"Legion" Novel...

[Void Stalkers]

is legion part of the horus heresy series?

[Razhbad]

Yes Legion is part of HH series. Most likely the AL are not loyal to the Emperor after everything that has happened since the Heresy they are most likely in league with the Gods (but more like a untrusted alliance). As regard the memories of old have made them bitter agaisn't Traitors and loyalist. Plus having bases within the Impeium itself also adds to them being purer. Also only 4 individuals saw what the Cabal saw and if this knowledge wasn't spread then the troops have no idea about why the joined Horus.

 

Also did anyone consider the the Cabal itself was being manipulated. Tzeentch is far better at manipulation then others and the Chaos Gods had been planning the Heresy probably since the fall of the Old One so perhaps the AL involvement was twisted by Chaos to make sure they had more servents.

[LeftWingFascist]

no the entire legion might not have seen what was in the machine but as was true to the alpha legion before they attack the imp guard at the end alpharius addresses the legion and asks them what they should do and also an alpha astartes says for the emperor when an imp guard asks why they attacked before he shoots the imp guard

[Hrvat]

Also wouldn't fighting against the current Imperium be fighting for the idea of the Great Crusade?

[Nemisor]

also an alpha astartes says for the emperor when an imp guard asks why they attacked before he shoots the imp guard

 

i could be wrong but im pretty sure that was alpharius.

[Tokunator]

Don't they still shout that these days just to confuse the enemy?

 

 

 

I really hated some of the ideas in that book, just as I liked some of the other stuff. I enjoyed the story with Alpharius and Omegon (especially knowing that Alpharius will die fighting Roboute) and the tactics of the Legion. The fact that Abnett managed to tell us about the Legion without telling us too much was really great, as it was in character for the Legion. The battle barges are called Alpha and Beta, how could was that? All this creates this image that the Alpha Legion are Marines, but they are not the shiny knights that some of the other Legions are with boisterous names for their ships and all the flashy fanfare, but that they get the job done.

 

 

HOWEVER: I thought that the plot twist (the reason why they join Horus) is just rubbish. It reminded me of Palpatine swaying Anakin Skywalker to betray everything he stood and had fought for in a single minute's worth of dialogue, which is not a good thing to put it mildly. No wait, it was exactly the same as that dreadful scene in that dreadful movie.

 

There was a perfectly reasonable reason why Alpharius joined Horus in the canon background and how cool would it have been to have the description of Alpharius planning the Dropsite Massacre instead of that silly vision stuff? I felt cheated by the end of this book (apart from the attack on the Imperial fleet itself). Why not simply use Roboute's insults and Horus' oratory talents to sway Alpharius, which would have made for an enjoyable read (I am confident that Abnett, being imho the best GW writer, could have done that in a credible fashion)? This ending seems to be the attempt to turn the Alpha Legion into some kind of flawed hero who would sacrifice mankind for the good of the galaxy. Yes, they will sacrifice everything to get the job done, but remember that their mission is to destroy all enemies of mankind, not the good of the galaxy.

[Contaminus]

I liked the twist at the end. It adds a bit more depth and character to the legion as a whole rather than the "Well, they're just a bunch of ba:cussds tbh".

 

However, I have my own theories as to what went on. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but does farseeing not come from the warp in some way? If that's the case, is it then not impossible that the visions shown to the cabal and to Alpharius and Omegon were false, a bit like how the visions granted to Horus were. I doubt it's beyond the powers of Tzeentch to manipulate even the cabal. If that's the case, then I would say the current timeline was and is infact the 'good' one, in which the chaos gods are defeated in the final battle between good and evil. As I said, farseeing is Eldar territory so I'm not an expert on how it works. Food for thought though, yes? ;)

[Hellios]

I liked the twist at the end. It adds a bit more depth and character to the legion as a whole rather than the "Well, they're just a bunch of ba:cussds tbh".

 

However, I have my own theories as to what went on. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but does farseeing not come from the warp in some way? If that's the case, is it then not impossible that the visions shown to the cabal and to Alpharius and Omegon were false, a bit like how the visions granted to Horus were. I doubt it's beyond the powers of Tzeentch to manipulate even the cabal. If that's the case, then I would say the current timeline was and is infact the 'good' one, in which the chaos gods are defeated in the final battle between good and evil. As I said, farseeing is Eldar territory so I'm not an expert on how it works. Food for thought though, yes? :)

 

You also assume that the cabal didn't want Alpharius to join Chaos for a totally different reason... a reason of thier own... they didn't want either to win... If the Emperor won (winning dosen't count if you can't wipe your own dribble) because eventually the Great Crusade would have destroyed them and they didn't want Chaos to win because again they would have been destroyed... what they might have wanted was for them to both cripple each other.

[Gideon Bane]

I liked the twist at the end. It adds a bit more depth and character to the legion as a whole rather than the "Well, they're just a bunch of ba:cussds tbh".

 

However, I have my own theories as to what went on. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but does farseeing not come from the warp in some way? If that's the case, is it then not impossible that the visions shown to the cabal and to Alpharius and Omegon were false, a bit like how the visions granted to Horus were. I doubt it's beyond the powers of Tzeentch to manipulate even the cabal. If that's the case, then I would say the current timeline was and is infact the 'good' one, in which the chaos gods are defeated in the final battle between good and evil. As I said, farseeing is Eldar territory so I'm not an expert on how it works. Food for thought though, yes? :lol:

 

My understanding of Eldar Farsight is that they use the Webway to gain some insight, feeding it through runes in order to weed the potential for demonic influence out.

[davidren2401]

If that's the case, is it then not impossible that the visions shown to the cabal and to Alpharius and Omegon were false, a bit like how the visions granted to Horus were.

 

How were the visions shown to Horus false? He was shown a temple world where the Emperor and the loyal Primarchs were worshiped day and night by a legion of flagellents. There's got to be 1000 or more worlds exactly like that in the Imperium. He was shown an account of how the 20 Primarchs first came to be cast into the warp and how the Emperor let it happen. Nothing I've read in GW cannon fluff contradicts this though I stand to be corrected if anyone has a reference?

[Contaminus]

I liked the twist at the end. It adds a bit more depth and character to the legion as a whole rather than the "Well, they're just a bunch of ba:cussds tbh".

 

However, I have my own theories as to what went on. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but does farseeing not come from the warp in some way? If that's the case, is it then not impossible that the visions shown to the cabal and to Alpharius and Omegon were false, a bit like how the visions granted to Horus were. I doubt it's beyond the powers of Tzeentch to manipulate even the cabal. If that's the case, then I would say the current timeline was and is infact the 'good' one, in which the chaos gods are defeated in the final battle between good and evil. As I said, farseeing is Eldar territory so I'm not an expert on how it works. Food for thought though, yes? :P

 

My understanding of Eldar Farsight is that they use the Webway to gain some insight, feeding it through runes in order to weed the potential for demonic influence out.

 

Maybe, but I'd be willing to bet that the most powerful psyker out of Tzeentch and the Eldar farseers would be the God of Psykers :P

 

If that's the case, is it then not impossible that the visions shown to the cabal and to Alpharius and Omegon were false, a bit like how the visions granted to Horus were.

 

How were the visions shown to Horus false? He was shown a temple world where the Emperor and the loyal Primarchs were worshiped day and night by a legion of flagellents. There's got to be 1000 or more worlds exactly like that in the Imperium. He was shown an account of how the 20 Primarchs first came to be cast into the warp and how the Emperor let it happen. Nothing I've read in GW cannon fluff contradicts this though I stand to be corrected if anyone has a reference?

 

It's held as pretty common knowledge that even if the visions were real, he was only shown one version of events (the future in which he rebels) in order to turn him against the Emperor. The visions weren't necessarily false as such- maybe that was the wrong word- but more the visions were just that: visions. Not necessarily any future set in stone or any series of events that happened exactly that way.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I enjoyed the story with Alpharius and Omegon (especially knowing that Alpharius will die fighting Roboute)

 

Or will it be Omegon who dies? :D

Or Sheed Ranko? :yes:

Or just propaganda since no official source definitively states that it happened and Gulliman never claimed to have killed Alpharius, it was just one Ultramarine subsequently judged a heretic who told the story. ;)

 

As for the visions in the Delphos, they were accurate depictions of the future to come. The trick is that Horus was actually shown events that only came to pass because he turned from his path in order to try to prevent them!

 

The vision shown to Alpharius Omegon was at least accurate in its depiction of what would happen if Horus tried and failed. What would have happened if he had succeeded will never be known, a fact that must have tormented Alpharius, he betrayed that which he held dear and then failed to achieve the goal for which he had done it. Maybe if he had stayed loyal there could have been a better alternative.

 

I've re-worked my Alpha Legion fluff to make them into a splinter group post Istvaan 5. I can't agree with Alpharius that it was worth sacrificing mankind to destroy chaos. The destruction of Chaos was only a goal to the extent that it removed a threat to the utopian vision of the Emperor and the Great Crusade. Better to try to manage the imperfect society.

 

My AL company stayed loyal to Alpharius when he turned, despite their reservations. On Istvaan 5 they saw the depths of depravity to which the Emperors Children had sunk and rejected this. Disgusted by the traitor legionnaires but also horrified by the wave of religious superstition spreading across the Imperium in reaction to the threat of Horus as people embraced the Lectitio Divinitatus, they turned their backs on both factions. Now they fight anyone/thing they encounter: traitor, loyalist, xenos. They still cling to the ideals of the Great Crusade and Imperial Truth, hoping that one day the religious fanatics of Imperium and Chaos will annihilate each other and mankind will rise again from the ashes but they are really just lost relics of an age that is dead.

 

I found that "Legion" really revived my interest after the pathetic excuse for fluff we got lumbered with in the last Chaos Codex.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'd always thought that the visions were true, or at least the one of the shrine-world is, its just that Horus doesn't have the full truth of it explained to him. He's told "This is what will happen if things keep going the way they are", what he isn't told is that "things the way they are" include him turning traitor, something he was told would change it, therefore strengthening the truthfulness of the vision.

[Senseilord Ashahara]

"They still cling to the ideals of the Great Crusade and Imperial Truth"

 

Ten Thousand years is a long time to brood.

 

Death to the Corpse Emperor and his holy fools.

Death to to our fallen and decadent 'brothers'.

 

Mea nominis Alpharius

[Inquisitor Kravin]

"They still cling to the ideals of the Great Crusade and Imperial Truth"

 

Ten Thousand years is a long time to brood.

 

Death to the Corpse Emperor and his holy fools.

Death to to our fallen and decadent 'brothers'.

 

Mea nominis Alpharius

 

A long time indeed. Can we begin to imagine quite how bitter and twisted they must be by now? Now they kill the very people they once tried to save. Nobody wants to think of themselves as bad. Even the people considered irredeemably evil in the real world didn't conciously choose to be "bad". Evil is a value judgement made by observers. My Alpha Legion believe themselves to be good but misunderstood. The Inquisition (who by the way, destroy planets) consider them to be evil. It's up to you how you judge them.

 

It's not actually ten thousand years for them. The Heresy was 10,000 years ago by Terran reckoning. With no planet to call home they roam the galaxy in their fleet. Warp travel and relativistic time-dilation in realspace mean that they have experienced about 4,000 years since the Heresy. Still a very long time.

[Contaminus]

Or just propaganda since no official source definitively states that it happened and Gulliman never claimed to have killed Alpharius, it was just one Ultramarine subsequently judged a heretic who told the story. :P

 

It was an Inquisitor and not an Ultramarine who spread the rumours (or facts) of Alpharius/Omegon's death at the hands of Guilliman. Said Inquisitor was later thought to be a traitor and an operative of the Alpha Legion who had been planted solely to contaminate the Imperium's data-banks on the Alpha Legion with misinformation. The Ultramarines themeselves take the story of Alpharius' death with a degree of scepticism. So quit portraying the noble Ultramarines as arrogant, lying jerkwads. ;)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

So quit portraying the noble Ultramarines as arrogant, lying jerkwads. -_-

 

But then they lose all their flavor and become mediocre, pretentious children. ;) :lol:

 

That was one of the things that had me scratching my head in Legion: why did everyone just accept that the Cabal was right? I mean, you've got this group of aliens who say that they can see the future and that humanity is going to herald the victory of Chaos over the Materium, and they say that humanity can save the galaxy if it sacrifices itself on the altar to stop Chaos. . .okay, so what? Furthermore, how about everyone sacrifice themselves on the altar to stop Chaos, that sound like a bad idea? I like to think that Alpharius/Omegon were aware of the possibility that the Cabal wasn't telling the whole story, and certainly not telling it in any way that would make them liable for any responsibility in this even as they shoehorn humanity into extinction for "the greater good" (cue eerie music here, maybe the Cabal tech-boosted the Tau because humanity stalemated itself), so when they "turned", they probably left plenty of outs to cover their reasoning; even Horus would provide an elegant excuse if he lost. I don't believe their actual fall came about until after the fight with the Ultramarines; I fully believe Guilliman killed one of the two Alpharii, and it drove the other one a little nuts.

[Lay]

It was an Inquisitor and not an Ultramarine who spread the rumours (or facts) of Alpharius/Omegon's death at the hands of Guilliman. Said Inquisitor was later thought to be a traitor and an operative of the Alpha Legion who had been planted solely to contaminate the Imperium's data-banks on the Alpha Legion with misinformation.

Inquisitor Kravin didn't spead any rumors concerning the death of Alpharius. The data was originally from an Ultramarines log and was later included in Kravins own work.

The Ultramarines themeselves take the story of Alpharius' death with a degree of scepticism.

They better do. :lol:

 

 

 

Ten Thousand years is a long time to brood.

 

Death to the Corpse Emperor and his holy fools.

Death to to our fallen and decadent 'brothers'.

 

Mea nominis Alpharius

That's the spirit. Hydra Dominatus!

[Contaminus]

I don't believe their actual fall came about until after the fight with the Ultramarines; I fully believe Guilliman killed one of the two Alpharii, and it drove the other one a little nuts.

 

That's not a bad theory actually: Guilliman kills one of the two primarchs (my money would be on Alpharius tbh) and it turns the other mad with grief as in the world of secrecy that the Alpha Legion force themselves to live in, his twin primarch would've been the only person he could properly talk to. The hatred of the Ultramarines expands into a hatred of other marines and from there to the Imperium the marines stand for. It's a short step from hatred of your brothers to the tempting path of Chaos.

 

Inquisitor Kravin didn't spead any rumors concerning the death of Alpharius. The data was originally from an Ultramarines log and was later included in Kravins own work.

 

Source?

[Lay]

^ The source is the Index Astartes article.

 

The part that deals with Alpharius' death on Eskrador is written from the point of view of an Ultramarine who recorded it in his personal log. Kravin later published it in a diatribe called "Lessons Of Strive".

The credibility of the log has been doubted but Kravin himself didn't create it.

[Contaminus]

^ The source is the Index Astartes article.

 

The part that deals with Alpharius' death on Eskrador is written from the point of view of an Ultramarine who recorded it in his personal log. Kravin later published it in a diatribe called "Lessons Of Strive".

The credibility of the log has been doubted but Kravin himself didn't create it.

 

And how do we know that the good Inquisitor didn't forge the log? :D

[Lay]

Well.. erm.. I guess we'll be going to round in circles if we continue to discuss this point any further. B)

 

Anyway, makes me wonder why the Ultramarines would question the viability of a source that states something that they don't deny in the first place: Alpharius' Death.

 

Too bad that there isn't a second point of view in this story similiar to the "Iron Cage" incident.

[Rain]

Even if there was a "second opinion" would it really differ that much from the first? Methinks it would go something like this:

 

Imperial Official: In a great and inspired victory by the grace and guidance of the Immortal Emperor, Lord Gulliman has slain the vile heretic Alpharius!

 

Oddly tall Alpha Legionnaire: Uh yes, Alpharius is very definitely dead, in fact the entire Alpha Legion has been wiped out. In fact, I am an Ultramarine and I have been sanctioned by the divine Emperor to take control of this planet on his behalf.

[kil78]

Even if there was a "second opinion" would it really differ that much from the first? Methinks it would go something like this:

 

Imperial Official: In a great and inspired victory by the grace and guidance of the Immortal Emperor, Lord Gulliman has slain the vile heretic Alpharius!

 

Oddly tall Alpha Legionnaire: Uh yes, Alpharius is very definitely dead, in fact the entire Alpha Legion has been wiped out. In fact, I am an Ultramarine and I have been sanctioned by the divine Emperor to take control of this planet on his behalf.

 

pure awsome

 

also IMHO the new reason for turning is much better then the old which always just seemed like a weaker version of the world eaters one.

[Brother Aristeo]

Everybody seems so sure about the ending, but I found it to be vague and unclear. It posed more questions than answers (rather fitting for the Alpha Legion). Maybe they're leaving it open for another book since this one takes place before the Heresy...or maybe we have to fill in the blanks.

 

I think that after receiving the Acuity, Alpharius and Omegon rejected the Cabal's 2 options and went with option C: to let humanity live without being utterly destroyed by Chaos.

They've been working towards that goal for 10,000 years by creating cults within the Imperium based after their own ideals.

 

I don't think the Legion embraced Chaos like the rest of the Traitors, but rather accepted it as a necessary evil. They knew that a Utopian ideal was unrealistic. The Acuity showed them that destroying Chaos was unrealistic as well, since it meant sacrificing Humanity.

 

In the 41st millennium, you're either a slave to the Imperial machine or a slave to darkness. The Alpha Legion has rejected both of these choices as well, instead trying to find equilibrium.