Getting the OT out of the Jervis thread

[refuse]

Rob, sorry to use your post, but I realized I was trying to put my thoughts into a response.

Your post was a very good one, and really, I understand people are trying to look rosey.

 

Note: I am a staunch supporter of buisness. GW should do what keeps it in buisness. But I am also a screaming Libertarian, and a Objectivist. So I take personal responsibility as a cornerstone of behavior. I.e. if something goes wrong, I should have understood it better, and plan to not let it happen again.

 

As Gomer Pile used to say "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

 

So I get very cautious when I see things happen. And I like to assure they can't happen a second time. Of course, it has to be something that I consider "fooling me". So to Chaos Strong's point, the minor/smaller changes GW has done in the past haven't bothered me enough to consider it a "fool". I do know they deleted my beloved Genestealers. They didn't support my Grey Knights from Slaves to Darkness up until Daemon Hunters. But all in all, I am a die hard Emperor's Children Player for 20 years. So I obviously knew what they could do. And probably waited for it.

 

I loved RT, disliked 2nd, liked 3rd, don't dislike 4th.

I disliked the EC IA article (where they started Retconning Emperor's Children into Noise Marines, and which has been carried forth now even into the Horus Heresy books). But sure, it seperates them from the other Chaos Legions, and of all the Legions, the Emperor's Children had the "legionizing" done the least. i.e. I could still not take sonics and gain the +1 I. And we have to accept that once all chaos got fearless, the EC needed some other gimmic. Faster then the average marine is cool enough.

 

This isn't meant to be a flogging thread. Just a summary once and for all of what bothers me about the whole path GW is going.

name='Rob the lurker' date='Mar 11 2008, 08:47 AM' post='1516102'

On topic (ish)

 

GW does have major troubles, which is why half the board were fired, and why in the UK they have just got rid of some (very underperforming) managers (a friend of mine is just learning which storew she will get as a result of people leaving) The troubel was the guys at head office were running it like a hobby, not as a business, and finally they have been forced to change. They need to get more people involved earlier, and need to work out where they need actual stores, and where retailers can be used - something theyre finally backing here, much more than they used to.

I don't disagree. The stores and locations need to be run like a buisness. They need hobby people to run the hobby.

The issue is the buisness people are making (in my opinion) the decisions. The Chaos codex was rushed to fill a buisness void (orks being delayed) and looks it. There are whole sections missing. What makes a daemon. The Icons reference the Marks, but the marks are just buried somewhere. The statements that they didn't expect people to take 2 Lashes. The EC Lord model that isn't valid (ok, ignore the backpack, and the other sonic stuff, that makes him fearless). It was a quick rehash of 2nd edition, thrown together. It may be planned for 5th, but until 5th ships it is broken (oops, 8 months of broken codex) with the inability to have retinues, possessed (random = Chaos Yeah!). It invalidates some units (Dreads are back to being near useless, but we didn't get a new model so no biggy). We now have "Codex following chaos". i.e. you need X troops to get Y weapon. They threw away (or as has been stated) forgot to add in ancient enemies. Yeah, now A Khorne Lord can lead 6 troops of Slaanesh marines.

 

Heck I am building a Loyalist EC/Deathwing army. And I can live with 5 man teams, with 1 HW. Loyalist are (to me) about having to live with inane rules that require them to have to battle past the Imperium's rules before they even battle the enemy. It adds a whole dystopian feel to the loyalists. Sorry men, yes we realize that shooting at the tanks with the big guns, while shooting at the troops with the rifles is best. But Page 2000002002 of the manual says, we all fire at the same target to better server the Emperor. So fire at the tank, even the rifles.

 

 

name='Rob the lurker' date='Mar 11 2008, 08:47 AM' post='1516102'

They are doing some incredible things, Apocalypse is my current favourite ('zerkers with fleet -_- stopping those damn clowns on a 4+....and warhounds ;) ) but I am getting used to the Chaos Codex. I must admit that the old book was definitely way more fun, but it got abused to death (DP with 3+/5+/4+FNP and T5? mine stood up to an entiire RW round of shooting and didnt take a wound. wrong...) and was horribly complicated for tournies - hell your MC DP didnt have to be represented as such, and you didnt have to tell the opponent anything to the contrary......but this went too far. I hope they do actually admit to maknig a mistake for once and give us the Legions book, as I feel your pain about loss of Sonics - meaning you now need basically a new army - and EC were definitely the hardest hit.

The Legions books is a dream meant to keep the customers on the hook.

Note: It is still 2+ years away if it is ever done. If. The original discussions prior to the release of the codex was "we are not doing any sub dexes, or non-standard armies. The Chaos book will include all the chaos armies." So I think this whole statement by Jervis is being misconstrued. He doesn't say they are doing it, only that if they do it, they will do it right. The quote never says they are going to do it.

 

Apocalypse to me is the major cop out. If the rules aren't written well, it isn't GW's fault, play Apocalypse. If the army you play is invalidated, play Apocalypse. If you find lists abusive, play Apocalypse. If you thing GW can't write rules, play Apocalypse. If you play to win, you are a cheese monger and you should play Apocalypse.

 

I think the premise of the book is fine, but GW (as a buisness) is attempting to many things at one time. Here is a bone for the experienced player? You can't play tournaments, you can't have army rules, you can't participate in the main game, but you can play Apocalypse. Feel better? The game store my friend runs had Megabattles before apocalypse. The problem with Apocalypse is that it shows GW doesn't even know the scale if it's game. i.e. Is it a Kill Team game? Is it a squad based game? Is it a tactical game? Is it an epic scale game? The rules are a mishmash of all of them, and 5th will make it worse. Running in Kill Team? Running in Space Hulk Kill Team? Running makes sense when you are playing Apoc games, but now 12" movement on 4" tables.

 

So GW is loosing focus of the metagame. I think they need solid rules for each "level" of game play.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=127065

I attempted to highlight that there.

The same game rules for Kill Team and Apoc seem contrary. The "kill team" uniqueness is at odds with the "standard" squads of Apocalypse.

 

name='Rob the lurker' date='Mar 11 2008, 08:47 AM' post='1516102'

However 40k has been the "simpler" game for year - 4th Ed rules are way less complicated, and require less thinking ahead than in Fantasy (not none, i said less ;) ) so is the reason it is the intro game of choice, and you could argue that this codex is a continuation of that theme. I think they have let it slip too far, hence the move to 5th ed supposedly adding in Fantasy elements, so maybe the codex will make more sense in 5th? witht he legions book being proposed you can have the more complicated, fluffy, elements added back in, while still leaving an "ultramarines" route for new players - personially more chaos players the better :)

2nd is simpler then RT, 3rd simpler then 2nd, 4th simpler then 5th, 5th is simpler then 4th. LOS, running, and more make it simpler.

The Legion book isn't proposed (just want to point that out again).

 

"if we're going to do things, we're going to do them right."

I truley believe the Chaos codex was rushed out as Jeske says, to fill the Ork void, and they intended it to be the new Chaos. They rushed, and forgot alot.

 

name='Rob the lurker' date='Mar 11 2008, 08:47 AM' post='1516102'

It's waaaaay too easy to knock GW, and I do my fair share, but at the end - for the company to survive, they need to make tough choices. New players in the first 2 years spend way more than the average veteran, and right now that is what they need. They have a tough job at HO for very little money (i know a couple of guys up there, and they barely make more than shop staff a lot of the time) and are normally only criticised. Legions, if it appears, will be positive, and will hopefully make your EC army legal again - it's probably worth the wait! For now, try chaos lite and see if it gives you new ideas - it has for me, and i was surprised at that.

Not sure I will be around. Waiting 2+ years to play my army again because as the developers admit, they screwed up.

I won't try the new dex. It invalidated a huge portion of my army, and I am not going to buy $2000 worth of minis to fill in what the developers admit was a bad codex.

Basically Jervis sort of apologized for the Chaos codex.

So I could play an army I don't like (Chaos lite), in a way I don't like (replace all my sonic havocs, terminators, dread, predator, land raider with regular versions (see purchasing above), with units I don't like (Ok, so I modelled combat drugs, lash of torment, great weapon and other things on my DP, but now they are just, uh, Monsterous strength).

 

The chaos codex is an abomination in my mind. It poorly represents chaos. I have to add icons to my units (or just be lazy and say, oh that bit there, yeah, the skull on the knee is an icon). It is a poor piece of writing, devoid of fluff and a terrible rule book. The layout is poor (even by 2nd edition, which it looks like). Daemons are not identified as deamons, lords don't have retinues (again, regardless if it is written for 5th, that means players have a handicapped version for 8 months?)

 

I look forward to the Legion books if it is going to be done. Till then, I am hoping GW can turn itself around. But as a chaos player, for 20+ years, as a person who runs a site dedicated to Games Workshop (for 9+ years I have run sites dedicated to Emperor's Children). I can tell you, this was the final nail for my Emperor's Children. If it wasn't for the people on the site, I would have taken it down in disgust. It was a cheap, poor attempt at a codex that insulted Legion players and Chaos players in general.

 

I know many people disagree.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=1392435

 

But my army, legal under the previous version isn't salvageable.

So build a list under the new codex? Not doable without a large purchase, to play an army that GW doesn't want to support, in a group they are not putting effort into.

 

So wait 2+ years. Sure. "If" they do it.

 

Again, I am not trying to codex flog (I did enough in the codex flogging thread). But I do want to make sure people realize, the new legion codex isn't something planned, is something they are doing because they want to keep you on board for the next 2 years.

 

If you play an army that is fieldable under the new rules. Great. If you find the change up good. Great. If you like the simplicity of the new rules. Great. I am very glad, for years I felt the same way.

But.

My army isn't fieldable. The change to the rules/structure is a return to 2nd edition, something I didn't like. And I don't like Simple rules. I play wargames for complexity and to challenge my mind. And the underlying GW rules are not that good. They change them wholesale (4->5) instead of making improvements (like they do in fantasy).

[Maladon]

Nice to see your full side of how you feel about this... I didn't know you didn't like 2nd edition!

 

Also, isn't your forum go for both game systems, not just 40k.

[FerrumIgnatus]

There's something that bothers me, and it's about the codex (no, I'm not going to say "Hey, it smells horsedung and is a mockery). What bothers me is that WHY in the name of all what's chaosy did they rush with getting out the codex when they KNEW they had screwed it up?

 

Answer: Due to the new Chaos releases last year -like the new possessed (2nd time last year, this time in plastic), Termie Lord (Again 2nd time last year, but this time in plastic), CSM "tactical squad", plastic spawn and CSM Termie squad, together with a special character (huron)- GW was forced to rush the development of the Codex, and I doubt they playtested the Codex enough times to think: "Hey, what the heck have we done? we've litterally dismembered almost every Traitor legion", released it, and nearly every Chaos player with self-respect revolted against it. Thus went JJ out and sort of said "Sorry, we totally blew it, but hey, in about 2 years, we'll release specific legion Codexes! Yay!"

 

I am a firm believer of quality before quantity, and it would be just logical to produce an awesome, fluff-loaden, all 9 Traitor Legions and Daemons-covering codex that would fry your brain in sheer joy, and THEN release the Renegade-Codex, since 40K'ers would give their left kidney or other organ for a well thought through, fluff-loaden all 9 Traitor legions covering Codex: CSM. Business-wise, this would be a good start, as it's just this -and besides awesome-looking minies- that triggers 40K'ers and newbeginners to buy starter-sets and new units to fill the ranks of their already impressive-looking armies.

 

-FerrumIgnatus

[refuse]

Nice to see your full side of how you feel about this... I didn't know you didn't like 2nd edition!

 

Also, isn't your forum go for both game systems, not just 40k.

Yes, the EC.net is more of a Slaanesh.net. But I like the Emperor's Children more then Slaanesh in general, so it is called the Emperor's Children.net.

Of course, it should have been the 29th Great Company of the Emperor's Children.net but that was too long. ;)

 

The original site:

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~29thgreatcompany/

 

Was the 29th Great Company site. :)

[sonsoftaurus]

The stores and locations need to be run like a buisness. They need hobby people to run the hobby.

The issue is the buisness people are making (in my opinion) the decisions.

 

I agree that the hobby and business parts are out of whack. But I think it's more complex than having hobby people run the hobby. The problem is that there are two different parts of the hobby side (rules and miniatures) that need to be coordinated and they both need to be coordinated with the business aspect - but the coordination is running into problems.

 

People running a hobby company have to be able to be able to understand *both* the hobby and business sides. From GW all the way to the local game store. Plenty of independent game stores are started by people who are hard core gamers but can't run the business right, and they fail. Similarly I imagine a game store run by an MBA with no knowledge of the specific industry would crash too. The successful ones are run by people who understand their customers and can meet their needs in a profitable way. Same as with any business - a restaurant with great food that can't control overhead will go under, as would a restaurant with great business leadership that ignored the quality of the actual product itself.

[Captain Idaho]

i like what you have written there. particularly the Apocolypse comments. id like to add this to it if you dont mind, i added it to an earlier thread:

 

GW are going for the fast food gamer, kids/teenagers who wont be interested in several months anyway. hence why the game is being made so simple. they are taking their core market for granted (the long term gamer, or geek for short!), as they believe we will lap it up no matter what they do.

 

and if we take a look at the latest sales, as well as those for the past 3 years, we see that that core is getting smaller and the fast food gamer doesnt really exist in enough numbers to cover those losses.

 

a good example is a couple friends of mine who got interested, bought an army book each and a bunch of models, one of them even played a few times. but now nothing, no interest as they have a new Playstation/Xbox and more importantly, no money put back into the system.

 

GW should accept that the market is niche and there is nothing that can be done about it. no matter how simple the game becomes, no matter how easy it is to pick up and play, it wont attract any more fast food gamers than monopoly or risk. worse, that simplification and lack of variance (because of the simplification) has started driving away the core market (us geeks).

 

sorry if its high jacking the thread, but i think its relevent.

 

a particular bug bear is the simplification of 40K. it really isnt a correct way to boost sales and interest, it is a way of lacking depth and its costing the company big.

[refuse]

Nice to see your full side of how you feel about this... I didn't know you didn't like 2nd edition!

Oh, and I disliked it. The cratoon imagery they used, more then the rules and such. From RT-2nd there is a huge speed bump. The Evil of Chaos kind of faded a bit. Noise Marines (introduced in WD 144) became the defacto archtype of Slaanesh in 2nd. And that has been carried forward since then. Meh from my point of view.

I liked the refocus in 3rd on fluff (post the thin codecies).

[Maladon]

Nice to see your full side of how you feel about this... I didn't know you didn't like 2nd edition!

Oh, and I disliked it. The cratoon imagery they used, more then the rules and such. From RT-2nd there is a huge speed bump. The Evil of Chaos kind of faded a bit. Noise Marines (introduced in WD 144) became the defacto archtype of Slaanesh in 2nd. And that has been carried forward since then. Meh from my point of view.

I liked the refocus in 3rd on fluff (post the thin codecies).

 

agreement on the separation of noise marines from the EC. Though I don't understand why GW went back on that fluff...WHY? That's like saying that all berserkers are Worldeaters, and etc for the other god specific legions, its like stereotyping to me.

 

Back when the IA came out I was happy they did that, but it seemed like when the 3.5 dex came out that it simplified the IA rules down even further, till now their back to being noise marines with speed.

[the jeske]

That's like saying that all berserkers are Worldeaters, and etc for the other god specific legions, its like stereotyping to me.

well freedom for players or not , the truth is that most of the zerkers are WE , just like most of the PM are DG . It mean other warbands sometimes have squads at best of cult marines . Huron with his huge fleet didnt have cult ships . all the cult marines were on board of the flag ship and even those cult squads werent even warband sized [truth be told we are only shown the zerkers barracks] . remember huron has the biggest non legion army of csm out there.

 

that need to be coordinated and they both need to be coordinated with the business aspect - but the coordination is running into problems.

well the truth that it never did . GW has been and always will be a model producing company first and a rules producing one second . they only care as much about the rules as they help them sell stuff .

[Joah from Alberta]

Where I tend to agree with your general discourse, I wish you did not harbour so much resentment towards GW, for to wallow is to sink and you have much more beauty to give then your humble despair .

 

With the new chaos 'dex rollover I lost a significant chunk of my WE army, not to mention my most beloved TOBB and all my significant wargear and I to this day refuse to play my Bloody as a GGD. The codex is fabricated crap, any of the 3-million inmates in USA could have drawn better art than the 3-year old scrawlings in that book.

 

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2106chaosrenegades-h.htm

 

What can we do but embrace what we have and stand for who we are. I am proud of who I am, and every day I remind myself that I am a good man, for there is too many shadows in life and the sun only shines for so little time. My New World Eaters: http://www.worldeaters.net/viewtopic.php?t=720 (And yes, I'll never live it down.)

 

 

 

Time's are a changing. There's a large % of people to begin with that don't like to work. And our hobby does require some manual investment. When you consider this along with the other available modern outlets of enjoyment out there, such as vidiot games and online gaming, it's no wonder that the gaming world is overrun my warcrackeads. I've been trying to get my younger brother into playing Wh40k with us for the past two years. Oh yeah, he falls right along with my enthusiasm for the game, even went out and purchased a megaforce along with other box sets. Has he played a game with us? nope. Has he painted his minis? nope. Is he now playing D&D online with his buddies, why, yes, of course. And why is that? Cause at last, in his complacency he admitted that video games are "easier".

 

Whenever I walk into my GW store, I am honoured. For I recognize that walking into a GW store is like walking into a page of my past. By all modern accounts, GW stores should no longer exist. They should have become an internet mail order store exlusively. (Who knows, maybe then we could by our minis at Walmart, guh). GW is one of the last humanitarian enterprises in our commercially-saturated world. It is ALL that we have. And it's kinda goofy playing with toy soldiers so God forbid that our reps should be kinda goofy to boot. Should we crucify them for their abysmal ignorance and total lack of consideration of our devotion to them? Absolutely. But then, we should also smash our heads to a pulp at the base of their dead feet.

 

Recluse, you have done more than what most of us could ever hope to accomplish in this game. You should be proud of your accomplishments. For to be on top is a lonely place. Your EC have been immortalized. In my mind, they have attained a higher place in the Universe of 40k, whereby they need no longer use their instruments of music for war but rather sit back in their comfortable world and take a break to enjoy their wonderful works.

 

And lastly, I read somewheres that sometime this year White Dward is planning on making an Emperor's Children codex much like what they did with Blood Angels. (Can someone confirm?)

 

So yeah,

 

Cheers,

[the jeske]

(Can someone confirm?)

\6yes they do , but its apo only. so kind of a sucks for people who dont want to spend 3 days preparing a game[and thats when when terrain is rdy ].

[Captain Idaho]

Time's are a changing. There's a large % of people to begin with that don't like to work. And our hobby does require some manual investment. When you consider this along with the other available modern outlets of enjoyment out there, such as vidiot games and online gaming, it's no wonder that the gaming world is overrun my warcrackeads. I've been trying to get my younger brother into playing Wh40k with us for the past two years. Oh yeah, he falls right along with my enthusiasm for the game, even went out and purchased a megaforce along with other box sets. Has he played a game with us? nope. Has he painted his minis? nope. Is he now playing D&D online with his buddies, why, yes, of course. And why is that? Cause at last, in his complacency he admitted that video games are "easier".

 

not sure what you side of the fence you are on, but it seems that you are supporting change one minute, then what i said previous the next. can you clarify please?

[Joah from Alberta]

Call a spade a spade. Change is the only thing that we have. Otherwise we are no better than the gazillions of asteroids/moons/planets/stars out there that take a gazillion years to break down into cosmic dust. On the other hand, a discretionary line must be drawn to separate the bull from the shyte. So stick to your guns gentlemen,

 

Cheers,

[DeathsHead]

A lot of solid points there, Joah. I too have a younger brother who is addicted to screens, so I can relate to that situation.

 

What you have to understand, though, is that most of us are bristling chiefly because W40k is starting to feel more and more LIKE that whole vidiot/mmorpg atmosphere of "fast food" gaming.

 

40k is a relic of yesteryear, just like D&D. We don't want it to die, or to become senile.

 

I'll draw a parellel with music. Take Metallica; once upon a time, they were one of the best metal bands. They took the best elements of the metal from the time and combined them with a lot of classical European ideas about how music should work. It was golden! Over time, however, it became more and more about the money, more and more about the rock-star life, and about pleasing their handlers. The band lost its center. And what do we have now? Metallica is now trying to emulate the sound of nu-metal bands who are the degenerate descendents of the musical tradition that they helped to create. They are imitating their own imitaters, and not even doing it very well. It's a wholly pathetic and embarassing affair.

 

Maybe in a few years, 40k will release a Pokemon-influenced army into the Dark Millennium, and we'll be receiving Ultramarines in our Happy Meals from McDonalds.

[Joah from Alberta]

I can relate to how it's going as well. How do you think I feel about not being able to bitz order anymore. Well granted there's a rumour that GW is reorganizing its bitz for better value, but we can all guess what the means. The problem is somewhat more profound then what lies at the surface.

 

Our social values are changing. If you want to maintain a hold onto something, you must stand for something at every point of the spectrum, at all times. And change will happen when structures are fatigued, ever wonder why you can't (usually) make that witty comeback at the best moment, it's because it'll hit you when you least expect it and are at your most vulnerable. That's when the shyte slides down hill.

 

Keeping the value into something requires more than just a token acknowledgment of its depreciation. So many people will find solace in: recognition of the problem. As an example, granted that realizing you have a drinking problem is half the battle, but it's only half the battle unless you DO something about it.

 

I'm sure that most gamers whom have been in the loop for some time will have noticed a depreciating factor in the quality that is being produced in table top gaming. Granted there have been some exceptions, the remake of Talisman has been exceptional, but still nothing compared to 2nd (and imo 3rd) edition. The quality of design and development in general have taken a fall over quality and production. Just have a look at all the pre painted plastics out there, At-33, MageKnight, etc. I'm not knocking these game by any means, but the fact that they come pre assembled and pre painted is a sign of the times.

 

The problem is more profound than the product of our modern trend. Our games are a result of our generation. If you play online games, then you are contributing to the current lethargy, for if it takes a million monkey a million year to write a Shakespear, and every one person that plays online games takes one monkey away from the advancement of a great work. And that's just what we're talking about here, work. Why do you suppose the Chinese people are able to produce so much (it's all crap I know) I'll tell you why, because they are free from the lethargic endowments of the computer. (I do realize that many Chinese are responsible for farming in online games, but that is only a minuscule fraction of their vast population). Anyhow, I'm getting a little off topic here.

 

The bottom line is that if you want to uphold integrity, you better bloody hold your guns, and that means standing up for your game everywhere at all times. All things in life are conserved, regardless, the ends will justify the means. If you want people to believe, then you must believe.

[Rob the lurker]

Refuse - no worries, you can always use my posts, it's the whole point of putting things up on boards!

 

Loss of BItz - this will come back, however it went so they didnt have to fire people. Bitz loses money, lots, so they need to sort it out.

 

Yes, Chaos Lite sucks, however it's here and nothing will change about it in the near future, no matter how much we curse it. YEs, it was rushed to fill a business gap, however waitig 2 years so you can play your exact army again in tournies isn as bad as it could have been. Although now I've said this Legions will disappear without a trace...

 

Apocalypse is a great get out, so it's overused, however that doesnt alter the fact they needed a way to do big attles - we'd tried in the apst and it just didnt work. adding the fact that it shouldnt be about competetive games is great, esp when that's what CSM seems geared towards -producing unfluffy, powerful (ish) armies that it is easy for others to spot when you field something illegial. Khorne FNP MCs and IW got exploited to hell, and i see part of this codex as a way to tailor the abuse.

 

LOS - this makes this more, not less complex. Why? AS you have to think about placement a LOT more. FIring lanes are harder to setup then....

[refuse]

I can relate to how it's going as well. How do you think I feel about not being able to bitz order anymore. Well granted there's a rumour that GW is reorganizing its bitz for better value, but we can all guess what the means. The problem is somewhat more profound then what lies at the surface.

 

Our social values are changing. If you want to maintain a hold onto something, you must stand for something at every point of the spectrum, at all times. And change will happen when structures are fatigued, ever wonder why you can't (usually) make that witty comeback at the best moment, it's because it'll hit you when you least expect it and are at your most vulnerable. That's when the shyte slides down hill.

Our social values are not changing, our accpetance of what is and isn't acceptable is chagning.

Read Brave New World, and 1984 and finally Atlas Shrugged. It is the acceptance of the fact that makes it.

 

"Evil prospers when good men do nothing"

 

Keeping the value into something requires more than just a token acknowledgment of its depreciation. So many people will find solace in: recognition of the problem. As an example, granted that realizing you have a drinking problem is half the battle, but it's only half the battle unless you DO something about it.

Yes, so I stopped purchasing GW, and make sure I let people understand the reality. Same as I have for years. I stop supporting their product, and instad help the people of my site.

 

I'm sure that most gamers whom have been in the loop for some time will have noticed a depreciating factor in the quality that is being produced in table top gaming. Granted there have been some exceptions, the remake of Talisman has been exceptional, but still nothing compared to 2nd (and imo 3rd) edition. The quality of design and development in general have taken a fall over quality and production. Just have a look at all the pre painted plastics out there, At-33, MageKnight, etc. I'm not knocking these game by any means, but the fact that they come pre assembled and pre painted is a sign of the times.

Actually, I would look at AT-43. Probably one of the most refreshing games out there. The "vehicles' have detailed interiors (though usually sealed shut). They are good for mass produced product, but to be fair, they are better then the older "solid color" versions of of Space Crusades.

 

The problem is more profound than the product of our modern trend. Our games are a result of our generation. If you play online games, then you are contributing to the current lethargy, for if it takes a million monkey a million year to write a Shakespear, and every one person that plays online games takes one monkey away from the advancement of a great work. And that's just what we're talking about here, work. Why do you suppose the Chinese people are able to produce so much (it's all crap I know) I'll tell you why, because they are free from the lethargic endowments of the computer. (I do realize that many Chinese are responsible for farming in online games, but that is only a minuscule fraction of their vast population). Anyhow, I'm getting a little off topic here.

Not modern, all time. Seldom is a son the equal of their father, usually they are worse, but sometimes they their better.

 

 

The bottom line is that if you want to uphold integrity, you better bloody hold your guns, and that means standing up for your game everywhere at all times. All things in life are conserved, regardless, the ends will justify the means. If you want people to believe, then you must believe.

Yep.

Raise your voide, be heard.

Pick the battles, and stay true.

Playing one game with the "New list" would be, inappropriate.

 

Refuse - no worries, you can always use my posts, it's the whole point of putting things up on boards!

 

Loss of BItz - this will come back, however it went so they didnt have to fire people. Bitz loses money, lots, so they need to sort it out.

They are comming back as kits. So not really comming back. You will have to buy kits. Not bad, as long as they are sueful (or you are nto me, when you only want one bit). They did this with the Chaos marine boxes. They were cool. The only one they dropped the ball on was the EC one. Where there was one SB, and one Blastmaster per box. Not an efficient packaging. The Tzeentch, and Nurgle ones were much better.

 

Yes, Chaos Lite sucks, however it's here and nothing will change about it in the near future, no matter how much we curse it. YEs, it was rushed to fill a business gap, however waitig 2 years so you can play your exact army again in tournies isn as bad as it could have been. Although now I've said this Legions will disappear without a trace...

"If they do it". But till then I can choose not to support it.

If they disappear, so will the 29th Great Legion after 20ish years.

 

Apocalypse is a great get out, so it's overused, however that doesnt alter the fact they needed a way to do big attles - we'd tried in the apst and it just didnt work. adding the fact that it shouldnt be about competetive games is great, esp when that's what CSM seems geared towards -producing unfluffy, powerful (ish) armies that it is easy for others to spot when you field something illegial. Khorne FNP MCs and IW got exploited to hell, and i see part of this codex as a way to tailor the abuse.

They need a big battle game, and a small battle game. They need separate rules for each of these?

The "epic" rules were out there. Now they are combining Epic with 40k with Necromunda, and expecting one set of rules to cover it.

 

LOS - this makes this more, not less complex. Why? AS you have to think about placement a LOT more. FIring lanes are harder to setup then....

Not sure how it is less. Basically, you can see everyone. Firelines are easier. Hiding will harder, but with run, . . . More survivable because the cover saves, and less time in the open (run).

[Joah from Alberta]

Hey look, we're being misquoted, although I don't mind. Refuse, I know you're absorbing all of this in your own manner. As I've said, you have every right to be pissed about what goes on. I'm still pissed about Star Trek the series never getting any better and only getting progressively worse as time went on. All science fiction television for that matter took a nose dive once cgi was the norm. Time goes on though, things become what they are for good or bad. It's entirely up to you however to allow things to make you feel bad.

 

Our minds are fickle things and it seems the more we accumulate in them, the greater the pain becomes when things are no longer functional and become a burden of dead weight to our mental being. I feel that you and I (and many here for that matter) share something in common for the things that possess us (such as taking great effort and pride in our work) and let me assure you that just because you may excel at one thing in life, even though in the same domain, does not necessarily equate that you will excel at letting that same thing go and getting on with your life. I say that it is not necessarily the end product of your achievements that will define you but rather the very will and essence of your love and efforts. If you choose to pull your love and effort out of life, than ultimately it is you that suffers for after all you are just a beautiful piece of godly flesh, and your efforts will vanish into selfish remorse to fill the hollows of this decrepit society. Regardless, this is a timeless attitude harboured within the bowels of man, to lament for things that are gone.

 

I say be merry while life still flows in your body. I say if you really care about your accomplishments then vilify them to the extent of becoming the single man to change the world. Write your ideas to the people who will make it matter. Investigate how to go about contacting these people. Drive your car on their lawn! Give their girlfriends and wives $20 roses! Do whatever it takes to drive your point across. Because once you factor out the colourful out of the BS, no matter how logical or poignant are your deductions, it's still BS in the end.

[the jeske]

(though usually sealed shut)

ref do you know that even those shut ones have interiors too[and yes I did cut one up].

[Playa]

Hey,

 

WHY in the name of all what's chaosy did they rush with getting out the codex when they KNEW they had screwed it up? Answer: Due to the new Chaos releases last year

 

I think you've got that backward -

 

Manufacturers like GW use a calendar timeline to track product releases.

GW specifically ties promos like WD/ Codex/ Army Books to model production.

The promo staff sees where their deadlines lie on the timeline, and plan accordingly.

But, if Manufacturing drops the ball on projected deliveries, the whole project is messed up.

Once a single project is delayed, a domino cascade affects all downstream projects as well.

 

Let's say, for instance, that CSM were slated to follow Orks in the Fall 2007 Release Schedule.

If Ork model production were somehow delayed, the whole release schedule is out the window.

Waiting to proceed until the Ork problems are fixed is *not* an option due to the cascade effect.

Now, say the CSM product line is already known to be at 100pct - what's the easiest fix for Orks?

 

Business-wise, this would be a good start, as it's just this -and besides awesome-looking minies- that triggers 40K'ers and newbeginners to buy starter-sets and new units

 

That's how we know the Gavdex is an incomplete promo:

 

Codex Creep is a widely recognized phenomenon in GW TTGs.

Put simply, better army = better Unit sales; better Units = better model sales.

The *whole point* of parallel development of models and rules is - to sell models!

Codex: Renegade Chapters demonstrably *harms* the sale of Citadel CSM models.

 

Worse, it doesn't adhere to JJ's "Streamlined" Marine template begun with DA and BA.

 

It's a failure on all fronts.

 

I can accept that a few people still like Codex: Emorines, just as some people like Spam.

But, even if you can stand the taste, it's still just snouts and trotters . . .

 

 

Playa

[refuse]

Hey look, we're being misquoted, although I don't mind. Refuse, I know you're absorbing all of this in your own manner. As I've said, you have every right to be pissed about what goes on. I'm still pissed about Star Trek the series never getting any better and only getting progressively worse as time went on. All science fiction television for that matter took a nose dive once cgi was the norm. Time goes on though, things become what they are for good or bad. It's entirely up to you however to allow things to make you feel bad.

I don't disagree.

I didn't like the new Battlestar Galactica, until I realized (then as well as now) it was just a TV drama with the backdrop of space. I will miss it when it is gone.

 

I have a real world example.

Years ago (way back machine) my friends and I won a contest to meet William Gibson, writer of some amazing Cyberpunk at a book signing in Providence.

Well we prepared (as geeks are want to do), and we showed up. White Mouse Pads with Screen printed copy of his cover of Neuromancer (way before the IP crazy days, probably 1990), a Hypercard (for the people that know macs) edition of Neuromancer, a blown up kinkos ($70 printed) cover of Newuromancer. All with art silver/chrome pens, and a bunch of other cool things to be signed. A circuit bard with his name and books on it (I am a computer engineer so I had one fabricated for a class). I mean solid computer/phreak stuff (A home made red box for the phreaks). Just about 30 items, all with intent.

 

Well anyways, you get the image. So we start talking to him. And we realize, we had a different perception of the man, then he was. i.e. He didn't see his books the same way we did. Or better yet, we had built up our own value system/way of valuing the books, that wasn't his. After talking to him for a few, we determined he was a writer, not a geek. And so while our "value of the meeting" was diminished, he was a great guy and discussed each of the items, and thought we were pretty darn cool for doing all the work (about $500 worth of items to be signed). So we got alot of value, but not what we had hoped for.

 

The distance between expectation and reality, is disappointment.

 

So I do understand (as I try to say above) that I don't mind GW going off in their own direction. I would like to make sure they know, that as pointed out in other threads. There are modellers, gamers and 40kers. They alienate the 40kers.

 

Our minds are fickle things and it seems the more we accumulate in them, the greater the pain becomes when things are no longer functional and become a burden of dead weight to our mental being. I feel that you and I (and many here for that matter) share something in common for the things that possess us (such as taking great effort and pride in our work) and let me assure you that just because you may excel at one thing in life, even though in the same domain, does not necessarily equate that you will excel at letting that same thing go and getting on with your life. I say that it is not necessarily the end product of your achievements that will define you but rather the very will and essence of your love and efforts. If you choose to pull your love and effort out of life, than ultimately it is you that suffers for after all you are just a beautiful piece of godly flesh, and your efforts will vanish into selfish remorse to fill the hollows of this decrepit society. Regardless, this is a timeless attitude harboured within the bowels of man, to lament for things that are gone.

 

I say be merry while life still flows in your body. I say if you really care about your accomplishments then vilify them to the extent of becoming the single man to change the world. Write your ideas to the people who will make it matter. Investigate how to go about contacting these people. Drive your car on their lawn! Give their girlfriends and wives $20 roses! Do whatever it takes to drive your point across. Because once you factor out the colourful out of the BS, no matter how logical or poignant are your deductions, it's still BS in the end.

:)

Understanding our limitations and value system goes along way to making peace with ourselves.

 

Taoism is my philosophy, Objectivism is my goal.

 

(though usually sealed shut)

ref do you know that even those shut ones have interiors too[and yes I did cut one up].

Yes.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. They design interiors into their models, then glue them shut. In case players want to paint up the interiors.

[Joah from Alberta]

Yeah, it's funny how virtue of acceptance can be the crown of glory or thorn for man. A man can have a meager 500-point unpainted army and be happier than a pig in shyte. A man can have 5000-point army and be completely miserable.

 

Philip K. Dick was a great sci-fi author. I watched Minority Report again this week-end. Also saw a preview to The Myst, which is also great sci-fi.

 

I get down like everyone else. It's like you build these great achievements in your life that feel so wonderful and then by rights should be treated with awe and recognition. Then life goes on and nobody stops except maybe to take a piss. Life goes on.

 

Which is it, to be a billionaire with no reason of finding yourself or a butterfly free to live in the wind for a month.

 

The only way to affect change is to go out and change the world.

[the jeske]

well I think thats what we are doing here . I mean the next 6 months of dexs , WD articles are lost , they went to print etc But we have a whole next edition coming up . a lot of stuff could be fixed , GW just should again have a real play test team just like in the Chambers time . I dont see people like ref or me [sorry ref for puting myself near you] a whiner or real codex haters , because those people no longer play chaos or w40k. I mean ref could be playing his EC house as normal sm . I could play my AL with oblits and dp [and probably have the same list as ref only with different models] . But I think we vets care to much for the game , to much time and effort to just say "screw it GW , see you in 3 years when your bring back the old rules" and trust me the end of 5th will look the same as the end of 4th ed.

[Captain Idaho]

well I think thats what we are doing here . I mean the next 6 months of dexs , WD articles are lost , they went to print etc But we have a whole next edition coming up . a lot of stuff could be fixed , GW just should again have a real play test team just like in the Chambers time . I dont see people like ref or me [sorry ref for puting myself near you] a whiner or real codex haters , because those people no longer play chaos or w40k. I mean ref could be playing his EC house as normal sm . I could play my AL with oblits and dp [and probably have the same list as ref only with different models] . But I think we vets care to much for the game , to much time and effort to just say "screw it GW , see you in 3 years when your bring back the old rules" and trust me the end of 5th will look the same as the end of 4th ed.

 

i agree. i love the hobby and moaning on an internet site as popular as this one is the only i think i can make myself heard. i tried writing before and got nowhere.

 

i didnt want to be a moaner, but thats what i have become in an effort to save my personal hobby.

 

incidently, losing interest in the current and future Codex books prevents me from maintaining interest in the hobby at all, despite having the option of playing previous editions i preffered. without the excited expectation of new releases, the hobby becomes stagnant.

[refuse]

It all depends on what you want out of a game, and as every gamer wants something different you’ll never achieve something everyone considers balanced. For some, the game is a simulation, to others it’s all about gameplay. Some prefer the narrative element and others just like to have fun with crazy army builds. Somewhere amongst all that, we have to find a point we consider balanced. To be honest, the fewer variables, the more balanced the system, but you have to be careful not to strip out all the fun!

--Andy Hoare