People that won't play you.

[chillin]

and they have problems finding folks to fill in that aren't him for 2v2, that's their bad You can't impress your will on someone else just because you have issues beating their army, and then have the temerity to bitch when you don't have enough players. Forcing someone into a cookie-cutter army by holding games hostage is plain <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>-dom, So f**k 'em. Find other players, travel to other places, just don't sit there and tolerate not being able to field your legal army just because other people can't figure out how to beat it and are threatening to turn you into a pariah because of their personal weakness.

-

He didn't say they had trouble filling 2 on 2's, he said people didn't want to play across from him.

But your right, finding other players and traveling to other places is much easier then droping the twin lash so your friends have a fun time playing against you :D .

[El Magnifico]

i've fought the twin lash a few times, i actually enjoy those games because they force me to think tactically (as opposed to going "hmmm, my 200pts GK Grand master CAN take down a dreadnought with his NFW, awww to hell with it - CHARGE!! :lol: )

 

i actually aggree that if your friends/group do not wish to play you - find out why!!!

 

 

i am by my own admission a powergamer, i ALWAYS play to win. i also always offer advice to my opponents and generally have a laugh during the games i play. only yesterday i sent a 183pts farseer into combat ON HER OWN with the tau commander farsight and a full retinue and a shas'o attached, she died in his turn but the image of about 10 battlesuits pounding her into the ground had us laughing for a while (i diddnt tell him that i just wanted to hold up the squad untill my guns/tanks/assault units could all be brought to bear :) )

 

 

you can play competetively and still have a fun and memorable game, you just need to be polite and follow a bit of social ettiquette.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

-

He didn't say they had trouble filling 2 on 2's, he said people didn't want to play across from him.

But your right, finding other players and traveling to other places is much easier then droping the twin lash so your friends have a fun time playing against you ;) .

 

Whether or not they have a fun time doesn't supercede the fact that you're fielding a legal list, and they have no right aside from pure personal spite to deny you the ability to play that list. If they can't beat the list you bring to the table, the fault lies in their lists, not yours. Why should you have to get bullied away from playing your legal army just because someone else is crying about losing? Saying it's his attitude that's the problem and not calling the other parties to task for their even-worse attitudes is hypocrisy. So yes, it might just be easier to go elsewhere than have to defend a Codex legal army from a solid bunch of whiners. There is no such thing as an unbeatable list as long as it was legally built; the fault lies in the lists of the losers, not the winner's.

[Y'he Sha'is]

Lots of times it's just personality. We used to have a player who did Eldar and the old Word Bearer Daemon Bomb army, two of the meanest things out there (back when the second one still existed), and mainly gamed with us to practice for tournaments, which he regularly finished first or second. Needless to say you pretty much never had a chance against this guy. However, he would always give you advice, joke around, and the best part, cheer for your side! I never had a game against him that I didn't enjoy, regardless of how bad I lost. It was fun.

 

This is so true. I've found that even the most nasty lists are fun to play if both you and your opponent are having fun/joking/enjoying yourself, and even the dumbest lists can be terrible if the opponent is a jerk. The real question lies in the gaming group: are you playing in a fluffy gaming group, or are you playing in a tournament-style gaming group. If you play in a fluff-gaming group, I think it might be tough to argue/explain for a 2-lash list (possible, just not probable in my mind), while a tournament gaming group should have no problem with this. If you are fluff-based, then maybe you should fluff out your list (write history, explain characters names/equipment, etc) but if you are tournament-based, you should find new friends. My guess here is that you are a tournament-based player in a fluff-based group.

 

So to deal with this problem, I'll give you my example: I have a 1500 point Tau list that has yet to be beaten at my local club (maybe 40 games now, +/-, about 30W/0L/10D). I'll take it out once in a while, but I warn people that it's pretty nasty (which it is and is meant to be). I've tabled Marine armies by the 3rd turn with no tau losses, but I still have tons of people that want to play me, even though the list is agruably cheesy. I like to win, and I try very hard to win when I play, but the point of a list being cheesy or not in friendly gameplay is two-fold:

1. If you are playing a list that you think is nasty/power-gaming/strong in a fluff-based environment, warn the opponent. Let them know that you think you made a great list that is all about winning (which cheddar-lists are). It takes the sting out of the loss for them, or it gives them something to brag about if you lose. This also prevents you from having to change your list for your friends attitudes, and gives you vital playing time for your good army.

2. Root for the other side. Seriously, it's actually fun when you are playing an overpowering force. Especially if it is a power-game list (see above). Don't do anything stupid to give the game away, but, especially with Chaos, I find it fun to make fun of your own army and call your commander names to give the opponent something to laugh about, and to play off the already perceived nastiness of your list. I actually like when some of my Tau die because it's good to see my opponent get excited that he killed a crisis suit, and the little blue guys need to die once in a while (for the greater good and all that...). With my tau, they are affectionately called "Stinking Communists" by most of the group now, and it gives them character and something for all of us to laugh about. The atmosphere and joking around really makes a huge difference.

 

In tournaments or a tournament-based group, a list is a list. No such thing as cheese there, just cheating or not cheating.

[chillin]

Whether or not they have a fun time doesn't supercede the fact that you're fielding a legal list, and they have no right aside from pure personal spite to deny you the ability to play that list. the fault lies in the lists of the losers, not the winner's.

-

They have every right not to play against someone they have no fun against, whether it's b/c of the list they consider broken/cheesy/whatever or b/c of the persons attitude. In a non-tourney setting, people are under no oblagation to play you. Just like you are under no oblagation to go out for a drink w/ someone you don't have a good time with. I guess it's just a difference in attitdue, when I'm playing a friendly game, I want to have a good time and I want the person playing against me to have a good time.

But we're kinda hyjacking the thread, so... good day.

[Captain Idaho]

They have every right not to play against someone they have no fun against, whether it's b/c of the list they consider broken/cheesy/whatever or b/c of the persons attitude. In a non-tourney setting, people are under no oblagation to play you. Just like you are under no oblagation to go out for a drink w/ someone you don't have a good time with. I guess it's just a difference in attitdue, when I'm playing a friendly game, I want to have a good time and I want the person playing against me to have a good time.

But we're kinda hyjacking the thread, so... good day.

 

i agree with everything said in here. its true 100, why should some not enjoy themselves just so you can get your self off on winning? i am 24 years old and am more than capable of sticking up for myself (ex-boxer, been in numerous street fights etc - im not proud but its been a hard upbringing), so im sure as hell not going to do something i dont enjoy just to make some loser feel good about himself. (and if you need to win at all costs and ruin other peoples enjoyment of a game just to feel like a winner, that makes you an actual loser)

[Brother Nicolas]

There's one player at our store who will constantly run overpowered lists and tailors them pretty much any game. On top of that he constantly comes across as condisending and is overall kind of a jerk, and he managed to lay down that final straw that broke me from ever wanting to game with him again, 40k or otherwise.

I've got a pretty fluffy list at 1500 pts for my Angels of Vengeance, and it's mediocre at that point level, and absolutly worthless at any other. It's a tough army to play to begin with. So we've got a newer Tau player who's got a little under 1200 points or so painted, and for some reason we decided to allow this other guy to use some of the Tau players empty slots and fill with some of his guard stuff to bring thier side up to 1500. Turns out that he decides to draw a standard Leman Russ and a Destroyer Tank Hunter from the Armored Company list, with the Destroyer being crewed by a tank ace. Sweet. My core unit is my Deathwing squad with a Librarian in TDA... who now get to try and get across the table with an AP2 Blast weapon staring at them. So turn one, straight up crap scatter for the deepstrike, even worse Inv saves, and there goes 5 of my Terminators... oh wait, that's the whole freaking squad. Now my Master of the Deathwing and my Librarian are indipendant characters standing in the middle of the field about 6" closer than the rest of my army. After one shot.

The next 5 turns are spent wondering why I play this &$%@ing game. Thankfully after that he left and I got to vent about it and not feel like too much of a dick. See, I'm the nice guy of the gaming group and have a hard time turning down somebody for a game, especially somebody who none of the experienced players are really willing to play. But I'm pretty sure I'm going their way now.

And the crowning glory of all of this? He commissioned me to convert that $@ tank for him a couple months ago. I built that #*&%ing tank.

 

Not quite the same problem, but it's just the biggest problem I've run into. It's just no fun to play against this guy. There's even been games that I've beaten him pretty well, and he still sucks the fun right out of it, usually by claiming that certian rules work some way, being insanely stubborn about it, and not even admitting he was wrong when you rub his nose in the BBB where it blatantly says that Defensive Weapons are NOT strength 7 lower. Either that or his downright unpleasant level of cockyness. What it all comes down to is that for some reason or another, games involving this guy are NOT fun, no matter what the outcome.

 

You just need to talk to them and find out what exactly is making it less than fun to play against you, and if it is that you've just got an unbeatable list, then maybe tweak it a little and *gasp!* challenge yourself by running a list where you've actually gotta think and maybe even have little chance winning. Some of my most enjoyable games have been where I've gotten spanked. "I may have lost 90% of my army, but my freakin' scout seargent b*tch slapped Eldrad into the warp, so I claim moral victory."

 

We have someone like this at our gaming group. Once he relizes that he will not win against a person or that he is going to have to think about what he does to try and win then he will normaly not fight that person, he likes to go for the new kids in the club so that he can try to pull out any cheese he can, even sometimes cheating. Most people in the club do not like fighting him and in large games he will hid his chars and let eveyone else go first, then if he thinks no one is looking he will move some of the models or change a scatter to give him something to glote about.

 

I am not saying you are this person, but even after 2 years, though he has gotten better, he still does not relize how he is treating people. I would take a look at how you play, the army you play with, and after you win a game or lose a game what you say and how offten you say something. You might not even relize that you are bragging or putting other people down.

 

Now this may not be a reason, they may just really hate the choas lists or maybe its your dice rolls hehehe; I had to take a long break from playing the game becuase it didnt matter what army I had people new how my dice rolls were and didnt like facing that. (I have gone in 6000 point games and made every 5+ inv save through the game)

[Muskie]

-

He didn't say they had trouble filling 2 on 2's, he said people didn't want to play across from him.

But your right, finding other players and traveling to other places is much easier then droping the twin lash so your friends have a fun time playing against you B) .

 

Whether or not they have a fun time doesn't supercede the fact that you're fielding a legal list, and they have no right aside from pure personal spite to deny you the ability to play that list. If they can't beat the list you bring to the table, the fault lies in their lists, not yours. Why should you have to get bullied away from playing your legal army just because someone else is crying about losing? Saying it's his attitude that's the problem and not calling the other parties to task for their even-worse attitudes is hypocrisy. So yes, it might just be easier to go elsewhere than have to defend a Codex legal army from a solid bunch of whiners. There is no such thing as an unbeatable list as long as it was legally built; the fault lies in the lists of the losers, not the winner's.

 

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it admirable, let alone moral.

 

"Victory needs no excuse, defeat allows none."

 

That's all well and fine written on the bottom of the page, but if you piss off your "friends" so much you have no one to play with... It isn't even always the list but the annoyance of playing against some people. It just isn't worth the effort. I get to play less than one game a month. If the game is not fun I play even less...

 

It's only a game. Everyone who thinks they are some bad ass 40K player usually finds out once they leave the friendly confines of their little clique they aint so $hit hot.

 

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled,

or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is

actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly,

who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions,

and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he

fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and

timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

 

--Theodore Roosevelte

[the jeske]

yeah ok , but it means then when you have a good army that you worked on just as hard as your friends [well at least spend cash on it] , your friends will only face you , if you take sub optimal choices and a weak army [there are many reasons for that maybe they dont wont to spend more cash , maybe they dont want to learn how to play better , maybe they just dont like to lose] . I had my share of "fluff guys" trying to force me in to playing a list they wont . For example half year ago I have been in NY , friends from the russian consulat took me to a shop to play . We happened to run in to a tournament . I ended 3ed with my wifes SoB [i like to play with them because they are master painted] . All the guys including the shop owner decided I have a un fluffy lists and they wouldnt play me again . I asked why and they told me :"its because you use all those tank[aka rhinos] and sisters should be footslogging and you dont use other Inq units". Lets just say my jaw droped after that .

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I cannot believe you're all advocating this nonsense. Firstly, the opponent has no say about the composition of your legal army list (with the exception of Forge World stuff) even in a non-tourney game, and secondly, no one builds a list to lose with just because someone else wants to have fun. You want all dogs to go to Heaven, go play Chutes and Ladders. The points system is there for a reason; what you do with the points is up to you, not the opponent. They should know only that they're going to be facing 2000 points of Chaos and that they should plan accordingly. I fight lists I despise more often than not (Eldar and Dark Angels), and lose to them almost every time, but I would never condescend to deny someone the ability to play those legal lists just because I don't like them and have a rough time of beating them. No, I'm not "obligated" to play them outside of tourney, true, but I'm there and ready to play anyway, so why waste the trip just because I might have to face a Phoenix Lord or Deathwing list? I don't like losing any more than anyone else does, but if I lose to a legal list, the fault is mine and mine alone for not being capable of beating it; the fun is not in the victory, but in the battle itself. Besides, friendly games aside, is it not wisdom to face the kind of armies you would be facing in a tourney, where you can't just say "I don't want to play against that, it's a double Lash army"?

 

If they're cheating, smash them. If it's an illegal list, smash them. If it's a legal list and you just don't like losing, smash yourself. Then try harder.

 

You all keep bringing up the "friends" issue. Friends have the character to recognize that the burden of responsibility in having fun is theirs, not someone else's. I decide my own level of involvement, just like everyone else, but refusal to be involved is even less fun than playing and losing. Half the point to all this is the challenge of facing the enemy with whatever you have to offer. How many of you would stand there and take it if your opponent told you that you can't field your Terminator Lord with daemon weapon because they "wouldn't have fun fighting against it"? How many of you would actually remove the Lord from your list to appease someone else's sense of fun? If one of my crew told me they weren't going to play me because I'm fielding three Defilers, I'd probably set their hair on fire if they can't give me a rules-based reason as to why I can't when my Codex says I can. 40K is turn-based; if they don't want to play me because it is a personal problem of theirs, I'd sit there and play against myself until someone with a spine and a sense of fair play shows up and wants a piece. A friend would praise you for sticking to your guns in spite of the pain; what are they saying behind your back if you cave in to emotional extortion every time someone has a personal gripe about what you choose to field?

 

Oh, and Muskie: wrong Roosevelt quote, Teddy would never have tolerated this prattle. Here's a better one: "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. In this life we get nothing save by effort." The easy road is not to play; the hard road is to play and lose, but still you play. Admirable and moral is nice and all, if you're a proponent of cheap morality, but where's the admirable and moral in being a bully and being rude by making someone a pariah just because you don't like their legal list, unless they change that list into something their list can beat? Cheese is not a reason or a justification to be a dick; be a mouse instead.

[the jeske]

ohh people quote Roosevelt the most hated by Europeans president of all time .

[Brother Nihm]

ohh people quote Roosevelt the most hated by Europeans president of all time .

ixnay on politics.

[Lost_and_the_Damned]

Khestra, nice. I completely agree.

 

While I -still- encourage friends to play fluffy lists and I continue to play fluffy lists myself, I still completely agree with everything you said. Might as well copy/paste it and put it into this post I'm making right now.

 

-LatD

[Tfcdogbert]

I think this can be easily sumarised.

 

You can field whatever you want to field within the confines of the force organisation and codex.

 

Your opponent can choose whether he wishes to spend his time playing it if he knows he will not have fun doing do.

 

Such is either persons right.

 

I personally have no problems with army lists of any kind, i will have a problem if the person playing it is a complete ****, playing really powerful tournament lists is what i would describe as a learning experience, it only isnt a pleasent experience if the guy im playing is a complete... *string of words that would get censored*

[Playa]

Hey,

 

You can field whatever you want to field within the confines of the force organisation and codex.

Your opponent can choose whether he wishes to spend his time playing it

 

Bam! We have a winner. ;- )

 

@OP:

If people don't want to play you, the question then becomes, "Do I still want to play them?"

Since you asked, the answer must be "yes", so some accomodation may be in order.

Giving your Lash Princes a different Power is an easy place to start.

 

Conversely, don't overcompensate and give away easy victories -

Ideally, both sides should have the *same chance* of victory.

 

 

Pla - DNRC - ya

[Y'he Sha'is]

You all keep bringing up the "friends" issue. Friends have the character to recognize that the burden of responsibility in having fun is theirs, not someone else's.

That's not true at all. Especially with friends, it's the whole group that determines the level of fun. One jerk can ruin everything for the group (be that a rules-jerk or a fluff-jerk). We've all played against guys that are dicks, and even if you trounce them, you don't have fun. It's the whole groups "burden", in your terms, to keep the playing fun. So the key is to have likeminded individuals playing. This also means that if a guy wants to run a kick-ass list, it's up to the group to have some fun with it (i.e. when they beat it, it's time to talk some SERIOUS trash). And fun isn't simply about winning or losing, but about the game itself.

 

I'd sit there and play against myself until someone with a spine and a sense of fair play shows up and wants a piece.

I agree with you on this Khestra, however, what I think you are failing to realize is that there are differences on what people consider "fair play". I 100% agree that if it is in the rules, it's legal. However, some people that I play against think that you should also have elements of creativity, originality, complexity, etc., as well as being a competative list, to make the game "fair" (in their eyes), and that allows it to be more than a group of models on the board. Neither one of these is more correct than any other, because, from the BBB, it's a rule that the opponents should have fun... and the definition of fun is so different across people its' hard to determine, universally, what's fun.

 

I much prefer to play in a very competative environment, so any legal list is fair game. I love to beat supposed unbeatable lists, and I think the challenge is fun, but that's not everyone, just keep that in mind. If you want to stay in the same gaming group, it's about the group you play with, so either the group has to change to be a more competative group, or you have to change to be more of a fluff-guy. Or you can play with yourself...

[WorldEaterDP]

khestra - you're the man I agree with you 100%

 

So thing's have gotten a little rough since I last posted this.. I did the 2vs2 with eldar and chaso vs tau and nids- The nid player quit into the 3rd turn and kept telling me how he won't play agaisnt the lash of submission. I guess having bunch genestealers moved back 10 inch's and into a circle sucks? " He also told me my list had no place in the game etc- (I think cause we drink when we play more <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> happens) So a big fight occured becasue I was pointing out how funny it is a nid player refusing to play someone ( let alone 4th editon chaos player). I told him I would happly never run lash again if I could use the old codex. I think he shortly left after that .. since we had time I got the Tau player who is very competive to run a 1500 army agaisnt my (new list). He also quit at the top of the 4th turn and said few unkind things before he left. I told him not to let the door hit him on the vagina on the way out. If I didn't have a <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>ty codex (thanks gav thrope) I don't feel like this would be going on since I could get away with running a more balanced list. My current list is 7-0 -- 2 sorcs/wings/lash - 4 squads of 5 noise marines/all with sonic blasters/9 oblierators.

[flintlocklaser]

I told him not to let the door hit him on the vagina on the way out.

Still think it's the list people don't enjoy playing against?

[Brother Nihm]

@WorldEaterDP

Please adjust the language in future posts.

And with that, this topic comes to a close.