The Astartes Vocates

[Sigismund Himself]

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines.

Anyway, at some stage it appeared the Apothecaries' experiments went too far. They were deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates.

Which were they doing? I think there's a distinction but maybe it's just me. Geneseed meddling is a very serious matter that can carry on throughout the chapter while the experiments on scouts is still serious but not as threatening as long as some of the recruits are still ok.

 

I can see it in both senses, in that sometimes you just have to accept the foundation, but I can see how people would want some depth in it.

Half of me says that you shouldn't detail it but half of me is saying that I won't accept the chapter without it.

 

All I know next is that the Inquisition ordered purges of all the Hive Worlds the Reapers recruited from. Twelve, I think there were - the purges lasted two years and great swathes of those considered 'impure' (and that would be down to each Chapter's interpretations, I think - I can see the AoP killing a planetary governor for being weak-minded and therefore 'impure') as they sought to vent their rage, shame and grief.

One world for each chapter? Seems a little neat. Perhaps some co operation is needed on some worlds? Enemies within the group having to bond together after the Fall?

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I’ve got an idea about the beginning of Reapers genetic corruption. Maybe chapters believes promoted the recruitment of the most aggressive boys and many of those selected by chaplains had double Y chromosome. First Apothecaries rejected them as unsuitable but later with the corruption of their minds they started to experiment implanting those recruits with chapters geneseed. After that it was a slippery slope.

[Heru]

Given that the 21st Founding happened at the end of the Age of Apostasy, that suggests...

Ugh I thought the 21st came before the Age of Apostasy... that's definitely going to play hell with my Black Falcons fluff if it was after, and not before...

 

 

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines. (Not that far-fetched, I guess. The 3rd Ed Codex: Space Marines has a note from a Silver Skulls apothecary remarking on a Marine whose biscopea grew too much, tearing his skeleton apart. The Apothecary writes '... a number of factors made it evident that, within a controlled framework, extraneous muscle growth could prove a worthwhile endeavour, in particular with a view to the creation of more effective assault warriors.')

Have you perchance read the Horus Heresy book Fulgrim? Sounds allot like the Emperor's Children (specifically Fabius Bile's fall into madness)...

[Ferrata]

The 21st Founding was in M36, but no precise year is mentioned. The Age of Apostasy occured between 200 and 288.M36, so the Cursed Founding could have occured before or after the AoA. I have always thought it occured before, during a time when the Imperium was unstable, which makes most sense to me. Although, a reasonable arguement could be made fo after.

[Heru]

The 21st Founding was in M36, but no precise year is mentioned. The Age of Apostasy occured between 200 and 288.M36, so the Cursed Founding could have occured before or after the AoA. I have always thought it occured before, during a time when the Imperium was unstable, which makes most sense to me. Although, a reasonable arguement could be made fo after.

Yeah I'd always thought that the failure of the 21st Founding was one of the reasons the Age of Apostasy was so bad (some 21st Foundling Chapters being unable to fufil their duties because of Geneseed malfunctions and the like, leaving huge holes in the Imperium's defences etc).

[Ferrata]

Yeah I'd always thought that the failure of the 21st Founding was one of the reasons the Age of Apostasy was so bad (some 21st Foundling Chapters being unable to fufil their duties because of Geneseed malfunctions and the like, leaving huge holes in the Imperium's defences etc).

Not really as the Age of Apostasy was an internal war more than anything, an internal which the Astartes kept out of bar the Seige of Terra Part 2 at the end. Yes, the enemies of mankind took advantage of this internal war to make some ground, but a high majority of the damage was done by the Imperium upon the Imperium.

[Commissar Molotov]

I meant to say before. I believe it's during the initial years of the Age of Apostasy, but I was trying to hammer out the post quickly. I would say it's before the AoA. What I mean to say is that from the Age of Apostasy onwards, we're allowed to use dates.

 

Sig - with regards to 'altering gene-seed' - I'll explain it on MSn when I catch you, or when I have a little more energy. :drool:

[Heru]

Yeah I'd always thought that the failure of the 21st Founding was one of the reasons the Age of Apostasy was so bad (some 21st Foundling Chapters being unable to fufil their duties because of Geneseed malfunctions and the like, leaving huge holes in the Imperium's defences etc).

Not really as the Age of Apostasy was an internal war more than anything, an internal which the Astartes kept out of bar the Seige of Terra Part 2 at the end. Yes, the enemies of mankind took advantage of this internal war to make some ground, but a high majority of the damage was done by the Imperium upon the Imperium.

Except for instances like when the Fang was undersiege by someone who decided the AoA was the perfect time to build his own Empire...

[Commissar Molotov]

What I've written thus far is that prior to the fall, the Apothecary-cults of the Reapers began to experiment with deliberately altering gene-seed to promote stronger Marines.

Anyway, at some stage it appeared the Apothecaries' experiments went too far. They were deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates.

Which were they doing? I think there's a distinction but maybe it's just me. Geneseed meddling is a very serious matter that can carry on throughout the chapter while the experiments on scouts is still serious but not as threatening as long as some of the recruits are still ok.

 

Okay, with regards to 'deliberately altering gene-seed, that's a misnomer, at least straight away. To my mind, the 'increased muscle mass' thing, as evidenced by the Silver Skulls Apothecary, is actually a case of hormones rather than anything else. One of the White Dwarfs (which I don't have to hand) mentions how the Apothecaries are responsible for ensuring the organs grow properly, maintaining the delicate hormonal balance of Marines, etc.

 

In this case it strikes me that it'd just be a case of stimulating the biscopea to grow more muscle, etc. That's not 'altering gene-seed', per se.

 

The issue of deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates is that the gene-seed is likely to change and alter as a result. My understandings have always been that the progenoid glands absorb hormonal information, etc, over the course of years in a Marine's life, and that's how mutations can pass down.

 

So when you say "It is A or B?" I'm left saying "Well, they meant B, but by doing C they do A in a roundabout way."

 

 

Half of me says that you shouldn't detail it but half of me is saying that I won't accept the chapter without it.

 

Exactly, it's one of those quandries. I'll detail it to a degree.

 

All I know next is that the Inquisition ordered purges of all the Hive Worlds the Reapers recruited from. Twelve, I think there were - the purges lasted two years and great swathes of those considered 'impure' (and that would be down to each Chapter's interpretations, I think - I can see the AoP killing a planetary governor for being weak-minded and therefore 'impure') as they sought to vent their rage, shame and grief.

One world for each chapter? Seems a little neat. Perhaps some co operation is needed on some worlds? Enemies within the group having to bond together after the Fall?

 

I hadn't considered that -- the fact that there's twelve worlds and eleven Vocates Chapters. I just wanted the reapers to have recruited from a dozen or so systems. I'll leave it up to Barret and Nine as to what they want to do about the Purge - whether it should be one planet per system or what.

[Nine_Breaker]

I hadn't considered that -- the fact that there's twelve worlds and eleven Vocates Chapters. I just wanted the reapers to have recruited from a dozen or so systems. I'll leave it up to Barret and Nine as to what they want to do about the Purge - whether it should be one planet per system or what.

Did the Reapers only recruit from the hive worlds in these systems? To me, it seems that hive worlds aren't really all over the place, so in a dozen or so systems there might only be four or five hive worlds. I actually like the imagery of the loyalist Vocates having to fight hordes of mutants and degenerate beasts in steamy jungles, on frozen lakes, in the shadows of titanic mountains, as well as in the confines of hive cities.

 

Also, I don't think we need to detail the battles fought over every single planet. Some key battles that bring out the main themes of the chapters and are examples of how they think and fight should be enough. Plus, writing up exactly how the Vocates took back every single one the worlds corrupted by the Reapers would take ages.

[Hasoroth]

Half of this doesn't make sense to me, so here are some questions I'd like y'all to clarify:

 

1) Is this something like Aegyptus? As in, forum made group of Chapters to give it that awesome feel? (I couldn't think of a better word :()

2) What exactly is the difference between Spirit and Faith?

3) When were the Adeptus Praeses founded?

[Commissar Molotov]

1] Uh, it's somewhat like the Aegytpus Astartes, yes. The thing with the Aegyptus Astartes (and the latter Draco Astartes) project were that they were very tenuously bound. The Aegytpus Astartes was a group of Chapters with Egyptian themes. Unfortunately, they began to collapse under the weight of their own fluff. I seem to recall thirty or forty Egyptian themed Chapters clustered within a very, very small area of space.

 

The Draco Astartes was best described by Barret as "YOU HAZ DRAGONS? I HAZ DRAGONS!" - Bascially, a bunch of Dragon-themed Chapters. They began to collapse, again, when they started to create a big dragon-themed conspiracy beneath the Astartes, all linking back to 'the Dragon' - the C'Tan supposedly on Mars. Even the Salamanders were involved!

 

The Vocates is a group of twelve Chapters created in the fourteenth founding that gathered together to swear oaths of loyalty, dedication and protection to the Imperium. In the millennia since, the brotherhood has been strained by many tests - not least of which was one of the Chapters falling to Chaos.

 

 

2] You'd need to talk to Barret, who's writing the Spirit Chapter. Basically:

 

spir·it /ˈspɪrɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[spir-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.

2. the incorporeal part of humans: present in spirit though absent in body.

3. the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.

4. conscious, incorporeal being, as opposed to matter: the world of spirit.

5. a supernatural, incorporeal being, esp. one inhabiting a place, object, etc., or having a particular character: evil spirits.

6. a fairy, sprite, or elf.

7. an angel or demon.

8. an attitude or principle that inspires, animates, or pervades thought, feeling, or action: the spirit of reform.

9. (initial capital letter) the divine influence as an agency working in the human heart.

10. a divine, inspiring, or animating being or influence. Num. 11:25; Is. 32:15.

11. (initial capital letter) the third person of the Trinity; Holy Spirit.

12. the soul or heart as the seat of feelings or sentiments, or as prompting to action: a man of broken spirit.

13. spirits, feelings or mood with regard to exaltation or depression: low spirits; good spirits.

14. excellent disposition or attitude in terms of vigor, courage, firmness of intent, etc.; mettle: That's the spirit!

15. temper or disposition: meek in spirit.

16. an individual as characterized by a given attitude, disposition, character, action, etc.: A few brave spirits remained to face the danger.

17. the dominant tendency or character of anything: the spirit of the age.

18. vigorous sense of membership in a group: college spirit.

19. the general meaning or intent of a statement, document, etc. (opposed to letter): the spirit of the law.

20. Chemistry. the essence or active principle of a substance as extracted in liquid form, esp. by distillation.

21. Often, spirits. a strong distilled alcoholic liquor.

22. Chiefly British. alcohol.

23. Pharmacology. a solution in alcohol of an essential or volatile principle; essence.

24. any of certain subtle fluids formerly supposed to permeate the body.

25. the Spirit, God.

–adjective

26. pertaining to something that works by burning alcoholic spirits: a spirit stove.

27. of or pertaining to spiritualist bodies or activities.

–verb (used with object)

28. to animate with fresh ardor or courage; inspirit.

29. to encourage; urge on or stir up, as to action.

30. to carry off mysteriously or secretly (often fol. by away or off): His captors spirited him away.

 

faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.

7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.

8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

—Idiom

9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

 

It's all in how you define the two. Or, rather, how Inquisitor Maltheus defined them. Barret's mirror-cult Chapter concentrates on improving their spirit, attempting to conduct themselves as the Emperor would, to reflect Him properly. Purity of Faith is something we're working on, again, but you could see it as somewhat like the Word Bearers.

 

3] The Astartes Praeses? They were a group of twenty Chapters assigned to defend the Eye of Terror. The first known Chapter was created in the second founding, the White Consuls. Other Chapters (such as the Fire Claws/Relictors) were created in latter foundings.

[Hasoroth]

Ah ok, I was wondering because I'm working on the Subjugators IA in the Librarium (question, should a WIP DIY be in here or there?) and the scant fluff on them is that they are an Adeptus Praeses Chapter, and I figured y'all would know the founding date for them (lo and behold they weren't all created at once xD).

 

Thanks for the info, and I think I've sort of established the difference between Spirit and Faith. I characterized the Space Wolves as Spirit and the Dark Angels as Faith for my vocabulary :)

[Commissar Molotov]

The Subjugators have quite a bit of fluff - their actions in the Thirteenth Black Crusade, the Technetium Belt, the Therrix suppression... but this thread isn't really the place for it. :P

 

 

Still, thanks for the interest on the Vocates! It should make some more sense as the thread draws to a close. :)

[Sigismund Himself]

Okay, with regards to 'deliberately altering gene-seed, that's a misnomer, at least straight away. To my mind, the 'increased muscle mass' thing, as evidenced by the Silver Skulls Apothecary, is actually a case of hormones rather than anything else. One of the White Dwarfs (which I don't have to hand) mentions how the Apothecaries are responsible for ensuring the organs grow properly, maintaining the delicate hormonal balance of Marines, etc.

 

In this case it strikes me that it'd just be a case of stimulating the biscopea to grow more muscle, etc. That's not 'altering gene-seed', per se.

 

The issue of deliberately selecting unfavourable candidates is that the gene-seed is likely to change and alter as a result. My understandings have always been that the progenoid glands absorb hormonal information, etc, over the course of years in a Marine's life, and that's how mutations can pass down.

 

So when you say "It is A or B?" I'm left saying "Well, they meant B, but by doing C they do A in a roundabout way."

Aye, I saw that after posting. I suppose my original intended question would be what was their intent? Did they mean to do something to the geneseed or were they unaware (unlikely)?

 

question, should a WIP DIY be in here or there?

It should be in here. You'll get a lot more replies here.

[Heru]

The Draco Astartes was best described by Barret as "YOU HAZ DRAGONS? I HAZ DRAGONS!" - Bascially, a bunch of Dragon-themed Chapters. They began to collapse, again, when they started to create a big dragon-themed conspiracy beneath the Astartes, all linking back to 'the Dragon' - the C'Tan supposedly on Mars. Even the Salamanders were involved!

I was staunchly against that bastarisation of the Draco Astartes... in the end I was the only person left from it so I made it just a number of Chapters who succeeded from each other and used Dragon imagery...

[Commissar Molotov]

Aye, I saw that after posting. I suppose my original intended question would be what was their intent? Did they mean to do something to the geneseed or were they unaware (unlikely)?

 

A good question. I think the phrase that best applies here is 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. They started out exploring the legitimate possibilities of producing better warriors, but their curiosity (and Tzeentch) got the best of them. I figure that Tzeentch can manipulate and twist the knife a little without the Apothecaries instantly sprouting horns and having eldritch lightning crackling around them. To my mind, the Apothecaries kept a very clean, calm exterior whilst their minds were in tumult. Like a true cult, they hid their intentions and they hid their identities, slowly subverting themselves and those around them. Curiosity got the better of them. And, I suppose, a certain degree of power. They had the power to change man into God. They were Astartes, enhanced to be superior. What could stop them?

 

When the Chapter Master did try to stop them, they reacted violently, angrily - how could someone interrupt their work?

 

So I'm certainly drawing a lot of inspiration from Mengele and Auschwitz, and the Nazi experiments on Human subjects. That sense that curiosity, the power of a God, and the complete inability of anyone to stop them gave them free rein to do whatever they wanted. As the Flesh-Smiths, infused with the magicks of Chaos, that's only continued.

[Hasoroth]

Well, my thoughts were that the Apothecaries might've been able to twist certain Marines within the Chapter. If a Marine has a serious injury, say, and gets sent to the Apothecarion... Plus, I think partly in the confusion of the Chapter War they might've been able to set some of the loyalists against each other "The Chapter Master's a traitor! Attack!" and so on. Perhaps dirty tricks, akin to the Crimson Fist fortress destruction. But also, lots of mutants. My idea was that the Apothecarion is almost a discrete element, somewhere that not everyone wonders through and examines - so there might be huge cell-blocks filled with 'experiments' and the like. I also think that the Apothecarion must have a number of Chapter Serfs and Servitors -medical assistants and the like - they would be fanatical to the Apothecary-cult, perhaps. (And certainly easier to turn)

 

Tzeentch

Hypno-Indoctrination

Flesh-Smiths / Apothecaries

Mutants with Geneseed

 

Right, so we know that Chaplains are involved in the creation of new recruits, to test their faith, the same with Librarians to screen for psychic talent. Now, what if Librarian A of the Reapers/Harvesters started to be swayed by Tzeentch, and began passing on unsuitable recruits as well as corrupting Apothecaries? As for forming a loyal Cadre of Chapter Veterans who weren't mutated, perhaps a) when wounded they got treated with some hypno-therapy and/or B) mental compulsion from corrupted Librarian A?

 

A rough idea.

 

Also, kudos for the Reapers falling to Tzeentch. I second the comment that its refreshing to see a loyalist Chapter to fall to one of the least used quarter of the Chaos pantheon.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm averse to the Librarians for a couple of reasons. The first is the way that, with the Castigators, I have to decry all psykers as warp-spawned witches. The second is the way that in 99% of traitor DIYs, it's the Librarian that falls. In 99% of DIY Chapters that use 'Have Faith in Suspicion', it's because a Librarian turned to Chaos and the Chapter had a civil war.

 

Librarians can be staunch, stalwart defenders of the Imperial faith. I can imagine the Librarium of the Reapers going to war in the defence of their Chapter as all these monstrosities spill forth from the Apothecarion. I like that irony - everyone expects the Librarians to fall, and ultimately the fall originated with those in charge of maintaining the Chapter's purity. That's something that's all the more evocative within the confines of the Astartes Vocates project.

[Hasoroth]

Did I say Librarian? I meant a corrupted Chaplain! (Dun dun dun!). Enough political clout within the Chapter to pass on recruits, to protect the Apothecaries, and to sway the old timers who have fought countless battles with him. It also fits in with the irony theme, that those responsible for a Chapters purity were the ones who turned.

 

And the thing with Librarians is that they really are the weakest link. Psykers are massive bonfires that attract the flies of Chaos. Ah well, I need to think up of a refreshing way for a Librarian to fall to Chaos.

[Commissar Molotov]

Oh, I'm not disputing that Librarians are the most likely to fall. But I'm not trying to make a typical or obvious Chapter here. As with most of my work, I'd hope (and like to think) that I'm trying to put original or distinctive spins on tried-and-tested themes. Hence why the Apothecaries hold so much interest for me. It's not something explored in Chaos fluff at all (aside from Fabius Bile, and he works in a different direction to my ideas.)

[Nine_Breaker]

Okay, after reading through that Battletech stuff, here's some more thoughts I like for the Alpha Wolves plus some of the old ones:

• Home world is a fortress world with a caste system.
  
• Children of the soldier caste compete for selection into the chapter. Those who fail are made into PDF/Guard.
  
• If a commander endangers his charge through incompetence or is seen as severely unfit for command, he may be challenged for his rank. by a subordinate. Thus, Alpha Wolf commanders often seek out the strongest enemies to test their strength and justify their rank.
  
• When a position in the Chapter's hierarchy is left vacant, the candidates fight in ceremonial duels so that the strongest attains the position.
  
• Alpha Wolves often severely limit prayer times, if not cut them out all together, to get in more training.
  
• Alpha Wolves have their own company of marines hunting down the Reapers. I imagine that marines must compete and prove their worth to get into this company.
  
• Widespread use of combat drugs (practice started after the fall of the Reapers?). Such stimulants are technically condemned, but this is very rarely enforced(?).
  
• Alpha Wolves, statistically, have a lower life expectancy than most Astartes(?).
  
• Beliefs mirror Darwinism and Manifest Destiny. Mankind is the only race strong enough to rule the galaxy. Heretics, traitors, and mutants weaken the Imperium, like cancers, and must be purged.
  

 

Those are my thoughts so far for the main elements of the Alpha Wolves.

 

 

On another note, I've gone through IA: Angels of Perdition and completely gutted it. Now I just have to put the meat back on the bones! *cue epic music*

[Tyrannicide]

Nine Breaker, I like the idea of a caste system it is very suiting. Their headstrong ideals flow perfectly.

When a position in the Chapter's hierarchy is left vacant, the candidates fight in ceremonial duels so that the strongest attains the position.

Have you by chance read Warrior Coven, the book featuring the Deathwatch?

 

Alpha Wolves have their own company of marines hunting down the Reapers. I imagine that marines must compete and prove their worth to get into this company.

Is this an additional company, or one part of the main chapter, that possibly rotates around.

 

The belief of 'Manifest Destiny', should effuse, well with the Alpha Wolves.

[Commissar Molotov]

Nice to see some progress on the Wolves, Nine.

 

The caste system has good points. In effect, you could even see the Astartes as another, superior caste that neatly slots into the homeworld. They are superior and stronger than the warrior caste. The super-warrior caste. And considering in most caste systems it's almost impossible to move between castes, or associate with other castes, the opportunity to move from the warrior caste to the Astartes might be attractive.

 

With that said, why a fortress world? I'm not entirely sold on that, but giving some justification might be cool. There were issues raised with the War Bearers that the Administratum might not be best pleased with just losing a fortress world to the Astartes. That said, you could look at this world as a recruiting world rather than a homeworld. In that way, you stroll up whenever you want, take some boys, go away. You get your recruits, the Imperium keeps the world and its tithes.

 

I had some idea that perhaps the Alpha Wolves live on a dead world - a dead world because they've killed off (through hunting, etc.) all the native wildlife. Only the strong survive! I do think the Wolves should have at least some prayer. Even if it's brutal, rough, primal, primitive and cursory. Even if it's twice a day. And then emphasise the whole "battle is our prayer" aspect.

 

With regards to the combat drugs - firstly, why? I presume you'll say it's because it makes them stronger, and they're obsessed with that strength. (On a deep psychological level, you could say that given that they compete to get out of their caste, they've deep-seated anxieties about proving their worth, their strength, justifying themselves. But hey, it's better than wanting to sleep with their mothers...)

 

So, combat drugs. The other thing to mention is that the Space Marines are noted as being a delicate hormonal/chemical balance. Even their armour incorporates drug dispensers. Combat drugs could wreak havoc with that balance. We could look to the Eagle Guard ideas I had before, there. Perhaps even gut some of the ideas and incorporate them here.

 

 

The other thing we'd mentioned (which you've not listed) is that before, it was suggested that in recent years the Alpha Wolves have focused on the Tyranid swarms. If that's not your aim, then cool, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

[Sigismund Himself]

It seems lots of the Vocates are actually now fighting the Tyranids.