Can someone create a Warptime Poll?

[Joah from Alberta]

I dunno how to create a poll, maybe I don't have privs. But I'd be interested in seeing how many people play Warp Time of rerolling only misses vs to rerolling the whole shebang.

 

 

Nihm Edit: here you go. :(

[Cale]

Um...why would you only re-roll misses? The rules for the power clearly state that you can re-roll rolls to hit and rolls to wound.

[TheDarkApostle]

Um...why would you only re-roll misses? The rules for the power clearly state that you can re-roll rolls to hit and rolls to wound.

I think he means what came up in the great discussion that was up in the air a while ago whether you re-roll only the failed attacks with it or if you re-roll all attacks hit or not.

 

TDA

[Cale]

Ah. I see.

 

I only re-roll failed rolls. "...May re-roll all..." just doesn't translate into "must re-roll either all or none," no matter how much torque you apply.

[Brother Vyze]

If you vote I do......

 

Warptime says that "you may re-roll all to-hit rolls.....". It does not say that you may re-roll all misses, just all (both hits and misses).

 

If you vote I don't......

 

Your right

[Lord Humongous]

In this case, "all" is a synonym for "any". "Misses" are a sub-category of "all". "May" means you can select a sub-category (or not) as you wish.

 

Hell, since it says "all", does that mean you re-roll the enemies dice as well?

[Teg]

I haven't finished my CSM army yet, but when I do, I will (re-roll only misses). It's more in line with GW's similar rules, re-rolling an entire hand is a rarity in 40k (I can't actually think of a specific example of it!).

 

Think about it: if you get equal-or-above average rolls, you won't choose re-roll everything. That would mean that a lot of the time, this power does nothing, and the rest of the time it won't give huge improvements. I don't think that is powerful enough to cost as much as it does (in comparison to the other powers), so I say re-roll any, not all.

[Sarrat]

If you vote I do......

 

Warptime says that "you may re-roll all to-hit rolls.....". It does not say that you may re-roll all misses, just all (both hits and misses).

 

If you vote I don't......

 

Your right

 

It also does *NOT* say "you MUST reroll all...", the original thread was yet another attempt at using RAW to violate the spirit of the game and gimp someone elses list. I for one am greatful that my gaming circle doesnt use somantics to screw each other. For the love of god people, use some common sense and good sportsmanship.

[the jeske]

well I didnt vote because I dont what voting is good for here . Either you go RAW the way its played on tournaments [what kind of a makes some of the lists today pretty freaky to play with] or free for all house rule it . there is also the problem of translations . you UK and US people constantly have problems with wordings . Now try to imagine people who do translations of dexs [and trust me getting GW say how the stuff works or how they think it should work is a horror I wouldnt visit on my mother in law] in German , Spanish ,Polish or Russian . Pure hardcore . mainly because the same words or even whole rules written in different dexs work [for GW] in a different way .

 

For example . When people here were doing the chaos dex translation [i mean an official one], they asked GW about the wording on lash and how should it work [you know does keep formation etc] . And among a few interesting things we were informed that units moved by lash have stay in the same formation as they before the lash was used . Nice on right . Now imagine a chaos player using lash on unit of gaunts [20 to be precise] that circles around the whole nid army . Kudos to them that will keep the models in same formations [also on tournaments it means your kind of stalling the game , if it take 10min to move one unit in a legal way ].

I dont like to say , because I do believe in RAW and playing be the rules , but in the transition time between two editions and GW being really sloppy with a few dexs [bA am looking at you] its impossible . So I say , play any way you like and if you go to a tournament ask about rulings before everything starts .

[Maladon]

I play it the way I read it, rerolling misses. simply put.

[Joah from Alberta]

I wonder if someday every human language will be translated into one great computer game language. No more arguments, if something doesn't work, it'll crash and the great computer will fix it. If it doesn't work one way then it's never supposed to work that way.

 

I suppose in all of our gaming there is a beauty in the flawed perception of humankind.

[the jeske]

well magic has a very good judge and rules test . I wish GW had a check and rules team like WotC have .

[chaos strong]

I play it the way I read it, rerolling misses. simply put.

 

 

Not to be a dick, but then you read it INCORRECTLY, it doesnt say anything like reroll misses.

Techniclly it should be played exactly like written till someone says something about it. THAT said, if u played like that techniclly all warhammer fantasy players could screw Tzeentch players by saying TECHNICLY you dont have spells cause they arent written exactly in the explanation as they are in the rolling for section.

 

If someone is a complete dick and doesnt let you play it the way it SHOULD be played, instead of the way it is written, you prolly shouldnt be playing against them anyways :D

[Brother Nihm]

If you vote I do......

 

Warptime says that "you may re-roll all to-hit rolls.....". It does not say that you may re-roll all misses, just all (both hits and misses).

 

If you vote I don't......

 

Your right

 

It also does *NOT* say "you MUST reroll all...", the original thread was yet another attempt at using RAW to violate the spirit of the game and gimp someone elses list. I for one am greatful that my gaming circle doesnt use somantics to screw each other. For the love of god people, use some common sense and good sportsmanship.

No, the original thread had it's roots in a misunderstanding, stop putting more into it than there is.

[Aarhus]

In this case, "all" is a synonym for "any". "Misses" are a sub-category of "all". "May" means you can select a sub-category (or not) as you wish.

 

First of all, you're misinterpreting "all" being a synonym of "any". Both 'any' and 'all' have vastly different meanings.

 

Say you're on the streets, and you need a lighter; you can say "Do any of you have a lighter?" or you can say "do all of you have a lighter?"

 

Or how about "...I do it all the time" compared to "...I do it any time"

Both sentence fragments are similar in nature, but have vastly different meanings. If you can't see the differences in the above example, your grammar and/or English teacher didn't do his/her job.

 

"Misses" are indeed a sub-category of "all". But that's exactly it. It's a sub-category. A sub-category is something different in nature than the original category altogether.

 

The only part you have correct is "may". However, you have it in the incorrect context when dealing with Warptime.

 

Warptime starts with "you may..." and then proceeds with the rest of the ruling, and does not change from 'may' to 'must' or any other permutation, and therefore, The Psyker may re-roll all misses and wounds.

 

Hell, since it says "all", does that mean you re-roll the enemies dice as well?

 

This interpretation is also incorrect, since it says "the psyker may..." etc.

 

Now, one can be over-literal and say "Well, how can my psyker roll the dice? He's inanimate and is therefore physically inable to roll the dice!", however, the re-roll is limited to "The Psyker".

 

 

Now, like I said in the thread I started a while ago, I believe that with Warptime, you may re-roll all misses. You can ALSO re-roll all wounds.

 

 

It's different than the Librarian power Veil of Time.

 

You can use it in both turns (advantage)

However, you must re-roll all (disadvantage).

 

 

Now, how many times will this thread run around in a circle before we're going back over covered ground in the previous topic?

 

 

Cheers,

Lawrence.

[Joah from Alberta]

Dude, it's a vote, not a debate.

[Cale]

Sorry, Joah, but I have to toss this in there. After, I'll shut up.

 

All is not the synonym of any. That is certainly true. Luckily, it's not the end of the discussion.

 

The phrase, "the psycher may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound," is not identical in meaning to the phrase, "the psycher may either re-roll every roll to hit and every roll to wound or he may re-roll nothing."

 

Just as all and any are not synonyms, neither is a synonym of every. That is the claim which is necessary to support the position that some of you are espousing, and upon inspection we can see that it is ludicrous.

 

Imagine that you have a plate of donuts in front of you, and I say, "you may eat all of the donuts."

 

Am I saying that you must either eat every single donut or none at all? No. Of course not. That would be ludicrous (and this entire argument, by extension, is ludicrous).

 

I am giving you permission to pick and choose which donuts you eat, and removing any limit from the number of donuts you may eat save that you may not eat more than there are.

 

The phrase, "you may re-roll all rolls to hit," is functionally identical to the phrase, "you may re-roll any rolls to hit." The words all and any are not synonyms, but those two phrases, in their entirety, serve the same function. Neither serves the same function as the phrase, "you may either re-roll every roll to hit or no rolls to hit," which is what people like Aarhus are erroneously claiming.

 

With a modicum of thought this should become obvious to any reasonably competent student of English, and that really should settle the question right there.

[Aarhus]

Imagine that you have a plate of donuts in front of you, and I say, "you may eat all of the donuts."

 

Am I saying that you must either eat every single donut or none at all? No. Of course not.

 

Actually, you did say "...all of the (doughnuts)".

 

All is a quantifier, and since we're dealing with a game with a quantifiable number of dice, we need quantifiers (as well as qualifiers) for our rules.

 

 

I know you guys don't like the interpretation. I don't either.

This is why GW needs to hire spelling/grammar checkers.

 

All is a very concrete word in the English language. If you guys -really- doubt me on the meaning of "all", you can check out Merriam-Webster's dictionary for yourself.

 

 

@Joah, I know you (and many other forum goers) are frustrated with a heated debate caused by vague/easily-misinterpreted rules, but we have to hammer these things out so that the majority of players are playing with one rule-set (even if it is undesirable).

 

 

Back on topic, I voted other.

 

I see the need to go RAW, but I also believe that there are some mutually exclusive parts to the ruling, therefore, I voted "other", for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

 

 

Cheers,

Lawrence.

[Brother Vyze]

It seems this has gotten out of hand. I could continue this debate, but the opinions of the Moderators say otherwise. I hope we can just agree to wait untill an FAQ is published before we settle on the correct use of the power.

[Joah from Alberta]

Well, I'm pretty good at crunching logic (having played MTG since buying revised starters for $7 ea), and yeah, I dig I'm in.

 

I think we're trying to psychoanalyze the context of the written rule beyond what the spirit of the word was intended by the authors.

 

In all fairness, we should gather as much (unbiased:) evidence before passing any judgment. The flavour text goes on to mention:

 

"The psyker [the model] surrounds himself with /warptime/ and grants the target [inferred psyker] the opportunity to place his attacks with supernatural precision."

 

I believe the keyword is "place". The psyker is placing his attacks by virtue of warptime. He's not replacing them, nor is he rewinding spacetime, he's just using warptime to be supernatural about his attacks. Which opens up another can of words: are attacks limited to the assault phase or can the psyker reroll shooting and other psyker abilities as well.

 

In pertaining with the two sentences that follow in describing the Warp Time game rule, clearly the author had foremost in mind that the power can be used at the start of any player turn. He also goes on to end the rule by stating once again that the power is for the entirety of that player's turn. It's a pretty weak paragraph. I believe the author was somewhat pent on driving the point that this power can be used on any player turn and in his pinhead fervor failed to word the precise mechanics of the rule. I would guess that he intended to say that the psyker may reroll all [instances] of rolls to hit and wound for the duration of any player turn. "All instances" of rolls to hit and wound would be the closest probability to tying up the beginning and end of this psucker rule.

 

Finally, a famous quote: "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!'" -- Late great Charlton Heston

[Maladon]

I play it the way I read it, rerolling misses. simply put.

 

 

Not to be a dick, but then you read it INCORRECTLY, it doesnt say anything like reroll misses.

Technically it should be played exactly like written till someone says something about it. THAT said, if u played like that techniclly all warhammer fantasy players could screw Tzeentch players by saying TECHNICLY you dont have spells cause they arent written exactly in the explanation as they are in the rolling for section.

 

If someone is a complete dick and doesnt let you play it the way it SHOULD be played, instead of the way it is written, you prolly shouldnt be playing against them anyways ;)

That's the way the I read it Rule as intended not the idiotic read to much into it crap like others. Just cause the translation is wrong, doesn't mean people need to be rules a**holes about it.... and if they are, I'll tell them Frak Off and never play them.

 

GW really needs proof reading for after translations, this crap is getting old....

 

 

RAI- FTW!

[Sarrat]

No, the original thread had it's roots in a misunderstanding, stop putting more into it than there is.

 

Okay Nihm, that was just my interpretation of the original misunderstanding, but you're the boss :o

[darth_giles]

This reminds me of a line in WFB- something about "a re-roll means all the dice are re-rolled at once, and you must accept the new results, regardless if they're better or worse." Mind you, I haven't played WFB in forEVAR, so it might not be in the current edition.

 

Note that there's no such rule in 40k, and there hopefully never will be. Every time I've played, its always been "sort out the misses and re-roll them." Even with the dopes who still insist that figures who deep strike or are summoned into difficult terrain are lost, despite said rule not having been in 40k since before 3rd edition.

[Maladon]

I asked the question about that to both GW and the tourniment manager about warptime. and here's the reponse-quit reading into the rules, the intent was for re rolling the misses, and you are looking for advantages(grey areas) in the rules to screw your opponents!

 

Same with the BA not having access points to their vehicles.

[Contaminus]

Imagine that you have a plate of donuts in front of you, and I say, "you may eat all of the donuts."

 

Am I saying that you must either eat every single donut or none at all? No. Of course not.

 

Actually, you did say "...all of the (doughnuts)".

 

Actually, it could be interpreted either way. By saying 'You may eat all of the donuts' you could either be saying 'You may eat every one of the donuts or none at all' or 'You may eat all of the donuts at a maximum', in other words saying 'I am giving you permission to eat every single one of these donuts. Therefore, if you eat half of them, that is fine. Since by telling you you could eat them all. I also told you that you could eat that half'.

 

Anyway, it's fairly obvious what GW meant by the phrase even if they didn't write it correctly in order to convey their ideas. It's up to the person using the Warptime and those that he's playing against to decide whether they want to go by RAW or RAI.

 

My two cents.