Legion

[Dvil666]

and he always manages to create characters that you care about and/or can relate to.

For instance, Eisenhorn. There are a lot of books that mention the "Eisenhorn heresy" or use him as an example of a loyalist turned bad, but you just try to read the Eisenhorn trilogy and not come out believing at least 90% he did the right thing.

 

 

You may be able to guess, I am a massive Abnett fan :rolleyes:

[Weiss]

I can't quote right now, but I read the passage describing the leader as him being part of a bio-engineered family line. The fact that abnett made special mention of the fact that he's a dwarf makes me disinclined to believe that they are. Though there were squats pre-heresy as they hadn't yet been gobbled by the Tyranids...

[bigred]

I just finished it and thought it was fantastic.

 

The only little bit of dissapointment was that Abnett chose to keep the secret of exactly what Grammaticus saw when he met the Emperor. I hope that get revealed in time, because th the initial rumors of what it was were pretty stunning.

 

As for Alphas, my take is that they were, have been, and still are loyalists. Faced with his Hobbsian Choice, Alpharius/Omegon choose the one path only their Legion could pull off... Stay Loyal and Infiltrate Chaos. Its the ultimate 10,000 year "Deep Cover Operation".

[Beef]

Faced with his Hobbsian Choice, Alpharius/Omegon choose the one path only their Legion could pull off... Stay Loyal and Infiltrate Chaos. Its the ultimate 10,000 year "Deep Cover Operation".

 

 

I did not relise you could summon demons and still consider yourself loyal and untainted.

[Sigismund Himself]

Faced with his Hobbsian Choice, Alpharius/Omegon choose the one path only their Legion could pull off... Stay Loyal and Infiltrate Chaos. Its the ultimate 10,000 year "Deep Cover Operation".

 

 

I did not relise you could summon demons and still consider yourself loyal and untainted.

TT rules don't equate to fluff as we learnt with the release of the new Chaos codex.....

[Lay]

I did not relise you could summon demons and still consider yourself loyal and untainted.

I don't buy it too.

 

Originally the ALs martial pride was enough to corrupt them beyond redemption.

No daemonic possession, cursed mumbo jumbo or magic whatsoever - mere human pride.

 

Now they decide for themselves not to embrace Chaos while taking part in Black Crusades and spreading cults. :huh:

Evil Grey Knights anyone?

 

 

TT rules don't equate to fluff as we learnt with the release of the new Chaos codex.....

That's not a TT rule - it's AL fluff that they'll gladly summon daemons if they secure the faith in Chaos on a world.

Not to mention that there's currently zero fluff support for a loyal post-heresy Alpha Legion that stays away from anything daemonic.

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

I did not relise you could summon demons and still consider yourself loyal and untainted.

I don't buy it too.

 

Originally the ALs martial pride was enough to corrupt them beyond redemption.

No daemonic possession, cursed mumbo jumbo or magic whatsoever - mere human pride.

 

Now they decide for themselves not to embrace Chaos while taking part in Black Crusades and spreading cults. ;)

Evil Grey Knights anyone?

 

 

TT rules don't equate to fluff as we learnt with the release of the new Chaos codex.....

That's not a TT rule - it's AL fluff that they'll gladly summon daemons if they secure the faith in Chaos on a world.

Not to mention that there's currently zero fluff support for a loyal post-heresy Alpha Legion that stays away from anything daemonic.

 

I'm sure most of the legion has fallen to chaos by now, with just a few of them, including one/both primarchs remaining loyal to the Emperor.

[Eetion]

I think you will find its the cults that summon daemons.... and where is the harm in using the powers your fighting to destroy in the long term.

[Lay]

I think you will find its the cults that summon daemons....

And guess who trains these cultists.

 

and where is the harm in using the powers your fighting to destroy in the long term.

The harm is corruption. You touch Chaos, you get tainted.

[bigred]

I did not relise you could summon demons and still consider yourself loyal and untainted.

 

You mean like say for instance.... Radical Inquisitors?

 

Lets see, Codex:Deamonhunters even has a daemonhost unit entry in it, which looks to me like a summoned daemon bound to service by a member of the Inquisition...

[Weiss]

As bigred said, there's plenty of presendence for that type of thing.

 

@Lay: you have to remember that Legion has only just been written. Do you expect them to come out with a library of written documents as soon as they ret-con/change any single bit of story? We'd be drowning in paper before the month's out... :tu:

[Lay]

@Weiss: Do you expect no one to chit-chat about the new fluff or only those who approve it? :)

[Weiss]

? At what point did I state that your not allowed to chit-chat? (that phrase makes me think of my 78 year old grandmother...)

[Pulse]

...so the fact that he just made a 21st Primarch and completely turned the entirety of the Alpha Legion and their motives in a direction few 40K fans ever expected isn't a good enough symbol of his clout? ;) I think Abnett himself posted on his blog that he was surprised how much GW let him change. No, the guy definitely has a lot of pull in the GW fluff department, this book should be evidence.

Damn right, Abnetts influence is no doubt increasing and its because of his clearly exceptional ideas. He just keeps getting better and better.

 

Easily the best author, Legion was amazing.

[Ju'kosian]

Just finished the book.

 

Great read IMO. the alpharius/Omegon thing suprised me..

So Roboute may have killed alpharius, there's still a primarch left for the Alpha legion.

The fact they sided with Horus for the good off humanity, that was under assumption that Horus would WIN.

He did not, so I don't kow if they still want to fight for the emperor.

Roboute killing one of the twins may have pissed the other off a bit.

Doing good for the emperor is not easy, look at Magnus..

 

He tried to help the emperor, was declared a traitor and prosecuted.. In his bitterness He sided with Chaos completly and utterly..

Maybe something like that Happened for the Alpha Legion.

[Purge The Weak]

The most amazing connection i have made, however, is that in the Alpha Legion's Index Astartes article (WD 277) their battlecry is written down (by the victors, of course) as being 'For the Emperor!' - which is described as a way of insulting and infruriating any enemy who recognises them as traitors. Wrong. When an Alpha Legionaire yells his battlecry, he actually means it...

 

Yeah I spotted that straight away at the end of the book, classical, made me chuckle!

 

is anyone else getting a little tired of all the Chaos Space Marines who aren't Chaos Space Marines though? not only are basic Renegade Chapters like the Soul Drinkers not actually Chaotic, but even the 9 Traitor Legions (who are supposed to be the poster boys for Chaos) seem to be becoming less and less to do with Chaos eith every publication. Flugrim wasn't, the IWs aren't, the NL aren't and now the AL aren't. how long before we find out that the WB aren't and the BL were only pretending.

 

No one would want to be chaos given the choice. It is the manipulative powers of chaos that make them. Besides, angrons tale will be quite something different, if it is anything like current fluff, he will never of been fighting for the emperor in the first place...

That isn't true at all. Slaanesh was born from the Eldar's emotions. As it is anything that can touch the Warp can feed the Gods.

 

Necrons For the win?!

 

As for the lucifer nearly killing Alpharius, his whole approach was to win a war you need sacrifices. He let the lucifer hit him and his blade got stuck, says in the book, easy kill from that point on. Exactly like the sacrifice of 'the dancers' at the start of the book.

If so, then remember that at the end of the book Zahariel is sent back to Caliban with the Dark Angels who most likely end up being the Fallen. Is it possible that the Fallen are acting with the Cabal? It would certainly explain why Jervis Johnson has said that Cypher is not a Chaos Space Marine and why Cypher stirs up so much trouble.

 

This seems likely. I couldn't ever see zarheriel turning without a very good reason. After all it totally divided the legion and ruined them. Cypher could be like a space marine but the same as the john gram... person in Legion. Not quite human. Afterall he was only 1000 years old and had been brought back from death. Easily manageable for cypher.

[Ulfast]

I thought it was a very good book. I liked that the AL actually turned from the emperor but is loyal to his ideas(something the loyalist chapters are not). I think this makes the 40k universe much bigger and thats good. Also I think we have enought chaos in the universe. Seems much more intersting to see that it could be other intresed and ideas in the universe. Remember, still many legions turned completly to chaos and you can have all the nasty stuff about them. Take EC for a example, ok there primarch regrets what he did but the rest of the legion never did. They turned all the way to chaos and became slannesh worshipper and never lookted back once.

[shaolin saiyan]

i liked the book it was a good read and added another dimension to this beloved story, but what i didnt like is the alpha legion was excluded from about 75% of the story and the twin phenomenon(sp?) wasn't explained.

[Pulse]

i liked the book it was a good read and added another dimension to this beloved story, but what i didnt like is the alpha legion was excluded from about 75% of the story and the twin phenomenon(sp?) wasn't explained.

The HH novels are not just about the Astartes, it involves all people from low IG soldiers upwards.

 

The Twin situation would have been pretty sweet if it was explained, but it adds more mystery to the Legion and leaves the readers guessing. Maybe it will be explained later on?

[utilityzero]

i liked the book i guess, the secrecy thing was done as well as can be expected from a BL book i suppose, but i still felt like the first half of the book could have been summed up in about 5 pages and the story would have still worked out the same. just like in the DA book, i can't even remember what that piece of trash was called, the story actually only takes place in the last 2 or 3 chapters and the rest just feels like filler. Legion was better than the DA one, but it would have taken an extraordinary effort to have been worse so that's not saying much.

 

really, the one thing i truly liked about the book without any sort of caveat attached was the character of the regiments introduced, the ones with the blades all over them were kinda lame, but the Chiliad and the Lucifer Blacks were really great, they were on par with the Death Korps, i find most of the IG regiments to be a little bland to be honest.

 

i was sort of thinking along the same lines as Ju'kosian as for how the Alpha Legion could fall to chaos. i think if they are one soul and two bodies, then the loss of one would be incredibly detrimental to the psyche of the other.

 

Gramaticus was an interesting character, but i don't like how he seems to be better than everyone at everything until the very end when he has to make a mistake for the storyline to work itself out, i just didn't see the geno officer as being capable of that sort of duplicity and fooling someone who has had 1,000 years of practice in reading people. it's not a terrible way to end the book, it was an interesting twist, but it felt sort of like an effortless ending to be honest.

 

i hate that the Alpha Legion seems to know from the top down about chaos, what the hell? Horus was made to seem mostly unaware of it, and he never even gave his closest officers the barest hint of its existence until it was staring them all in the face, and he lied to keep the secret i believe. but the Alpha Legion, which does nothing but keep secrets just blurts it out at a dinner party? what the hell Dan? really? is there going to be any continuity beyond the first 3 or 4 books? or are the HH novels going to be just as shot through with contradictions as everything else GW does?

 

i also felt like he left too many things hanging, like, he hinted at a lot of things then backed away either because it would have been a little too graphic or distasteful to delve into, or sometimes it seemed like he was simply lazy about it. like he constantly hinted at the idea of the Uxors of the Chiliad being romatically involved with their hetmen, but he only seemed willing to further explore the idea with Gramaticus, which was obviously essential to the book, or when talking about the Uxor's advisers, who were all like 15, so i can understand leaving that part untouched, but the main Uxor, the one which commanded the two primary hetmen in the book, i felt like he never completely developed her character or how attached she really was to her men. it seemed sloppy to me. don't add stuff to a story unless you're going to finish it, that's how you end up with something like Pirates of the Caribbean 2.

[Oelitto]

First time post: [rant]

 

One thing I just do not "get" is the belief that the Emperor knows everything. He may be the Oldest, most powerful Psyker, but he is not an all knowing god, as stated in Inquisitor after the heresy that he was starting to be worshipped as a God, and Index Astartes Word Bearers that he repremands them for worshipping him (thus turning to the Chaos Gods that demand to be worshipped). The Big E is an Atheist, not a god.

 

Examples:

he stalled for days when the Horus heresy kicks off, unwilling to accept that Horus turned. Only accepting it when Horus flayed a Loyalist with a look

he did not know the Magnus' legion were still practising sorcerery, and really bad case of mutation, as with Sangy of BA

he did not know where his "sons" were dropped off when they were scattered. he used Tarot cards to find them only when they were close enough.

he did not know that if he won, Chaos would win the long war.

he did not know the Word Bearers turned to Chaos.

He did not know that his mere appearance on Nostromo (Night Lords Hw) would spell ruin for its people. (they were only kept in line by Konrad)

and so on...

 

The Emperor (is/was/if actually real) still just a human. fully capable of a serious case of delusions of grandure, and self-rightousness.

so I highly doubt that he knew of Omegon's existence, unless Omegon walked upto him and said "Hey Old man, where's my pocket money? you gave some to Alpharius, dont be stingy."

[Weiss]

? You realise that the Emperor had A/O in a test tube for months/years before they were finally complete right? I wasn't basing my opinion on the thought that he knows everything (I actually put forward the view that he was just human in another thread and got skinned alive for it...).

 

For them to be twins, the embryo would need to split at an early stage in development (you can't just have a grown arm split off and form it's own body, second arm, etc...) It would therefore be reasonable to assume that the Emperor would have seen this, as whenever a Primarch lands on a planet, he is already fully formed and even capable of surviving in the wild (El'Johnson, for example).

 

@Utilityzero: so because he didn't have an Uxor sex scene, you don't like the book? :lol:

[brother Hastatus]

i liked the book i guess, the secrecy thing was done as well as can be expected from a BL book i suppose, but i still felt like the first half of the book could have been summed up in about 5 pages and the story would have still worked out the same. just like in the DA book, i can't even remember what that piece of trash was called, the story actually only takes place in the last 2 or 3 chapters and the rest just feels like filler. Legion was better than the DA one, but it would have taken an extraordinary effort to have been worse so that's not saying much.

 

But by that arguement most books could be summed up in 5 pages. Take the Sharpe books for example. It would run something like this:

 

First five pages: runs round fighting, meets dangerous and highly clever villain that everyone wants dead but no one's managed to kill. Fights them a few times but they survive. Impresses beautiful princess/wealthy woman. Strikes heroic pose.

 

Rest of book: Big battle in which Sharpe confronts enemy, has a desperate, to-the-death fight. Wins fight. Strikes heroic pose again (particularly in films).

 

But the books aren't like that. Those five pages are bulked out, and go into more depth, and explain more. Thats what make the Sharpe books so good. And it's what makes Legion so good. You have to set the scene before having the big fight scene. Otherwise you won't have a clue whats going on. It's like only reading the blurb and the last chapter of the book. Although the blurb gives basic details, it doesn't fill in enough details for you to understand or enjoy the last chapter.

 

One thing I just do not "get" is the belief that the Emperor knows everything. He may be the Oldest, most powerful Psyker, but he is not an all knowing god, as stated in Inquisitor after the heresy that he was starting to be worshipped as a God, and Index Astartes Word Bearers that he repremands them for worshipping him (thus turning to the Chaos Gods that demand to be worshipped). The Big E is an Atheist, not a god.

 

Examples:

he stalled for days when the Horus heresy kicks off, unwilling to accept that Horus turned. Only accepting it when Horus flayed a Loyalist with a look

he did not know the Magnus' legion were still practising sorcerery, and really bad case of mutation, as with Sangy of BA

he did not know where his "sons" were dropped off when they were scattered. he used Tarot cards to find them only when they were close enough.

he did not know that if he won, Chaos would win the long war.

he did not know the Word Bearers turned to Chaos.

He did not know that his mere appearance on Nostromo (Night Lords Hw) would spell ruin for its people. (they were only kept in line by Konrad)

and so on...

 

How do you know the big E. didn't know everything? Perhaps he had foreseen it, and had planned for it so that the loyalists would survive. Perhaps he didn't see it all coming, which is why they only just won, but I think he saw at least some of it.

[Oelitto]

all the fluff since Rogue trader has pointed to the Emperor having a very human self belief in his own destiny.

 

@weiss: I wasn't directing it at you, it was just a frustration rant, sorry if you felt singled out. I got an Alpharius/omegon coming so I know how twins are made :devil:

 

@brother hastatus: seeing that Big E was warned, or could have seen warning signs several times and dimissed them all as "your all wrong, I know what i'm doing, i'll just go back to terra and play in my room." it just shows aragance. but then again another bad rewrite by a certain GW staff and the chaos gods could be giant bunnies. ;p

 

plus i defy anyone to make the conscious descision to be stuck in a throne for 10k years whislt you slowly rot, only joking.

[brother Hastatus]

Okay, you convinced me. Although I think he knew something was going to happen and could see somethings.