Chaos biker advice (other than take Raptors instead)

[flintlocklaser]

Ok, since I am in a gluing state of mind (and weather is too crappy to prime), I thought I'd start finalizing my Purge list so my BTs will have someone to play with. For my fast attack element, I am looking at fielding a bike squad. Like I said, I know the conventional wisdom is that Raptors are better, but I have my reasons:

 

1) I like the chaos bike models,

2) Found 5 of them for about 40% off list price, and

3) They are in the mail even as we speak.

 

So it's bikes for this list. But I was wondering about how I should kit them out. Since the list is a Purge list, I figure it's either Icon of Nurgle or nothing - and while 50 points is expensive, T6 bikers do sound appealing. But is the investment worthwhile? Would I be better off with just an IoCG for deepstriking Termies onto? Also, what is going to be a better fit as far as special weapons go? I know melta-bikes make for nice vehicle hunters, but that T6 is making me think about giving them 2 plasmaguns and laughing at overheat results. And finally, I know everyone is sick of 5th edition 'futureproofing' questions, but with the rumored changes to powerfists would I be better served by giving the AspChamp a nice power weapon?

 

If it helps any of the analysis, the list I am thinking of will be a fair number of Termies (2 or maybe even 3 units), some mechanized Troops choices (either Purge CSMs or friendly DG), and 2 Vindies and an Obliterator unit for Heavy, although none of this is set in stone yet. Thanks in advance!

[teh_perfesser]

I'm not expert on bikes, but you have a unit there with 5 wounds coming in at about 285 points fully kitted out with two plasma guns, champ with fist and Nurgle icon.

 

The biggest problem I see with the unit is that you have a lot of points that would be very difficult to support. If you push them up too fast, your opponent with take them with heavies and save the Vindies for later, if you move them behind the Vindies, you aren't taking full advantage of the expensive bike unit. If you are pushing them around / through cover for DSing termies into the enemies flanks, you could do it for 100 points less with just the IoCG... but then they are worse than raptors (so you really have to take a more expensive unit).

 

As far as shooting goes, it's nice to get two plasmas in a mobile 5 man unit, but it's an awfully high cost for 1 turn of shooting. If you take advantage of mobility, you'll get ahead of the main bulk of the army and receive too much fire, but if you don't take advantage of the mobility, you've wasted a ton of points.

 

I personally think you should kit them out as ultimate speed bumps with just the Nurgle icon...

 

The nice thing about Chaos bikers is that you do get two attacks in close combat as opposed to the one attack that Imperial Marines get (if you think Imperial Marines bikers are getting bolt pistol and ccw in 5th edition, I think you're assuming far too much--see DA and BA codexes, believed to be 5th editioned already, with BP or CCW bikers). Add T6 and turbo-boosting and they are quite likely to get in close combat by turn two. It'll take a pretty good unit to drop the T6 bikes in cc... if you've deployed well, you'll assault a softer unit and either a counter assault or a consolidation avoidance move by another unit or two. If you are worried about wiping out your target and being left hanging in the open, you still have T6 helping keep you around.

 

If your opponent concentrates heavy fire on the bikes, your vindies will survive to march large blast marker death across the table. If your opponent ignores the bikes, they'll hold valuable units in cc or ravage backlines of weak melee troops. If your opponent drops the bikes with a turn of bolter fire, make the models into a beautiful bookshelf diorama...

 

 

Build 'em and play 'em. Keep 'em or drop 'em. At 40% off, you can't go wrong :lol:

[flintlocklaser]

Thanks perfesser, I appreciate it. I do feel very, very foolish that I didn't realize that CSM bikers get the +1 attack, but there it is on the wargear list plain as day. That does really make me reconsider adding any special weapons at all, and I do think I will just run them as a fast, tough CCW unit as you suggest. If my list works out in the direction I'm thinking it will, I should have no shortage of vehicle-killers. I suppose if I want to hedge my bets I could magnetize two of them as holding BPs, then I'd have the option to switch them out for meltas or PGs later if I felt like doing it. But yeah, having those 2 attacks is going to be nice.

 

Build 'em and play 'em. Keep 'em or drop 'em. At 40% off, you can't go wrong :unsure:

 

That's exactly why I decided to grab them! Thanks again.

[Lord Doyok]

whatever bike is expensive. so no matter what configuration you use, they are still expensive to include in a list. there's always time when you have to charge into terrain, and you roll one(s). my friend even rolled 4 ones with his ravenwing in an assault. that hurt so much.

 

but i must say bike is not all bad. you just have to know how to play them. it's difficult. i never quite master them. i bought 10 bikes, 2 convert into chaos Lord, 8 painted as Khorne bikers. But now the only bike i field is a chaos lord. you can try them 1st, learn them well. maybe you'll come to love them. Whatever, dont give them plasma guns.

[sonsoftaurus]

If I get around to doing a Nurgle list, I plan to include some bikers. Inefficient yes, but T6 is hard to pass up. Go for it, see how they work out for you. Fast enough should be able to limit the fire they take.

 

Don't have my book with me, but can take flamers, yes? If so, could make for a great anti-horde terror unit. Drive up 12", flame (or double flame), charge and watch the regular joes struggle to wound you. With flamers and bike-mounted bolters, might even cause enough wounds to ToF force a PF sarge/PK nob to make some saves.

[arkagl]

word of advise read this

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry1379151

the tactics section has some parts on bikes and bombing with bikes and it sound perfect for ur deep striking termis and obliterators and also daemon if ud want to do them too. use the icon of tzeentch when u turbo u get a 2+ invulnerable save.

[badguyshaveallthefun]

I would recommend not giving them plasma guns EVER. T6 won't help against overheats because it's an automatic wound, regardless of the toughness of the model. The reason it helps plague maries so much is because they get feel no pain, which bikers do not get (unfortunately) and bike models are too expensive to lose to an overheat. Plus, the plasma guns are not mounted on the bike itself and so you'll only be able to fire up to 12" with them unless you remain stationary, which is something you don't want to do with bikes. And I don't think you'll be able to charge after firing the plasma guns either. My understanding of that rule is that the weapon has to be bike mounted in order to count as stationary to fire, and in order to not be considered as firing rapid fire weaponry for the purposes of assaulting. Lame, to be sure, but that's how I interpret.

Basically, what I'm saying is don't take plasma guns, take meltas and flamers instead.

[angel of justice]

I agree take melta guns your fast enough to get into prime positions to use them, if you like the way they play make the sqaud bigger because looks like your paying a lot for that extra tougheness for just the few guys the more you get the cheaper the mark is per unit ie 25 for 4 or 20 for 5 if you understand what im getting at.

[teh_perfesser]

You loose the extra attack if you take the meltas. Taking the meltas really commits you to tank hunting. I'm not saying that tank hunting is the worst use for bikes, just an expensive use--five Nurgled tank hunters is about the same points cost as two twin-linked lascannon Predators... Flamers fit better in my eyes to soften troops you are assaulting in the same turn. You have to watch distance when pre-flaming though as smart model removal can deny assault if you're not careful.

 

Plasmas on bikers doesn't make sense as it turns the bike unit into troop shooters. I think a unit really needs the protection of close combat when they are moving unsupporting and unless you have an army consisting of only fast units, your bikes do end up pretty much unsupported. DSing termies or daemons can provide support, but that requires a bit of luck as you need them to turn up at the right time (with an assault focus, 'the right time' is while protected by close combat, which should be just about 'all the time' if things are going your way).

 

Bikes are tough to play effectively otherwise everybody would use them. Try'em with meltas, try 'em with plasma, try 'em with a powerfist, proxy 'em up to 10 models, try 'em with a Lord or Sorcerer on a bike... either you'll find something that works or you won't.

[Lord Humongous]

I say run them with the undivided icon. Anything that gets past the t5 3+ save / 3++ save is gonna bypass t6 3+/3++ nearly as easily, and 10 points a model is a LOT to pay for +1 toughness. A battle cannon, for example, treats them just the same.

If you had 8 or 10 bikes and made them a cornerstone of your army, maybe...

 

That being the case, the question is, what to do with them?

A unit of just 3, all with meltas (metla x 2, combi melta x 1) can be an affordable tank hunter / character killer / objective contest unit. Its fragile, so will spend a lot of time hiding if you want to use it as a scoring unit.

A unit of 5, with a couple flamers and a HTH champ is also pretty cheap, but getting close enough to use the flamers or getting them in HTH ties them down where they can be outnumbered (those darn big bases make this even easier) so I'd advise against that. Thne again, once in HtH, they are safe from battle cannons, and the T6 maybe pays off more.

 

I guess it depends what you face. I don't see T6 as THAT big a threat in HtH, but I play a "World Eaters" (kind of) list, with plentiful power fists.

[Vanger]

3 bikers + 2 meltas

 

Fast tankhunting unit, can be considered a "disposable asset" also good for late object grabing.

[Cale]

I put this together for a thread on Librarium. Hope it helps. ;)

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

Bikes: What are they good for?

 

The best way to think of Bikes is to think of Raptors, but with a bunch of upgrades piled on.

Raptors are simple. They fly across the board and charge stuff. Occasionally, they take a couple meltaguns and go shoot a tank, instead.

 

Bikes do essentially the same thing. They're also Fast Attack choices. The difference between them and Raptors is that, with Bikers, you're paying 12 points per guy for an extra toughness, the Turbo-boosters USR, and a twin-linked bolter.

 

Let's look at each of those advantages in turn:

 

Toughness five: This is pretty straight-forward. Against weapons between Strength 3 and 6, this upgrade makes your bikes more difficult to kill. It reduces the probability of your biker dying to a bolter shell by about a 33%--from 1/9 (11.1%) to 2/27 (7.47%). That means that Raptors will take half again (50%) more casualties from bolter fire than will bikes.

 

Twin-Linked Bolters: The biker's gun is an odd inclusion. For the most part, it replaces the Raptor's single bolt pistol shot before charging. It gets two shots, each with an 8/9 chance to hit instead of a 2/3 chance to hit, which ends up dealing more than twice as much damage as the Raptor's pistol. Remember that Bikers do still have both a pistol and a chainsword, so they have the same number of attacks in combat as Raptors do.

 

This sounds neat, but, really, who cares, right? Damage before a charge is almost insignificant compared to the damage you're likely to in combat. A good portion of the time, you don't want to shoot at all before you charge--you don't want to run the risk of your target breaking and fleeing, leaving you unable to charge and exposed in front of the enemy guns. So, what good are the bolters? Well, the answer is two-fold.

 

First off, sometimes those shots are important. Often they're not, but you'll be glad of them when you're about to charge a squad of Genestealers or Berserkers. While you don't don't take the shots about half the time, the other half you do. When your counter-charging assault specialists, those shots can seriously impact the outcome of the combat.

 

Secondly, they allow the bikes to contribute to your gunline. That's right, unlike the Raptors, these guys can put out 24" shots. It's not much, but it is better than the...nothing...that Raptors provide. When you're looking for a unit to provide some counter-assault for your gunline, it's a distinct bonus if that unit can also put out some reasonable long-range shots while it's waiting around for something to charge.

 

Turbo-Boosters: This is really a case of saving the best for last. Turbo-boosters are the main reason you should consider bringing bikes as opposed to Raptors. Raptors are pretty quick, but bikes are downright fast.

 

Think about what Raptors do. They move, move, move (and so on) until they assault. They almost never take shots. The only purpose behind their movement is to get to or stay in a good position from which to assault something. To this end, they can move up to 12" a turn.

 

Furthermore, Raptors have about even odds of getting an assault on the second turn. If they start up at the front of the DZ, right across from an enemy squad, and move straight forward, their total of 30" (12" move + 12" move + 6" assault) will probably get them into combat with something. Of course, it will also almost necessarily expose them to a world of shooty death on the way.

 

Bikes, on the other hand, have a 24" move. If they're out to assault the enemy, they're virtually guaranteed a second turn charge. Not only that, they've got movement to spare--which means movement to spend on hiding from all those incoming shots.

 

And, of course, who could forget the invulnerable save? As if doubling their speed wasn't enough, Turbo-boosters also make bikes significantly harder to kill.

 

In the end, Bikes are like Raptors who charge sooner and get there more safely. They not only fill an assault role and a counter-assault role, but, while waiting to counter assault, they can toss in their long range, accurate, and well-positioned bolter shots. Bikes have a lot going for them, so, the next question is:

 

What do I Bring?

 

Chaos bikes offer more of a challenge in terms of outfitting than do loyalist bikes because they have a lot more options, and several seem good. To start, we'll hit the basics.

 

1.) Give them meltas. As a general rule, bike squads should be equipped with meltas. Meltas are the best anti-tank weapons in the Chaos army--if you can get them into range. Luckily for you, bikes are really good at getting into range. Tossing a couple meltas into a bike squad increases their versatility a bunch and fortifies the army in a way that most Chaos lists very much need--by adding extra tank hunting capability.

 

**Have you noticed that? With lascannons becoming more and more expensive, reliable anti-tank has been relegated, more and more, to mobile melta-guns. Well, the bike has the best mobile melta-gun you're ever going to find. Put it to use.**

 

Flamers are a good second, being spectacular anti-infantry weapons on any platform that can bring them into range.

Plasma really has no place in a bike squad. Don't bother.

 

2.) Take Aspiring Champions. If these bikes are anything, they're expensive. The last thing you want is to watch them take a couple casualties, blow a test, and spend the rest of the game running away. Fifteen points is a marginal price for the extra leadership provided by the AC, and one you should pay just about every time.

 

Give them power-fists. Ultimately, bikes are a combat squad, not a shooty one, and if you're going to seek out combat, you should bring a powerfist. Every time. It increases your damage output significantly. It lets you charge monstrous creatures, walkers, and characters and pose a serious threat to anything on the board. Since you're taking an AC anyway, go ahead and shell out for the PF. It's worth it.

 

**An exception to this is the three bike, two melta squad. Taken solely for its tank-hunting ability, this 116 point unit probably isn't worth another 50 points of character-mounted powerfist.**

 

3.) Take six bikes. As a rule, six is about the number of bikers you should be looking at per squad. With an Aspiring Champion and two Melta Gunners, you can lose your three 'extra' bikers without dropping below half. You have enough numbers to be a threat, but retain a small enough footprint to hide.

 

4.) Take however many bikes you want. While six is probably the ideal number of bikers for a squad (except three in certain cases) squad size just isn't all that important. Ultimately, a squad of almost any number of bikers will perform, point for point, as well as a squad of almost any other number of bikers. Don't get too hung up on optimal squad size.

 

After designing a squad, the final question becomes:

 

What do I do with them?

 

The answer to this question depends on what type of squad you brought. As I alluded above, there are two types of bike squads:

 

Small squads, (three or four bikes) which are focused on bringing a pair of special weapons (either flamers or meltas) to bear on their favoured targets

 

-and-

 

Large squads, which are geared for combat and should include a powerfist.

 

If you have brought a small squad, the answer is simple. Run it over to whatever it's best at killing, and kill that thing.

 

For example, if you have meltas, turbo-boost towards a tank (try to stay hidden, of course, and out of assault range as best you can) until you are close enough to move and shoot the tank. Repeat this until your enemy is out of tanks or your bikes are dead.

 

**Remember that these squads are designed to be small and cheap--i.e. throwaways. You want them to stay alive until they can complete the task for which you brought them, but don't get hung up on keeping them alive. That's not what you brought them for. Use them aggressively.**

 

**This sort of squad is also useful for objective snagging. If you have a squad with Meltas and there are no enemy tanks, just hold the squad back. On your last turn, turbo-boost them on top of an objective. While they're sacrificial units, don't go sacrificing them for nothing--If it's not obvious what they should be trying to kill, save them for an important moment later in the game.**

 

 

Large squads are more complicated. On the one hand, they're a bunch of points that you can't leave sitting and doing nothing. On the other hand, you can't afford to have them killed for nothing--they're a bunch of points, after all.

 

Luckily, these guys are pretty dedicated close combat units. The decisions you make for them are basically the same decisions you make for your Raptors, and we're all familiar with those, right? No? Well, here's a rundown, in case you're not:

 

First, decide whether your opponent is shooty or assaulty. This entails two things.

First, look across the board. Are more of his points spent on units who do significantly more damage with shooting attacks? Has he spent more on units that rely on close combat to deal damage?

 

Second, check your opponent's army against your own. If you were to both do nothing but stand and shoot, who would have the advantage? If you were both to do nothing but charge into the middle of the table and duke it out in a big melee, who would come out on top?

 

By considering these two things (i.e. has my opponent built a shooty army or an assaulty one, and is it more shooty or more assaulty than mine) you should be able to quickly decide on the right course of action for your bikes.

 

If your opponent is likely to out-assault you, hold your bikes back as counter-assaulters. Take shots with them (but be careful to hide them from whatever fire support your opponent has--keeping these guys alive is more important than keeping your gun-line guys alive) and wait for your opponent's assaulters to get close. When they do, charge them with your bikes to keep them from assaulting your gunline troops.

 

**If you're counter-assaulting, always shoot your bikers' guns before charging. You're not worried about them fleeing--in fact, fleeing would be just fine. Your goal, primarily, is to keep them from assaulting the rest of your army. Scaring them off accomplishes that.**

 

If your opponent is likely to outshoot you, use your bikes as assaulters. Use their Turbo-boosters to get across the board and into combat as quickly as possible. Their goal should be to disrupt the enemy shooting as much as possible and as quickly as possible. Getting them into combat and keeping them there is your primary concern.

 

**If you're using them to assault, you usually won't want to shoot before charging. If you shoot your charge target, it might break and run away. This is very bad for you, because it tends to leave your precious assaulters staring down the barrels of your opponent's guns. Only shoot before charging if you're not certain that you will win combat against the squad you're charging. Things like guardsmen, firewarriors, even crisis suits and marine squads (those without power fists) should not be shot at--they should just be charged.**

 

**Consider two other things every time you're about to assault:

 

Could my shots kill enough enemies that, after casualties are removed, I will no longer have range to the squad? If the answer is yes, it's probably best to not shoot.

 

Is the enemy Fearless (or close enough?) If so, you don't have to worry about them breaking and fleeing, and you should probably go ahead and shoot them.**

 

 

A note on Icons

Bike squads, like most things in the new Chaos Codex, have access to the five chaos Icons. All of these contain useful upgrades for Bikers, but only a couple are ones you should seriously consider. There are three catagories, really.

 

First, you have the Icon of Chaos Glory. It's cheap and it buffs your leadership. You're never going to go wrong taking the IoCG on a bike squad--even a very small one.

 

Second, you have the close combat Icons: those of Slaanesh and Khorne. Slaanesh buffs your initiative--which is nice against some things and useless against others--and Khorne gives you extra attacks, which is basically good (though not necessary) against everything. More importantly, perhaps, the IoK helps out your powerfist, while the IoS doesn't. If you're considering one of these two, pay the extra ten points for the IoK (unless you're trying to stick with a Slaanesh theme for the purposes of fluff).

 

**Note that, even with an IoS, you should still take a powerfist. I know that taking those I:5 power weapon swings is funny, but the powerfist is still better.**

 

**Also note that you shouldn't play either of these in a small special weapon squad. Both, basically, should be reserved for big combatty squads.**

 

Finally, you have the two defensive Icons: those of Tzeentch and Nurgle. Personally, I'm not a fan of either, in general. Their defensive buffs are kinda minor and their cost is very high. On the other hand, bikers are expensive and both make particularly good platforms for these mark's abilities.

 

With the IoN, your bikers are T:6--which definitely falls into the Very High catagory.

 

With the IoTz, your bikers have a 2+ invulnerable save when Turbo-boosting, which definitely puts them into the Nigh-Impregnable catagory. (The 5+ invulnerable in combat is neat, too, but not nearly as impressive as the other bit).

 

Ultimately, both of these are very expensive, and I don't really recommend either. Certainly, neither is appropriate on small bike squads. Both are probably worthwhile on larger bike squads, but they're not top picks--I'd only suggest either if you're looking for a certain flavour of army.

 

Ultimately, this leaves either the Icon of Chaos Glory being a good choice for any squad and the Icon of Khorne being good for big, combatty squads.

 

In Conclusion:

Bikes are like Raptors that are harder to kill, get into combat more quickly and safely, and put out significantly better shots both right before a charge and while waiting around to counter-charge.

 

In addition, the Turbo-boosters rule makes small bike squads much better (than virtually everything else) at delivering short-ranged special weapons (Meltas and Flamers) to their intended targets.

 

Most bike squads should be considered close combat units and treated accordingly.

 

Bike squads built as special-weapon-delivery-mechanisms should be as cheap as possible, and they should be played with their purpose in mind (i.e. focusing on delivering their guns over self-preservation.)

 

Approached properly, Bikes make a perfectly acceptable (and quite possibly superiour) alternative to Raptors, and serve as the Chaos Marines' premier (on a guy-for-guy basis) assault troops and weapon specialists.

 

Good luck and Happy Hunting,

-Cale

[Megalodon]

Bravo Brother Cale, that is a very well written article! It sums up my feeling on bikes perfectly!

[Muskie]

I was an early exponent on the 3 man two mealta gun squad. I think it is more cost effective with no marks or the Mark of Chaos Undivided if you want...

 

I haven't tried a squad of Nurgle bikers yet, but a single character on a bike seems to be pretty bad ass. I'll be bringing that conversion to a battlefield near me (again) real soon. I almost tried it today, but opted for Slim my Deamon Prince of Nurgle instead.

[Roultox]

I prefer 2 flamers and a power weapon. Two reasons, they charge in after troops and make big use of that T5, second reason they can mutilate any troop that does not have a high str value and get away with it with decent rolling. Two flamers in a fast unit will be more effective then a whirlwind attack, and for fast attack if your using them for tank hunting then your spending 150+ points essentialy for 2 meltaguns. Where you could pay a bit more and get a lascannon predator.

 

Speed=Melee

Range=Anti Tank

 

At least thats how it works in my book.

[sonsoftaurus]

Interesting thoughts Cale!

 

Finally, you have the two defensive Icons: those of Tzeentch and Nurgle. Personally, I'm not a fan of either, in general. Their defensive buffs are kinda minor and their cost is very high. On the other hand, bikers are expensive and both make particularly good platforms for these mark's abilities.

 

With the IoN, your bikers are T:6--which definitely falls into the Very High catagory.

 

With the IoTz, your bikers have a 2+ invulnerable save when Turbo-boosting, which definitely puts them into the Nigh-Impregnable catagory. (The 5+ invulnerable in combat is neat, too, but not nearly as impressive as the other bit).

 

Ultimately, both of these are very expensive, and I don't really recommend either. Certainly, neither is appropriate on small bike squads. Both are probably worthwhile on larger bike squads, but they're not top picks--I'd only suggest either if you're looking for a certain flavour of army.

 

Really, bikers essentially already get the benefits of Icon of Nurgle (toughness boost compared to T4) and a version of Icon of Tzeentch (inv save if turboboosting). If Raptors could take multiple icons, if you factor in the costs of a theoretical Raptor squad with IoN and IoT added in, the cost starts coming pretty close to bikes.

[Muskie]

I prefer 2 flamers and a power weapon. Two reasons, they charge in after troops and make big use of that T5, second reason they can mutilate any troop that does not have a high str value and get away with it with decent rolling. Two flamers in a fast unit will be more effective then a whirlwind attack, and for fast attack if your using them for tank hunting then your spending 150+ points essentialy for 2 meltaguns. Where you could pay a bit more and get a lascannon predator.

 

Speed=Melee

Range=Anti Tank

 

At least thats how it works in my book.

 

You're stuck thinking about tanks. With that much speed you can appear somewhere unexpectedly and melt a character model. The targeting rules keep changing, but I know unexpected mealta guns scare people. They see and plan for the lascannons. They forget about the mealtas in the hustle and bustle of a battle.

 

I like the flamer idea, but I've long used flamers and I got bolters to kill whatever a flamer can kill, I need guns that kill stuff bolters can't. The Power Sword is fine against power armor but useless against tanks and dreads. Mealtas can kill them. I am so poor at killing tanks that one GT army I made had every squad being able to frighten tanks through mealta guns and mealta bombs. Now there are a lot more ways to get heavy weapons and I've got a lot more stuff painted and hopefully soon will have enough income to afford me the ability to buy stuff.

 

I did the math and the cheapest lascannon is a single obliterator. But since I suck I like my lascannons twin-linked. One of the dreads I will build next is just a twin-linked lascannon, no missile launcher or other upgrades. I'm even tempted to mount a twin-linked lascannon on a defiler. Landraiders are so big and if they move you can't fire all its weapons. That said it is penciled into my next tournament army. Don't tell Barret. :-)

[Roultox]

I stated my favorite being ranged to take out tanks. Because its ranged, you dont have to buy melee upgrades for the unit(s) in question. If your close, and stuck between melting a character or tank, and charging a 10 man unit of guardsmen/marines the better option is to go after the units and get stuck in combat and not be fired upon. Yet, your still stuck wondering if you should have shot down that character.

 

In reverse, if you can dual-flame a unit, charge it when its weak, and wipe it, then use the extra D6" to consolodate into another unit, then you have a chance to keep another unit tied up in the long run. I dont like plasma for spendy units like others have mentioned. So, if a flamer can pack up to about 5 top 6 models under the template (of a 12" moving bike, thats not hard) you can kill the same number of marines as a single rapid firing plasma gun could. I forget the math, but its close. Cheaper, and no risk to your model. The flip side being they dont harm tanks other then the krak grenades they come with. Krak should be enough if you hit the rear of a stationary vehicle anyways, and they come with it standard, on top of the combi-bolters you can pummel av10 with as well. Flamers give an edge over models in cover on top of all that.

 

In various situations, I have had to hold back a flamer to make sure I dont kill everything before I charge it, to get the wipe out bonuses of a D6" consolodation move. Moving so that the second flamer couldnt shoot with a model in front of it. (for those that would argue you must fire everything, its a habit)

 

Not saying the other choices are bad by any means. I just prefer cheaper raptors for the twin melta power fist tank hunting, or some teleporting terminators with three combi-meltas for the quick punch and bust. My bikes have a very different role compared to those two choices, one of those choices could cheaply-replace the bikes that fall just like raptors to str 7+ ap3 or better weaponry. Considering their speed, those are the core weapons aimed at them if they were used for tank hunting, if they cant get into combat. Cheaper raptors for the same job especially for terrain hopping with smaller bases is quite a gap between the bikes and how both units perform. Higher toughness asks for melee, as where most lower strength attacks take place, pity on the strength 3 models that get stuck with them.

 

Bikes have a place, and if you consider their daemon/terminator homer bombing potential stacked with that, you can clarify which roles suit which units better if you consider where the extra points spent are used in comparison to the variety of weapons and strength they face often in shooting and melee. Bikes last as long as raptors when they dont turbo boost against most weapons that are tempted to fire at them, since they cost more then terminators we buy. Raptors got stepped up to being cheaper and numerous, so now bikes have their role more clearly laid out for us.

 

My experience behind bikes under the current rules, they seem to suit me best as infantry hunters. Even though they can boom 24" around cover the first turn with 3 models and 2 melta guns, they still die similar to marines, they're no tripple land speeder unit. Make use of the melee stats speeders dont come with, and you can find more points returned in the long run.

[flintlocklaser]

Wow, I thought this topic had died a natural death, and then I see there's lots more good discussion in here for me to mull over. Thanks again for all the suggestions/advice/tactica! I really appreciate all the help.