Orky Math-Hammering

[minigun762]

Just thought I'd work this out, comparing your rank and file warriors from either side.

25 Ork Slugga Boyz vs 10 Chaos Space Marines

150 Point Total

For the purpose of this excercise, I put both armies 12" away from each other. Its true that the Bolters could kill some Orks on the way in but its just as likely that the Boyz are in a Trukk or screened by Killa Kans. This was considered to be a compromise on both parts. Also for the sake of arugement, it will be the Chaos Space Marine's turn to start. Lastly, I rounded the decimals to the nearest whole number for sanity sake.

 

If the Chaos Space Marines stand firm and Rapid Fire...

 

10 Bolters rapid firing = 20 shots

20 shots @ BS4 = 13 hits

13 hits @ T4 = 7 wounds = 7 dead Orks, 18 Remaining

 

18 Sluggas fire = 18 shots

18 shots @ BS2 = 6 hits

6 hits @ T4 = 3 wounds = 1 dead Marine, 9 Remaining

 

9 Marines attack = 18 swings (Due to I4 vs I3)

18 swings @ WS4 = 9 hits

9 hits @ T4 = 5 wounds = 4 dead Orks, 14 Remaining

 

14 Orks attack = 56 swings

56 swings @ WS4 = 28 hits

28 hits @ T4 = 14 wounds = 5 dead Marines, 4 Remaining

 

4 Marines attack = 8 swings

8 swings @ WS4 = 4 hits

4 hits @ T4 = 2 wounds = 2 dead Orks = 12 remaining

 

12 Orks attack = 36 swings

36 swings @ WS4 = 18 hits

18 hits @ T4 = 6 wounds = 2 dead Marines = 2 Remaining

 

Result: Outnumbered 6 vs 1, chances are the Chaos Space Marines will flee and run away, Orks win

 

If the Chaos Space Marines charge...

 

10 Bolt Pistols fire = 10 shots

10 shots @ BS4 = 7 hits

7 hits @ T4 = 3 wounds = 3 dead Orks, 22 Remaining

 

10 Marines charge = 30 attacks

30 attacks @ WS4 = 15 hits

15 hits @ T4 = 8 wounds = 6 dead Orks, 16 Remaining

 

16 Orks swing = 48 attacks

48 attacks @ WS4 = 24 hits

24 hits @ T4 = 8 wounds = 3 dead Marines, 7 Remaining

 

7 Marines swing = 14 attacks

14 attacks @ WS4 = 7 hits

7 hits @ T4 = 3 wounds = 3 dead Orks 13 Remaining

 

13 Orks swing = 39 attacks

39 attacks @ WS4 = 20 hits

20 hits @ T4 = 7 wounds = 2 dead Marines, 5 remaining

 

5 Marines swing = 10 attacks

10 attacks @ WS4 = 5 hits

5 hits @ T4 = 2.5 wounds = 2 dead Orks, 11 remaining

 

11 Orks swing = 33 attacks

33 attacks @ WS4 = 17 hits

17 hits @ T4 = 6 wounds = 2 dead Marines, 3 Remaining

 

3 Marines swing = 6 attacks

6 attacks @ WS4 = 3 hits

3 hits @ T4 = 2 wounds = 1 dead Ork, 10 Remaining

 

10 Orks swing = 30 attacks

30 attcks @ WS4 = 15 hits

15 hits @ T4 = 5 wounds = 2 dead Marines, 1 Remaining

 

Result: Outnumbered 10 vs 1, the Marine flees, Orks win!

 

Conclusion: An equal amount of stock Slugga Boyz will consistently beat Chaos Space Marines.

 

Little extra: It takes 72 normal Ork attacks to kill a single Plague Marine.... Ouch!

[Pariah Mk.231]

You gotta love how marines just don't live up to their fluff. Not even close :teehee:

I seriously expected the spikey boys to come off a little better than that though! Oh well

[Lord Humongous]

Getting the charge conveys more bonus than just an extra attack; you also control the terms of combat (how many models are engaged) to some extent. How about if the CSM's charge the orcs, setting up the charge to allow "unit clipping"? In an ideal case, that makes a BIG difference.

 

10 Bolt Pistols fire = 10 shots

10 shots @ BS4 = 7 hits

7 hits @ T4 = 3 wounds = 3 dead Orks, 22 Remaining

 

10 Marines charge = 30 attacks

30 attacks @ WS4 = 15 hits

15 hits @ T4 = 8 wounds = 6 dead Orks, 16 Remaining

 

Orcs do little or nothing because few to none none are in BtB. Orcs loose combat, maybe flee?

 

10 Marines = 20 attacks

20 attacks @ WS4 = 10 hits

10 hits @ T4 = 5 wounds = 4 dead Orks, 12 Remaining

 

12 Orks swing = 36 attacks

38 attacks @ WS4 = 18 hits

18 hits @ T4 = 6 wounds = 2 dead Marines, 8 Remaining

 

Orks loose combat again... flee?

 

8 Marines swing = 16 attacks

16 attacks @ WS4 = 8 hits

8 hits @ T4 = 4 wounds = 3 dead Orks 9 Remaining

 

9 Orks swing = 27 attacks

27 attcks @ WS4 = 13 hits

13 hits @ T4 = 7 wounds = 2 dead Marines, 6 Remaining

 

Orks loose combat again... flee?

 

6 Marines swing = 12 attacks

12 attacks @ WS4 = 6 hits

6 hits @ T4 = 3 wounds = 2 dead Orks, 7 remaining

 

7 Orks swing = 21 attacks

21 attcks @ WS4 = 14 hits

14 hits @ T4 = 7 wounds = 2 dead Marines, 4 Remaining

 

Tie.

 

4 Marines swing = 8 attacks

8 attacks @ WS4 = 4 hits

4 hits @ T4 = 2 wounds = 2 dead Orks, 5 remaining

 

5 Orks swing = 15 attacks

15 attacks @ WS4 = 7 hits

7 hits @ T4 = 4 wounds = 1 dead Marines, 3 Remaining

 

Tie.

 

3 Marines swing = 6 attacks

6 attacks @ WS4 = 3 hits

3 hits @ T4 = 1 wounds = 1 dead Orks, 4 remaining

 

4 Orks swing = 12 attacks

12 attcks @ WS4 = 6 hits

6 hits @ T4 = 2 wounds = 1 dead Marines, 2 Remaining

 

Tie.

 

2 Marines swing = 4 attacks

4 attacks @ WS4 = 2 hits

2 hits @ T4 = 1 wounds = 1 dead Orks, 3 remaining

 

3 Orks swing = 9 attacks

9 attcks @ WS4 = 5 hits

5 hits @ T4 = 2 wounds = 1 dead Marines, 1 Remaining

 

Tie. At this point, it looks grim for the lone marine.

 

Much closer in that case, and depending on dice (especially those early morale tests, and the fist CSM charge effect, which could kill fewer or more orcs) could go either way (math in the early rounds was VERY generous with Ork armor saves). And in a combat that long, its likely one or the other side will get re-enforcements.

Would be interesting to do the same test with the various cult units and icons. Not much point for tezeentch and slaneesh, they obviously fare even worse, but Khorne and Nurgle might break even with normal CSM's, or even do better.

[Levett]

Orks are fearless until the unit is below 10 models, so they wont flee until the end of the fight.

[DevianID]

do the shooting version of the mathhammer too!

 

Basicly, orks with shootas are the same points, have assault 2 18 inch range st4 weapons.

 

assume the CSM go first... they get only bolters at 18 inches, if they advance they cant shoot, the orks can and also fall back leaving the situation right where it started! Basicly, shoota orks are the ork version of grey knights!

 

For the math, CSM get 10 shots, killing 3.33 each shooting phase...

21 Orks (assuming the 3.33 is rounded up) kill 2.33, round down

8 CSM kill 2.66, round up

18 Orks kill 2, force a morale check

6 CSM kill 2

16 orks kill 1.77, round down

5 CSM kill 1.66, round up

14 orks kill 1.55, round down

4 CSM kill 1.33, round up

12 orks kill 1.33, round down, forces a morale check at -1

3 CSM kill 1

11 orks kill 1.22, round down, forces morale check at -1

2 CSM kill .666, round up

10 orks kill 1.11, round down, forces morale check at -1

1 CSM kills .333, round up

9 orks kill 1, CSM squad dies

 

So, after all that is said and done, giving every rounding advantage to CSM and letting them shoot first, the Orks still wipe them out to a man without even taking a morale check. The scale swings even more in favor of the orks when you factor in cover, as then orks get saves! Also, since orks outnumber so much, with the extra movement they get with waaghh and furious charge, shoota orks can shoot while advancing, then get a charge and with furious charge wipe the CSM in a single round. And if you add in special weapons and powerklaws/fists, which orks get for cheaper, the Ork advantage continues to grow.

[Hally]

Woah. Sometimes I up the stats/points to play more fluffy.

[Smurfalypse]

As much as i love math-hammering this is a little misleading. 25 footslogging boyz are NEVER going to hit melee at the same time, some will be left out so the first turn of combat is actually FAR in favor of the marines (i commonly do this against orks who i play a good amount). A buddy of mine runs this retarded list of HUGE units of boyz and his two HQs are warpheads and he trys to waagh everyturn them up the board, they also join units in case he teleports them across the board (tankbustas and stuff like that), usually in this list he has 2/3 30 boy unts on the board. These never win the first round of combat as the units str is literally cut in half for the round of combat.

 

Just something i thought i would point out

[minigun762]

As much as i love math-hammering this is a little misleading. 25 footslogging boyz are NEVER going to hit melee at the same time, some will be left out so the first turn of combat is actually FAR in favor of the marines (i commonly do this against orks who i play a good amount). A buddy of mine runs this retarded list of HUGE units of boyz and his two HQs are warpheads and he trys to waagh everyturn them up the board, they also join units in case he teleports them across the board (tankbustas and stuff like that), usually in this list he has 2/3 30 boy unts on the board. These never win the first round of combat as the units str is literally cut in half for the round of combat.

 

Just something i thought i would point out

 

Fair point, but lets face it, I'm not talented enough to try and figure out spacing/distance issues when it comes to number-crunching.

 

I guess my intention was more that you should be afraid or atleast aware that Rank and File Ork Boyz are a threat, especially those really big squads.

However the advantage does lie with Chaos in the 1st few turns, so that is the best time to break them. They will win a war of attrition just because they're so much cheaper.

[Maleficum]

what about nine CSM and a flamer-template?

 

 

We are more than just our rock-hard, well-armoured troopers.

 

 

This number-crunching only proves that orks are dangerous 'up close'. No surprise there. Really.

 

Having played tyranids against marines, and Vs orks (last codex) I can testify that horde armies rarely reach 'close quarters' fully intact.

[Smurfalypse]

Dont think he was adding in weapons on either side or there would be a Nob with a power klaw ripping 2 guys on average a turn.

 

My point was just that if you are 12 inches away and move forward two inches, packing yourself into a tight two row line (to make sure you get everyone able to attack on your end) and unleash your rapid fire goodness, you might actually kill your 12' kill zone or close too it...This would force an issue where he would get even less guys into the scrum. However on the flip side you could say that he has a WAAAGH! available and would be able to fit everyone in blah blah....Just wanted to point out that it was fairly misleading with the assualt on both ends.

[Smurfalypse]

Just wanted to ask if anyone has come across this feeling. Does anyone else here think the units of orks in trukks are a joke? I literally see them as a waste of pts vs me and i have NO fear of them at all. They just seem to get rocked so hard when they assualt my lines that its almost pointless, want to know if anyone else has the same feelings vs them.

 

Question number two...Anyone else facing an ork player who uses burna boyz in a battlewagon? These guys are deadly scarey and are good against ANY opponent. Your only option against these guys is to focus on the transport and pray you stop it so his guys are entangled, but man if they assualt you just count it as a GG. They are pure brutality at its finest.

 

Anyone else finding that Zagstruck isnt as scarey in game as he is on paper?

 

Anyone else finding out how much you apsolutely hate Snikrot? This guy goes on a rampage every game i play agianst him.

 

Has anyone been run over by a battlewagon with a deffrolla? Had my buddy run over my rhino and squish it (d6 str 10 hits), then my guys got out (taking their hits for vehicle wrecked with a reroll cause i moved over 6 inches), and my opponent still have movement left so he continued to then run over the unit that just got out of the rhino and they took d6 str 10 hits. Knocked my unit down to 4 guys just from getting run over by a friggin battlewagon ;) We apsolutely loved it and laughed a pile, but man was it brutal. A few days later he ran over a monolith and crushed it, then again the next day against an eldar falcon which he got the back of with the guys in it. So against the falcon he actually killed the entire unit and the vehicle in one go. Anyone else having this issue? :P

[Captain Idaho]

As much as i love math-hammering this is a little misleading. 25 footslogging boyz are NEVER going to hit melee at the same time, some will be left out so the first turn of combat is actually FAR in favor of the marines (i commonly do this against orks who i play a good amount). A buddy of mine runs this retarded list of HUGE units of boyz and his two HQs are warpheads and he trys to waagh everyturn them up the board, they also join units in case he teleports them across the board (tankbustas and stuff like that), usually in this list he has 2/3 30 boy unts on the board. These never win the first round of combat as the units str is literally cut in half for the round of combat.

 

Just something i thought i would point out :P

 

i was about to say something very similar! the Orks are not quite fast enough to all get a charge and therefore would probably be fighting the Chaosmarines in roughly equal numbers in the first round of combat, which means they will probably lose...

 

but i do agree that an Ork mob is dangerous to face, especially when there are more than a few Ork mobs in the army!

[highmarshalHelbrecht]

Just wanted to ask if anyone has come across this feeling. Does anyone else here think the units of orks in trukks are a joke? I literally see them as a waste of pts vs me and i have NO fear of them at all. They just seem to get rocked so hard when they assualt my lines that its almost pointless, want to know if anyone else has the same feelings vs them.

 

Question number two...Anyone else facing an ork player who uses burna boyz in a battlewagon? These guys are deadly scarey and are good against ANY opponent. Your only option against these guys is to focus on the transport and pray you stop it so his guys are entangled, but man if they assualt you just count it as a GG. They are pure brutality at its finest.

 

Anyone else finding that Zagstruck isnt as scarey in game as he is on paper?

 

Anyone else finding out how much you apsolutely hate Snikrot? This guy goes on a rampage every game i play agianst him.

 

Has anyone been run over by a battlewagon with a deffrolla? Had my buddy run over my rhino and squish it (d6 str 10 hits), then my guys got out (taking their hits for vehicle wrecked with a reroll cause i moved over 6 inches), and my opponent still have movement left so he continued to then run over the unit that just got out of the rhino and they took d6 str 10 hits. Knocked my unit down to 4 guys just from getting run over by a friggin battlewagon :D We apsolutely loved it and laughed a pile, but man was it brutal. A few days later he ran over a monolith and crushed it, then again the next day against an eldar falcon which he got the back of with the guys in it. So against the falcon he actually killed the entire unit and the vehicle in one go. Anyone else having this issue? ;)

 

A little ninja action on this topic. ;)

 

I'll answer you questions anyway.

 

I only get a little nervous when a truck comes screaming at me with Mega Armored Nobz. Although I have never faced Burna Boyz in the new ccodex, they sound absolutely scary!! POWER WEAPONS in close combat WHAT?!?

 

Also haven't played against the Special Characters quite yet.

 

Deffrolla is the bane of the 40k table! I set target priority on the vehicles with deffrollas at the highest. I really don't want my guys turning into 40k road pizzas because of this. Also you should note the Monolith would have been fine since it's Armor is the same as the Battlewagons, effectively stopping any tank shock. Also isn't it a rule that vehicles with lesser armor value just have to move out of the way?

[Rob the lurker]

That deffrolla one is interesting - it does talk about units getting tankshocked, so I think that vehicles would count for these hits - I'll double check later! Also i dont think you can tank shock a vehicle whose armour ie >= to your armour, so monoliths are still cheese. At least it doesnt ignore armour saves!

[minigun762]

Its against Orks that I miss not having Whirlwinds or some sort of Indirect Fire weapon. Heavy Bolter Templates would be a great solution, plus they're dirt cheap.

 

Of course Ordnance is always my answer to hordes

[Smurfalypse]

The deffrolla says if you are tank shocked. So it effects vehicles even if they get out of the way, and i believe (could be wrong) that its all vehicles that arnt higher armor vaule than yourself so you would still have to get out of the way and take the D6 str 10 hits. Thus turning transports into a tube of toothpaste :lol: If you death or glory against the deffrolla you take yet a second D6 str 10 hits, this is of course if you dont stop it in its tracks with the auto hit shot/attack.

[Primarch Naogedd]

In response to several Ork threads that I have found, I worked the numbers for Khorne Berzerkers VS Boyz in direct close combat. I hope you will forgive my presumption in quoting myself.

 

I did some number-crunching and I figured out that your other best friends are your Berzerkers. Their high weapon skill cuts down on the number of hits, and their kill ratio is insane. If you charge them instead of them charging you, your chances of killing, per hit, is 20/54. Considering that they have 4 attacks each when charging when you include BP+CC, that means 10 Berzerkers=14/15 dead/turn. Still not impressed? Look at survivability. An ork that has been charged by a Berzerker has a 1/27 chance of killing per hit. 3 attacks each including slugga+choppa makes 3/27. That means 9 boyz=1 dead berzerker. Not as good as Plague Marines, but still quite good. Seeing as boyz are cheap, then you can have 35 boyz/10 Berzerkers. Berzerkers attack first, 15 dead. 20 boyz left, 2 kills, we have 20 boyz and 8 Berzerkers. 15*6=90 points dead, as opposed to 21*2=42 points dead. 2-for-1 points ratio.

 

Second turn, they kill 6, the remaining boyz kill 1 (if lucky), 14 boyz, 7 berzerkers left. At this point, it is hopeless. The Berzerkers kill 6, the boyz (if very very lucky) kill one, 8 boyz and 6 berzerkers. There is almost nothing in the galaxy save the Orks rolling straight 6s and the Berzerkers all rolling 1s that will save the Orks.

[DevianID]

Which is why all the ork players around me play 30 boy shoota squads... Berzerkers cant do anything except get shot to death at 18 inches, and 30 orks still beat almost everything despite not having the extra close combat attack.

 

Slugga boyz are all in trucks with rams... and while someone mentioned that a CSM squad beats them, they forget that the Ork player almost always has more than one truck, and if not uses local superiority so only 5 CSM are engaged when the orks charge, usually the champion and the special weapons, and by the end of the first round all 5 will be dead with only 1-2 ork casualties in return.