The Astartes Vocates

[Heru]

Clockface Zodiac:

I understand this perfectly. For anyone in the U.S. (mainly) there is a show by the name of Lost. I was watching it a couple of weeks ago, and in the particular episode, a character by the name of Desmond transports back and forth from the past to the present. He forgets everyone in the present, and thinks it is 1996, but in reality it is 2005 or such. The only way he finally can calm himself and figure out a way to stay in the present time, is to find a constant.

That show is shown in the UK too, in fact I believe our episodes run at the same time (ie we aren't three episodes - a season behind).

It does? I guess... to me I guess the Wolf has connotations of ferocity. It's a pack animal, so you get ideas of brotherhood, but also an almost feral nature. Hrm...

"A wolf without a pack is either a survivor or a brute."

"All X know how to kill, training teaches them what to kill."

[Tyrannicide]

Heru, that scheme looks pretty close to what I was thinking, minus the orange helmet, and chest icons.

 

As far as, the Alpha Wolves go, what about the Alpha Hounds? It sure is different. :)

[Heru]

Heru, that scheme looks pretty close to what I was thinking, minus the orange helmet, and chest icons.

Edited.

 

As far as, the Alpha Wolves go, what about the Alpha Hounds? It sure is different. :P

Alpha Wolves is better.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm inclined to agree with Nine. Though I'm still waiting for progress on the Chapter itself. :)

 

I'm hoping to do some work on the Harvesters today.

[Barret]

I'm not at all worried about the scheme just yet. And as for the name, I prefer Alpha Wolves. Dogs and hounds are subservient, cowardly, scavenging animals. Wolves are loyal to the pack, yet also feral and unforgiving. Plus, the way male wolves fight for status and territory is a lot like the strong meritocracy the chapter practices.

 

Hem. Personal objections to that statement aside (/has many dogs), when I said that I prefered using "dogs" over "wolves" I was thinking of how Napoleon's base-born generals and officers were often referred to as his "mongrels". Scrappy, tough, hard-bitten and hard-biting, they may not have been of noble birth or particularly nice people, but damn if they couldn't win wars (until Wellington and his crew of gutter-fighters showed up, at least).

 

Personally, I think you should steer clear of wolves and wolfy themes, just because they've been pretty comprehensively covered by the Space Wolves. Beyond that, some of the things you were talking about, with the rough-and-ready Terran Marine inspiration and the combat drugs, are to my mind less of the (fairly inaccurate) popular image of wolves and much more like junkyard-guarding, pit-fighting, throat-grabbing dogs. They're fiercely loyal to their master, but if you so much as look at him funny they'll rip your arm off. Just my thoughts, anyway. :P

[Commissar Molotov]

But this is the issue. (At least, the issue I'm going to moan about in this post. :P) A 'Wolf' Chapter doesn't need to evoke "Wolfy themes". They don't need to hunt in packs, they don't need to smell like wolves, they don't need to turn into werewolves, they don't need to wear wolf-pelts, they don't need a homeworld that has wolves on it. It's like with every single bad Dragon-based Chapter. (There must be so many dragons in the Imperium, I swear...)

 

He could call them the Alpha Wolves and then basically never mention wolves again. The name is all that's needed to evoke the idea of being dominant. Like silverback gorillas - the top of the tribe, and planning to stay that way.

[Commissar Molotov]

Discussing with Sigismund Himself today, we talked about the Honour Company, tasked with hunting down the Harvesters.

 

I actually was thinking about the Sublimators being one of the most involved in the Honour Company. After all, the Sublimators IA suggests that the Chapter's dispatched half a Battle-Company to the fight.

 

The other thing I was considering was that perhaps one of the other Vocates Chapters refuses to be involved in the Honour Company, deciding to hunt the Harvesters down themselves. Just as the Second Swearing unites the Vocates Chapters, it breaks them again. I'm not saying "For the next three thousand years, this Chapter only fights the Harvesters." - I'm saying that they decide not to join the Honour Company, but instead dispatch forces of their own to do it.

 

It raises interesting ideas - two Vocates forces assaulting the Harvesters, competing. Of course, part of the idea is to make some more of the relationships (good and bad) between the Chapters. We might be called 'Oathbrethren' but that doesn't mean that they need to be buddy-buddy. Some of the Chapters of the Vocates would hate eachother. The Company unites us, but it doesn't mean things are perfect all the time. We're all united to restore and preserve honour. (Hence, HONOUR Company). Every innocent the Harvesters kill is a stain on the oath all the Chapters swore.

 

I was actually thinking the Alpha Wolves here. I like the idea of them pitting themselves against all ten other Chapters in a sort of 'competition'. And of course they'd be doing (killing) other things, but I like the idea of them trying to hunt down the Harvesters and perhaps obfuscating the relationships within the Oathbrethren.

 

--------------------------------------

 

The other thing which I thought would be cool to do would be to resurrect the 'opinions' thread at some stage. I don't want to get too busy, especially given that we've only got the one thread, but it might be very cool to work out the various 'factions' within the Vocates. Who the ringleaders are, what each Chapter thinks of their brothers.

 

I found these in the depths of my hard-drive:

 

”Ah yes, the Castigators...It has been nigh on half-a-century since I have last seen one of their battle-brothers. Many words come to mind when describing them, though subtle certainly isn’t one of them. They are brazen fools, quick to anger and even quicker to parade themselves as first among equals. More than anything though, even I admit that their zeal in battle is almost unmatched. The sheer tenacity of the Castigators has surprised me on many an occasion, and while difficult to deal with in the best of times, there are few forces in the Imperium I’d rather do battle against His foes alongside."

- Lord Amathaon, Angels of Perdition Chapter Master

 

"The Castigators are some of the most zealous warriors I have had the honour to fight with but do not always see common sense. They are very proud and will always try to be the leader. Give them the impression of this while you co-ordinate your squads to use their zeal as a weapon. Let them take the full brunt of the attack while you cut the enemy down from the sides and behind."

- Sibus, Second Chapter Master of the Sublimators

 

 

 

 

 

[Sigismund Himself]

"The Castigators are among the most zealous warriors I have had the honour to fight with but do not always see the basic tactical and strategic needs inherent in the situation. They are extremely proud and will always consider themselves the leaders of the pack. Give them the impression of this while you co-ordinate your forces. Use their zeal as a weapon. Let them take the full brunt of the attack while you cut the enemy down from the sides and behind."

Captain Oltan of the Sublimators, Master of the Marches

 

The clockface is a cool concept and I like the way the Wolves are shaping up. Some more quotes on various chapters later.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm not sure I like the 'Leader of the Pack' reference, Sig, especially given that that's the Alpha Wolves' shtick. However, thinking about it, the Sublimators are based around the idea of a council so they might naturally be disapproving of the idea of the 'one man' (Castigators) ruling. So there's an interesting interplay there. :)

 

Nine, I'm not sure about the whole 'serious incident' thing. You have to consider that pretty much all militaries - all Space Marine Chapters - are meritocracies. It's rare for a Space Marine to be promoted because of family relationships, class, status, etc - it's more likely that a Marine will be promoted to the Veterans based on his valour and his deeds.

 

With regards to the Alpha Wolves, the Elementals are perhaps a good analogy for the Astartes. The Circle of Equals is an interesting idea for this Chapter. They're continually trying to prove their strength - both individually and as a Chapter. For the non-Battletech Fans, this will tell you a little about the Elementals, and this ought to tell you about the various trials of combat.

 

That might work as a suggestion for something to incorporate in.

 

I also managed to dig up this quote from the old AV:

 

The Marines of the Chapter seek to test themselves by fighting the greatest threats to the Imperium. They believe that only by beating the strongest of enemies can they really prove themselves as warriors. They can be found in the gravest warzones across the Imperium. There have been many battles where apparent losses were turned into Imperial victories through the determined fighting of the [placeholder] Chapter.

 

Since the advent of the Tyranid Hive Fleets and the Tyrannic Wars, the chapter has applied itself to fighting against the Tyranids.

 

Despite fighting across the galaxy, the Chapter hails from a single world; a technologically advanced planet. The planet is aware of its status as a recruting world for the Astartes, and many families train their children to become warriors. Their attitudes being that their children either be recruited into the Chapter, or die trying. (NOTE: This was my attempt to apply the 'with it or on it' ethos, but without it being a total rip-off.) Failure is not tolerated when it comes to the Chapter. The planet's inhabitants believe that success only comes through being strong in faith and body. #

 

When a position in the Chapter's hierarchy is left vacant, the candidates fight in ceremonial duels so that the strongest attains the position. If a marine believes his superior to be lacking in strength, he may challenge him to a fight. If successful, the Challenger may take his opponent's rank and equipment. On the battlefield, Commanders often seek to test their strength (and justify their position) by finding the strongest enemy and defeating him.

 

It seems to me that glory and honour take a great import in this Chapter. Each Marine would beegging to take on the greatest threat, the most dangerous foe, the biggest threat. However, the 'greatest threat' would be relative to the experiences and prejudices to each Marine. A young inductee into the Chapter might see the biggest Tyranid as the greatest threat, being the most recent one to the Imperium and galaxy at large. However, a more experienced one might see Chaos as a more dangerous and prevalent threat.

So I've been thinking about a few things. One, is to perhaps have the idea of Crusading squads. A whole Chapter can Crusade, but what about on the squad level? If the Sparta route is introduced (which is, to be honest, a bit cliche) then they would work best not as individuals, but as a unit. Raised from the the beginning as a squad, each would wander the galaxy seeking honour and glory not only for themselves, but for the squad and Chapter. Individual honour would still be more important of course - one practical part of being in a squad is that there's always someone there to watch what you do, shout your praises to those that weren't there, and to remember the very cool way in which you died, if that happened.

 

I'm anxious that this Chapter doesn't simply run into a Hive Fleet and then die through attrition. I'm thinking that (gasp!) they do lose battles, sometimes. Perhaps they even retreat. That said, if they do retreat, the Commanding Officer would find himself open to accusations of poor leadership and a lack of skill, and could be challenged by one of his Sergeants. It's an interesting psychological element in this Chapter - a Captain can't afford to apply his force poorly, but he can't not fight, because then he'd be accused of being a coward.

 

The idea of the force splitting to face their perceived 'greatest threats' is a good one, but I'm not sure I can see a Chapter splitting down into forces as small as one squad. With regards to 'Sparta', I was thinking of simply taking the smallest part of their ideology, and mixing it as part of something far larger. I can see the idea of squads fighting together - it's an ideology I like greatly myself - but then there's also an element of personal honour and glory in this Chapter. After all, Marines can challenge for command. It's a meritocracy in action, I think. The greatest warrior can take over.

 

This Chapter sounds like it could use some inspiration from the Get of Fenris tribe of White Wolf's Werewolf: the Apocalypse game. The Get of Fenris pride themselves on being warriors, each willing to give their lives from youngest pup to oldest veteran. Other tribes make fun of them as being ignorant barbarians, but the Fenrir consider themselves the finest warriors of Gaia, and the other tribes lacking in strength.

 

Fenrir have a lot of inter Tribal rules, one of which concerns leadership. Fenrir law states that each Get of Fenris must obey their leader without question, because questioning leadership weakens the entire structure. If a Fenrir truly believes their leader to be weak, then they are to kill their leader and immediately assume command. Anything else is a punishable offense.

 

All leaders may be challenged at any time, except during wartime, where their word is to be followed to the letter (Unless the disagreer kills the leader).

 

Darrell's idea have a lot of potential. Don't really see Space Marines make battlefield executions of their commanders, but certainly, challenges out of wartime, or as a result of actions during wartime, could be a major part of the chapters idealogy. It could make for some impressive fluff, where young and impetious seargent challenges the captain after a tactical withdrawal. It promotes a harsh leadership style, something I think is fitting for the chapter.

 

In addition, as being crippled in battle is a failing of sorts, the chapter can eschew bionics, and have an ambivialent (sp?) relationship to dreadnoughts, and ofter prefer death, perhaps suiciding to prevent the shame of prosthetics or intombment.

 

As a natural consequence, I see a chapter with a higher turnover rate than other AV chapters, with young captains and chapter masters. Attrition will certainly be a complication, since chapter masters always have to struggle with holding the chapter back, and fighting to maintain his position, and avoid being seen as weak.

 

I can't say I'm a fan of the idea, really. Behaviour like that is what brought down the Sith Empire and stopped Takhisis from conquering Ansalon (yes, I'm a geek). I don't think it's really appropriate for Space Marines to be basing all their leadership decisions on dueling skills. I think that a certain amount of physical prowess being a requirement for advancement could work, but not "You made what I think is a bad choice, off with your head!".

 

Among the Clans in Mechwarrior, before a warrior could advance in rank, he had to fight alone against one or (many) more of his brethren. Perhaps something like that? To get from Scout to Marine, you have defeat a couple other Scouts. To get from Marine to Sergeant, you have to fight the other Sergeants in your Company. And to get into the 1st Company, well, it probably wouldn't be a balanced fight.

 

I think that focusing the proving of strength outwards, against the galaxy, is better than inwards against each other, as a Chapter that spent all its time and best fighters beating the snot out of each other wouldn't exactly get much done.

 

 

--edit--

 

However, I do kind of like the eschewing of bionics and extensive medical treatment. Better crippled in mind, then crippled in body, or something.

 

 

 

Barret, Warhammer 40K is full of self-destructive behavior and mistakes we know not to make even in the current day. From tank design to blind faith, the future is a dark place that doesn't make a lot of sense. Marines constantly fighting to prove their dominance isn't really that out of place amongst other drawbacks of the 41st millenium.

 

I wanted to bring up another point about the aforementioned Get of Fenris tribe that I didn't mention. The Fenrir admire and celebrate strength, and while they respect warriors first and foremost, they will also respect anyone who is a master of their chosen craft. They will praise a good storyteller just as eagerly as they will a skilled swordsman. The man who is able to wisely and fairly settle disputes will be as important to the Tribe as their strongest warrior. They admire strength in all its forms, and don't limit themselves merely to warrior worship.

 

Why not go back to basics then? I have lurked this topic for a week and really everyone seems to be making it overly complicated to represent strength. Boss Chicks and gladiators? Neh Eh. Space Marines would roll over them in less than a day, unless they were Nuns with Guns. And even then someone's getting their keyster kicked. Look at Conan the Barbarian. He became king because he was the baddest on the block. Spartans were considered the best in Greece, rivalling the Athenians, because of their highly militaristic society and focus on only the strong surviving.

 

Think of Strength in the 40K Space Marine pantheon as the ability to utterly crush your opponent, either by superior numbers or overwhelming skill.

 

So imagine this then (the following is an incohesive stream of free writing based on my revised chapter fluff);

 

A world on the edge of the Segmentum Pacificus, under "occupation" by "benevolent" xenos for the greater good. Imagine they took over because the Governor regent was a yutz and wanted to bargain and was weak and ineffectual. As a result the population gets bent over the barrel. This last for a couple of centuries, until the population decides enough is enough. Through out the centuries in secret, they have been training and studying the art of warfare preparing for such a day. Fill in butt whipping details here. As a result, the HLoT decree a chapter be made to protect that part of the galaxy from xenos invasion. Since only the strongest and hardiest men were selected to liberate the planet, they inherited it. Much like in starship troopers (book and movie) where the world was basically run by veterans. and only service grants you citizenship. In this case only the warrior elite rules this planet. So when the chapter began their recruitment, they chose this planet. boys are ritually inspected for defects and hardiness at birth. those who pass inspection are marked for service. Those who are deemed inferior become helots. At 6 the boys are sent to the barracks were their intial training begins.

 

Basically a whole society where the emphasis is on being the strongest and the most skilled with a sword. The warrior elite are worshipped. And only the strongest and most gifted become space marines...

 

focusing only on martial strength misses the point, focusing on anything is purity of purpose, and that's already been handled. The pure of strength chapter should be strong in all ways, they should understand strength in all it's facets and respect them all also.

 

I think the shortcoming of this chapter should be discipline. A heavy value of strength coupled with a manifest destiny ideology would cause the chapter to seek out only the greatest of enemies. Since the imperium is so full of enemies they'd likely break out of long term campaigns after crippling the enemy, always jetting off to down another famous heretic or brood and leaving a trail of half purged cults the like.

 

this factor is why a strict veteran world doesn't seem right to me.

[Lysimachus]

hi, going back up the page a bit, but was just reading what Commissar Molotov and Nine-Breaker were saying about the Purity of Mind chapter AOP

 

now i have to say that when i first saw the whole Librarian thing Mind=psychic, i thought (IMHO) it was a little obvious and also didn't fit with the other purities, which seem to me to be more about attitude than anything physically or mentally special, or that they could only really be represented by a very small percentage of the Chapter (even if you have a higher than normal number of libbys)and not the 'regular' brethren. no offence intended guys!

 

having said that, i've totally changed my opinion and really like the idea of using terror tactics etc.

perhaps a way for them to justify/include that kind of thing is making Purity of Mind mean something like 'Minds over Hearts', make them very logical, calculating and view any kind of emotion as a weakness that prevents them from doing what has to be done. because of this you could end up with a Chapter of 1000 stone-cold killers, all willing to use any tactics necessary ("Fear is a greater weapon than a thousand bolters!") or commit the most terrible atrocities if they see it as being the most ... (efficient is possibly the word i'm thinking of) ... course to take.

 

e.g. someone discovers a small hive/city has been infiltrated by a genestealer cult, several companies of the Chapter respond, and because they know that a cult of this type is most dangerous when it can ambush suddenly from within the populace, they decide it is most efficient to view the entire hive as enemies and begin a pogram of wiping out everyone to get to the cult. 1000's of innocent men, women and children are slaughtered but the cult is totally eradicated and because of the tactics they use its only at the cost of a handful of Space Marines, which to the Chapters cold logic (Purity of Mind) is a great victory.

 

also think as i think someone else said, the use of Librarians really fits nicely into the whole idea! great stuff!

 

anyway, as usual my mind is wandering after reading something i've enjoyed so (again as usual) feel free to ignore me if its :)

 

P.S. Nine-Breaker, please dont think i'm trying to hijack your baby, think the AOP are great! ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm going to leave Nine to discuss most of your quote, but I just want to pick up on a couple of issues.

 

now i have to say that when i first saw the whole Librarian thing Mind=psychic, i thought (IMHO) it was a little obvious

 

Well the AoP approach purity of mind in a couple of ways:

 

- Their initial rites for aspirants will emphasise having a strong mind to resist the depredations of Chaos.

- This is only enhanced by the 'shielding', the rite the Librarians undertake to implant reinforcements in the mind of the all the Brothers.

- They look down on those with weak minds. Those that can't resist the terrors of Chaos. Those that let the darkness fill them with fear. Those that turn from the distant light of the Emperor for transient pleasures.

- The terror tactics I discussed with Nine are also in part a way to show how they've developed an awareness of how to use the enemy's weak (fearful) minds against them.

 

and also didn't fit with the other purities, which seem to me to be more about attitude than anything physically or mentally special, or that they could only really be represented by a very small percentage of the Chapter (even if you have a higher than normal number of libbys)and not the 'regular' brethren. no offence intended guys!

 

Actually, I think you're right and wrong. At an earlier phase of the Vocates project we had something could 'Champions of Purity'. The idea being that each Chapter had a certain 'class' or group of people that could exemplify their purity.

 

The Castigators, (naturally :)) don't. Because every single Brother exemplifies purity of flesh.

The Execrators had Champions of Hate (Chaplains), but all their Marines hate.

The Judicators have the Balancers - their Captains, who dispense the Emperor's Judgement.

The Sublimators had the Chapter Council, who debated the purity of their actions(?)

 

So it's a case of both. Remember (as I've said in the Harvesters thread) that the Zodiac is something arbitrary, and not something these Chapters live by. But you can see the purities as both something of an attitude and as something physical and mental.

 

One way of looking at it in terms of the Clockface Zodiac would be that the Flesh/Mind cardinal points are 'physical/mental-based' whilst the Deed/Word cardinal points would be more 'attitude-based'.

 

With that said, the Castigators' focus on genetic purity is something that's affected them physically, mentally, even organisationally (with the loss of psychic librarians and their strained relationships with Navigators, Astropaths, other Chapters... even their own Techmarines).

[Barret]

Notes on the T-Swords' thoughts on other Vocates (some of this is probably a little out of date):

 

 

The Angels of Perdition

 

The Thousand Swords are probably aware that, like the Judicators, the Angels look somewhat poorly on some of the T-Swords' practices. Instead of being irritable about this, though, as they are with the Judicators, I think the T-Swords would probably be some secretly afraid of the Angels and what would happen if they ever got into the Fortress-Library on Carthago Nuevo. The T-Swords know that if the Judicators ever suspected them of heresy, it would be Trials and inquests and objective, but if it were the Angels, there would be no warning, no chance to explain.

 

Openly, however, the T-Swords would greatly respect the Angels' general hardness in combat, if not their mild lack of subtlety, and the Angels' respect for the importance of a Marines' mind.

 

 

The Castigators are the ones who initiated the Vocates, and are almost the de-facto leaders of the Oathbrethren, so they would be respected by the T-Swords for that. While the T-Swords would esteem the Castigators for their zeal and effectiveness, I think they might be a little put off by the Castigators' "wasting" of some very powerful tools, namely Librarians and the services provided by Techmarines.

 

 

Relations between the Thousand Swords and the Judicators became strained after the Judging of the Warlords and worsened after the Judicators began performing the Trials of Ordeal on their allies. Now, I know the T-Swords (or anyone else, really) aren't aware of the nature of the Trials. Instead, the T-Swords would see the Judicators begin becoming more aloof and suspicious of their brethren after the Fall of the FKs.

 

I don't think of this as outright emnity or dislike. More just that the T-Swords would be put out by the Judicators' behaviour. After all, the T-Swords and the rest of the Vocates have shown no signs of needing to be suspected. I don't see the T-Swords as having any problems fighting alongside the Judicators, they just wouldn't be overly friendly about it.

 

 

The Black Watch and the Thousand Swords fought together on Shamash, so the T-Swords have first-hand experience fighting alongside the armoured formations of the Black Watch and, because of that shared hardship, a deep respect for the Black Watch. When the Judicators, and perhaps others, became suspicious of or accusatory towards the Black Watch for being close with the Forge Knights, the Thousand Swords, like they did for the Warlords, spoke loudly in their defense, increasing the friction between the Thousand Swords and the Judicators.

 

 

Abydos, first Master of the T-Swords, respected the Warlords for their martial attitudes, if not for their empire-building ambitions. They didn't see anything wrong with the way the Warlords supressed the rebellions in their home system, and likely feel that the Warlords were unfairly punished for interfering with the petty ambitions of the Imperial beauracracy. I'm not sure yet how the T-Swords would view the Warlords now, except that they agree with the great cordon created to hold off the Tyranid advance, even though the T-Swords home planet was nearly inside that cordon.

 

 

I also had notes on the T-Swords' thoughts on the Forge Knights, but those are, obviously, invalid now.

 

 

Miscellaneous notes on ideas for name for the Spirit Chapter:

 

(Lords/Sons of) Desolation (Knights/Guards)

Apotheosists (?!) (not a huge fan)

Wings of Victory/Victory's Wing

 

Honestly, I'm kind of grasping at straws, so I'd appreciate help!

[Commissar Molotov]

I know for a fact that the Castigators see the Angels of Perdition as weak. They believe that they place too much faith in their Librarians - they are cold and distrustful towards them for that. Then there's the fact that they believe 'psychic shielding' is utterly inferior to the good old-fashioned armour of faith! (The faith that all 'true' Space Marines should rely in...)

 

But then, the Castigators are nice like that. ;) But whilst they're arrogant, heedless and bigoted I'd like to think I'm not, so I'd like opinions on what our method of progress should be. Barret was talking to me earlier about IA:AV - whilst I agree in the article as one of our key end-goals, it's obviously something we want to aim for. But we can't write it unless we have the Chapters to write about.

 

So obviously we need to detail:

 

- The First Swearing

- The Fall of the Reapers

- The post-fall purge.

- The Second Swearing

- The Honour Company/The Alpha Wolves breaking away.

- Maltheus and the Zodiac

- Relationships between the AV Chapters

- AV Campaigns (Zarath Strand, Symien, the Tau Campaign)

 

Thoughts? Does anyone have a preference as to what we should tackle first? I've got notes and ideas for most, so we can probably tackle anything.

[Sigismund Himself]

The Fall and Purge of the Reapers is what I think we should start with. That and a little more about Inquisitor Maltheus. I know I've already named one of his acolytes in my IA...

[Commissar Molotov]

Okay, I'm down with that. I'll work up the notes I have and post here shortly. ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

Part of the problem with the Vocates is that we don't have a date for the fourteenth founding. The only dubious context-related issue has been one transmission on the (now deleted) armageddon3 web-page, which inferred a date of 013.M36 for the thirteenth founding. Given that the 21st Founding happened at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that suggests... eight foundings happened in a millennium? Given that the site is down now and that no supporting evidence has ever surfaced, I think we can discount that anyway.

 

Regardless, the most secure way of 'future-proofing' the Vocates is to be vague about dates until after the age of Apostasy. After all, the 21st Founding is the next closest to the fourteenth and pretty much the only one we have reliable evidence for.

 

Previously, the Forge Knights were said to have fallen in 633.M38. I'm willing to keep that date as long as nobody has any strenuous objections to it.

 

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines. (Not that far-fetched, I guess. The 3rd Ed Codex: Space Marines has a note from a Silver Skulls apothecary remarking on a Marine whose biscopea grew too much, tearing his skeleton apart. The Apothecary writes '... a number of factors made it evident that, within a controlled framework, extraneous muscle growth could prove a worthwhile endeavour, in particular with a view to the creation of more effective assault warriors.')

 

Now, at some stage the Reapers' apothecary-cult was infected by Tzeentch. The idea seemed to fit with me - the initiation, etc - the way that the Apothecaries inculcate and pass their practices down to their unquestioning apprentices... plus, the idea is that the Apothecaries are architects of change - they turn 'mere' Humans into something akin to a God of War.

 

It seems Tzeentch would be attracted to that.

 

So, working out how the Reapers were infected could be useful. Or, it could be irrelevant. I can see it in both senses, in that sometimes you just have to accept the foundation, but I can see how people would want some depth in it. Either Tzeentch managed to corrupt an Apothecary, or the Chapter accidentally selected a Tzeentch-worshipper...? Eh. Thoughts on that welcome.

 

-

 

Anyway, at some stage it appeared the Apothecaries' experiments went too far. They were deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates. (Octavulg makes the point that typically Chaplains/Tenth Company Captains are depicted as 'selecting' recruits. In which case, perhaps the Apothecaries managed to corrupt these necessary figures to further their schemes.) Picking candidates they knew would react unfavourably to the gene-seed to create these bestial figures of war.

 

My feeling is that the Chapter Master tried to censure the Apothecaries. Whatever happened (input welcome) it erupted into bloodshed. A full-blown Chapter war between those loyal to the Chapter Master and those the Apothecaries had managed to corrupt. They quickly and calmy turned their test-subjects upon the loyalists, little caring who lived or died. The idea being that the Apothecaries would brook no interference into their 'vital' experiments.

 

The battle lasted (at least) three days before all the loyalists were over-run. Still, the loyalists would've taken great chunks out of the attackers. In that sense, the Reapers were 'purged' - by the Reapers. Before he died, the First Company Captain brought the wrath of the Imperium down upon them. I originally suggested he contacted the Inquisition, but it's also now more than likely he would've called the Oathbrethren to avenge their losses - their honour.

 

Okay.

 

So... next.

 

Barret has the Battle of Thermo-Pylon E. So, perhaps the Thousand Swords were the one Chapter able to encounter the Harvesters before they fled. (Something I read before suggested the Black Watch also fought on Shamash, Barret, so... perhaps the Black Watch encountered the Harvesters, too? You're welcome to input there.)

 

[The other available Oathbrethren would likely have tried to hunt down the Harvesters too, presumably with little luck.]

 

----

 

All I know next is that the Inquisition ordered purges of all the Hive Worlds the Reapers recruited from. Twelve, I think there were - the purges lasted two years and great swathes of those considered 'impure' (and that would be down to each Chapter's interpretations, I think - I can see the AoP killing a planetary governor for being weak-minded and therefore 'impure') as they sought to vent their rage, shame and grief.

 

Then there was the second swearing, where the eleven remaining Chapters sought to re-affirm their vows to one another. But as the bonds were being sworn, the Chapters were in the process of breaking away from each other. The Honour Company was set up, but at some point the Alpha Wolves decided to opt out of it, deciding they could hunt down the Harvesters themselves.

 

 

That's what I know thus far, so I'm willing to hear input on it.

 

Go nuts! ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

Okay, talking on MSN with Sigismund:

 

Sigismund Himself:

the way that the Apothecaries turn is difficult

Molotov:

Not overly. Primarchs were convinced to turn for less.

Sigismund Himself:

the tzeentch connection is hard to get without other noticing

Molotov:

What makes you say that, though? (Plus, part of the point is that people DID notice - hence the Chapter Master trying to stop them)

Sigismund Himself:

I just think it would have been noticed fairly early

Molotov:

But why?

Sigismund Himself:

as you say, chaplains are involved in the selection of recruits and I think that they would notice something. the Tenth Company Captain is less dificult to corrupt bu Chaplains?

Molotov:

*A* Chaplain is involved, and that's in a *standard* Chapter - as it is, we haven't detailed the Reapers enough to say either way. Plus, the Word Bearers were corrupted. Primarchs were corrupted. Disregarding the Grey Knights (and the Reapers certainly weren't GK) you can't say any Space Marine is incorruptible.

Molotov:

It just strikes me you seem to be saying "they'd be noticed outright" - but some Chaos worshippers keep it to themselves, especially if they've got "cunning plans" (like corrupting an entire Chapter? Or perhaps the Flesh-Smiths value their experiments more... hrm...) Plus, the Apothecaries are shrouded in ritual and misunderstanding, etc, etc. Especially in some Chapters, they could almost be considered blood-priests. Part of my reasoning was the way that most Marines wouldn't have much understanding of the Apothecary-Cult, so they wouldn't be able to say outright "Ah-hah! You're a Tzeentch worshipper!"

Sigismund Himself:

it's just the suspension of disbelief

Sigismund Himself:

why did they turn?

Sigismund Himself:

how did it spread throughout the rest of it?

Molotov:

Heh, everybody seems to be throwing "suspension of disbelief" at the moment in the Liber. We happily accept Horus, but not an Apothecary? (I'm kidding a little, but you hopefully get my point.) As for why they turned, my idea was partly it's scientific curiosity. If the Harvesters are based on anyone, it's Dr. Josef Mengele, one of the Nazi scientists at Auschwitz. He performed gruesome experiments just because he was curious.

Sigismund Himself:

ah, interesting concept

Molotov:

The power of Tzeentch, the power to warp and change flesh, allowed them to continue their experiments

Sigismund Himself:

would the Librarians of the chapter sense such power being used in their Fortress Monastery?

Molotov:

But they're somewhat different to Fabius Bile (who seems to be trying to recreate the Primarchs) - the Flesh-Smiths seem to be the kids that get a paint-set and mash their brushes and turn all the colours into the unsalvagable brown gloop.

Molotov:

The Librarians? Possible-ish. I mean, in the Iron Snakes book, there's a daemon in the Chapter House and nobody but Priad and Khiron know. Plus, I didn't see them as full-blown users of Tzeentchian power until the Chapter War. Until then I saw Tzeentch as whispering in their ears, informing their ideas, slowly working to undermine them. The Chapter Master declares war, and Tzeentch offers them

Molotov:

limitless power to continue their experiments, unchallenged, forever.

Sigismund Himself:

perhaps the alarm was raised by a loyal apothecary?

Sigismund Himself:

factions within the Apothecary cult

Molotov:

That's certainly a possibility. Although with the master/apprentice issue I raised before, I think the Flesh-Smiths would work wherever possible to eliminate troublesome elements. Friendly fire is a bitch like that.

Molotov:

That said, I haven't said (and don't know, as yet) how long the Change-cult festered away within the Apothecarion

Molotov:

I mean, I've intimated before the Chapter was too focused on other matters to care about the Apothecaries until too late. In the thread I've mentioned that Silver Skull Apothecary, talking about making better soldiers?

Molotov:

If the Apothecaries go "Chapter Master, we've got forty uber assault guys that'll kill stuff good." he might go "Huh? Neat." - it serves his purposes, doesn't seem to be doing anything bad to the Chapter...

Sigismund Himself:

maybe it happens over time until the marines taking to the field are literally beasts

Molotov:

Mhmm, my idea was that once the Chapter Master realises that the Apothecaries are selecting those that aren't pure to be implanted with the gene-seed, matters come to a head. I mean, from his point of view, if needed, he could wipe out all the Apothecaries. Unlike the Celestial Lions, he has allies within the Vocates who could help him

Sigismund Himself:

how did the Flesh Smiths win?

Molotov:

Well, my thoughts were that the Apothecaries might've been able to twist certain Marines within the Chapter. If a Marine has a serious injury, say, and gets sent to the Apothecarion... Plus, I think partly in the confusion of the Chapter War they might've been able to set some of the loyalists against each other "The Chapter Master's a traitor! Attack!" and so on. Perhaps dirty tricks, akin to the Crimson Fist fortress destruction. But also, lots of mutants. My idea was that the Apothecarion is almost a discrete element, somewhere that not everyone wonders through and examines - so there might be huge cell-blocks filled with 'experiments' and the like. I also think that the Apothecarion must have a number of Chapter Serfs and Servitors -medical assistants and the like - they would be fanatical to the Apothecary-cult, perhaps. (And certainly easier to turn)

Sigismund Himself:

so the remaining warriors are now totally loyal to the Flesh Smiths, not questioning that the Imperium is hunting them and that mutants are fighting by their side? perhaps there's a second purge by the Harvestors within their own ranks

Molotov:

Perhaps, although thinking about it...

Molotov:

the Apothecaries are responsible for psycho-indoctrinating new recruits: the tutelary engines that implant information deep within the minds of new neophytes...

Sigismund Himself:

a hidden trigger to unleash the minds of monsters?

[Sigismund Himself]

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines.

Anyway, at some stage it appeared the Apothecaries' experiments went too far. They were deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates.

Which were they doing? I think there's a distinction but maybe it's just me. Geneseed meddling is a very serious matter that can carry on throughout the chapter while the experiments on scouts is still serious but not as threatening as long as some of the recruits are still ok.

 

I can see it in both senses, in that sometimes you just have to accept the foundation, but I can see how people would want some depth in it.

Half of me says that you shouldn't detail it but half of me is saying that I won't accept the chapter without it.

 

All I know next is that the Inquisition ordered purges of all the Hive Worlds the Reapers recruited from. Twelve, I think there were - the purges lasted two years and great swathes of those considered 'impure' (and that would be down to each Chapter's interpretations, I think - I can see the AoP killing a planetary governor for being weak-minded and therefore 'impure') as they sought to vent their rage, shame and grief.

One world for each chapter? Seems a little neat. Perhaps some co operation is needed on some worlds? Enemies within the group having to bond together after the Fall?

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I’ve got an idea about the beginning of Reapers genetic corruption. Maybe chapters believes promoted the recruitment of the most aggressive boys and many of those selected by chaplains had double Y chromosome. First Apothecaries rejected them as unsuitable but later with the corruption of their minds they started to experiment implanting those recruits with chapters geneseed. After that it was a slippery slope.

[Heru]

Given that the 21st Founding happened at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that suggests...

Ugh I thought the 21st came before the Age of Apostasy... that's definitely going to play hell with my Black Falcons fluff if it was after, and not before...

 

 

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines. (Not that far-fetched, I guess. The 3rd Ed Codex: Space Marines has a note from a Silver Skulls apothecary remarking on a Marine whose biscopea grew too much, tearing his skeleton apart. The Apothecary writes '... a number of factors made it evident that, within a controlled framework, extraneous muscle growth could prove a worthwhile endeavour, in particular with a view to the creation of more effective assault warriors.')

Have you perchance read the Horus Heresy book Fulgrim? Sounds allot like the Emperor's Children (specifically Fabius Bile's fall into madness)...

[Ferrata]

The 21st Founding was in M36, but no precise year is mentioned. The Age of Apostasy occured between 200 and 288.M36, so the Cursed Founding could have occured before or after the AoA. I have always thought it occured before, during a time when the Imperium was unstable, which makes most sense to me. Although, a reasonable arguement could be made fo after.

[Heru]

The 21st Founding was in M36, but no precise year is mentioned. The Age of Apostasy occured between 200 and 288.M36, so the Cursed Founding could have occured before or after the AoA. I have always thought it occured before, during a time when the Imperium was unstable, which makes most sense to me. Although, a reasonable arguement could be made fo after.

Yeah I'd always thought that the failure of the 21st Founding was one of the reasons the Age of Apostasy was so bad (some 21st Foundling Chapters being unable to fufil their duties because of Geneseed malfunctions and the like, leaving huge holes in the Imperium's defences etc).

[Ferrata]

Yeah I'd always thought that the failure of the 21st Founding was one of the reasons the Age of Apostasy was so bad (some 21st Foundling Chapters being unable to fufil their duties because of Geneseed malfunctions and the like, leaving huge holes in the Imperium's defences etc).

Not really as the Age of Apostasy was an internal war more than anything, an internal which the Astartes kept out of bar the Seige of Terra Part 2 at the end. Yes, the enemies of mankind took advantage of this internal war to make some ground, but a high majority of the damage was done by the Imperium upon the Imperium.

[Commissar Molotov]

I meant to say before. I believe it's during the initial years of the Age of Apostasy, but I was trying to hammer out the post quickly. I would say it's before the AoA. What I mean to say is that from the Age of Apostasy onwards, we're allowed to use dates.

 

Sig - with regards to 'altering gene-seed' - I'll explain it on MSn when I catch you, or when I have a little more energy. :drool:

[Heru]

Yeah I'd always thought that the failure of the 21st Founding was one of the reasons the Age of Apostasy was so bad (some 21st Foundling Chapters being unable to fufil their duties because of Geneseed malfunctions and the like, leaving huge holes in the Imperium's defences etc).

Not really as the Age of Apostasy was an internal war more than anything, an internal which the Astartes kept out of bar the Seige of Terra Part 2 at the end. Yes, the enemies of mankind took advantage of this internal war to make some ground, but a high majority of the damage was done by the Imperium upon the Imperium.

Except for instances like when the Fang was undersiege by someone who decided the AoA was the perfect time to build his own Empire...