A(nother) Retinue Rant

[AkiraCho]

nihm hit it on the head, its just setting up the situation that hurts us the most. but we usually cant so meh

[Smurfalypse]

and one turn he charged a hive tyrant and just obliterated it (inflicted 8 wounds in all),

hmm higher I implant attack 6 attacks .. how could a hth tyrant die to a chaos lord [or on the other hand how did a non close combat tyrnant get in charge by a model with a treat range of 12" ]. strange.

 

which was undeserved - my apologies, jeske)

no need to , am to tough skined to get offended by most stuff. Also lol If only my russian mates could read that . A gamer and not a fluff player :P and they call me a fluff nazi here .

 

but on the termi lord [maybe i was to harsh] . Naogedd fell to the good old GW new and shiny rule. The mode is nice its plastic and is in the battle force [what is a good thing because its easy to make him that 6th termi everyone needs] . Sure it would be cool , if the lord /dp and sorc were both cool and playable , just like in the WFB where a mounted , foosloging or a monster mounted Lord is a nice and playable option[ok , ok for some armies]. Sadly this is w40k where most dex have 1 good way to play and all others are inefficient or to tailored against a specific enemy to be good armies .

 

on the fluff side . what is fluff today ? it looks like all the legions are a one big happ.. spiky family with lucius working hand in hand with Khârn and tyfus casting spells with ahriman .

 

 

Its called one person have better tactics than the other. I used a bait unit and he went for it, my possessed were sitting in front of some other units and they soaked a hellish assualt than my lord counteded into that and wiped the CC. The only benifit of retinues vs joining any old unit is the fact they can do it before the game and usually a force organization chart thing where a retinue might not take up a slot. A chaos lord in termy armor who wants to deepstrike probably is going to be doing it alone as he cant join a unit off the board, this of course means if your term lord may have to deepstrike solo and that is a deathsentence. Hopefully that is an issue that will be resolved sooner or later so that the termie lord model can be used more often because its very very sexy.

[Wolfbiter]

@BrainFireBob: You mentioned a rumor that under 5th Edition rules, ICs will be able to join units prior to deployment. Has anyone heard word whether ICs will be able to join units in reserve/deep strike?

 

I think that allowing a Chaos Terminator Lord/Sorceror to join a unit of deep striking terminators without the IC having to roll separately to appear would be a HUGE improvement to the current ruling and make Terminator Lords and Sorcerors as ICs a lot more playable. The current rule of "roll separately for the unit and the IC, and if you succeed on both you can join them," makes no sense to me.

[Cornelias]

And this is where most Chaos players shake their heads in frustration, because a great number feels all units should have a valid use in a list, and not just be crippled/useless and inefficient compared to bog standard chaos space marines.

 

 

My 2 Kraks.

 

that was exactly my point Nihm thx, i think people missed what i was getting at:D

[Primarch Naogedd]

They took out that retinue rule? B)

FINALLY!

 

I don't know exactly when this was, but in one version of the BA/DA (as well as IG) codexes (was it 3rd or 4th?) if you took an honour guard/command squad for your IC, he became basically the same as a sergeant in a unit; you couldn't pick out the character so you would hack at his command squad and get your soul sucked to the warp by the sissy Loyalist Librarian in his squad, using his men as meat shields so he could instagib your guy.

 

Wait... it would be a very Chaosy thing to do, to use your "command squad" as a meat shield.

 

"HA FOOL! Your pitiful force weapon attacks are wasted on these fools who wished to "guard" me. Now feel the wrath of my massive greatsword of Undivided Death!"

[Soulmage]

For the majority of retinues, a character no longer counts as an Independant Character (capital letters and all) so he can allocate wounds onto the meat-shield guard. That is why the lack of retinues in the Chaos Codex, especially in 5th edition, will be such a hard blow, because all the BA Librarians with their damn honour guard will be polishing their force weapons and waiting for our guys to come to them.

 

Read your FAQs. Independent characters ALWAYS count as ICs - even if they have a retinue - for the purposes of who can attack and be attacked in assault.

 

ICs have to be in B2B to attack, and can have attacks allocated specifically to them whenever they are in b2b.

 

I can understand why people would be so upset about loosing retinues if they've been playing the rules wrong!

[Dammeron]

Funny that you should mention Chaos Lords and their retinues...I've just finished an update of my home-grown Chaos Codex in the house rules section that allows Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerers AND Daemon Princes to take retinues of one sort or another...shameless plug.

[BrainFireBob]

Exactly, Soulmage. Which is why all the kvetching about the new Chaos 'dex has long since passed ridiculousness. It's become such a "search for something to gripe about" that people are griping about losing things they either didn't have or didn't lose- such as retinues "protecting" ICs. That was a 3rd Ed rule, never a 4th Ed rule.

[the jeske]

It's become such a "search for something to gripe about" that people are griping about losing things they either didn't have or didn't lose- such as retinues "protecting" ICs

well man off topic or I will write it . You are wrong . People did lose a lot and if you ever read some serious players or gamers write about the new chaos dex you would know . Losing a playable tournament army is a lose . Its not something that someone images .

[BrainFireBob]

Missed the point entirely, jeske- congratulations!

 

There were some things lost. People griped about them.

 

They then became so worked up over "worst thing EVER" that they began reaching and stopped looking at what was in the codex- to the point people are griping about things that were not lost!

 

And "losing a playable tournament army?" The army still works in tournaments. Or are you complaining that the army has to change, since it no longer includes valid combinations? That's just edition turnover. It can suck, but as to that, them's the breaks.

 

The accusation that I don't know is laughable- I've been part of these debates since the rumor debates started.

 

Are you now maintaining that retinues removed the IC rules under 3.5? Because they sure as hell didn't. The OP is inarguably wrong in complaining about this "loss."

[Dammeron]

Missed the point entirely, jeske- congratulations!

 

There were some things lost. People griped about them.

 

They then became so worked up over "worst thing EVER" that they began reaching and stopped looking at what was in the codex- to the point people are griping about things that were not lost!

 

And "losing a playable tournament army?" The army still works in tournaments. Or are you complaining that the army has to change, since it no longer includes valid combinations? That's just edition turnover. It can suck, but as to that, them's the breaks.

 

The accusation that I don't know is laughable- I've been part of these debates since the rumor debates started.

 

Are you now maintaining that retinues removed the IC rules under 3.5? Because they sure as hell didn't. The OP is inarguably wrong in complaining about this "loss."

 

 

Well, there's a whole heaping mess of assertions.

 

First of all, you ASSERT that those of us who utterly despise the current codex merely do so on a reactionary basis, that we haven't read it OVER and OVER again in an attempt to find somethign laudible. I have, and I imagine many others have as well, and the more I read it, the more I critically consider it, the more insulting and incompetent a product I find it.

 

As for armies not losing things, my ENTIRE Chosen fo Slaanesh retinue is now USELESS. Each model in it was painstakingly converted to represent a particualr character for whom i spent a great deal of time and creative energy making up back stories for, back stories that I could do a degree represent on the battlefield before, which now I cannot. Oh, and ebfore we go down that route, no, I don't really give a monkeys about my army's ability to nerf others in play; I've never been much of a "competitor" in that regard anyway. my principle fascination is the background, and its rperesentation on the battlefield. I enjoy the roleplaying element more than anything, or rather I ENJOYED the role-playing element whilst it was there.

 

My Daemonettes, two painstakingly converted and painted squads of them, now relegated to being do-nothing, boring as Hell generic daemons. My Converted Noise Marine Lord, Daemon Prince, Chaos Sorcerer....the list of negated and next to negated models in my army is practically endless.

 

But more than anything, I bemoan the evident loss of character in ALL chaos armies produced from the existing army list. It is a lazy, half-baked, half-finished, poorly edited, contradictory, ambiguous, cartoonish, boring, dumbed-down, condescending, patronising, phoned-in piece of sewage that I ha no intention of EVER using again, or simply settling for out of fan-boyish "loyalty" to the GW brand.

[BrainFireBob]

Missed the point entirely, jeske- congratulations!

 

There were some things lost. People griped about them.

 

They then became so worked up over "worst thing EVER" that they began reaching and stopped looking at what was in the codex- to the point people are griping about things that were not lost!

 

And "losing a playable tournament army?" The army still works in tournaments. Or are you complaining that the army has to change, since it no longer includes valid combinations? That's just edition turnover. It can suck, but as to that, them's the breaks.

 

The accusation that I don't know is laughable- I've been part of these debates since the rumor debates started.

 

Are you now maintaining that retinues removed the IC rules under 3.5? Because they sure as hell didn't. The OP is inarguably wrong in complaining about this "loss."

 

Well, there's a whole heaping mess of assertions.

 

What, you maintain that retinues removed IC status in 4th (which they didn't)? If not, you did not read my post, and are responding in reactionary ignorance.

[the jeske]

And "losing a playable tournament army?" The army still works in tournaments. Or are you complaining that the army has to change, since it no longer includes valid combinations? That's just edition turnover. It can suck, but as to that, them's the breaks.

first if you play noise hvy EC , the list wont be legal [wrong weapon options ] . Also the fact that I can use the same models [what in some cases like the AL cultists , EC sonic weapons , cult terminators etc is not true] , it by far doesnt mean that that army is still a playable one . Try to win a tournament with models you used for an EC or WB demon bomb army . Hard to do , right?

 

Are you now maintaining that retinues removed the IC rules under 3.5? Because they sure as hell didn't. The OP is inarguably wrong in complaining about this "loss."

am russian and english is not my first language , but you may noticed that I started my whole posts with "off topic" am not arguing the lose of body guard rule [tournament wise the whole idea of giving a non DP HQ anything else then inflitration and demonic speed was stupid], I was arguing that fact that you said people didnt lose anything . Because thats bull<DELETED BY THE INQUISITION> [its thats how its writen ? am not really good at english curse words].

[BrainFireBob]

Well, as English isn't your first language, I'll restate.

 

I never said people didn't lose anything. I said they're so dedicated to finding things wrong, they're effectively making things up now/being very sloppy.

[Brother Nicolas]

if everyone hadn't tailored their list to be as winning efficient as possible.

another words you would like other players to play weaker or weak armies , so that you can play with your under performing termi lord ? Again this is not mean as an insult or anything , but why would anyone want to tailer a list to lose [because of taking inefficient/not working units].

 

 

LOL, the head campain guy in our gaming group after two months of non stop wins (almost) or if we get a new influx of new guys to the group will build "to lose" lists with the models he has and right now he has lost one game and draw two.

 

The only thing I really have to say is that if something is not working change the way you are using it. Just because he is a big nasty moster does not mean you have to run him out and let him get shot or spend the points on a LR to get him across the board. If your list is an attack list then dont take him but if you are doing say a def list creat a unit that he will join at start of game and have them as a counter attack unit (or even have him by himself) I have done this in my IW lists that I used to play were he was the only anti cc unit I had everything els was shooty (and then he was pretty basic).

 

Not all Chaos Lords run head straight into an enemy, how many hid in the shadows and only come out when they are in the corner?

[Teethgrinder]

Well, there's a whole heaping mess of assertions.

 

First of all, you ASSERT that those of us who utterly despise the current codex merely do so on a reactionary basis, that we haven't read it OVER and OVER again in an attempt to find somethign laudible. I have, and I imagine many others have as well, and the more I read it, the more I critically consider it, the more insulting and incompetent a product I find it.

He's done nothing of the sort. BrainFireBob has stuck to the topic and helped to clear it up - and in doing so pointed out that the "New Codex Flogging" bandwagon has led to people complaining about losing things they never had in the first place. Like the perceived protection afforded by retinues. And people are hijacking what he's said as an excuse to rant again about the Codex.

 

And "losing a playable tournament army?" The army still works in tournaments. Or are you complaining that the army has to change, since it no longer includes valid combinations? That's just edition turnover. It can suck, but as to that, them's the breaks.

first if you play noise hvy EC , the list wont be legal [wrong weapon options ] . Also the fact that I can use the same models [what in some cases like the AL cultists , EC sonic weapons , cult terminators etc is not true] , it by far doesnt mean that that army is still a playable one . Try to win a tournament with models you used for an EC or WB demon bomb army . Hard to do , right?

Seriously. The Retinue "issues" in this thread's original post have long been settled. There's a dedicated "New Codex Flogging" thread for this sort of thing. Can it not all stay there and let this thread die?

[Brother Nihm]

Seriously. The Retinue "issues" in this thread's original post have long been settled. There's a dedicated "New Codex Flogging" thread for this sort of thing. Can it not all stay there and let this thread die?

It can indeed.