Love Slaanesh, HATE Noise Marines...

[Askari]

What do you mean? Noise marines are just as good as other cult troops. Their sonic weapons give them great versatility as both good assault troops and good shooting troops. And you act as though other cult troops have some freakish amount of other options. Besides you can build a slaanesh force without any noise marines using a little something called an icon. I really don't see where this whole GW hates Slaanesh thing is coming from.

[Dammeron]

What do you mean? Noise marines are just as good as other cult troops. Their sonic weapons give them great versatility as both good assault troops and good shooting troops. And you act as though other cult troops have some freakish amount of other options. Besides you can build a slaanesh force without any noise marines using a little something called an icon. I really don't see where this whole GW hates Slaanesh thing is coming from.

 

The only benefit the standard Noise Marine has at present over a standard Chaos Space marine in a squad with the Icon of Slaanesh is Fearlessness without paying an exorbitant points cost for weapons whose capabilities are, to put it mildly, over-rated. Compare this to, say, Plague Marines, each of which comes Fearless, at +1 toughness, with FnP AND Blight Grenades AS STANDARD, or with Thousand Sons, that benefit from Fearlessness and come equipped with a better than average Invulnerable Save AND Inferno Bolts as standard.

 

I never once mentioned that Noise Marines have a lack of options, per se (although they do, but then again, so does everything in the current codex in comparison to what went before), nor did I ever make the claim that GW "hate" Slaanesh. It is simply evident that, in order to make the God and its somewhat ribald aspects palatable to an increasingly young audience, the company is slowly but surely moving it away from its traditional state as the incarnation of untamed desire, perversity, deviance and excess, to the more sanitised realm of general "sensation" and the attainment of "perfection". If you doubt this, then grab a second hand copy of RoC: Slaves to Darkness and compare the representation of Slaanesh with that of modern-day publications. You will be surprised.

 

And please don't put words/opinions in my mouth. That is not the way to conduct any reasonable debate.

[Askari]

Frankly fluff is pretty flexible and you can think of Slaanesh as perversely and darkly as you want and model your army in that way but GW is a business and needs to make money and one of the best ways to do that is by attracting more customers. You can just look at it as Slaanesh followers starting out looking for simple new sensations and the pursuit of perfection but then becoming debased over thousands of years which is basically the story of the Emperor's children. As long as you have that copy of Slaves to Darkness you can just pretend like the new alterations to the fluff don't exist and just ignore them.

 

Onto the actual gaming points, I'll give it to you that plague marines are ridiculous but really compared to the other cult marines noise marines are still pretty good. So what if the thousand sons can get marines with ap3 bolters that always count as stationary? Noise marines can get 24" stormbolters and ap3 heavy flamers or they can be tooled up to act as heavy fire platforms with a blastmaster. Noise marines are a great assault unit that can do a lot of shooitng damage as well so they're basically better chaos space marines which i happen to believe is good. And they have I so they'll be striking before most opponents.

[refuse]

The thing is that if they had taken the sado masochistic aspect then by now thanks to the policy of simplifying rules and trying to make most special rules and abilities universal rules from the rulebook they would just be marines with feel no pain big woop. Of course they could have gone down the road of leadership bonuses for taking wounds but really marines don't have a problem with leadership and most people don't want their expensive cult troops to only be effective when they're being blasted away.

 

Mark of Slaanesh Slaanesh

• 2nd
  
  • Immune to Fear and Terror.
    

  [*]3.0

  • +1 Atttacks
    

  [*]3.5

  • Fearless
    
  • -1 to enemy I
    

  [*]4.0

  • +1 Initative
    

The presentation of Slaanesh has always been a problem for GW. Look at Daemonettes (when they existed for Slaanesh Chaos Space Marines).

The imagery of the Deamonettes says alot about GW's representation.

 

During RT era, they were not terribly attractive, but had an Eldar look to them.

During 2nd edition, they were "overly" safe, with big lobster claws.

During the 3.5 version of Chaos, they were "sexy" and 2000s semi-naked.

Now in C:Daemons (as they don't exist in C:CSM) they are back to the RT era.

 

There is a very big implication in the "attractiveness of daemonettes". You are not drawn to them because of thei rlooks. :blink: But because of their allure.

As for drugs, nice suggestion but Dark Eldar already have the army full of combat drugs.

DE didn't come out till 3rd edition.

DE serve Slaanesh, so are a great example of what Slaanesh Marines could be. Self serving, with torture on their mind.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/gethookedbig2.jpg

 

The other 17 senses that no one knows or cares about: seriously if they did that then people wouldn't understand what they had to do with slaanesh and it would be pretty hard to make rules for them.

Like sonics aren't? They have tried in 4 versions and keep changing it.

The idea of "daemonic" gifts in 3.5 were excellent, especially combat drugs. Speed, strength, extra wound. . . You pick, and as much as you want, but you may over dose. Let the player have choice, and use the fluff to justify the reason.

Same could be done for the other marks. Sometimes Khorne killers are fast, sometimes strong, sometimes hard to kill. Back when we could tweak the units (gifts, veteran skills) you could separate your army from the one next to it.

Heck it even promotes modelling and some "less then useful" daemon gifts like "Daemonic Visage"

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_DPfront.jpg

My main characters had "daemonic visage" Face of a keeper of secrets, face of a fiend of Slaanesh, and I would have continued with daemonettes, and steeds.

 

Frankly fluff is pretty flexible and you can think of Slaanesh as perversely and darkly as you want and model your army in that way but GW is a business and needs to make money and one of the best ways to do that is by attracting more customers. You can just look at it as Slaanesh followers starting out looking for simple new sensations and the pursuit of perfection but then becoming debased over thousands of years which is basically the story of the Emperor's children. As long as you have that copy of Slaves to Darkness you can just pretend like the new alterations to the fluff don't exist and just ignore them.

 

There is a fallacy.

GW needs customers (new or old) to spend money. More customers is an option, but one that "mortgages" the bank. You need more and more each year, as you alienate your customer base to focus on new customers. You need stickyness and longevity if you want constant CAGR. New blood may purchase big items, but long term veterans will start "wasting" their money. i.e. Forgeworld, 3 boxes to make one unit. The issue isn't as easy as getting new customers (though it is less taxing to focus on people that don't know better), you need good word of mouth, and an established base to promote it.

 

Onto the actual gaming points, I'll give it to you that plague marines are ridiculous but really compared to the other cult marines noise marines are still pretty good. So what if the thousand sons can get marines with ap3 bolters that always count as stationary? Noise marines can get 24" stormbolters and ap3 heavy flamers or they can be tooled up to act as heavy fire platforms with a blastmaster. Noise marines are a great assault unit that can do a lot of shooitng damage as well so they're basically better chaos space marines which i happen to believe is good. And they have I so they'll be striking before most opponents.

1k Sons

AP 3 bolters, that fire 1 shot at 24 (on the move). 2 shots up to 12, with a 4+ invulnerable save

With a 40pt upgrade for a sorcerer with a force weapon, 18" assault AP3 assault 3 weapon, gift of chaos, or a 24" s8 Ap1 assault 1 psychic power.

 

Noise Marines (with sonic blasters cost 2pts more then 1k Sons)

24" AP 4 weapon (2 at 24 if moving, 3 if not), no invulnerable save.

With a 40 pt upgrade (same as the sorcerer above), you get 36" HB, or a 48" (no move) missile launcher.

 

So honestly, if you were statically standing, CSM are better as they are cheaper, though they need 10 models to get the heavy weapon. With the icon of Slaanesh they have the same stats as Noise Marines (except they are not fearless), and about 1/2 the shooting.

 

 

 

1k sons (assuming you didn't want sorcerers) got a major buff in this codex. Noise marines stayed about the same. So 1k Sons are a better short range, with better options (sorcerer) then Noise Marines. Death Guard are better HTH, or getting into HTH (though you could argue that with lower I, and the 1k Sons having a 4+ inv that they may be better, but the +1 T counts for alot, and then there is feel no pain)

 

Noise Marines are good at assault assuming you are assaulting other marines with I4, or races with I5. I>5 and I<4 assaults waste the additional points for Noise Marines. Upgrading Noise Marines to shoot, means that in a 6 man squad, you spent 2 additional bodies in Sonics. If you upgrade to a blastmaster, you just spent 3 more. The Doom Siren, Assault 1 AP3 is nice, but out of place unless you are going to get close to the enemy.

 

So midrange get into the fight, Death Guard are better (more survivable), the Noise Marines (assuming no sonics as you are trying to get into a fight) are no better then CSM in maneuvering, and the almost as cheap (again the sorcerer is mandatory, so. . . ) as 1k sons.

 

Mid rang shooting (12-24") the EC have an advantage at equal cost, though against marines, the probability comes out about equal. The 1 shot vs 3, against marine armor (AP4> they both ignore carapace). So NM are better at shooting through hordes 12-24" away, and about equivalent to 1k Sons at 12-24" for MEQ. (on the move, slightly better standing still)

 

At 12" or less, on the move they are moving. As the 1k Sons now equal their shooting, but they are better against MEQ troops. The blastmaster allows for pining so that is in the Noise Marine's favor.

 

>24" the Emperor's children blastmaster helps as the 1k Sons can't shoot that far.

 

In assaults vs MEQ, the +I help the NMs survive, against power weapons, MCs DCCWs and others the 1k Sons' 4+ invuln helps them (as the NM have no invulns).

 

So if you were a manuvering force, or assaulting marines, the NM work better or as good as 1k Sons.

For the rest. .. It may be a toss up.

 

Noise marines go well with the fluff, provide a nice unique weapon, and they have nice simple rules that don't need to be checked every game by you and your opponent to use them. That's probably why GW went with them.

Actually, They did "ork rockers" and Chaos rockers back in the 2nd edition days. I think they just used the archetype for Slaanesh. "Beserkers" for Khorne, "Plague Marines" for Nurgle. For Tzeentch they went with the legion (1k sons), and for Slaanesh, they punted and used their Guitar marine model.

[Dammeron]

Frankly fluff is pretty flexible and you can think of Slaanesh as perversely and darkly as you want and model your army in that way but GW is a business and needs to make money and one of the best ways to do that is by attracting more customers. You can just look at it as Slaanesh followers starting out looking for simple new sensations and the pursuit of perfection but then becoming debased over thousands of years which is basically the story of the Emperor's children. As long as you have that copy of Slaves to Darkness you can just pretend like the new alterations to the fluff don't exist and just ignore them.

 

Onto the actual gaming points, I'll give it to you that plague marines are ridiculous but really compared to the other cult marines noise marines are still pretty good. So what if the thousand sons can get marines with ap3 bolters that always count as stationary? Noise marines can get 24" stormbolters and ap3 heavy flamers or they can be tooled up to act as heavy fire platforms with a blastmaster. Noise marines are a great assault unit that can do a lot of shooitng damage as well so they're basically better chaos space marines which i happen to believe is good. And they have I so they'll be striking before most opponents.

 

Looks like Refuse has beat me to the punch ^_^

 

Yes, fluff is indeed flexible, but the point is, as the army lists currently stand, you are funnelled into playing Slaanesh forces in a particular way, which is via the fielding of Noise Marines. There are no other options. Refuse is quite apt in suggesting that a much more accurate way of representing the servants of Slaanesh and indeed all of the "cult" marines would be via the provision of a standard unit for each to which particular benefits/abilities can be applied at the player's discression, and for a particular points cost.

 

As for your more specific points concerning the game, Refuse has quite eloquently dealt with them.

[tankbusta]

@ Refuse, I agree 100% with your first post, Slaanesh is more than sex. I'd considered the 7 Deadly Sins aspect of Slaanesh as well. Great minis, too!

 

5 Senses working overtime to stimulate the pleasure centers of the SM, per the fluff from that time. In many ways, the Noise MArines are the antithesis of the SM for the SM are selflessly devoted to duty, an SM will deny himself pleasure for the Emperor's sake, all things not directed towards the service of the Emperor are frivolities. Noise Marines on the other hand, deny themselves nothing, constantly overdriving their weaposn and senses in order to achieve pleasure from burned out nerves, they have no discipline, only selfish and total abandon..

 

I've been playing 40K since the Rogue trader era. It was obvious from the introduction of Noise Marines that it was the extreme emotional response humans have to music, was the driving force behind Noise Marines. Hell , a heavy metal band called Bolt Thrower even made a song called "Noise Marine." (Not very good , IMO, but if someone like Iron Maiden had done it, I am sure it would be fantastic.) I'll bet money that several of the GW developers had attended some heavy metal shows during metal's heydays in the late '80's. Anyone who's been in the pit where the bass and drums pulse through your body while the guitar solos pierce your ears and make your spirit soar, the rhythms make you move almost involuntarily; they understood the power of rock!

 

The Horus Heresy does a good job of describing the origins, motivations, and attractions of Noise Marines.

[Askari]

Watch dethklok and put all of the main characters in power armor and imagine them going on one of those crazy murder rampages and you've got noise marines.

[Greysensei]

Chaos is personal. It is, what you are, or better yet, it is what you want, perceive, see.

Your chaos isn't my chaos. Your sins are not my sins. My lust isn't your lust. Or his, or hers or theirs. The weak will follow the strong, the strong define their chaos, and the chaos for the weak.

So for me, my perception is based as you say on my concept of personal responsibility. Of course, the trap may be in the pride of thinking I am strong. Personal responsibility, may be a sin. Or perhaps any strength may be your greatest interest

 

Refuse has already explored the key to the chaos forces in my opinion, its personal freedom. Loyalists are constrained by rules and tradition, as well as the limited philosophy of their creation and use. Chaos has always tried to be the anti-thesis of the loyalists, where they are restricted, chaos is freedom.

 

The noise marines fall very much into this bracket. I am also not a great fan of the sonic blaster or doom siren, I don't think they are very viable as weaponry, but as refuse says the fluff and rules apply a framework for your own imagination, so if you don't like sonic weaponry, then use the rules, and make your own interpretations of the models. Convert and explain to your opponents, make your own take on the fluff if necessary. Basically if you remove the fluff then you have a series of nasty firearms, how they work is only limited by your imagination.

 

I do think that although not ideal, GW had to move the base and introductory fluff for slaanesh away from the sex and drugs onto something safer (music). We may sit on this forum usung words like beat, but sex for slaanesh wouldnt be consenting with victims, and gang beat has no place in a game, even the storyline. If you read the Inquisitor Trilogy (a largely debunked novel, with various miss-fluffs now) there is a section where the forces of slaanesh are described "enjoying" themselves, and its a little too close the knuckle. The fluff shouldn't be an excuse for soft porn for geeks. It is right that they have moved it onto safer territory, and Fulgrim, for me anyway, nicely brought the fluff full circle, and explained the noise aspect.

 

Slaanesh is about freedom, so exploit this with your modelling and gaming. Its like the picture of the emperors children in the new codex. We could discuss the pros and cons of power armour with bondage straps, but we can overlook this. Bondage trousers in a warzone would not be overly useful, realistic or practical. But they look the part, and fit with the look of the marines. Treat noise weaponry as you bondage straps. Use them if you like, but its not essential.

[Brother Amarel]

Interesting topic.

 

I generally agree with Refuse here but I would raise a slight dissenting voice over the what the Gods mean to their followers.

 

Tzeentch, the need for someone else to change things.

To me Tzeentch is more about having the power to utterly change yourself and those around you to match what you whims and fancies dictate. It's about the human need to be whatever you want to be instead of being constrained by who you were as and what people expect of you.

 

Nurlge, the need to survive, live, and rely on someone to save you.

I think it's simpler than that, it's simply the promise of ever-lasting life.

 

Khorne, the need to kill or destroy those that you blame for your problems.

Khorne is all about recognisable power. It's not working behind the scenes it's about brash declarations of conquest via command.

 

Slaanesh, the need to hide in sensation, addiction to hide your own failings.

Followers of Slaanesh do so to exist outside of standard morality. It's to do with doing what you want, to whom you want, when you want, with no repercussion.

 

Anyone who has read pretty much anything about the Roman Empire will easily find Emperor's who fit into the ideals of one of those gods.

[apparition]

I see what you are saying about sex and beat Greysensei, but if we are talking about sending a immoral messages out to children personally i dont think the vast quantities of genocide against civilians that occurs in 40k is much better morally. Perhaps its not questioned because things like genocide are so difficult to comprehend compared with the violation of an individual. But war is ultimately horrific, always has been and always will be and i dont think it should be glamourised by sanitising it. There are more evils that go on in war than simply killing so whilst it shouldnt feature heavily, i think this should be reflected in the fluff. Of course this may not be the best business model for GW to adapt because our culture is full of double standards on morality and so i can sympathise with their position to a degree. Just my thoughts

[Greysensei]

I see what you are saying about sex and beat Greysensei, but if we are talking about sending a immoral messages out to children personally i dont think the vast quantities of genocide against civilians that occurs in 40k is much better morally. Perhaps its not questioned because things like genocide are so difficult to comprehend compared with the violation of an individual. But war is ultimately horrific, always has been and always will be and i dont think it should be glamourised by sanitising it. There are more evils that go on in war than simply killing so whilst it shouldnt feature heavily, i think this should be reflected in the fluff. Of course this may not be the best business model for GW to adapt because our culture is full of double standards on morality and so i can sympathise with their position to a degree. Just my thoughts

 

 

Indeed, you are correct, there is very little in the way "pleasentness" in GW when examined, I think this maybe a reason for lack of public knowledge of GW (better i say). I just feel it is easier to sanitise war (what a horrific concept, I know) within our language, whereas sex is not that easy. Its the same with the drugs option. They could use real world drugs concepts to represent rules for slaanesh, with different cults representing different drugs, but its a little too close to the knuckle. I used to have a slaaneshi lod called ketamin hole, but the lads at the GW I was attending at the time that explaining the name reference was a little difficult to the younger players. I had to agree.

 

But to sum, I feel you are right. Its easier to keep war as a distant, TV experience for kids, whereas crimes against a person is harder. Its probably indicative our societies, that the killing of thousands by super ordnance is acceptable fiction, whereas sex is seen as a little hardcore!! madness!! To get back on topic, the noise marines are a "watered down" version of futuristic liberalism, but I see the reason why.

[Eirik_Xenobane]

I don't know where all this 'sex' crap came from. Slaanesh has ALWAYS been about desire in it's purest form, Slaanesh offers release from ethics, morality and social constraints. To be honest sex is the most base and boring interpretation of this concept, but probably the first one teenagers would latch onto.

 

The Noisemarines are about pleasure taken to the utmost extreme, sensation driven into their nerve centres via their senses. I've listened to music that runs the gamut from classical to black/death metal. I've felt goosebumbs on my skin listening to Beethoven's ode to joy and jumped into moshpits simply to cut loose and for a few brief moments not care about anything but the music. I think the noisemarines try to capture and extreme version of this.

 

When people go on about beat, torture and sado-masochism they are not talking about the Slaaneshi concept of desire, they are talking about cheap shock tactics. Taking what modern morality considers wrong and focusing on that 'evil' as the driving force of chaos.

 

Chaos is not 'evil' there is no good or evil in 40k and the fluff and stories do a good job of showing this. The danger of Chaos is not that it's somehow a black and white embodiment of evil, the danger is subtle, it's Human desires and dreams without limitation.

[Arachnid]

"Dance, dance for the joy and pleasure of pain"

 

-Slaanesh

 

 

 

What happens when a legion of extreme perfectionists start to revel in all the delights their bodies can endure?

(and more)

 

 

They seek it everywhere, greedily devouring each sensation without contemplation of morality.

 

How deep that rabbit hole goes? well thats up to you.

 

 

That said, slaaneshi marines or maybe the daemonettes should be a bit more like clive barker's cenobytes, and less "OMG BOOBIES!!"

[Tfcdogbert]

Slaanesh is just normal human drives, taken to extremes, whether thats sex, violence, noise, eating (to go out on a limb), pain or vanity, however, sex, violence and pain are the most morally repugnant to people in society as a whole, hence thats why those are traditional bits associated with slaanesh because chaos is "Bad" hence has the worst of the excesses imprinted on it.

 

I personally think that slaanesh cult troops should have got drugs, drugs that they take to liven their sense, to increase their physique, to make their world clash and take all of what they are sensing to an extreme but sometimes cause them to self destruct, (in the same fashion that Dark eldar get).

[Arachnid]

yup, i agree, combat drugs should have been an option.

 

quite surprised that they arent really, seeing as emperor's children have a habit of offing civilians to turn em into drugs :D

 

 

Oh, and it seems some ppl are wondering "why noise??"

 

well according to fluff, noise marines have had the sense of hearing directly connected to the pleasure-centres of their brains. (more or less)

thanks go to fabius bile for that one.

 

just imagine.. the screams of the dying and the battle's roar ringing in your ears, making you go all happy in the pants :cuss

[refuse]

yup, i agree, combat drugs should have been an option.

 

quite surprised that they arent really, seeing as emperor's children have a habit of offing civilians to turn em into drugs ;)

 

 

Oh, and it seems some ppl are wondering "why noise??"

 

well according to fluff, noise marines have had the sense of hearing directly connected to the pleasure-centres of their brains. (more or less)

thanks go to fabius bile for that one.

 

just imagine.. the screams of the dying and the battle's roar ringing in your ears, making you go all happy in the pants ;)

Actually.

 

 

WD 144

 

The story of the Noise Marines

 

 

Planets do exist in the Eye of Terror, though they are nothing like those in the material universe. The worlds in the eye of terror are self-contained universes where the laws of time and space depend upon the whims of the Daemon princes that rule over them: where skies of fire light lakes of boiling blood, and a thousand other unimaginable perversities of nature flash into existence and pass away each day.

 

 

Upon one such world, ruled over by a Greater Daemon Prince whose name is represented only by a scream of utter abandon, stands the colossal fortress of the Noise Marines. This bizarre and unique fellowship of Space Marines honor Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure. They scour the galaxy, bringing death and destruction to all, squeezing each planet dry and throwing it aside before moving on to the next succulent prize, never stopping to measure the loss of blood. The Noise Marines were once loyal Space Marines sent to battle against a distant threat, not well understood at the time, but which proved to be nothing less than the advancing hordes of Slaanesh, Lord of Pleasure and Great Power of Chaos. They were not killed on that long forgotten battlefield, but suffered a fate far worse - they were horribly altered by the mutating power of Chaos. Their Space marine Senses, already honed by careful genetic engineering, were worked on by further magic, overturning the Imperium's work and creating a new creature known as the Noise marine.

 

 

A Noise Marine's hearing is a thousand times keener than a normal Space marine's and can distinguish between the subtlest differences in pitch and volume. In itself, this ability would not serve to corrupt such a steadfast servant of humanity as a Space Marine, but the Noise Marine's sense of sound affects his whole mind, causing extreme emotional reactions that make all other sensations pale and worthless. The louder and more discordant the noise the more extreme the emotional reaction provoked, and the more tawdry and vile seems the everyday sensation of life. Eventually only the din of battle and heightened screams of fear can stir the Noise Marine. His mind ceases to reason and becomes a mere receptacle for sensations ignited by the music of the apocalypse and the screams of the dying as they dance upon the path of destruction.

 

2nd and 3rd Edition Chaos Codex

 

Noise Marines are Chaos Space Marines who have deicated themselves to the Chaos God Slaanesh. A Noise Marine's hearing is a thousand times keener then a normal person's and can distinguish the subtlest difference in pitch and volume. This affects the Noise Marine's brain, causing extreme emotional reactions that make all other sensations pale and worthless. The louder and more discordant the noise the more extreme the emotional reaction provoked, until only the din of battle and the screams of the enemy can stir the Noise Marine. His mind ceases to function and becomes a mere receptacle for the sensations ignighted by the music of the apocalypse and the screams of the dying as they dance upon the path of destruction!

 

Noise Marines wear powered armor painted in a variety of bold colours, as the Noise Marine's senses are so distorted that only the most extravagant colors and patterns register on their minds. They are armed with a variety of outlandish weapons that produce deafening loud and pyrotechnically explosive attacks.

 

 

Index Astartes Article on Emperor's Children

 

Though not all of the Emperor's Children are perverted to the degree of Noise Marines, many still enjoy the cacaphony of their sonic weapons.

[iamblakkmetal]

Ive always disliked noise marines, mostly because I dont like the idea of sonic weapons.

 

 

That and Ive seen way to many Noise Marines converted to look like glam rockers (with guitars as weapons and such). Har har har. Original and amussing the first time. By about time 58394328943 it was old.

[Shrapnelsmile]

The Noisemarines are about pleasure taken to the utmost extreme, sensation driven into their nerve centres via their senses. I've listened to music that runs the gamut from classical to black/death metal. I've felt goosebumbs on my skin listening to Beethoven's ode to joy and jumped into moshpits simply to cut loose and for a few brief moments not care about anything but the music. I think the noisemarines try to capture and extreme version of this.

 

Precisely. Anyone who has taken psilocybin mushrooms with their girlfriend and spent 10 hours listening to bands like Godflesh and My Bloody Valentine, surfing the astral plane as every synapse reels in unfettered bliss while they invoke every inch of one another's skin without one single consideration of moralastic constraints knows the power of sensual music. NOT that I am relaying any personal information in a publicly accessible forum, of course...

 

If escapism via sensation (regardless of preference) continued unchecked until devotees were numb and empty shells of a soul, would not the earth shaking din of battle, the shriek of decibels beyond belief, the screams of men as their bowels explode, would not that be a subtle reminder of the pleasure they once, foolishly, sold themselves for? As so eloquently stated above, a mere whisper...

[tortoise]

I don't have anything to add to the philosophy debate- I think it's already been covered very well.

 

However, many of the opinions voiced about noise marines don't seem so applicable to the current model. There really isn't anything about the metal sonic weapons that says 'guitar' to me. And am i the only one who thinks that those long fingers encased in soft leather gloves, probing into the heart of the weapon, is vaguely sexual (and not in a OMG boobies!!! kind of way. I personally find the current sonic weapons to be an excellent representation of the Slaaneshi aesthetic. Graceful and elaborate yet with a disturbing undertow to it. Of course, this whole look kind of goes out the window if you stick a head with bloody great big horns it it onto the model's body...

[Shrapnelsmile]

I don't have anything to add to the philosophy debate- I think it's already been covered very well.

 

However, many of the opinions voiced about noise marines don't seem so applicable to the current model. There really isn't anything about the metal sonic weapons that says 'guitar' to me. And am i the only one who thinks that those long fingers encased in soft leather gloves, probing into the heart of the weapon, is vaguely sexual (and not in a OMG boobies!!! kind of way. I personally find the current sonic weapons to be an excellent representation of the Slaaneshi aesthetic. Graceful and elaborate yet with a disturbing undertow to it. Of course, this whole look kind of goes out the window if you stick a head with bloody great big horns it it onto the model's body...

 

I think the horns are completely subject to taste ... I've seen stag / primal pagan / green man type Slaanesh in fantasy that work very well.

But I fully agree with that their sonic weapons look well done. I did not mention in my above post defending the utilization of music and sound in the fluff that the appealing concept was NOT enough to get me to play Emperors Children when I started the game -- because then it was the guitar figures and absolutely hated them, I still do. They looked more ridiculous than the Kiss trading cards I would sneak into church at the age of 6 to avoid passing out from sheer boredom. The worst GW has ever offered us IMO.

 

I would like more speakers / amps on their sculpts now, however, but the option to add sonics (and the excellent lord / aspiring champ that is still available) make things versatile enough for most peoples palates it seems.

[Greyjoy]

You know, Fulgrim has lots of info on Slaaneshi followers and Noise Marines.

 

It would be better if all of us read it before posting here...So we all have similar knowledge of the subject at hand.

 

Imo, after reading the book, I can conclude that those who follow the Philosophy of Slaanesh see pleasure and desire above all other things, just like the book Julius read, before the EC converted.

 

The philosophy that they acquired and now teach is that you cannot live a complete life if you don't enjoy every moment of it, and take pleasure in everything.

 

As to Noise Marines...They're a fun unit, but there should be a couple of others..Some for the sense of Touch, others for Sight, Smell...etc

[Rain]

If GW were so averse to sexualized Slaaneshi imagery then why create the 3.5 daemonettes with their shapely b-cups? I mean go ahead and say that sex is an "unimaginative" extrapolation of a god of depravity, but the fact remains that not only is it a natural high due to the dopamine and serotonin released into the brain (which by the way, can be addicting as what we think of as drugs are generally reuptake inhibitors which keep the brain from reabsorbing certain neurotransmitters ergo increasing their presence in the brain; sex achieves a similar effect by dumping stored neurotransmitter), and then when taken to some extreme "fringe interests" it is a huge cultural taboo as all of the ruckus in this thread can attest to and is therefore right up Slaanesh's alley.

 

Also, as has been mentioned, Slaanesh is probably the patron of violation and therefore personal pleasure at the cost of someone else's pain and defilement. I think the point is that if you can talk about it on this forum without heavy use of euphemism (as I have) then it is probably too conservative for Slaanesh and so "loud music" should go back to the realm of the dread Chaos God Ru'prt Merdok and Slaanesh should get back it's hedonism and rejection of arbitrary outside social constructs.

 

Furthermore, I think there is a great element of self destruction in all of this as the cost of giving yourself over to your base desires requires a sacrifice of the ideals and morals you probably once had (especially as a space marine) and once you hit the bottom you realize that there is nowhere really to go and so you curl up inside yourself and just continue the cycle, constantly repeating the self harm even though you are aware where it is leading. For me this seems to be a lot more intriguing that the idea of "jaded brainless rocker marines" as it gives them a tragic quality as victims of a kind of forced apathy borne of hopelessness that they are trying to drown out in pain and ecstasy. This eventually of course leads to a certain loss of individuality as you become more of a receptor of emotion, or at least so it would seem from the outside, but inside there must/should be some self realization of this, hence the "damnation".

 

Oh and as for reading Fulgrim, I recommend also reading the source of McNeill's ideas in Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray, which is basically Fulgrim without space marines and written by a real author.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

just to throw my few pennies in,

I LOVE noise marines,

when people ask what army I play and I say chaos nesh force and they laugh at me I challenge them to a game and low and behold my noise marines have pulled off some ridiculous games, I've seen space marine players cry out in anguish as a lone NM champ (rest of squad wiped out by terms or devvies) runs up to their vet squad or devvies and uses his ap3 flamer template... whoops did you want those guys?, I've sprinted squads at terms before and not even managed to get into H2H before, term armour is more vunerable than people believe especially against 8 sonic blasters, a blastmaster and bolt pistol running towards them, 17 str 4 shots and 2 str 6 shots on the move for a 10 man squad thats horrible.

 

Against Eldar my opponent brought his scorpions in from the table edge and assaulted the NM holding the objective there he killed my champ and blastmaster guy (damn you wound allocation :D ) but the scorpions as a result were torn limb from limb and fled the combat only for my NMs to catch them and hack them down.

 

Noise marines are so versatile that they are hard not to like, whilst their fluff may not go hand in hand with nesh which whilst it niggles me is quickly forgotten when they hit the table and startakillin things, they are amazing on the run, they can hold points ridiculously well 10 man squad putting out 25 str 4 shots and a str 8 pinning blast a turn is a huge deterrant no matter your armour save, especially unless you are against elites choices 9.9 times out of 10 you will strike 1st in h2h, add to that the fact that they are fearless, have the amazing blessing to have bolters/sonic blasters + bolt pistols and cc wep as mentioned in this topic

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=147015

which all in all makes them a little good, and the vast majority of chaos players overlook them despite the fact that they are the (using ork terms now) shootiest boyz around

 

if me and one of my friends go to a gw store and find a challenge we mix and match our chaos forces and produce an army on the spot to fight people, but whilst we change our HQ's, Fast Attack, Elites and Heavy Support the only constant we use is my Noise Marines for troops because they ain't been beat yet.

 

edit: I apologise for the lack of punctuation

[Lord_Caerolion]

uhh... Zealot? Have you read the thread? This topic isn't about whether they're effective or not, its about whether they properly portray Slaanesh.

 

And I second Rain's statement, Portrait of Dorian Grey is a very fitting book for Slaanesh.

[Dammeron]

For my money, a much more appropriate way to represent Slaanesh units (and the "cult" units in general for that matter) would be to have a stabdard unit for each cult with a particular stat line and special rules (e.g. Furious Charge for Khornate units, Feel no Pain for Nurgle units, perhaps Fleet or something to that effect for Slaaneshi ones) then a number of particular weapons options if one wishes to upgrade them further. For example, a cult of Khorne could be upgraded to "berserkers" by allowing the option to purchase Khornate chain weapons (that provide +1 strength in the same manner as Striking Scorpion chain blades), a cult of Slaanesh could have the option to be upgraded to "Noise Marines" by allowing the option to purchase Sonic Blasters, Blast Masters etc. There could also be options to upgrade them with alternative weapons/abilities for a suitably prohibitive points cost.