to play, but there's certainly a place in the fluff for such things to exist and I don't see why a suitable secretive Chapter with a hostile enough world couldn't keep all but the most determined scrutiny away. After all, the Dark Angels do pretty much as they please when it comes to the Fallen and they're not being scoured from the galaxy for it.

 

One of the purposes of the tithes to Mars is to allow the AdMech to monitor the health and quality of the gene-seed in use by the battle brothers. If they wanted vat-clone grown gene-seed, they could do it themselves.

 

Duplicity would be the key, I think.

 

Would the Adeptus Mechanicus be able to tell that the gene-seed isn't from active line troops, rather than mindless clones that are kept in a vault somewhere? If so, how are they not catching the Black Dragons at the same game?

[Guest Mordray]

There should no difference between a vat-clone growing gene-seed and a battle brother growing gene-seed... after all if there was then it'd be pointless to use vat-clones for the chapter creation process in the first place.