A(nother) Retinue Rant

[Primarch Naogedd]

With the proposed kill-zone changes in 5th edition, I am all set for a steaming, profane venting, mainly due to the new Chaos Codex having no damn retinues. The way I have read the changes, it seems that since I cannot pick out even the 4 or so guys that I can directly go to base contact with, my independant characters have a considerably shorter lifespan, because I cannot engage the Sergeant and know in my evil little heart that he and his little friends that were foolish enough to be on the wrong side of my Daemon Weapon will die. In 5th edition, I will not be able to finish the Power Fist sergeant that I am in base contact with before he crushes my Chaos-blessed corpse with his Power Fist. The fact that retinues were somehow overlooked will be the death of every IC that I care to field.

 

I guess it would be just that difficult to put a third-of-a-page sidebar in, and save us all the indignity of our beautifully-painted Chaos Lord with TDA and Daemon Weapon be destroyed by the first 40-point scout sergeant with power fist that they come across.

 

Can anyone think of a way to escape the looming death of ICs without retinues in 5th editionÉ

[the jeske]

Chaos Lord with TDA and Daemon Weapon be destroyed by the first 40-point scout sergeant with power fist that they come across.

well its your foult to buy and paint a model that both doesnt work in the 4th[termi to slow] and in the 5th[hard to clear kill zone , big mass units supported , termi armor still slow].

[DeathsHead]

Chaos Lord with TDA and Daemon Weapon be destroyed by the first 40-point scout sergeant with power fist that they come across.

well its your foult to buy and paint a model that both doesnt work in the 4th[termi to slow] and in the 5th[hard to clear kill zone , big mass units supported , termi armor still slow].

 

No. It's GW's "fault" that their game is 75% broken, because they can't develop a satisfying, sensical rules set. And it's the "fault" of people like yourself for pushing everything to this point by reducing the hobby to a gigantic game of checkers with some fluff far, far in the background. Congratulations!!!

 

To respond to the original poster, I too think that ICs are taking a very serious blow in 5th edition. It actually reduces most ICs to a kind of points sink, especially Chaos Players, with our very expensive HQs. The proposed kill-zone changes make a typical HQ actually less threatening than an aspiring champion or vet sergeant in many cases. Even a retinue (which we don't have, though I'm hoping this problem will be corrected) wouldn't really fix this issue.

 

Would it really have been so difficult to prevent the game from degenerating into HeroHammer without totally neutering HQs?

 

Edit: I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that the kill-zone change wont make it into the final version of 5th edition, and that an expanded, global "retinue" rule is included in the main rule set.

[Hally]

I just play friendly games in which I can use a retinue. Simple as that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

While I'm fine with the proposed rules for retinues in the 5th Edition, I am kinda annoyed about the current lack of retinues.

 

However, can I just say that I fail to see your logic, DeathsHead, in saying that the jeske is one of your "problem gamers". the jeske has always been a good member of this site. Yes, he writes lists for effectiveness, rather than fluff, from what I know, but that doesn't make him one of the rules-lawyering piece of crud that abuses the rules for all they're worth. Tone it down a bit on the personal attacks there.

[Cornelias]

Chaos Lord with TDA and Daemon Weapon be destroyed by the first 40-point scout sergeant with power fist that they come across.

well its your foult to buy and paint a model that both doesnt work in the 4th[termi to slow] and in the 5th[hard to clear kill zone , big mass units supported , termi armor still slow].

 

well you could say that.........

 

 

but on the other hand no armylist should have units/entries that "don't work" or they should just have left them out the armylist in the first place. :pinch:

[davidren2401]

but on the other hand no armylist should have units/entries that "don't work" or they should just have left them out the armylist in the first place. :pinch:

 

Chaos bikers. Enough said.

 

Personally I feel the loss of daemonic gifts and other wargear options was a much bigger blow to chaos then the forthcoming killzone changes. My army was once lead by a Daemon Prince of Khorne who truly deserved his title, up to 11 attacks on the charge with one re-roll for spikey bits, a 2+/4+ save and feel no pain. He was a monster who could absorb the undivided attention of a Tau ARMY for 2 shooting phases and still walk out alive. What do I have now? A Tzentch prince, 6 attacks on the charge (re-rollable but still! Only 6!) a 3+/4+ save and no feel no pain. He's a ghost of what he used to be. The new rules won't affect my games much anyway because we've been taking our causualties from the back since the start, the general sentiment in my group is that if your character can be insta killed he doesn't deserve to be leading your army, as you can imagine Brood Lords, Adamantine Mantles, Daemonic Runes and Pheonix Lords are common foes of mine. I'm more worried about the nerfing of force weapons.

[chillin]

Personally I feel the loss of daemonic gifts and other wargear options was a much bigger blow to chaos then the forthcoming killzone changes. My army was once lead by a Daemon Prince of Khorne who truly deserved his title, up to 11 attacks on the charge with one re-roll for spikey bits, a 2+/4+ save and feel no pain. He was a monster who could absorb the undivided attention of a Tau ARMY for 2 shooting phases and still walk out alive.

-

The very reason D. gifts and wargear was done away with, and rightly so IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I think they couldn't have toned it down with out getting rid of it all togrther.

But game winning monsters like that are why we now have canned HQ's.

Yet they made nid MC's even stronger in the "new" nid dex B) . Go figure.

[Smurfalypse]

Personally I feel the loss of daemonic gifts and other wargear options was a much bigger blow to chaos then the forthcoming killzone changes. My army was once lead by a Daemon Prince of Khorne who truly deserved his title, up to 11 attacks on the charge with one re-roll for spikey bits, a 2+/4+ save and feel no pain. He was a monster who could absorb the undivided attention of a Tau ARMY for 2 shooting phases and still walk out alive.

-

The very reason D. gifts and wargear was done away with, and rightly so IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I think they couldn't have toned it down with out getting rid of it all togrther.

But game winning monsters like that are why we now have canned HQ's.

Yet they made nid MC's even stronger in the "new" nid dex B) . Go figure.

 

 

I agree 100% here. Because of people like you who feel the need to have totally insane HQs is definately part of the reason why they are being sandbagged so harshly, so instead of complaining about it, take in part of the blame. I was playing in a goofey game the other day and i ran a world eaters army list, my leader was a chaos lord on a juggernaught, daemon weapon, mark of khorne...We had a four way carnage senerio going on (get to the middle of the board and hold it) and one turn he charged a hive tyrant and just obliterated it (inflicted 8 wounds in all), the next turn he managed to charge a unit of plague marines and wiped the entire group (9 to be exact), then promptly got assualted by a unit of genestealers and bit the dust :yes: All in all it was a glorious death and shows that you can still have a hatemonger for a leader.

[Romulas]

retinues?

why bother

can't any character join a unit?

 

worry about 5th when 5th hits, for now play and have fun, its just a game.

[Primarch Naogedd]

Yes, but when an IC joins a unit, and then goes into close combat, he can still be singled out like an IC. The reason for a retinue is to make him not an IC, so you can pull the same wound-allocation trick with your own guys.

[Joah from Alberta]

Having your IC in a CLR might help a little in fifth. Otherwise, jetpack for mobility or DP is the only way.

[DeathsHead]

Yes, but when an IC joins a unit, and then goes into close combat, he can still be singled out like an IC. The reason for a retinue is to make him not an IC, so you can pull the same wound-allocation trick with your own guys.

 

...what?

 

Apparently I've been missing something. Can someone elaborate on this? I never knew there was anything special about retinues besides the fact that your IC could start the game in one.

 

By the way, I never questioned the jeske's contributions to the board. My overly venomous retort (which was undeserved - my apologies, jeske) had more to do with the widespread "gamer" attitude which reduces the game into a purely mechanical, "competitive" activity. In my mind, it should work more like an RPG. It's an issue of personal opinion, in the end.

[Primarch Naogedd]

For the majority of retinues, a character no longer counts as an Independant Character (capital letters and all) so he can allocate wounds onto the meat-shield guard. That is why the lack of retinues in the Chaos Codex, especially in 5th edition, will be such a hard blow, because all the BA Librarians with their damn honour guard will be polishing their force weapons and waiting for our guys to come to them.

[Aarhus]

Chaos Lord with TDA and Daemon Weapon be destroyed by the first 40-point scout sergeant with power fist that they come across.

well its your foult to buy and paint a model that both doesnt work in the 4th[termi to slow] and in the 5th[hard to clear kill zone , big mass units supported , termi armor still slow].

 

No. It's GW's "fault" that their game is 75% broken, because they can't develop a satisfying, sensical rules set. And it's the "fault" of people like yourself for pushing everything to this point by reducing the hobby to a gigantic game of checkers with some fluff far, far in the background. Congratulations!!!

 

Bravo!

 

Exactly how I feel.

[BrainFireBob]

Primarch Naogeddon-

 

My understanding is that ICs always fight as their own unit in CC.

 

I fail to see where retinues remove this gem.

 

EDIT:

 

Doublechecked my old Chaos Codex and the 4th Ed Rulebook. Retinues may not be left at all, that's it. Nothing about this in the Chaos codex removes the IC rule I can see. So this rules change makes no difference to how the rules state you should play 4th Ed. If you were playing it differently, that's your problem. They were *always* their own unit in CC, even if with a retinue. You sir, have been taken a non-rules legal advantage if you have not been playing it that way.

 

FURTHER EDIT:

 

Just as an FYI, too, characters are supposedly to be attach-able to any unit prior to game start in 5th. This means that all the old retinue benefits may be taken by any Chaos character with any squad, literally making a separate retinue redundant unless maxing out a FOC.

[Tokunator]

I have just checked all of my currently legal codices and with the exception of the Daemonhunters, none of the retinues really protect you from being targeted under 4th ed rules. As a matter of fact, the Space Marines even have the explicit rule that a Command Squad does not prevent yo from being targeted. So I fail to see where the problem is under 4th or 5th edition rules.

 

 

You should also consider the fact that all 5th ed. codices (DA and later) got rid of retinues, so we can expect the same from the new Marine book and the following codices.

 

And as people already said, play 5th edition when it is out and available in the shops instead of starting to whinge based on speculations and ILLEGAL bootleg copies circulating on the Net.

 

 

OT: I have to agree that some players should start considering that other players might like to field fluffy armies and not attack them for doing so. If nothing else, they should be the ones reconsidering their choices. I have been called a tournament gamer and am known for building strong lists, but I always let the fluff come first, be it naming all of my 163 Blood Angels (my Alpha Legion remained anonymous due to their fluff) or making sure that my army reflects the fluff (i.e. no mixed marks in a unit, no double Prince or Lord AND Prince....).

[the jeske]

and one turn he charged a hive tyrant and just obliterated it (inflicted 8 wounds in all),

hmm higher I implant attack 6 attacks .. how could a hth tyrant die to a chaos lord [or on the other hand how did a non close combat tyrnant get in charge by a model with a treat range of 12" ]. strange.

 

which was undeserved - my apologies, jeske)

no need to , am to tough skined to get offended by most stuff. Also lol If only my russian mates could read that . A gamer and not a fluff player :wink: and they call me a fluff nazi here .

 

but on the termi lord [maybe i was to harsh] . Naogedd fell to the good old GW new and shiny rule. The mode is nice its plastic and is in the battle force [what is a good thing because its easy to make him that 6th termi everyone needs] . Sure it would be cool , if the lord /dp and sorc were both cool and playable , just like in the WFB where a mounted , foosloging or a monster mounted Lord is a nice and playable option[ok , ok for some armies]. Sadly this is w40k where most dex have 1 good way to play and all others are inefficient or to tailored against a specific enemy to be good armies .

 

on the fluff side . what is fluff today ? it looks like all the legions are a one big happ.. spiky family with lucius working hand in hand with Khârn and tyfus casting spells with ahriman .

[DeathsHead]

on the fluff side . what is fluff today ? it looks like all the legions are a one big happ.. spiky family with lucius working hand in hand with Khârn and tyfus casting spells with ahriman .

 

Yeah, things have gotten awfully multicultural in the Eye of Terror recently. Abaddon's flagship has been host to a lot of speakers about diversity, tolerance and social justice.

 

I don't know about Warhammer Fantasy, but I honestly can't see how anyone could feel really enthusiastic about playing pick-up battles (let alone tournaments) with things as they are. Everything is such a clumsy let down in terms of rules that I don't have any interest in playing games outside of narrative-oriented, background heavy campaigns with a lot of house-ruling. However, I would very much like for things to be otherwise.

 

Note: That guys Terminator Lord on foot would work just fine, if everyone hadn't tailored their list to be as winning efficient as possible. And that's what a lot of this comes down to for me; I can't help but feel that "we" (the gamers, fans, etc.) are more than little at fault too, for generally not appreciating the game enough from a non "Magic: The Gathering" perspective.

[the jeske]

if everyone hadn't tailored their list to be as winning efficient as possible.

another words you would like other players to play weaker or weak armies , so that you can play with your under performing termi lord ? Again this is not mean as an insult or anything , but why would anyone want to tailer a list to lose [because of taking inefficient/not working units].

[davidren2401]

if everyone hadn't tailored their list to be as winning efficient as possible.

another words you would like other players to play weaker or weak armies , so that you can play with your under performing termi lord ? Again this is not mean as an insult or anything , but why would anyone want to tailer a list to lose [because of taking inefficient/not working units].

 

Because sometimes inefficient/not working units are fluffy? I have a defiler in my army. It sucks. It is the only non-transport vehicle I have so it attracts so many lascannon shots on turn one that if it lives into turn two pilgrams gather to wittness the miracle. Nevertheless nothing says WE ARE IRON WARRIORS better then a gigantic ordanence lobbing daemon machine.

[Brother Nihm]

It's all situational,

I mean Possessed are great, when they reach CC unscathed, and have rending.

The problem is they don't, and they aren't guaranteed to have that ability - and they cost too much for what they do.

 

Likewise - Chaos Bikers are great, if you play at around 4k+ points.

At 1500 points, they aren't that hot compared to Raptors.

 

 

The infamous Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour with a Daemon Weapon is also rock solid, if only he could reach CC without having to:

1. Buy a Landraider.

2. Deepstrike with his 'Retinue' (which doesn't exist anymore) and

3. Move fast.

 

The list goes on.

I find that in a tournament environment, players will always go for units that perform well in more than one situation.

Unless they have a strategy that can consistently force said situation to occur. (i.e. Ranger spam lists from the Old Craftworld Eldar codex)

 

The problem is when fluff collides with actual rules, because it just so happens that in this campaign/your personal fluff/GW's fluff - the personal bodyguard of the Word Bearer lord Lasboltsinface is a squad of 10 Possessed marines, and/or a trio of Chaos Dreadnoughts! :)

 

And this is where most Chaos players shake their heads in frustration, because a great number feels all units should have a valid use in a list, and not just be crippled/useless and inefficient compared to bog standard chaos space marines.

 

As for the proposed changes in 5th ed.

Let's worry about that when we get there, in my humble opinion 9/10 IC builds haven't been worth much since the new Codex hit us.

I doubt that 5th Ed. will change that.

 

 

My 2 Kraks.

[JamesI]

I have to agree with Brother Nihm. I love the model for my terminator lord with deamon weapon. He never touches the table. Once he deep strikes, he might wipe out one unit, then spend the rest of the game walking to the next to kill. Not all options are equally good.

[Corrupted]

Lets bring this back in to the topic on hand, which seems a bit off. Characters are separate units in HtH, as current 4th ed rules stand. In fact in the DH and WH codex you have to take a special member of your retinue in order to jump in front of an incoming swing in close combat. I don't see any difference in the proposed 5th ed rules...

[Maeklos]

The only exception is, I believe, a Grey Knight master who, if he takes a Retinue, loses the Independent Character rule. Oh, and of course IG officers.