Non cookie cutter tourniment lists

[Maladon]

Okay that idea hit awhile ago, so here's the question-

 

Can you design a chaos army list that can win a tournament, that is a non cookie cutter list(eg, twin lashes, all death guard and 6 to 9 obliterators). What I mean is, not just GT's and RT's but your locale group/store tourneys too.

 

Simple Yes or No answer, however if you say Yes, the post the list that you came up with! Whatever point lists that are the normal in your area of the world!

 

Usually were I play its either 1000pts up to 1750 or 1850.

 

The intent on this thread is not to bash people or the lists they come up with, it was merely to prove the arrogant people wrong that the only chaos list that could win a tourney is a cookie cutter list!

 

My list will be up shortly...

[Lord Humongous]

Certainly. The list that won the last RT I went to is still largely valid, as the bulk of the list was just noise marines with sonic blasters, backed up by a few HtH units. It looses a bit from the lack of deamonettes and tooled up DP, but still would be quite effective.

[Smurfalypse]

Actually i came up with an off list not to long ago and started using it with friends and such. I then decided to try it out in a few local tournies and it performed very very well. Some parts of it are looked at as semi-standard though.

 

Daemon prince w/warptime and wings

Terminators x10 a few reapers and some combi

Possessed x10 yes possessed

two units of base CSM with flamer/melta, champ w/PF and rhinos

Oblits, x2

 

Its an off army list and only had the mark of glory if any, this is my standard word bearer list and currently have been 18-0 with it.

[Muskie]

What if you want to play and have fun? What if you're trying for best painted? I'm pro innovation and anti-immitation.

 

I made a 1500 point list using stuff I have painted and have fielded in previous GTs. I don't know if it would win, but I'm thinking of trying it at Astronomicon Vancouver. I only need to paint 3 models or something. That's doable by July or whenever Astro is.

 

I'm not giving away my army list, but if you go to my website I'm sure you could imagine what I'd use. It is a retro armie list for Christian and Mike and Rob and other regulars. I'd like to do a revolutionary totally innovative amazing army which I have planned but I don't have time to paint an all new or at least 12 to 1300 points of new stuff.

 

I think there is lots of room for creativity in the Chaos Codex still and I don't think you need multiple lashes or 9 Obliterators or even any Obliterators to win a game of 40K. Now all Plaguemarines is something I've tried in other editions of the rules and honestly although it is themed, it is limiting especially if you take only 7 or 14 model squads. I plan to take an army more like my armies in 2nd edition, one that will look good and at least have a chance to win games and accomplish missions.

 

I've played people who had way better army lists than me at GTs. I'm talking 3 Wraith Lords, only Banshees and Fire Dragons. That was not a fun or fair game. I've also played a kid with a Tau gunline of doom which should have smoked me in a dessert but didn't... The person playing the game can be more important than the list. And style of play whether all-out assault, horde, mechanized, stand back and shoot or a mixture which is what I favour are all valid.

 

I think a list with 3 Havoc squads giving you 9-12 heavy weapons would give problems to just about anything, but then tables with really dense terrain or different deployment and mission objectives might neuter this. But if I was trying to just show up and KILL and assuming simple missions and minimal terrain. I'd go 3 Havocs. I don't have my codex with me, but they'll come in at 200 ish points per squad. I'd have a few extra bolter dudes and maybe a mark. I think Tzeentch would work the best, that would make them more surviveable in a gunnery duel. You should lean towards autocannons with a few lascannons or heavy bolters. If you're planning ahead for fifth edition why not a squad with nothing but missile launchers?

 

Then I'd have something with speed that can seize objectives. 2 squads in rhinos. It doesn't even matter what you put in them 7 plaguemarines and champ in a rhino is at least 250. 10 renegades with two special weapons is like 200 points. Even bezerkers would work... You need two because sometimes there are multiple objectives and sometimes a rhino gets blown to bitz.

 

Then I'd have a counter assault squad. Havoc squads with special weapons can be good for this. As could Noise marines. But even 5 chaos marines with a champ and a special weapon will come in at less than 150.

 

So 5 squads at 200 points. One squad at 150 that's 1150. Call it 1200. Then you need an HQ you can go cheap or you can max out. Cheap is probably better because it will give you more guns and scoring units. But sometimes you just do a real cool conversion because you can. So 200 points for HQ, it shouldn't be so hard to avoid the lash. I personally think the Tzeentch power is the best one and I'm famous for playing Nurgle. That's 1400.

 

Now if it is a 1500 point tournament you ca fit in one cheap squad say 3 terminators with two mealta guns and a heavy flamer like I proposed before the Chaos Codex came out. Or another 5 man chaos space marine squad with just a special weapon. Or you could bulk up one of your other squad(s).

 

At 1700 I'd have at least one dreadnought. Most any army I make has a dreadnought. I just think they are cool and they are cheap mobile heavy weapon platforms. You can choose your gun to complemenet the rest of your army. Not enough anti-armor twin-linked lascannon with or without Krak missile launcher. Not enough anti-infantry heavy bolters or autocannons. Don't like marines heavy plasma gun....

 

All these dreads come in just over 100 giving you enough points for a big foot slogging squad. This is something I keep expirementing with and in the right situation can really annoy an opponent. 20 Chaos renegades is 300 points right. Depending on your dread you can have 15 renegades and any mark you like and that squad is going to stay on the board for a long while. They can babysit your havocs or advance towards whatever hill you have to take and hold. They can be the second wave to your rhino squads. Facing a horde of nids or orks, laugh manically when you shoot 30 times when they get in charge range and 3 havoc squads is going to wipe out a lot of T3 models even T4 models...

 

There you go one winning tournament army which you can season to taste that doesn't rely on anything but bolters, power armor, and normal joe marines with big guns. Plus two rhinos and one dread. You could drop a havoc squad and put in a tank, but havocs gives you more heavy weapons than any other option. Plus I think it is easier to find a good spot to deploy them than a large tank.

 

One squad of chosen would probably help. Not a big squad but one armed so it can threaten just about anything, ie Mealta guns. They can be your counter assault squad or you can use them to hunt the enemy HQ or key squad

[the jeske]

well first thing first in theory you can play what you want at a tournament . Second thing is the sort of a tournament . big tournaments tend to have better players and better armies . shop tournaments often have people with non tournament list come and play , with some luck if you run in two 3 such armies you can win a tournament without very good list . Third thing is meta game . that is specially true for smaller tournaments [not only shop one I would tell most under 40player tournaments are like that] . Do you have to counter skimers so hvy , if there is 2 eldar and 1 tau player in the whole tournament . Maybe the nids and ork players dont play shoty armies [like they should] but horde hth armies?etc etc So knowing the place where you play tournaments is important .that includes knowing what players will come , what teams , did someone switch their armies [maybe the top eldar player that gave you such problems , got bored with his armies and is not playing IG-hellfire list]. and the last , but not least important thing is the cash/prize pot . The bigger it is the more RAW and tough the tournament will be .

I agree with others that you could win a tournament with any chaos lists it only depends what kind of a tournament .But I personally would only take the lash/oblits/pm list only because it works best at all lvls , if that means that at shop tournaments you wont get much love , well thats the life of a tournament player , you only get love from your team .

[Muskie]

I still say it doesn't matter what the opponent has if you have three havoc squads. Stuff is going to die, even annoying Eldar vehicles, maybe the Monolith won't but I'm no expert at fighting Necros but I think the ignore the Monolith and just try to make em warp out tactic might be the best. The Monolith is so expensive I rarely see them.

 

My answer was based on tournaments people travel to play in, possibly even internationally. That said I open acknowledge all tournaments are equal. The US seems to have the 'ard Boyz tournies which doesn't appeal to me that much. But I like the sheer size of some of their tournaments. I gotta get to GT Vegas next year, this year is out. But Astronomi-con Vancouver is in. It is an internationally famous tourney that comps heavy, allows fringe lists, and is popular with people who like variety, sure some tweaked cookie cutter armies might show, but so do a lot of totally custom one of kind armies that people built because it would be cool. There website doesn't show enough pictures of the cool stuff, maybe after the 2008 season. I'll be givin' them the press...

[Cornelias]

I still say it doesn't matter what the opponent has if you have three havoc squads............

 

 

Heavy Support: Havocs (10#, 273 Pts)

9 Havocs

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Missile Launcher (x4); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory

1 Aspiring Champion

Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades;

 

Heavy Support: Havocs (10#, 273 Pts)

9 Havocs

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Missile Launcher (x4); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory

1 Aspiring Champion

Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades;

 

Heavy Support: Havocs (10#, 273 Pts)

9 Havocs

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Missile Launcher (x4); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory

1 Aspiring Champion

Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades;

 

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 220 Pts)

9 Chaos Space Marines

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory

1 Aspiring Champion

Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

 

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (10#, 220 Pts)

9 Chaos Space Marines

Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Chaos Glory

1 Aspiring Champion

Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades

 

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 Pts)

1 Daemon Prince

Close Combat Weapon; Fearless; Wings; Warptime (x1)

 

Elite: Terminators (4#, 165 Pts)

3 Terminators

Power Weapon (x3); Combi-melta (x3); Chaos Glory

1 Terminator Champion

Lightning Claws (pair) (x1)

 

Elite: Terminators (4#, 165 Pts)

3 Terminators

Power Weapon (x3); Combi-melta (x3); Chaos Glory

1 Terminator Champion

Lightning Claws (pair) (x1)

 

Total Roster Cost: 1744

 

 

i'd like to try a list like this and see how it goes :D

[Muskie]

I still say it doesn't matter what the opponent has if you have three havoc squads............

 

i'd like to try a list like this and see how it goes

 

Well not what I suggested exactly, I think you'll find your list isn't mobile enough. But the basic idea being especially if you can once again in 5th edition use your own units to block line of sight or partially screen each other is that a lot of fire power will be coming the enemy's way and it will always be tough because everyone has power armor or better and even in H2H it should be OK. CSM with 2 CCW and Frag Grenades especially in numbers should kill stuff on the charge.

 

Against hordes, set up intelligently in some sort of castle formation. Shoot at least twice with all barrels and hopefully get some rapid firing in too. Then be the charger not the chargee with the 'tactical squads'. Thus freeing up the havocs to keep shooting on the edges of the H2H. Ideally you could set them up on a hill or better yet in a ruined building where the enemy has all sorts of trouble gettin' them out.

 

I still like the 35 point rhino for blocking sight, mobility, and even at 50 points you'd get to shoot a Havoc Missile Launcher which is respectable especially after you've deployed your troops where you want. In 2nd Edition I used to ram and tank shock with my rhinos...

 

Against a mechanized army you have the fire power to dent the tanks. Against another gunline it might depend who got first turn, who has the best cover or who deployed best.

 

Where it is weak is in unusal missions with funky deployment. Anything that you have to capture or blitzkrieg through would be difficult with your proposed army. That is why I was pro rhino. Think of the classic table quarters missions which I suck at, the Diseased Sons sucked at. Now Chaos has bikers or single obliterators or small squads of termies to babysit stuff. Even my proposed 100 point CSM squad would excel at babysitting a quarter of the board.

 

Like I alluded to the other night I made up a 1500 point tournament army and after I was finished I'm like "how to I have a chance in a table quarter mission"? Then I change one squad to have more range and adjusted my dreadnought. Dreadnoughts currently can babysit or contest tablequarters. The rumored rules may have a big effect on tournaments which have a lot of taking and holding or table quarters missions.

 

The blitzkrieg mission is the one where you have to get to the opposite side of the board, either to hang out in the opponent's deployment zone, or blitz right through... It royally sucks for footsloggin' lists and it definitely does no favours to a gunline. Sometimes only oneside has to blitz and the roll or method for determining that can win or lose the game for some armies. Dark Eldar or KoS can whip across the board and the IG can dig in and hold the line, but forced to reverse the roles, the IG would lose. All the Dark Eldar and KoS has to do is delay and annoy the IG. These missions are extra tough when getting off the board or across the board is the only thing that matters. If it just a few extra bonus points then the IG and other gunline armies just sit and shoot as per usual.

 

What missions you have to play is a bigger factor than which army will be most prominant. If you can know all the missions exactly before a tournament. You can test your actual army and tweak it to accomplish six simple tasks. If you are going to tweak an army for an opposition it is a no brainer in 40K, it is MEQ. This is the power armor board and everything.

 

I of course worry about the extreme lists, tank heavy, and speedy. Not so much hordes. I see them beating people and winning tournaments sometimes, but the Diseased Sons don't die easily and any army that advances on my position is just helping me get in range with my bolters... Sure I've lost to horde armies, but a lot depends on the mission, the terrain and deployment. The last tournament I played against two KoS, drawing or minor victory and a massacre for me. Again the mission mattered a pile in the first more difficult game.

 

The rumored 5th edition changes how deployment is done. Tournaments already did this all the time. At Astronomi-con and some other tournaments you have no idea what mission you'll be called upon to tackle nor what terrain you'll be fighting in. The 'Ard boy style uses relatively open fields and bog standard missions, thus showing up and shooting is probably the way to go. Astronomi-con and other tournies penalize some builds to discourage them. I'm no expert on this but 3 havocs will likely get a few dings. But if you are going for best general, or your goal is just to kill everything and not meet people and make friends. 3 Havocs, 12 heavy weapons, deployed intelligently is going to kill a lot of stuff on the average table.

 

The 9 Obliterators are move and shoot and can deep strike and have the better armor save, but I say just screen the heavy weapons guys with their own squad mates.

 

You really want to piss someone off, field this squad:

20 Havocs

4 Heavy Weapons

Champ that looks menacing and...

Icon of Tzeentch

 

It is like a one squad fire base. Good luck with the hordes takin' that out in H2H. Little guys will get shot and big nasty guys have to wade through a field of invulnerable save WS 4 I4 guys looking for the champ who just conks 'em on his head with the now ubiquitous powerfist. Of course they are changin' H2H some so maybe a Hive Tyrant could eat the champ first, but honestly how long does it take to kill 20 3+/5+ save dudes? Plus they are going to fight back... The new Codex is great for squads they just neutered characters, it isn't Herohammer...